Why?

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Clint
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Post by Clint »

God impressed upon a man to daily push on a large rock in front of his home. He pushed on the rock six days a week for three years. After three years of pushing on the rock he began to be discouraged. Listening to the voice of the one who discourages, he complained he had pushed and pushed until his body was as hard as the rock but he had never been able to move the rock. He was ready to quit. An angel spoke to him saying, “God didn’t say to move the rock, He only said to push on it".

Do we spend too much time trying to figure out why God is asking us to do things when we should just do what He impresses upon us to do?
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RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

Could it be because sometimes the reward and lessons are not in the goal itself but in the working toward the goal? :confused:
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Post by koan »

I think because, despite our beliefs, there is no guarantee that we will survive death in any form we need results that show we have accomplished something. It is hard to work diligently at something without knowing why because if it never made sense we have a fear that we will die without ever having made a difference.

(Ernest Becker would likely back me up :D )
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Post by theia »

Clint;521541 wrote: God impressed upon a man to daily push on a large rock in front of his home. He pushed on the rock six days a week for three years. After three years of pushing on the rock he began to be discouraged. Listening to the voice of the one who discourages, he complained he had pushed and pushed until his body was as hard as the rock but he had never been able to move the rock. He was ready to quit. An angel spoke to him saying, “God didn’t say to move the rock, He only said to push on it".

Do we spend too much time trying to figure out why God is asking us to do things when we should just do what He impresses upon us to do?


Yes, and although I'd never thought about it before, I do think we spend too much time on the whys. How liberating it would be just to do and not ask the question. That thought cheers me :-6
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Post by Shweet tatersalad »

Stupid is as stupid does.:thinking:
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Post by Accountable »

I'm an asker. I want to know why. Generally, if I don't see the point in the effort I won't try as hard. It always made me uneasy when a subordinate of mine would follow me blindly, never questioning.



That's not to say I will sit and obstinately do nothing until I get my answer, but that I will spend considerable energy trying to figure it out as I work.
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Post by Clint »

Accountable;521803 wrote: I'm an asker. I want to know why. Generally, if I don't see the point in the effort I won't try as hard. It always made me uneasy when a subordinate of mine would follow me blindly, never questioning.



That's not to say I will sit and obstinately do nothing until I get my answer, but that I will spend considerable energy trying to figure it out as I work.


I’m like you. I’m constantly trying to figure out, why. I need the answer and I need to be able to say I have it. I might push on the rock the day I believed I was told to start pushing on it but I’d quit unless I knew why or at least thought I did. I too often question, analyze, doubt and quit.

I watch people who don’t question and just do things out of loyalty and faith with amazement and respect. I need to question and learn but I think I should to do more without needing the reason first. People who do seem so much more content and they seem to enjoy life more.

I don’t know if I can though. :thinking:
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Post by Accountable »

Clint;522450 wrote: I’m like you. I’m constantly trying to figure out, why. I need the answer and I need to be able to say I have it. I might push on the rock the day I believed I was told to start pushing on it but I’d quit unless I knew why or at least thought I did. I too often question, analyze, doubt and quit.



I watch people who don’t question and just do things out of loyalty and faith with amazement and respect. I need to question and learn but I think I should to do more without needing the reason first. People who do seem so much more content and they seem to enjoy life more.



I don’t know if I can though. :thinking:
:yh_rotfl We're even questioning why we need to ask why!!
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Post by Ted »

On the other hand we may be doing what we think God wants us to do and be following our own thoughts and not God's.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Gannet101 »

God often tests people. Forget the rock example, here's a real example:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and cleaved the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

Gen 22:7 And Isaac spoke unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Gen 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.



God knew he wasn't planning on allowing Abraham to kill Isaac, but God had to know if Abraham feared God enough and trusted God enough to go through with it.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

So, when someone asks you: What is the WHOLE DUTY OF MAN? You will say

1) fear God

2) keep his commandments

Some people say, "oh, you're not supposed to FEAR God, just `reverence' him"...

NO.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The same fear we have of those who might "kill our body", we are to have even a greater and similar fear of God, who can kill "both body and soul". Jesus clearly feared the Father, as should we. He went to the cross out of love for his Father and out of fear of his Father, because if he did not accomplish the salvation of all mankind, through his crucifixion, his life would have been a waste. Jesus feared God, we should fear God with fear and trembling, as well as rejoice. He is merciful, but he is also the God which smites.
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KB.
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Post by KB. »

Matthew 17:20

I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, "Move from here to there" and it will move.
Life ain't linear.
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Post by Ted »

That story of Isaac and his being sacrificed is a rather dreadful story which hardly reflects the God who said the greatest commandment was one of love.

I'm often puzzled as to why God who is all seeing, all knowing etc. has any need to "test" anyone. He already knows the outcome. Why is there any need for this test?

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

God tests for the same reason you tested students when you were teaching. When you test they are requied to study and grow. The more they grow the tougher the tests get. Abraham's faith grew as a result of the test.
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

I can't buy that. God has no need to test.

As far as the Isaac story goes I rather doubt its historicity. If it was an historic story look at the hell that Isaac went through. No this is not from God.

In fact according to "The One Volume Commentary" the story is a myth created to show why animal sacrifice was better than human sacrifice.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Accountable »

Hmm... picking up on Clint's thread, if I understand it, maybe it's not that God needs to test but that we need to be tested. Maybe it helps us grow?



That lines up well with my idea that Our Father is much like Our Dad, but it pushes somewhat against my understanding of free will.
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Post by Clint »

Ted;672105 wrote: Clint:-6

I can't buy that. God has no need to test.

As far as the Isaac story goes I rather doubt its historicity. If it was an historic story look at the hell that Isaac went through. No this is not from God.

Shalom

Ted:-6


Okay...must be from Satan. So why didn't God stop him?

If it didn't happen and the story is some man's dream or something, why does God allow such a harmful story to be retold?
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Post by Clint »

Accountable;672112 wrote: Hmm... picking up on Clint's thread, if I understand it, maybe it's not that God needs to test but that we need to be tested. Maybe it helps us grow?



That lines up well with my idea that Our Father is much like Our Dad, but it pushes somewhat against my understanding of free will.


Yes. That God allows us to be tested for our own good lines up with my understanding of Him today. We still have free will because He allows the testing. I tend to say He is doing the testing because He allows it. I probably go too far with that.
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

First of all Satan is a very human creation to explain the evil in the world. There is no such entity.

Secondly God has nothing to do with the story being told. However, as a myth it does present some truth. It is of course the ancient view of God and not consistent with the life or example of the One in whom we see the manifestation of God, Jesus of Nazareth.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;672119 wrote: Clint:-6

First of all Satan is a very human creation to explain the evil in the world. There is no such entity.

Secondly God has nothing to do with the story being told. However, as a myth it does present some truth. It is of course the ancient view of God and not consistent with the life or example of the One in whom we see the manifestation of God, Jesus of Nazareth.

Shalom

Ted:-6


Okay, say Satan is really another word for evil. Is evil too great for God to overcome?
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

I don't think evil is too hard to overcome. However, to what does the word evil refer? One might use the word sin but even that is difficult to describe.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;672126 wrote: Clint:-6

I don't think evil is too hard to overcome. However, to what does the word evil refer? One might use the word sin but even that is difficult to describe.

Shalom

Ted:-6


If it isn't "too hard to overcome" why doesn't God just do it?
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

I think it's called free will.

But we still need a definition with examples.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

What one may call evil or sinful another might see nothing wrong with.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;672129 wrote: Clint:-6

I think it's called free will.

But we still need a definition with examples.

Shalom

Ted:-6


So why does He give us free will?
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

An interesting question. It raises another question. Do we want to be automatons or do we want to live in freedom with justice and kindness? I certainly can't answer for anyone else but my choice is freedom as it would appear to be God's choice as well.

That being said you still haven't responded to my question concerning evil and sin.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;672126 wrote: Clint:-6

I don't think evil is too hard to overcome. However, to what does the word evil refer? One might use the word sin but even that is difficult to describe.

Shalom

Ted:-6


Sin results from the darkness of evil. Light keeps us from falling over things in the darkness.
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

You have told me where you think evil and sin come from but you have not told me what either one is.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;672613 wrote: Clint:-6

You have told me where you think evil and sin come from but you have not told me what either one is.

Shalom

Ted:-6


I didn't think you needed to know.:D
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Post by Gannet101 »

Evil is the opposite of love.

Love is the absence of evil.

Even as light is the absence of darkness. Light illumines the darkness, even as love crushes evil.

If you drew a van de graf chart, with the overlapping circles, you would have no overlap between love and evil, and no overlap between Christ and the prince of this world.

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

You lead a church, but do not know what evil is?

Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him,

**** Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? ****

Evil is not feeding the hungry. Evil is not giving clothes to the naked. Evil is the refusal to love as God has commanded us to do; to love HIM and to love THEM, our neighbors. And who is our neighbor?

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.

Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor?

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?

Luk 10:37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Go and do likewise: that's love. To fail to go and do likewise as the good samaritan is evil.

Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him,

Art thou a master of Israel,

and knowest

not

these

things?
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Post by Gannet101 »

You think you're wise and you think you sound all philosophical, saying "what is evil"? When example after example of evil is given to you with people like Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini and Pol Pot and the rebels in Africa which commit genocide and rape and that, of the defenseless.

How could you lead a church, if you know not what evil is? Have you not known what love is? When it stretched its arms out, bleeding, on the cross? When love manifested itself in the flesh and shined its light out upon us, did you not catch a glimpse of it as love hung there on the cross bleeding for you?

There was no evil in him. We sinners commit evil frequently. Know ye not what evil is? It is not philosophical to debate such obvious matters. If you want to know what evil is, ask a worker who has been denied his wages. Ask a beggar who has been denied food by the rich. And you ask, what is evil...

And if there were no satan, who do you think Jesus defeated on the cross? Jesus defeated sin on the cross. Jesus defeated death on the cross. Jesus defeated satan on the cross. Jesus defeated the world on the cross. Jesus defeated the flesh on the cross. Jesus defeated evil, on, the, cross. As he suffered and died in accordance with the will of God the Father, he crushed evil under his heel.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Evil is that this which defiles a person when they do it.
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Post by Ted »

Gannet:-6

You have told me what evil is not. You have given me examples of the results of evil and sin but you have not told me what evil is except to say it is the opposite of love. None of these are a definition.

You tell me that Satan is evil yet Satan is simply the personification of evil.

You converse with me in judgmental tones but fail to understand the nature of answering questions. One question though. Who gave you the right to judge me or anyone else for that matter?

You speak as if you know it all and have all the answers. Yet very simply anyone who thinks they know it all and have all the answers is living in a delusion.

If you come here to discuss and talk and debate that is fine. If you came here to proselytize you are in the wrong place. You will find that no one here will accept such a position. In fact it will only turn those now already questioning Christianity, off, but will turn others who might be inclined to listen, away.

I have been judged by others on forums. I've been called names and sworn at but only by those who call themselves Christians not by anyone else. Such activities hardly represent the life and message of Jesus of Nazareth. He too was judged and called names but only by the religious people of his day. He ate regularly with publicans, sinners and prostitutes etc. It would appear that his message has not gotten through to many even after 2000 years.

You are not the judge. God is and it is his role alone.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Ted »

Gannet:-6

As per you PM I do prefer to converse on the open forum when it comes to discussion or debate. Nothing can be hidden nor denied.

In your PM you speak of Abraham. If you read the book "Understanding the Old Testament" by Anderson you will find that the physical existence of Abraham is quite in question every bit as much as we know know that the Exodus story is a myth.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Ted »

At least this part of the forum has started to come alive again.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;672698 wrote: Gannet:-6

As per you PM I do prefer to converse on the open forum when it comes to discussion or debate. Nothing can be hidden nor denied.

In your PM you speak of Abraham. If you read the book "Understanding the Old Testament" by Anderson you will find that the physical existence of Abraham is quite in question every bit as much as we know know that the Exodus story is a myth.

Shalom

Ted:-6


"Why"... something Yeshua said a lot. I think he might have some real problems with our intransigence.
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

What intransigence?

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;673580 wrote: Clint:-6

What intransigence?

Shalom

Ted:-6


My mistake. I should have said my intransigence.
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

Many different folks have different ideas as to what sin and evil are and are not. What is your concept. I certainly can't comment on anything related to sin and evil if I don't know what you mean by the two.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;673686 wrote: Clint:-6

Many different folks have different ideas as to what sin and evil are and are not. What is your concept. I certainly can't comment on anything related to sin and evil if I don't know what you mean by the two.

Shalom

Ted:-6


I was trying to get us back on the thread's subject but oh well...

My short and simple opinion is that sin is acting against God's laws (written and unwritten). Evil is a being or force that acts against God's creation attempting to disrupt or distroy it.
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

I'm not at all convinced that it is off topic. Even here we have folks who do what they believe to be correct and impressed upon them by God and then those who disagree.

For instance some are opposed to divorce or religious grounds and others are convinced it is quite appropriate. Theft was considered wrong but what if it is theft prompted by the need to keep someone alive. Some consider homosexual activity wrong and others consider the abuse homosexuals are exposed to to be wrong. Homosexuality according to some as per Leviticus is wrong and yet according to Leviticus the wearing of clothing composed of more than one fiber is considered wrong as is the eating of shellfish or pork.

Would that sin and evil would be so easily defined. However, it is not that easy. It seems to me to be more complicated than some straight forward this or that is wrong. There seems to be other factors involved.

You said that sin was the breaking of God's laws, written or unwritten. Is it always thus?????

What about the woman who kills her husband in his sleep because of repeated physical and emotional abuse and out of fear for her safety?

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;673706 wrote:

What about the woman who kills her husband in his sleep because of repeated physical and emotional abuse and out of fear for her safety?


As I said, not all laws are written. She may be acting in harmony with an unwritten law. She is clearly opposing evil.
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

Perhaps. However what of the other examples?

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;673711 wrote: Perhaps. However what of the other examples?


War waged against an evil enemy, eating forbidden food to keep from offending someone, telling a lie to save someone needless pain.......
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

What you are saying, it would seem, is that they are not absolutes.

This then brings me back to the original question concerning sin and evil.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Clint »

Ted;673724 wrote: What you are saying, it would seem, is that they are not absolutes.

This then brings me back to the original question concerning sin and evil.


There is absolutely sin and evil. When we've crossed over the line we know we've sinned. The forces at play are either good or evil, either building up God and His creation or trying to destroy Him. Each of us, with God's spirit within us, knows what is right and what is wrong.

There are also absolute limits set that we don't become aware of spiritually. Suppose you are driving and you forget what the speed limit is so you exceed it. It is the law and it has a purpose...the police officer will be absolutely convinced of it. The limit was written and you exceeded what was written even though you weren't doing something God's spirit convicted you of.

If we take something belonging to someone else we are breaking a law written on our heart and a written law. There is no question about it being right or wrong. The person losing what we took will be absolutely right if they say we sinned.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Ted
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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

This raises several questions in my mind. How then do we get around that some Christians say "A" is right and others say it is wrong? A good example is the whole issue of homosexuality.

The second question that comes to mind is something as ordinary as a loaf of bread. What do we do about the man who goes into a store to steal a loaf of bread because his children are starving?

Another one that comes to mind is the issue of sexuality. In some countries sexual activity among young people as early as 10 are encouraged to engage in sexual activity while in other countries it is forbidden outside the bonds of marriage.

In this age of rampant terrorism what can we say about the man, knowing that his family is about to be tortured by the terrorists decides to kill them himself to avoid the horrible torture? What can we say when he then kills himself?

What can we say about Numbers 31 where God quite clearly allows and encourages war crimes?

What can we say about the ancient kings such as Solomon who had not only many wives but concubines as well? He must have been a very busy man. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Ted,

The man who steals the loaf of bread should have to pay the price for stealing while at the same time the owner of the bakery finds a way to help him feed his family. I see no place in God's economy where consequences are avoided however, I also see in His economy, grace and compassion

Homosexuality is a subject that's almost impossible to discuss anymore. When I consider it though, I consider it as I do God's law of gravity. I can ignore it but not without paying the price. If homosexuality resulted in joy, hope and good health, it could be argued it lines up with God's intent for His creation. In all other instances where God's creation is working as designed, sex can result in procreation, doesn't create health problems and gives hope and joy. I think it would be interesting to study what the Bible says about the subject more because I don’t see it saying anything about females while it is very clear when it comes to males. What I know of it in life, the consequences for males are great while I’m not sure there is that great a price to pay for females.

Was the man who killed himself killed by the terrorists or by his own hand? I would argue that God says He will not give us more than we can handle and at that point he gave the man the way out. If we could know what was in the man's mind when he ended it we could make the judgment, as it is we have to leave that to God.

Is it a crime if the Lawmaker orders it? He who makes the rules has the right to change the rules.

As for the "busy man"... he also wrote Ecclesiastes where he lamented being so "busy".
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Gannet101
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Post by Gannet101 »

Ted;673686 wrote: Clint:-6

Many different folks have different ideas as to what sin and evil are and are not. What is your concept. I certainly can't comment on anything related to sin and evil if I don't know what you mean by the two.

Shalom

Ted:-6


Sin is a violation of the law. The law was given by Moses and clarified very well by Jesus in the sermon on the mount and elsewhere. The apostles further made it clear what sin and evil are. The law is: love. So sin is anything outside of that.
Gannet101
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Post by Gannet101 »

> I don’t see it saying anything about females while it is very clear when it comes to males.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

romans 1:26 talks about lesbians
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