I take this morning's text, "God won't let evil men destroy His plans", from http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=23209 and to avoid going off-topic there I'm starting a new thread.
I take the title and this extract from Insomniac's post #24:But God is good, and only He knows why certain things work out the way they do.
He says in His Word that those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. I believe that. God chose the Jews to bring His Son into the world to save mankind from their evil nature, and God won't let evil men destroy His plans. The devil may have his way for a while, but the Lord is going to ultimately bring destruction on the evil ones who follow him (the devil).What sort of religion is it that asserts that its God needs to "save mankind from their evil nature" and yet regards that God as "good"? The thrust of my question is the meaning of the word "good", in case that's not apparent yet.
What sort of God is it that brings destruction to any part of His creation?
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Novelty;501236 wrote: "God, you're doing a heck of a job."The commoner word in that expression is "hell", not "heck". Make the substitution and you've got a neat summary of the thread. Belief in biblical inerrancy in the USA is rampant. Here's a cutting about it - "Roughly 3 out of 10 Americans continue to profess belief in a literal Bible today":Gallup Poll News Service, May 22 2006
The issue of belief in a literal Bible is an important one in specific religious circles in America today. A number of religious groups have made such a belief a central part of their belief structures. The Southern Baptist Convention, for example, is the largest Protestant denomination in America and the largest religious group of any kind other than the Roman Catholic Church. The Southern Baptists adopted a statement of "Faith and Message" in 2000, which states in part: "The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy." [...] The latest Gallup Poll data, collected May 8-11, show that 28% believe in a literal Bible.
I contend that if these 28% of Americans miraculously lost their faith in biblical inerrancy tonight the world would be a safer, friendlier, more peaceful, more spiritual place than it is today. More than any other group in American society, these 28% define the world's view of America and it's a view of fundamentalist intransigence and hubris. Fundamentalism within other religions anywhere is a minor pinprick irritant by comparison.
One consequence is the lack of representation of expressed agnostic or atheist belief within the US two-party political system, as indicated in Friday's Houston Chronicle.Only six members of Congress, all Democrats, identify themselves as religiously unaffiliated: Reps. John Tierney and John Olver of Massachusetts, Earl Blumenauer of Oregon, Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin and Mark Udall of Colorado.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/lif ... 33998.html
I note that "unaffiliated" doesn't mean that any of these six have declared themseves to be areligious, and I'd be interested if anyone knows of any statement they might have made which indicates that they have.
Just one member of Congress, Keith Ellison of Minnesota, is a Muslim. "Ellison's religion was a source of controversy throughout his campaign, and ever since. Most recently, when Ellison said that he would take the oath of office on the Quran, radio talk-show host Dennis Prager wrote on Townhall.com, 'He should not be allowed to do so because the act undermines American civilization.' A media firestorm ensued".
The issue of belief in a literal Bible is an important one in specific religious circles in America today. A number of religious groups have made such a belief a central part of their belief structures. The Southern Baptist Convention, for example, is the largest Protestant denomination in America and the largest religious group of any kind other than the Roman Catholic Church. The Southern Baptists adopted a statement of "Faith and Message" in 2000, which states in part: "The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy." [...] The latest Gallup Poll data, collected May 8-11, show that 28% believe in a literal Bible.
I contend that if these 28% of Americans miraculously lost their faith in biblical inerrancy tonight the world would be a safer, friendlier, more peaceful, more spiritual place than it is today. More than any other group in American society, these 28% define the world's view of America and it's a view of fundamentalist intransigence and hubris. Fundamentalism within other religions anywhere is a minor pinprick irritant by comparison.
One consequence is the lack of representation of expressed agnostic or atheist belief within the US two-party political system, as indicated in Friday's Houston Chronicle.Only six members of Congress, all Democrats, identify themselves as religiously unaffiliated: Reps. John Tierney and John Olver of Massachusetts, Earl Blumenauer of Oregon, Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin and Mark Udall of Colorado.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/lif ... 33998.html
I note that "unaffiliated" doesn't mean that any of these six have declared themseves to be areligious, and I'd be interested if anyone knows of any statement they might have made which indicates that they have.
Just one member of Congress, Keith Ellison of Minnesota, is a Muslim. "Ellison's religion was a source of controversy throughout his campaign, and ever since. Most recently, when Ellison said that he would take the oath of office on the Quran, radio talk-show host Dennis Prager wrote on Townhall.com, 'He should not be allowed to do so because the act undermines American civilization.' A media firestorm ensued".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
The imposition of dogmatic belief on children is one of the worst abuses fundamentalist religious adherents perform. There's a summary of one examination of this at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=22 which, since it deals with supposed events 3000 years ago, can scarcely be blamed on nationalistic patriotism. Once the religious identification is removed the children all fell back to the moral evaluation that average non-fundamentalist people display, so again it's not a question of them being brought up with no moral values. The religious dimension distorts it to inhuman responses, that's all.
So, where's the "good" in this sort of God who can distort morality to such a skewed parody of righteousness? That's a God worth fighting, not a God to bow down to and worship.
So, where's the "good" in this sort of God who can distort morality to such a skewed parody of righteousness? That's a God worth fighting, not a God to bow down to and worship.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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God won't let evil men destroy His plans
I'm aghast at the intolerance shown in this thread.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Accountable;501705 wrote: I'm aghast at the intolerance shown in this thread.
As should be all men of goodwill. Thank you for your support.
As should be all men of goodwill. Thank you for your support.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot;501721 wrote: As should be all men of goodwill. Thank you for your support.
I speak of yours, as you well know. You started the thread, after all.
I speak of yours, as you well know. You started the thread, after all.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Accountable;501803 wrote: I speak of yours, as you well know. You started the thread, after all.
In what way am I expressing intolerance?
In what way am I expressing intolerance?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
First...Diuretic, you are correct, I am a Jewish person who follows Jesus as my messiah.
Spot, you asked:
What sort of religion is it that asserts that its God needs to "save mankind from their evil nature" and yet regards that God as "good"?
My question to that would be What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them?
Spot, you asked:
What sort of religion is it that asserts that its God needs to "save mankind from their evil nature" and yet regards that God as "good"?
My question to that would be What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them?
You can't control the wind, but you can adjust your sails.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Insomniac;501810 wrote: Spot, you asked:
What sort of religion is it that asserts that its God needs to "save mankind from their evil nature" and yet regards that God as "good"?
My question to that would be What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them?"What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them"? A competitor of the devil? What's the Christian biblical devil done, compared to the Christian biblical God, that makes you feel that this God is the "good" and this devil isn't? This devil's a tempter, this God you're describing a jealous genocidal destroyer of parts of His own creation.
The parts he destroys aren't just those who worship other gods, they include his own worshippers. Do you know how many of the entire Israelite nation who left Egypt at His command survived the forty years in the wilderness and entered Canaan, in this inerrant bible? Two of them, Caleb and Joshua. If you think the Exodus was hard on the Egyptians with all those plagues, it was far worse for anyone who worshipped Israel's God.Numbers 26:64 Not one of them was among those counted by Moses and Aaron the priest when they counted the Israelites in the Desert of Sinai.
Numbers 26:65 For the LORD had told those Israelites they would surely die in the desert, and not one of them was left except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.How can the devil stack up against that for evil? The devil's an amateur by comparison.
Now, if you throw out biblical inerrancy and allow an experience of God to override the biblical truth about God you get a different relationship - not becessarily better, but definitely different. The trouble is that the leaders of the 28% of Americans who believe in biblical inerrancy say far too often that they know the only truth and that you're a hell-bound deluded unChristian disbeliever if you put personal experience above the teachings of the Christian bible.
What sort of religion is it that asserts that its God needs to "save mankind from their evil nature" and yet regards that God as "good"?
My question to that would be What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them?"What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them"? A competitor of the devil? What's the Christian biblical devil done, compared to the Christian biblical God, that makes you feel that this God is the "good" and this devil isn't? This devil's a tempter, this God you're describing a jealous genocidal destroyer of parts of His own creation.
The parts he destroys aren't just those who worship other gods, they include his own worshippers. Do you know how many of the entire Israelite nation who left Egypt at His command survived the forty years in the wilderness and entered Canaan, in this inerrant bible? Two of them, Caleb and Joshua. If you think the Exodus was hard on the Egyptians with all those plagues, it was far worse for anyone who worshipped Israel's God.Numbers 26:64 Not one of them was among those counted by Moses and Aaron the priest when they counted the Israelites in the Desert of Sinai.
Numbers 26:65 For the LORD had told those Israelites they would surely die in the desert, and not one of them was left except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.How can the devil stack up against that for evil? The devil's an amateur by comparison.
Now, if you throw out biblical inerrancy and allow an experience of God to override the biblical truth about God you get a different relationship - not becessarily better, but definitely different. The trouble is that the leaders of the 28% of Americans who believe in biblical inerrancy say far too often that they know the only truth and that you're a hell-bound deluded unChristian disbeliever if you put personal experience above the teachings of the Christian bible.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
This all of course begs the question, what actually are gods plans? Anyone got his number so we can ring and ask him? In such debates God is used as an infinitive punctuation mark to justify what is simply someones opinions, whether you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Pagan, Hindu, Sikh, agnostic, atheist, deist, etc etc. If God himself actually has any opinion on such questions, its clear that, for whatever reason, he chooses to remain silent.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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Richard Bell
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God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot;501807 wrote: In what way am I expressing intolerance?
You're intolerant of intolerance.
You're intolerant of intolerance.
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Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Insomniac;501810 wrote:
Spot, you asked:
What sort of religion is it that asserts that its God needs to "save mankind from their evil nature" and yet regards that God as "good"?
My question to that would be What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them?
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just God when he's drunk."
Tom Waits
Spot, you asked:
What sort of religion is it that asserts that its God needs to "save mankind from their evil nature" and yet regards that God as "good"?
My question to that would be What sort of God would allow His children to be led astray by the devil and yet NOT try to save them?
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just God when he's drunk."
Tom Waits
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Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot;501239 wrote: Just one member of Congress, Keith Ellison of Minnesota, is a Muslim. "Ellison's religion was a source of controversy throughout his campaign, and ever since.
I find this extremely interesting, in light of the FG thread about the roofing company truck that is festooned with Christian symbolism and slogans.
I find this extremely interesting, in light of the FG thread about the roofing company truck that is festooned with Christian symbolism and slogans.
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cherandbuster
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God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot;501193 wrote: The thrust of my question
Ohhh
I do like it when you use the word 'thrust' :p
Ohhh
I do like it when you use the word 'thrust' :p
Live Life with
PASSION!:guitarist
PASSION!:guitarist
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
It seems to me that if we accept the idea that in Jesus we saw and see the true nature of God than we know what He wants. To put it simply, He wants the best for every human being. He wants us to create the beginnings of the Kingdom of God here on earth. All the rest is man made dogma and doctrine.
Or to put it another way He wants us to live in a developing, loving and transforming relationship with Himself. The message is simple. Humans have complicated the issue.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Or to put it another way He wants us to live in a developing, loving and transforming relationship with Himself. The message is simple. Humans have complicated the issue.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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acousticide
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God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Ted
You hit the nail on the head.
If we were developing a closer relationship with God the Father, then the rest of this would be meaningless
You hit the nail on the head.
If we were developing a closer relationship with God the Father, then the rest of this would be meaningless
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
We can't experience life without choices. Good and evil provide the choices we need to experience life. God provides both so we can live.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
The idea that good and evil are the product of evolution is interesting. It makes me ask which is dominate. Is good becoming stonger or is evil. Evolution would result in one prevailing and we would ulltimately end up losing choice. What guarantees good will prevail? In the economy of evolution, does it matter?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Clint:-6
A very good question to explore.
In my view humans are born a clean slate. I think that culture, upbringing, social milieu, genetics, education and one's own personal desires influence their behaviour. There has to be many factors since a good family can turn out good or "bad" offspring.
Then we have the problem of morality being relative in many ways. What is considered good in one place may be considered bad in another.
Shalom
Ted:-6
A very good question to explore.
In my view humans are born a clean slate. I think that culture, upbringing, social milieu, genetics, education and one's own personal desires influence their behaviour. There has to be many factors since a good family can turn out good or "bad" offspring.
Then we have the problem of morality being relative in many ways. What is considered good in one place may be considered bad in another.
Shalom
Ted:-6
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Clint;503743 wrote: We can't experience life without choices. Good and evil provide the choices we need to experience life. God provides both so we can live.That doesn't really square up with "God won't let evil men destroy His plans" though. The idea that He's saying "you can choose to be good or you can choose to be bad, but I've given you an exact word-by-word book of examples and rules and if you choose wrong I'll have my devil torture you for all eternity" is a bad example of how to live together in its own right.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot;504025 wrote: That doesn't really square up with "God won't let evil men destroy His plans" though. The idea that He's saying "you can choose to be good or you can choose to be bad, but I've given you an exact word-by-word book of examples and rules and if you choose wrong I'll have my devil torture you for all eternity" is a bad example of how to live together in its own right.
He has given us more than a book. He has given us the example of His creation all around us. He has given us the experiences of life that tell us we are moving in the right direction or the wrong direction. He has given us the example of forgiveness and repentance and begged us to use them. He made it easy to avoid punishment, all we have to do is move in His direction. Evil men will do evil things and destroy the good plan unless they are faced with an option they can't accept. God has made doing evil a bad choice to keep the rest of His creation from being destroyed by evil.
He has given us more than a book. He has given us the example of His creation all around us. He has given us the experiences of life that tell us we are moving in the right direction or the wrong direction. He has given us the example of forgiveness and repentance and begged us to use them. He made it easy to avoid punishment, all we have to do is move in His direction. Evil men will do evil things and destroy the good plan unless they are faced with an option they can't accept. God has made doing evil a bad choice to keep the rest of His creation from being destroyed by evil.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Clint;504211 wrote: He has given us more than a book. He has given us the example of His creation all around us. He has given us the experiences of life that tell us we are moving in the right direction or the wrong direction. He has given us the example of forgiveness and repentance and begged us to use them. He made it easy to avoid punishment, all we have to do is move in His direction. Evil men will do evil things and destroy the good plan unless they are faced with an option they can't accept. God has made doing evil a bad choice to keep the rest of His creation from being destroyed by evil.
Which example of forgiveness and repentance is this, Clint? I think it's the lack of such example which I'm concerned by. If you name one of them, or some of them, then we can dig into the matter a bit.
Which example of forgiveness and repentance is this, Clint? I think it's the lack of such example which I'm concerned by. If you name one of them, or some of them, then we can dig into the matter a bit.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
There is a basic flaw in "God won't let evil men destroy His plans" and that is the absolute that all men are part of God's plan. It's not as if only the good men were put here by God and the evil men put here by Satan. We all come from the same source. We are all part of the same plan.
I'm interested in hearing about this God that only offers conditional love.
Does God have feelings?
Who thinks God is a guy with a white beard sitting on a throne in the clouds? (Not that there's anything wrong with that :-3 )
I'm interested in hearing about this God that only offers conditional love.
Does God have feelings?
Who thinks God is a guy with a white beard sitting on a throne in the clouds? (Not that there's anything wrong with that :-3 )
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
koan;504281 wrote: There is a basic flaw in "God won't let evil men destroy His plans" and that is the absolute that all men are part of God's plan. It's not as if only the good men were put here by God and the evil men put here by Satan. We all come from the same source. We are all part of the same plan.
I'm interested in hearing about this God that only offers conditional love.
Does God have feelings?
Who thinks God is a guy with a white beard sitting on a throne in the clouds? (Not that there's anything wrong with that :-3 )
Anybody who knows anything knows God doesn't have a white beard:rolleyes: . It's black if your hair is black, blonde if your hair is blonde, brown if your hair is brown and so on. God is who God is but to each of us He is different depending on the filter we view him through. Our view of Him doesn't change Him but it's the only view we have of Him so to us it is who He is.
Why can't all men, evil and good, be part of God's plan? The God I believe in is the God of all and God above all gods. When He put things in motion, He knew how it would go. He knew that if everything was good we wouldn't have any way of knowing it was good unless He created contrast (evil). He knew that with out the choices between good and evil we would be no more than grazing cattle. Through Jesus we see God. Jesus was tempted by evil and made choices just like we do.
God's love isn't conditional and He loves us all equally. I'm sure that just like any father, His heart breaks when one of His children chooses evil over good even after He has done so much to teach us which is best for us. I'm sure He is sad beyond our understanding when his children fight with each other. And I'm sure the last thing he wants to see is one of us walking away from Him into a place where He isn't there to keep us from being tormented.
His plan includes a plan that allows us to return from our bad choices. There is though, I believe, a point at which He says, "enough is enough". I think it's the point we choose to walk away, knowing full well what we are doing, without the intent of ever returning to Him. It's when we say the final "no" to His offer to return to Him and accept His forgiveness and restoration. We never know when life will end so playing the waiting game won't work.
I'm interested in hearing about this God that only offers conditional love.
Does God have feelings?
Who thinks God is a guy with a white beard sitting on a throne in the clouds? (Not that there's anything wrong with that :-3 )
Anybody who knows anything knows God doesn't have a white beard:rolleyes: . It's black if your hair is black, blonde if your hair is blonde, brown if your hair is brown and so on. God is who God is but to each of us He is different depending on the filter we view him through. Our view of Him doesn't change Him but it's the only view we have of Him so to us it is who He is.
Why can't all men, evil and good, be part of God's plan? The God I believe in is the God of all and God above all gods. When He put things in motion, He knew how it would go. He knew that if everything was good we wouldn't have any way of knowing it was good unless He created contrast (evil). He knew that with out the choices between good and evil we would be no more than grazing cattle. Through Jesus we see God. Jesus was tempted by evil and made choices just like we do.
God's love isn't conditional and He loves us all equally. I'm sure that just like any father, His heart breaks when one of His children chooses evil over good even after He has done so much to teach us which is best for us. I'm sure He is sad beyond our understanding when his children fight with each other. And I'm sure the last thing he wants to see is one of us walking away from Him into a place where He isn't there to keep us from being tormented.
His plan includes a plan that allows us to return from our bad choices. There is though, I believe, a point at which He says, "enough is enough". I think it's the point we choose to walk away, knowing full well what we are doing, without the intent of ever returning to Him. It's when we say the final "no" to His offer to return to Him and accept His forgiveness and restoration. We never know when life will end so playing the waiting game won't work.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Clint;507508 wrote: Anybody who knows anything knows God doesn't have a white beard:rolleyes: . It's black if your hair is black, blonde if your hair is blonde, brown if your hair is brown and so on. God is who God is but to each of us He is different depending on the filter we view him through. Our view of Him doesn't change Him but it's the only view we have of Him so to us it is who He is.
that's such an odd phrase "anybody who knows anything..." it is another way of saying "nobody who knows nothing". Some would say that anyone who knows nothing has gained enlightenment.
Why can't all men, evil and good, be part of God's plan? The God I believe in is the God of all and God above all gods. When He put things in motion, He knew how it would go. He knew that if everything was good we wouldn't have any way of knowing it was good unless He created contrast (evil). He knew that with out the choices between good and evil we would be no more than grazing cattle. Through Jesus we see God. Jesus was tempted by evil and made choices just like we do.
You speak as though Jesus was the only prophet. Who else has managed to be as Jesus was? Do you think anyone who falls short will be doomed in the afterlife?
God's love isn't conditional and He loves us all equally. I'm sure that just like any father, His heart breaks when one of His children chooses evil over good even after He has done so much to teach us which is best for us. I'm sure He is sad beyond our understanding when his children fight with each other. And I'm sure the last thing he wants to see is one of us walking away from Him into a place where He isn't there to keep us from being tormented.
God has a heart? God feels emotions? Somehow I can't imagine that God, were He to have eyes, would ever see something that would be considered "the last thing". Perhaps you believe there will be an end to this lovely cesspool?
His plan includes a plan that allows us to return from our bad choices. There is though, I believe, a point at which He says, "enough is enough". I think it's the point we choose to walk away, knowing full well what we are doing, without the intent of ever returning to Him. It's when we say the final "no" to His offer to return to Him and accept His forgiveness and restoration. We never know when life will end so playing the waiting game won't work.
I wonder what that would look like, God saying "enough is enough". :wah: I also wonder what it's like to know full well what I'm doing.
that's such an odd phrase "anybody who knows anything..." it is another way of saying "nobody who knows nothing". Some would say that anyone who knows nothing has gained enlightenment.
Why can't all men, evil and good, be part of God's plan? The God I believe in is the God of all and God above all gods. When He put things in motion, He knew how it would go. He knew that if everything was good we wouldn't have any way of knowing it was good unless He created contrast (evil). He knew that with out the choices between good and evil we would be no more than grazing cattle. Through Jesus we see God. Jesus was tempted by evil and made choices just like we do.
You speak as though Jesus was the only prophet. Who else has managed to be as Jesus was? Do you think anyone who falls short will be doomed in the afterlife?
God's love isn't conditional and He loves us all equally. I'm sure that just like any father, His heart breaks when one of His children chooses evil over good even after He has done so much to teach us which is best for us. I'm sure He is sad beyond our understanding when his children fight with each other. And I'm sure the last thing he wants to see is one of us walking away from Him into a place where He isn't there to keep us from being tormented.
God has a heart? God feels emotions? Somehow I can't imagine that God, were He to have eyes, would ever see something that would be considered "the last thing". Perhaps you believe there will be an end to this lovely cesspool?
His plan includes a plan that allows us to return from our bad choices. There is though, I believe, a point at which He says, "enough is enough". I think it's the point we choose to walk away, knowing full well what we are doing, without the intent of ever returning to Him. It's when we say the final "no" to His offer to return to Him and accept His forgiveness and restoration. We never know when life will end so playing the waiting game won't work.
I wonder what that would look like, God saying "enough is enough". :wah: I also wonder what it's like to know full well what I'm doing.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
koan;507627 wrote: that's such an odd phrase "anybody who knows anything..." it is another way of saying "nobody who knows nothing". Some would say that anyone who knows nothing has gained enlightenment.
You speak as though Jesus was the only prophet. Who else has managed to be as Jesus was? Do you think anyone who falls short will be doomed in the afterlife?
God has a heart? God feels emotions? Somehow I can't imagine that God, were He to have eyes, would ever see something that would be considered "the last thing". Perhaps you believe there will be an end to this lovely cesspool?
I wonder what that would look like, God saying "enough is enough". :wah: I also wonder what it's like to know full well what I'm doing.
I'm enlightened in the eyes of some.:wah:
I don't consider Jesus to be a prophet only. He isn't just and inspired speaker. He is much more. I believe he is part of the Godhead. He demonstrated God's love to us. He went to the cross to show us there isn't a price too high to pay for our good. He defeated death to show us he has authority over death for us. We can be found guilty in the court of man and still have life with God. He did it all because we fall short and God doesn't want falling short to be the end of us. Jesus reached out to prostitutes, thieves, and even tax collectors. God wants all of us to be with Him in this life and it's continuation.
I see in the center of God, His heart, filled with emotion. He is joyful over our successes, sad when we don't succeed and angry over injustice. I can't imagine God without His emotions and them changing as He responds to what He sees. I don't believe He is flesh and bones. I believe He is a spiritual being. As such His heart and eyes are not literal even though they function.
Yes, I believe there will be an end to this lovely cesspool. It will either end for all of us at once or for us individually.
I too have to wonder what it would be like to know full well what I am doing.
If we walk away from Him, exercising our free will with intent to sever our relationship with Him, we will probably succeed and suffer the loss.
You speak as though Jesus was the only prophet. Who else has managed to be as Jesus was? Do you think anyone who falls short will be doomed in the afterlife?
God has a heart? God feels emotions? Somehow I can't imagine that God, were He to have eyes, would ever see something that would be considered "the last thing". Perhaps you believe there will be an end to this lovely cesspool?
I wonder what that would look like, God saying "enough is enough". :wah: I also wonder what it's like to know full well what I'm doing.
I'm enlightened in the eyes of some.:wah:
I don't consider Jesus to be a prophet only. He isn't just and inspired speaker. He is much more. I believe he is part of the Godhead. He demonstrated God's love to us. He went to the cross to show us there isn't a price too high to pay for our good. He defeated death to show us he has authority over death for us. We can be found guilty in the court of man and still have life with God. He did it all because we fall short and God doesn't want falling short to be the end of us. Jesus reached out to prostitutes, thieves, and even tax collectors. God wants all of us to be with Him in this life and it's continuation.
I see in the center of God, His heart, filled with emotion. He is joyful over our successes, sad when we don't succeed and angry over injustice. I can't imagine God without His emotions and them changing as He responds to what He sees. I don't believe He is flesh and bones. I believe He is a spiritual being. As such His heart and eyes are not literal even though they function.
Yes, I believe there will be an end to this lovely cesspool. It will either end for all of us at once or for us individually.
I too have to wonder what it would be like to know full well what I am doing.
If we walk away from Him, exercising our free will with intent to sever our relationship with Him, we will probably succeed and suffer the loss.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Plans are plans, and shouldn't be confused with execution. I forget who said it (Eisenhower, I think): Plans are useless, but planning is essential.
Parents make plans for their children, but that doesn't rob the children of the will to do as they please.
Parents make plans for their children, but that doesn't rob the children of the will to do as they please.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Accountable;507732 wrote: Plans are plans, and shouldn't be confused with execution. I forget who said it (Eisenhower, I think): Plans are useless, but planning is essential.
Parents make plans for their children, but that doesn't rob the children to do as they please.
I recently had an adult child choose to walk away from our relationship. He did in a way that left no questions about what he wanted to do. I can only pray now that he will return before one of us dies. As long as I live I'll wait and hope.
Parents make plans for their children, but that doesn't rob the children to do as they please.
I recently had an adult child choose to walk away from our relationship. He did in a way that left no questions about what he wanted to do. I can only pray now that he will return before one of us dies. As long as I live I'll wait and hope.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Diuretic;507769 wrote: I like it when I read something and immediately I'm made a bit wiser than the moment immediately before my reading of it. Thanks Acc.
Wow. You're welcome, of course, Di. I think I can count on my thumbs the number of times I've done that.
Wow. You're welcome, of course, Di. I think I can count on my thumbs the number of times I've done that.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Diuretic;507769 wrote: I like it when I read something and immediately I'm made a bit wiser than the moment immediately before my reading of it. Thanks Acc.
Clint, I hope things work out, I really do.
Thank you. It's one of those crazy things. It's not even me he's mad at.
Clint, I hope things work out, I really do.
Thank you. It's one of those crazy things. It's not even me he's mad at.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
We have anthropomorphised God since man gain consciousness because we have no other way to define or describe the divine. All languages are incapable of dealing with the divine directly so we must resort to metaphor.
As a Christian pluralist I accept the messiah ship of Jesus but also recognize the validity of all of the worlds great faiths.
Shalom
Ted:-6
As a Christian pluralist I accept the messiah ship of Jesus but also recognize the validity of all of the worlds great faiths.
Shalom
Ted:-6
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Clint;507740 wrote: I recently had an adult child choose to walk away from our relationship. He did in a way that left no questions about what he wanted to do. I can only pray now that he will return before one of us dies. As long as I live I'll wait and hope.
You just ripped my heart out Clint. I swim in those waters every day. I will be thinking of you ,and sending strength through the energy fields to try to help you deal with this.
You just ripped my heart out Clint. I swim in those waters every day. I will be thinking of you ,and sending strength through the energy fields to try to help you deal with this.
[FONT=Microsoft Sans Serif][/FONT]
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Clint:-6
Our thoughts and prayers are with you at this time. May God bless you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Our thoughts and prayers are with you at this time. May God bless you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Thank you, Weeder and Ted. We've had some pretty dark days lately. It happened a few months after our son-in-law died. I think it may be an over reaction associated with the trauma and grief. He made it sound pretty final and to do it when he did it made it seem even more so.
I appreciate your thoughts, prayers and comforting words.
I appreciate your thoughts, prayers and comforting words.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
weeder;508435 wrote: You just ripped my heart out Clint. I swim in those waters every day. I will be thinking of you ,and sending strength through the energy fields to try to help you deal with this.
Weeder, you have my thoughts and prayers. I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with some of the same stuff... dang it
Weeder, you have my thoughts and prayers. I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with some of the same stuff... dang it
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
weeder:-6
I must have been sleeping on the job.
My thoughts and prayers are with you as well. May God bless you.
I've been fortunate not to have such an event either with my own family i.e. brothers and sister nor in my own family with my own children. But I do know others who have had similar problems.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I must have been sleeping on the job.
My thoughts and prayers are with you as well. May God bless you.
I've been fortunate not to have such an event either with my own family i.e. brothers and sister nor in my own family with my own children. But I do know others who have had similar problems.
Shalom
Ted:-6
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Weeder and Clint, you can bring this light of experience to the matter of a parent's love. What sort of love or duty is being expressed when a parent sacrifices his or her own offspring? "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" - presumably, if I'm not misinterpreting the passage, to crucifixion and death. Sacrifice is central to Christianity. Jesus, according to the bible, was to pay for the sins of all those eventually to be found acceptable and taken into heaven. Not to pay for everyone, just to pay for those that Jesus finally acknowledged to be His own:"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'That's not a matter of people cutting themselves off from the presence of God, that's God rejecting those who don't come up to scratch. It's a cop-out to say that God wants everyone to choose to be "good" and that those who reject grace are consequentially "bad". I know people who have rejected grace and are far from being bad people. Whether we're discussing God as Creator or God as Father He's a lousy role-model for society at large. I'll repeat the question, what sort of love or duty is being expressed when a parent sacrifices his or her own offspring?
The same story appears earlier in the bible as an example of parental duty, in Judges 11:The Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
"My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed.Jephthah was mistaken in thinking he knew God's will as far as burning his daughter was concerned? Not at all, the Spirit of the Lord was on him and there's no angel intervening at the last minute with a substitute ram this time. And what he did was no more than God did to Jesus, after all.
I'm a parent. I don't do this sort of thing to my children. I deplore anyone, God included, who thinks there's the remotest justification for that sort of "love", and yet the entire philosophy is so much at the heart of Christianity that it can't be removed. I'd rather find an alternative understanding of the nature of reality than support that sort of God however much He claims to love me.
The same story appears earlier in the bible as an example of parental duty, in Judges 11:The Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
"My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed.Jephthah was mistaken in thinking he knew God's will as far as burning his daughter was concerned? Not at all, the Spirit of the Lord was on him and there's no angel intervening at the last minute with a substitute ram this time. And what he did was no more than God did to Jesus, after all.
I'm a parent. I don't do this sort of thing to my children. I deplore anyone, God included, who thinks there's the remotest justification for that sort of "love", and yet the entire philosophy is so much at the heart of Christianity that it can't be removed. I'd rather find an alternative understanding of the nature of reality than support that sort of God however much He claims to love me.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot:-6
Without looking the exact reference up the Bible also says that "He is not willing that any should perish."
The theology of atonement which you are deriding is a creation of Augustine and is very much in question today. Indeed, what kind of God would sacrifice His own son? That question is raised by many theologians who no longer accept the theology of atonement.
We still have to remember that the Bible is a very human book in which men describe their perception of their interaction with God and is not written from God's point of view. Much of the Bible is also midrashic or if you like metaphor and one must seek out the meaning and not ask if this or that really happened this way.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Without looking the exact reference up the Bible also says that "He is not willing that any should perish."
The theology of atonement which you are deriding is a creation of Augustine and is very much in question today. Indeed, what kind of God would sacrifice His own son? That question is raised by many theologians who no longer accept the theology of atonement.
We still have to remember that the Bible is a very human book in which men describe their perception of their interaction with God and is not written from God's point of view. Much of the Bible is also midrashic or if you like metaphor and one must seek out the meaning and not ask if this or that really happened this way.
Shalom
Ted:-6
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
Ted;509220 wrote: The theology of atonement which you are deriding is a creation of Augustine and is very much in question today. Indeed, what kind of God would sacrifice His own son? That question is raised by many theologians who no longer accept the theology of atonement.That'd be fine, Ted, and we could brush the misunderstood concept aside, were it not for Paul embedding it firmly into holy writ:Romans 3: We know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.Now, by all means we can agree that what Paul said can be discussed and interpreted in the light of theological and moral understanding, and that Christianity can change its understanding as time passes, to accommodate the needs of each age, but I go back to the matter of the thread: "the latest Gallup Poll data, collected May 8-11, show that 28% [of Americans] believe in a literal Bible". I'm sick to the back teeth with turning the other cheek to these people who refuse to recognise that I have any Christian credentials at all, and both believe and insist that they have the absolute moral high ground in any discussion. It's where "God won't let evil men destroy His plans" comes from, and that's a proposition which I utterly abhor.
The sole purpose of starting this thread is to demonstrate that if they're right about inerrancy then Christianity is a movement which deserves to wither and die, the sooner the better. If, on the other hand, it's organic and capable of change, that's fine by me too, but it does involve either ditching the lunatic fringe (which, bear in mind, is a large proportion of the American public and more than capable of deciding political representation in that country) or hammering the impossibility of their position into their tiny little minds. Which is why Jephthah comes into the foreground at this point. Is he good? Is his daughter good for not screaming blue murder? Is God good for giving the Ammonites into Jephthah's hand, having put His spirit onto him, and (having involved Himself to that extent) accepting the sacrifice afterwards? Or do you think He accepted the deal, brought mayhem upon the Ammonites and then just stayed schtum when Jephthah lit the fire and started to sharpen his knife?
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.Now, by all means we can agree that what Paul said can be discussed and interpreted in the light of theological and moral understanding, and that Christianity can change its understanding as time passes, to accommodate the needs of each age, but I go back to the matter of the thread: "the latest Gallup Poll data, collected May 8-11, show that 28% [of Americans] believe in a literal Bible". I'm sick to the back teeth with turning the other cheek to these people who refuse to recognise that I have any Christian credentials at all, and both believe and insist that they have the absolute moral high ground in any discussion. It's where "God won't let evil men destroy His plans" comes from, and that's a proposition which I utterly abhor.
The sole purpose of starting this thread is to demonstrate that if they're right about inerrancy then Christianity is a movement which deserves to wither and die, the sooner the better. If, on the other hand, it's organic and capable of change, that's fine by me too, but it does involve either ditching the lunatic fringe (which, bear in mind, is a large proportion of the American public and more than capable of deciding political representation in that country) or hammering the impossibility of their position into their tiny little minds. Which is why Jephthah comes into the foreground at this point. Is he good? Is his daughter good for not screaming blue murder? Is God good for giving the Ammonites into Jephthah's hand, having put His spirit onto him, and (having involved Himself to that extent) accepting the sacrifice afterwards? Or do you think He accepted the deal, brought mayhem upon the Ammonites and then just stayed schtum when Jephthah lit the fire and started to sharpen his knife?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot:-6
I agree with much of what you say. Fundamentalism is a dangerous proposition and leads to utter nonsense and extremism. I just don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm certainly, personally, not going to let their viewpoint ruin the faith I have.
In many ways I guess both you and I are being tarred with the same brush by these folks. I do, however, refuse to let their assumed power exercise any authority over myself.
You mentioned Paul. I've just finished reading a couple of books on Paul; "In Search of Paul" by Crossan and "Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" by Ehrman. The present understanding by many theologians is that only 7 of all the books ascribed to Paul actually came from Paul and the rest are forgeries. In addition they note through their assessment techniques that there have been later insertions by the early church into some of Paul's authentic letters. Those authentic letters are thought to include: 1 & 2 Cor, Galatians, Ephesians, Philemon, 1 Thes, Philippians. Both are very interesting books.
I also suspect the story of the father and daughter is simply a mythic tale written to make a theological point rather than an historical account. I feel the same about the Abraham and Issac sacrifice story is the same. These were written in another time by a totally different culture then ours and for a totally different audience.
Anyway I think that you and I are on the same page.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I agree with much of what you say. Fundamentalism is a dangerous proposition and leads to utter nonsense and extremism. I just don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm certainly, personally, not going to let their viewpoint ruin the faith I have.
In many ways I guess both you and I are being tarred with the same brush by these folks. I do, however, refuse to let their assumed power exercise any authority over myself.
You mentioned Paul. I've just finished reading a couple of books on Paul; "In Search of Paul" by Crossan and "Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" by Ehrman. The present understanding by many theologians is that only 7 of all the books ascribed to Paul actually came from Paul and the rest are forgeries. In addition they note through their assessment techniques that there have been later insertions by the early church into some of Paul's authentic letters. Those authentic letters are thought to include: 1 & 2 Cor, Galatians, Ephesians, Philemon, 1 Thes, Philippians. Both are very interesting books.
I also suspect the story of the father and daughter is simply a mythic tale written to make a theological point rather than an historical account. I feel the same about the Abraham and Issac sacrifice story is the same. These were written in another time by a totally different culture then ours and for a totally different audience.
Anyway I think that you and I are on the same page.
Shalom
Ted:-6
God won't let evil men destroy His plans
spot:-6
I should add that neither do I believe that God plans individual lives or the progress of things in the world. That would be totally contrary to the whole concept of both free will and unconditional love.
The other problem that faces us today is trying to get rid of the anthropomorphic parts of our belief in the divine. Such an approach muddies the waters and leads to ridiculous beliefs and concepts such as the ones you've been pointing out.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I should add that neither do I believe that God plans individual lives or the progress of things in the world. That would be totally contrary to the whole concept of both free will and unconditional love.
The other problem that faces us today is trying to get rid of the anthropomorphic parts of our belief in the divine. Such an approach muddies the waters and leads to ridiculous beliefs and concepts such as the ones you've been pointing out.
Shalom
Ted:-6