Another Evangelist bites the dust

[zinkyusa]

These guys crack me up..It always seems to be the ones who are still in the closet who are the biggest gay bashers. I think Paul was one.:sneaky:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/

[Slade1]

This actually made it onto our news here in the UK. I think it's hilarious!

I agree, it's always the ones who say that homosexuality is disgusting and sinful that end up having secret tendencies. I think it's called over compensating...

[Atsila]

zinkyusa;449042 wrote: These guys crack me up..It always seems to be the ones who are still in the closet who are the biggest gay bashers. I think Paul was one.:sneaky:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/
Frolic in the smut, Zinky? You like that? What's the lesson here? No, it's not another smut puddle for your frolicking. They could have shoved him off to another church to sin some more and more and more, eh? Instead, his sins are where everyone can see them and he is being dealt with, but not for being homosexual. You a homophobe, Zinky? I'm surprised you didn't say Christ was one. Hey, he will deal with accusations whether against HIM or against those who belong to HIM.

Watch out, HE's comin' fer ya! hehehehehehe! :yh_rotfl :yh_loser

I see your forum is busy? :wah:

[Atsila]

Slade1;449113 wrote: This actually made it onto our news here in the UK. I think it's hilarious!

I agree, it's always the ones who say that homosexuality is disgusting and sinful that end up having secret tendencies. I think it's called over compensating...
You have a fair amount of dirt in your neck of the kingdom. Get busy. From the top of your heap on down to the meanest of English society, you have need of Mr. Clean.

[Marie5656]

zinkyusa;449042 wrote: These guys crack me up..It always seems to be the ones who are still in the closet who are the biggest gay bashers.




Oh gawd, Zinky..that comment reminds me of a guy I used to work with..about 10 years ago. Always had some really macho gay-bashing statements. Seemed to always find a way to trash gays.

Then another co-worker made a side remark to me one day.."Hard to believe HE is gay, isn't it?". How did the person know, you ask? Because HE, himself, was gay...and frequently saw the basher out at the gay bars where he went.

[rainbowsmiles]

These guys crack me up..It always seems to be the ones who are still in the closet who are the biggest gay bashers.


You are so right about that zinky!

[Clint]

Hypocrisy…yup…it’s everywhere you look. Kinda reminds me of a Congressman who was outed for homosexual activity by the Democrat homosexual community because he was Republican.

Haggart’s a hypocrite alright. His hypocrisy is news because he pretended to represent a system that focuses on trying to do what’s right. Those who don’t want to be reminded of their own transgressions leap with joy when they can find a chink in the system’s armor. And it’s actually a good thing that they do. It keeps the bar high and ensures the failure of hypocrites within the Christian community.

[Ted]

I have no great respect for these pseudo-churches that the likes of Ted Haggard move to create or invent. However, I am reminded of Jesus words to the woman at the well, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."

Shalom

Ted:-6

[zinkyusa]

Atsila;450253 wrote: Frolic in the smut, Zinky? You like that? What's the lesson here? No, it's not another smut puddle for your frolicking. They could have shoved him off to another church to sin some more and more and more, eh? Instead, his sins are where everyone can see them and he is being dealt with, but not for being homosexual. You a homophobe, Zinky? I'm surprised you didn't say Christ was one. Hey, he will deal with accusations whether against HIM or against those who belong to HIM.

Watch out, HE's comin' fer ya! hehehehehehe! :yh_rotfl :yh_loser

I see your forum is busy? :wah:


Godzilla, when did you crawl back out from under your rock? When he comes for me I hope you tag along so I can kick your a$$..

[guppy]

it's your forum zinky...........pming now. i want some special privileges........:p

[zinkyusa]

guppy;452611 wrote: it's your forum zinky...........pming now. i want some special privileges........:p


what did you have in mind?:sneaky:

[DesignerGal]

zinkyusa;452627 wrote: what did you have in mind?:sneaky:


How about seminars on what exectly "drug fueled homsexual activity" includes! THat was my favorite part of that story, it just sounds funny. What about drug fueled heterosexual activity? Hubby and I sometimes get drunk and come home to have some nookie, is that bad????:D :wah:

[zinkyusa]

DesignerGal;452655 wrote: How about seminars on what exectly "drug fueled homsexual activity" includes! THat was my favorite part of that story, it just sounds funny. What about drug fueled heterosexual activity? Hubby and I sometimes get drunk and come home to have some nookie, is that bad????:D :wah:


hmmm, maybe one of them was using viagra?;)

[Adam Zapple]

Slade1;449113 wrote: I agree, it's always the ones who say that homosexuality is disgusting and sinful that end up having secret tendencies. I think it's called over compensating...


I think seriously there is something to be said for that. Is there something about the human psyche that makes us lash out against things were can't control yet dislike about ourselves. In other words, one may genuinely believe ones actions are wrong, yet be unable to stop engaging in said actions. Does this make us more prone to "protest too much"?

As an evangelical Christian I am glad he has been removed from ministry. I feel terribly sorry for his family, however. His wife, who has shown tremendous dignity and class through this thing, was nuked. And the guy who outed him said he did so partly for political reasons, he said he wanted to influence today's elections. (And he did fail a lie detecter test regarding some of his allegations for what it's worth). Haggert's, who I had not previously heard of, hypocrisy is in the fact that he preached righteousness while wallowing in sin. It's human certainly but he should never have let himself remain in that position knowing that he was involved in illegal and immoral conduct.

I don't think it is necessarily hypocritical to be gay yet oppose gay marriage. I'm a Christian but I'm not for a theocracy, does that make me a hypocrite? Haggart needed to be exposed but the motivation behind the man who outed him was equally dispicable.

[Ted]

The whole idea of original sin is not Biblically based. It was invented by Augustine who had his own sexual problems to deal with.

This concept is not even accepted by the Jews and they wrote the book.

Though it is a scape goat for anyone who is looking something on which to blame one's own personal behaviour. Nor original sin, no fall but "Original Blessing" in all that God created.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Clint]

It is troubling to me to see the words "pseudo-churches" used with the words of Jesus; "Neither do I condemn you."

Saying another man’s church is a “pseudo-church” is to condemn the other man’s church. It says the writer assumes the authority to say “my church and any church I approve of is the real thing and those I deem unfit are not”. It also demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the word “church”.

Graciously telling the leader of the church to go and sin no more while telling his followers they belong to a pseudo-church sends a very confusing message.

[telephoto lens]

When I first watched the video footage of the (now fallen) evangelist my first thoughts were: 'god what a queen'. And when I asked my girlfriend she stated her comments were: 'he's really gay'. This leads me to wonder how such an obviously gay man could fake all the members in this nationwide congregation? Perhaps the closeted gay evangelicals do not want to share their 'gaydar' with others and thus expose their secret. Also, it is obvious that these people - the non-gay closeted evangelicals, never hang around any gay people otherwise the redlight (pinklight) of recognition would be flashing.

[Clint]

telephoto lens;459594 wrote: When I first watched the video footage of the (now fallen) evangelist my first thoughts were: 'god what a queen'. And when I asked my girlfriend she stated her comments were: 'he's really gay'. This leads me to wonder how such an obviously gay man could fake all the members in this nationwide congregation? Perhaps the closeted gay evangelicals do not want to share their 'gaydar' with others and thus expose their secret. Also, it is obvious that these people - the non-gay closeted evangelicals, never hang around any gay people otherwise the redlight (pinklight) of recognition would be flashing.


Hmmm. Wellll...Hmmm. Maybe that's why they have gay bars. That way gays won't have to hang around evangelical congregations where someone might recognize them as a Christian.

[telephoto lens]

Clint;459622 wrote: Hmmm. Wellll...Hmmm. Maybe that's why they have gay bars. That way gays won't have to hang around evangelical congregations where someone might recognize them as a Christian.


All we need now is to have bars for evangelicals, hey, wait a minute, it might end up being the same bar!:yh_devil

[Clint]

telephoto lens;460259 wrote: All we need now is to have bars for evangelicals, hey, wait a minute, it might end up being the same bar!:yh_devil


Nahh. The gays wouldn't put up with the evangelicals in thier bar and they'd get upset when the evangelicals invited them to the evangelical bar. It'd be a mess.

[Slade1]

Atsila;450256 wrote: You have a fair amount of dirt in your neck of the kingdom. Get busy. From the top of your heap on down to the meanest of English society, you have need of Mr. Clean.


Eh?

We may have corruption here, but I must say that if Mr Haggard (or someone of his kind) came over here spouting his (now hypocritical) nonsense, the vast majority of the country would think him a complete tosser, and they would all be correct.

[Ted]

Clint:-6

I could give you one point. Perhaps I should have referred to them as pseudo-Christian churches.

What many have done today is to take what parts of the Bible they like, added in a few items, mistranslated some of the words and added in newer definitions that were not appropriate to the day they were originally mentioned. Some of these do not even use a dose of common sense in their approach to faith.

I condemn no one's Church. That is not my role. But I do call it as I see it.

One could make a very strong case that the reformers usurped the term Christian and created a new faith that is not Christian at all.

Add to all of this the fact that some so called Christian denominations have seen most others as pseudo-churches to begin with.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Clint]

Ted;464355 wrote: Clint:-6

I could give you one point. Perhaps I should have referred to them as pseudo-Christian churches.

What many have done today is to take what parts of the Bible they like, added in a few items, mistranslated some of the words and added in newer definitions that were not appropriate to the day they were originally mentioned. Some of these do not even use a dose of common sense in their approach to faith.

I condemn no one's Church. That is not my role. But I do call it as I see it.

One could make a very strong case that the reformers usurped the term Christian and created a new faith that is not Christian at all.

Add to all of this the fact that some so called Christian denominations have seen most others as pseudo-churches to begin with.

Shalom

Ted:-6


However, YOUR church is not a pseudo-church because YOU have the answers. Very well.

[Ted]

Clint:-6

That I have all the answers would be nice if it were so. However, after years of formal and informal education one comes to realize how little one really knows or understands.

Beyond that I do believe that I am entitled to my opinion which is based on a great deal of academic study. When I see inconsistencies between what is said or read and what is done I am right to think otherwise.

Absolutely none of us has all or even a few of the final answers concerning ultimate reality but a consistency between thinking and the wisdom of the ages certainly would indicate that we are heading in the right direction.

Jesus who is our measuring stick turned absolutely no one away. This is not true of many of his followers. Such behaviour is not of Christ.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Clint]

"Pseudo-church". That is what you call them. You imply they aren't really "church" in your opinion. It is passing judgment on them with the authority of the scholar you keep telling us you are.

Church and Assembly are the same Greek word, "ekklesia", meaning a group of people gathered to discuss the affairs of State. It was used of Israel and it was used of a riotous mob. It is also used to describe the whole of the company of the redeemed.

Today people even call buildings churches.

To apply "pseudo" to "church" is to demonstrate a misunderstanding of the word.

We know what you had in mind. It’s just odd that a scholar would create such a meaningless title.

[Ted]

Clint:-6

I have never claimed to be a scholar. I study the scholars' works.

No that is not a judgment. That is my opinion based on my own personal and very disturbing experiences. God alone is the judge and He alone will judge. My experiences are contrary to what I read in the Bible and have come to believe about the Divine.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Clint]

That's progress Ted. You are now using the Bible as authority for what you believe and what the Christian Church should look and act like.

[Ted]

Clint:-6

The church has three main authorities and several minor ones. The major ones include the "Bible", the traditions of the church, and to top it all off a good solid dose of common sense.

Without that good dose of common sense all kinds of ignorant stupidity goes on in the name of God: the Bible as a history book, the creative dancing to get around the discrepancies both internal and external, the belief in a God with a multiple personality disorder, homophobia, etc.

I know of a family that had a 5 week old child born with spina bifada. The so called pastor said to the parents during his sermon at the funeral that the child probably died because they had some unconfessed sin. When that family needed help the most this pseudo-christian church coped out. That poor woman never recovered from the loss and took that pain to her grave about 7 years ago. I know of what I speak. That child was my sister and that woman was my mother.

I have stated my opinion but God will ultimately be the judge.

Thank God I knew that this was not the Good News of Jesus Christ but a sin being perpetrated by a church in the name of God.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Clint]

Ted,

I am truley sorry you have had such a terrible experience. May God's peace be with you.

That is a very sad story about good people decieved by what I would call a cult with a power craving leader. In my opinion there was nothing Christian about it.

[Ted]

Clint:-6

Thanks.

I could tell other stories concerning this church as well but one should suffice.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[weinbeck]

Atsila;450253 wrote: Frolic in the smut, Zinky? You like that? What's the lesson here? No, it's not another smut puddle for your frolicking. They could have shoved him off to another church to sin some more and more and more, eh? Instead, his sins are where everyone can see them and he is being dealt with, but not for being homosexual. You a homophobe, Zinky? I'm surprised you didn't say Christ was one. Hey, he will deal with accusations whether against HIM or against those who belong to HIM.

Watch out, HE's comin' fer ya! hehehehehehe! :yh_rotfl :yh_loser

I see your forum is busy? :wah:


Over here in the UK few people have heard of him, but you all seem to have one thing in common - you all seem to revel in anyone's downfall. The bigger, the better. Wow, wouldn't you just have one hell of a field day if something smutty came out with Bill Graham. People like you would have been dissappointed had Jesus got off with a flogging. Maybe I'm an oddball, but I don't revel in anybody's downfall. Can you even begin to imaging the humiliation not just him, but his entire family are going through - let ye who hath not sinned cast the first stone. We ALL have skeletons in the closet!

[Ted]

weinbeck:-6

It is part of the American religious right. They seem to revel in anyone who "falls". Must make them feel good or something. I put falls in quotation marks because even that is subject to interpretation.

You should thank God they left the UK and brought their brand of Christianity with them, otherwise you would still have them over there. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

[guppy]

It's not that we revel in it. but when you are in a positon of authority or lead people , it is always big news to find out that they turn out to not be a true leader and have made a mockery of their position. imho. With leadership comes greater responsiblity to have a cleaner more honorable life.

[Ted]

guppy:-6

Yes they are leaders but they are also very human.

Whether or not what they did or did not do is always subject to interpretation. I like the quote weinbeck pointed out "neither do I condemn you". If our Lord can look at a "fallen" individual and exercise total forgiveness can any one of us do any less? I certainly can't propose to cast the first stone.

No one seemed to upset with JFK's reputed sexual dalliances and he was considered at great leader and a Christian at that.

Pat Robertson, supposedly a Christian leader calls for the assassination of the president of Venezuela and no one has called him on it.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Clint]

I remember when Dad told me if I got my head above the crowd people would start taking shots at it. I moved into some pretty high profile leadership positions after that and sure enough people took their shots. I was better prepared because of what Dad said. It's a sad part of human nature. It doesn't matter if your head is above the crowd as a religious leader or just public service, people will take the shots.

People have fallen from their high places in every walk of life. The higher the expectations of them were, the farther the fell.

Most (not all) religious leaders aren't asking for such high expectations. People assign the expectations to them then watch for them to fall short.

[Ted]

Clint:-6

Some excellent points.

I experienced the same as an educational leader in my career.

On the other hand I have been told, by parents, more than once that I ran a Christian school. My usual response was I never said anything about that.

They usually said something like we know but you do don't you.

I would smile and walk away.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Slade1]

weinbeck;467523 wrote: Over here in the UK few people have heard of him, but you all seem to have one thing in common - you all seem to revel in anyone's downfall. The bigger, the better. Wow, wouldn't you just have one hell of a field day if something smutty came out with Bill Graham. People like you would have been dissappointed had Jesus got off with a flogging. Maybe I'm an oddball, but I don't revel in anybody's downfall. Can you even begin to imaging the humiliation not just him, but his entire family are going through - let ye who hath not sinned cast the first stone. We ALL have skeletons in the closet!


I would never say that I haven't sinned, I have quite a few times, I quite enjoy a bit of sin now and again - put's hairs on your chest.

I must admit that I do revel in his downfall somewhat as I see him as a hate filled individual, from what I've picked up about him he was very ripe for a major humiliation, he got it, I laugh heartily at his misfortune. Couldn't happen to a nicer fella...

[Lulu2]

Seems to me the man set himself up for public humiliation--condemning the very behavior he wants and needs in private. I agree with Adam--it's very human to speak against that very thing we like least in ourselves. The (HUGE) error is to take a public stand while living a double life.

And he's done a great deal of damage to his family, in addition to his congregation. Too bad, really, because none of it should be necessary.

[.:TWIZTIDlMANSON:.]

hey i support love and you have no right to be bashing some one cuz they like it up their butt! (but seriously i am a supporter)

[acousticide]

The problem is how people with the help of churches agrandize themselves.

Why do the sheep keep looking to men instead of the Son of Man?

Everyone has a particular "Sin that so easily besets them."

For the preachers, the greatest fall would be to homosexuality which is the ultimate snub at God.

I have many 'Gay' friends, I do not preach to them or disdain them. We are to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

Arent you glad that the blood of Jesus covers ALL sin?

As far as SIN goes, if you are perfect in everything, but you speed and break the law, you are NO LESS worhty of condemnation than a murderer.

We should be looking at everyone as Jesus would. Compassionate, Nonjudgemental, loving, and open.

[Clint]

Revelation 19:11

[ The Coming of Christ ] And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

[Ted]

accousticide:-6

As far as I can see there is only one sin in homosexuality and that is the abuse they are subjected to by the rest of society including Christians.

Shalom

Ted:-6