Speaking in tongue

Discuss the Christian Faith.
Ted
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Post by Ted »

Pinky:-6

Good point. In fact he was a real s**t disturber and that is why he was crucified.

Shalom

Ted:-6
ARgi
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Post by ARgi »

ummmm.... i've done it before. the whole tongues thing. it's just gibberish...it happened when i accidently od'ed on some medication. it can happen to someone if they get really stoned...i've heard someone do it after drinking way too much whiskey.
Ted
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Post by Ted »

ARgi:-6

LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6
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weber
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Post by weber »

ARgi wrote: ummmm.... i've done it before. the whole tongues thing. it's just gibberish...it happened when i accidently od'ed on some medication. it can happen to someone if they get really stoned...i've heard someone do it after drinking way too much whiskey.


Ah yes, and some people can will themselves into that state of mind. Sometimes the belief is strong enough to do that.
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ARgi
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Post by ARgi »

weber wrote: Ah yes, and some people can will themselves into that state of mind. Sometimes the belief is strong enough to do that.


you mean like...psyching yourself out?



i was being made to scream and ****...freaky. i could feel my mouth being tugged against my will :lips: no control at all. it's not something i would like to happen again.
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weber
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Post by weber »

ARgi wrote: you mean like...psyching yourself out?



i was being made to scream and ****...freaky. i could feel my mouth being tugged against my will :lips: no control at all. it's not something i would like to happen again.


ummmm.... i've done it before. the whole tongues thing. it's just gibberish...it happened when i accidently od'ed on some medication. it can happen to someone if they get really stoned...i've heard someone do it after drinking way too much whiskey.


Sorry ARgi

The above which I was responding to did not sound to me like a serious happening as in your use of stoned and drinking way too much whiskey. This description and the original quote in this post do not sound like the same thing to me. I was responding to the state of stoned and drunk.:confused:
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
ARgi
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Post by ARgi »

weber wrote: Sorry ARgi

The above which I was responding to did not sound to me like a serious happening as in your use of stoned and drinking way too much whiskey. This description and the original quote in this post do not sound like the same thing to me. I was responding to the state of stoned and drunk.:confused:


they are one and the same, it only happened once-

and the other time was someone else with their grossly inebriated state, which is another story altogether.
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weber
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Post by weber »

ARgi wrote: they are one and the same, it only happened once-

and the other time was someone else with their grossly inebriated state, which is another story altogether.


But ARgi, I have been drunk and I actually was stoned once but not was I tugged at or pulled at or forced to anything or my tongue twisted. When I was drunk, it was like a dream if I remembered at all and when I was stoned, it was just like a waking dream, floating not forced.:confused:
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
ARgi
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Post by ARgi »

weber wrote: But ARgi, I have been drunk and I actually was stoned once but not was I tugged at or pulled at or forced to anything or my tongue twisted. When I was drunk, it was like a dream if I remembered at all and when I was stoned, it was just like a waking dream, floating not forced.:confused:


it doesn't happen always. not that i go around getting stoned or drunk all the time that i should know, lol ...

it's pretty rare in my experience with others who do get stoned and drunk all the time. the conditions have to be just right, i suppose.
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weber
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Post by weber »

ARgi wrote: it doesn't happen always. not that i go around getting stoned or drunk all the time that i should know, lol ...

it's pretty rare in my experience with others who do get stoned and drunk all the time. the conditions have to be just right, i suppose.


I hope you will forgive me but I cannot relate stoned or drunk to speaking tongues. Hallucinations maybe go with stoned or drunk. I had that.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
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Post by ARgi »

weber wrote: I hope you will forgive me but I cannot relate stoned or drunk to speaking tongues. Hallucinations maybe go with stoned or drunk. I had that.


i kid you not. and i've got witnesses to the fact. ;) it's a state of hysteria that makes your mind go berserk-blahlblah-lahlah-looo-hooo crazy.
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weber
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Post by weber »

ARgi wrote: i kid you not. and i've got witnesses to the fact. ;) it's a state of hysteria that makes your mind go berserk-blahlblah-lahlah-looo-hooo crazy.


I have no doubt in what you say about speaking tongue. What I doubt is that being drunk or stoned has anything to do with speaking tongues.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
ARgi
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Post by ARgi »

weber wrote: I have no doubt in what you say about speaking tongue. What I doubt is that being drunk or stoned has anything to do with speaking tongues.




true...

you can reach that state through any number of ways, and maybe some of those ways are more holy than others :-3
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weber
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Post by weber »

ARgi wrote: true...

you can reach that state through any number of ways, and maybe some of those ways are more holy than others :-3


I'm not feeling holy ARgi, that's not what I was saying.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
ARgi
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Post by ARgi »

weber wrote: I'm not feeling holy ARgi, that's not what I was saying.




i didn't say you were...i was making a joke-because it can be induced spiritually or with drugs.
nick1289
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Post by nick1289 »

Hello, I saw this post and would share a study. It helps to understand that is something that Satan uses to deceive.

worldwide.familyradio.org/zusa/graphical/literature/tongues
Ted
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Post by Ted »

I just noticed that the Google ads above the threads list contains an ad for speaking in tongues from eBay.

If one hasn't done it yet just go to eBay and they may be able to help you.

I couldn't resist. It was just too good to pass up.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

nick1289 wrote: Hello, I saw this post and would share a study. It helps to understand that is something that Satan uses to deceive.

worldwide.familyradio.org/zusa/graphical/literature/tongues


Satan uses light, Angels and those claiming to be prophets as well. Should we reject light, Angels and anything anyone says that is represented as truth from God? If that's the case, the author of the this study shouldn't be listended to...he may be adding to the Bible with his opinions.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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Post by twizzel »

nick1289 wrote: Hello, I saw this post and would share a study. It helps to understand that is something that Satan uses to deceive.

worldwide.familyradio.org/zusa/graphical/literature/tongues
You may be right but I think it is a case of the emporers clothes no one wants to be the one to say you are talking gibberrish to the person who say's they are talking in tounges.
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Post by nick1289 »

Hi twizzle, I think it may have to do with good bible study, it's our heavenly language, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, the bible with itself is it's own interpreter, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:11b. The bible is from God and he made known all that he had wanted to.

So if someone says they had received a message from God it means they had gotten it from somewhere else then the bible.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

God speaks to me and it isn't always through the Bible. We are created in His image. With that in mind, we think how we communicate. Very little of what we communicate is in written form. The words we use are also a small part how we communicate. We communicate through what we do and how we do it. If we are perfect (like me:wah:) we will never let one form of communication contradict the others. In God's case, the communications we recieve from Him must all be checked and cross checked to be sure they match up.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
nick1289
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Post by nick1289 »

Clint wrote: God speaks to me and it isn't always through the Bible. We are created in His image. With that in mind, we think how we communicate. Very little of what we communicate is in written form. The words we use are also a small part how we communicate. We communicate through what we do and how we do it. If we are perfect (like me:wah:) we will never let one form of communication contradict the others. In God's case, the communications we recieve from Him must all be checked and cross checked to be sure they match up.




Hi Clint, I hope you aren't confusing the topic. Tongues are something that is saying they are receiving some kind of additional message from God. We know that it is not from God as he said that he is not adding or taking away from his book. There are signs and wonders gospels though,

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Thank God for those verses he put right at the end of the bible. Otherwise we would never know if God was still giving messages outside of the bible or not.

His word is true and faithful.
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

Perhaps you should re-read John 16:12-15. Jesus clearly tells us that there is still much for us to learn but that we will be presented with it as we become able to comprehend it. Thus the Holy Spirit will continue to tell us many things throughout time as we become able to understand.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

As far as prophecy goes I think we will have to agree to disagree. As I said many scholars do not believe that the prophets were talking about any time in the distant future. The same is true of Bible translator J. B. Phillips who is of the same opinion.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by twizzel »

nick1289 wrote: Hi twizzle, I think it may have to do with good bible study, it's our heavenly language, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, the bible with itself is it's own interpreter, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:11b. The bible is from God and he made known all that he had wanted to.

So if someone says they had received a message from God it means they had gotten it from somewhere else then the bible.
All I know is that my ex claims to be a born again and reads the bible all the time and she claims to speak in tonges, however her tone when she speaks in plain English is very intolerant most ungod like in fact I still think it is just gibberrish.
Ted
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Post by Ted »

twizzel:-6

Sometimes tone and body language convey far more than words.

Shalom

Ted:-6
nick1289
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Post by nick1289 »

I looked at the John 16 verses. Guiding into all truth speaking of Christ is opening our understanding of the scriptures, not God giving more scriptures as additional messages from God in a tongue. Some people say this as progressive revelation. There's a verse in Daniel where it says that God seals up the understanding till the time of the end.

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Lu 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Lu 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?



Thanks for the input.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

nick1289 wrote: I looked at the John 16 verses. Guiding into all truth speaking of Christ is opening our understanding of the scriptures, not God giving more scriptures as additional messages from God in a tongue. Some people say this as progressive revelation. There's a verse in Daniel where it says that God seals up the understanding till the time of the end.

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Lu 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Lu 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?



Thanks for the input.


Shall we go all round the loop again?

Given that the Bible, as it stands, was put together by a committee 300 years after the events, how do we know that it contains all of the scriptures referenced in Luke 24:27.

The other two quotes were not specific to the question of additional data.

Even Luke 24:27 is saying all of the scriptures tell of God - not the scriptures tell all of God. God is infinite and unknowable - saying that the scriptures define the whole of God is surely blasphemy?
Ted
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

I'm not suggesting that it necessarily means open the scriptures up. What it is saying is that as we continue to grow and develop as humans there are things that will continue to need to be explained and understood. This clearly means that we still have new things to learn.

As to opening up the scriptures to more additions, I have no problem with that. After all God is still speaking to us and leading us into new things.

A good example is the ancient thought that epilepsy was caused by demon possession. We know better now. What other things have we learned since then and what other things are there still to learn.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nick1289 »

How is opening up the scriptures more additions? He did not add to it he just explained it with what had already been given.

Still speaking as, it has all been written, we just have to search it out.

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

nick1289 wrote: How is opening up the scriptures more additions? He did not add to it he just explained it with what had already been given.

Still speaking as, it has all been written, we just have to search it out.

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Again, how do any of these quotes say that there is no truth outside the scripture? The most they say is that the scripture tells of God, which we all agree on.
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Post by nick1289 »

Truth outside of scripture regarding what? Maybe there's secular history of records and of time, but the scripture is the authority, those things could be wrong.

:)
Ted
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

I do not believe the Bible to be the absolute inerrant "Word of God". That particular phrase belongs to One only, "The Word made flesh".

The scriptures are a very human book written by men as they express their experiences of the Divine. The Bible becomes, for Christians, the "Word of God" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the very human words of the Bible not by virtue of its authorship.

When considering the gospels one has to realize that the writers, whomever they were, were expressing the developing tradition of the day. They wrote what the Church had come to believe about this Jesus. The gospels are not biography. They are developing tradition to the time of writing.

Once the people had experienced this Jesus they came to believe as I do that he was indeed the Messiah and so in writing the scriptures they went to the OT and used the words of the OT in writing up their interpretation of Jesus. This is called midrash. In other words the stories were written up to show prophesy fulfilled.

Jesus was likely born in Nazareth but the ancient scriptures said the Messiah would come from Bethlehem so that is how the story was written. This is not dishonest but a style of writing to make a point. There were no wise men, no trip to Bethlehem, no star, no angel choirs, no flight into Egypt. These were all prophesied about the coming of the Messiah and since they felt that Jesus was he that is how they wrote the story.

Thus I see no problem in adding other valuable sacred writings to the scriptures if Christians so desired.

Shalom

Ted:-6
nick1289
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Post by nick1289 »

Ok Ted, thanks for the information.

Here is what God's word says,



2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The bible is not written by mans own private interperetation or understanding. God had given them the words to write down as he wanted. Here is an example,

Jeremiah 36:1 1 ¶ And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.

3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.



It is God's book, not what man thought up would be good.

The understanding of God's word regarding his son's birth in Bethlemhem needs a little help. He was born there as the scriptures say, Matthew 2:1. And when it says they sought to kill him, God told Mary and Joseph to go to Egypt. When God called his son out of Egypt, they had went to Galilee Nazareth, he was not born there.

Matthew 2:13 ¶ And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matthew 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Mt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.



Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.



Since the scriptures have been fulfilled and are completed, he is no longer giving dreams or speaking from heaven. He speaks through his word the bible.



Thanks again.
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

That is what the Bible says. However, one must understand how it came about and the changes that were made in the Bible over the years by editors and the early church.

I do not believe the Bible is the absolute and inerrant word of God. Jesus himself is the "Word". A book is not the word. It is a human endeavour. Sure they were inspired to write and so was Dostoyefsky (Sp?) in the same way.

The Bible is a compilation of ancient writings and is made up of: Myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, theology, philosophy and a few kernels of history thrown it. It was written in an ancient style called midrash which was a style of writing that used an earlier story to interpret a later event in the lives of the writers. In some ways midrash may be called parable. For example "The Good Semaritan is a fictional story made up by Jesus to present some profound truths. It is not an historical event. The NT in many ways followes the OT in its style of writing.

Midrash makes a great deal of use of metaphor. It uses metaphor because there is absolutely no language on earth that can come even close to describing or defining the Divine. We lack the language and the conceptualization ability to truly understand God.

The Bible is not a history book. It is primarily a religious book. It was never meant to be taken literally.

If it is not open to private interpretation than how is it to be interpreted? Is that not what you are doing especially when you admit quite openly that the church leaders do not agree with you? Personally I have no problem with that.

My knowledge and beliefs come from years of study both of the scriptures in both Hebrew and Greek and under the guidance of many learned scholarly men. Translation and interpretation were part of my formal training. Could I be wrong? Sure I could just as anyone else could be. I don't believe I am but nor do I believe that I know all there is to know. There is so much to learn and in reality so little time to learn it in.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nick1289 »

If you do not believe it is the absolute and inerrant word of God, then your Jesus cannot save you.

However if you believe that he is aboslute and inerrant, the perfect word of God, then by all means trust in him.
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

I have absolute trust and faith in the Almighty God manifested in Jesus of Nazareth.'

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nick1289 »

If you believe in him then you would trust in his word the bible. He is the word.

1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

The Bible is not "The Word". Jesus is "The Word". John is very clear about this in his first chapter.

That being said I will remind you that the Bible has clear instructions about judging anyone. That is God's role alone and belongs to no human being.

Shalom

Ted
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Post by nick1289 »

The word that John is giving is from God, but you don't trust God is what you're saying.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

bbl maybe.
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Post by Ted »

nick:-6

I have repeatedly said that I do trust the "Word of God". That word is the "word made flesh" one Jesus of Nazareth.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nick1289 »

The only way we're going to hear about Jesus of Nazareth is if we read what has been written. There's no other way we're going to hear about Jesus.

The words of scripture are given by the Holy Ghost, God, Jesus.

Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

nick1289 wrote: The only way we're going to hear about Jesus of Nazareth is if we read what has been written. There's no other way we're going to hear about Jesus.

The words of scripture are given by the Holy Ghost, God, Jesus.

Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


The difference is the degree of absoluteness accorded to your sources.

Is the Bible inerrant and the unquestionable word of God or is it man's best effort at collecting the word of God into one place.

This gives a huge difference in outlook.

I side with Ted. The Bible was written by man and has man's errors in it - this, to me, is demonstrable in the divergence of the text over time. Which Bible are you reading? It makes a big difference because of the differences introduced by man.
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Post by nick1289 »

I think I know what you're saying Bryn Mawr. The differences I have found, I'm looking at the translation with the online bible, are sometimes a lot. The most I've seen there was a word that got translated into eleven english words! :(

But all is well I did a retranslation. :) It's always good to look at what the translators did, it could be wrong. The verse was in Isa 8:21 the word was hungry ,

and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry

Isa 8:21, Passing over shall be hard (with) hungryness, hunger (with) wrath making light (of the) king (and) God, turning upward.



Edit- not really an error, I just didn't like the extra flow words.
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Bryn Mawr
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Speaking in tongue

Post by Bryn Mawr »

nick1289 wrote: I think I know what you're saying Bryn Mawr. The differences I have found, I'm looking at the translation with the online bible, are sometimes a lot. The most I've seen there was a word that got translated into eleven english words! :(

But all is well I did a retranslation. :) It's always good to look at what the translators did, it could be wrong. The verse was in Isa 8:21 the word was hungry ,

and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry

Isa 8:21, Passing over shall be hard (with) hungryness, hunger (with) wrath making light (of the) king (and) God, turning upward.



Edit- not really an error, I just didn't like the extra flow words.


Then consider that the "original" you used to check was in itself a translation copied inumerable times by hand and based on an oral tradition passed through several generations and you see that what is written is moore the work of man than the inerrant word of God.
Ted
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Speaking in tongue

Post by Ted »

Bryn Mawr:-6

Not only that but it is well known and demonstrated that the Bible has been edited over time as well as the early church making deliberate changes and additions.

We do not have the autographs. Your comment about copying is correct. Even copying is known to have introduced changes.

Among the oldest manuscripts available there are multiple copies of the different "books" and each with variants. In fact in the NT alone there are some 400 000 variants. ("Misquoting Jesus", Bart Ehrman).

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted
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Speaking in tongue

Post by Ted »

nick:-6

If you did a retranslation could you please tell us what documents you used.

Shalom

Ted:-6
nick1289
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Speaking in tongue

Post by nick1289 »

The KJV had used the superior hebrew and greek in which it was written. This is said because the Latin bible did not use the older ancient language.

The problem is we don't think it's God's book and that man could out smart God by changing it some how. The only thing we have to worry about is the translation work from the original manuscripts from which Paul or the other penmen had written. The translation into other languages.

Certainly when each book of the bible compares so well with the whole rest of the bible, as Christ compares scripture of the OT telling of himself, the fulling of prophecy, man has not changed it.

This is also important for the biblical calender. We could not arrive at an accurate date if it was changed.

Our God was able to preserve his word, man cannot frustrate God.
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