The Second Coming

Discuss the Christian Faith.
Ted
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Post by Ted »

Charles:-6

You are correct. We are to be the best we can.

Personally I don't care if folks walk around completely nude. It is not my style but hey whatever one wants.

Gwen Jacobs at the University of Guelph pushed the law by walking around downtown topless. She eventually won, in the supreme court I think. So it is no longer illegal in Canada, for a woman to go around topless. I see nothing wrong with the birthday suit. That is how we were made. I fail to see anything obscene about the human body.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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weber
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Post by weber »

Ted wrote: Charles:-6

You are correct. We are to be the best we can.

Personally I don't care if folks walk around completely nude. It is not my style but hey whatever one wants.

Gwen Jacobs at the University of Guelph pushed the law by walking around downtown topless. She eventually won, in the supreme court I think. So it is no longer illegal in Canada, for a woman to go around topless. I see nothing wrong with the birthday suit. That is how we were made. I fail to see anything obscene about the human body.

Shalom

Ted:-6


If we were born to be naked all the time, in private, in public, yeah I can see walking around nude. But we live in a society that is traditionally always clothed so that a nude body becomes very much an attraction, for people to get sexually excited perhaps. But that is for the young sexy bodies. I wonder how many of us would be interested in walking around seeing old bodies, huge bodies. I'd willingly go back to full bathing suits. I think it would be fun. Not the wool stuff though.:rolleyes:
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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Ted
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Post by Ted »

weber:-6

There are many societies in tropical regions who wear no clothing a good deal of the time. They don't seem to have a problem controlling their. . . um . . . er. . . emotions. We wear clothing generally because we live in a climate where to do otherwise would not be too healthy. They keep us warm. There are folks who join naturist clubs and seem to have no problem with things. LOL.

The problem is that far too many men seem to have their brains between their legs. LOL

Like I said it is not my style but for some it is and I have no problem with that.

Shalom

Ted:-6
charles_r51
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Post by charles_r51 »

weber wrote: If we were born to be naked all the time, in private, in public, yeah I can see walking around nude. But we live in a society that is traditionally always clothed so that a nude body becomes very much an attraction, for people to get sexually excited perhaps. But that is for the young sexy bodies. I wonder how many of us would be interested in walking around seeing old bodies, huge bodies. I'd willingly go back to full bathing suits. I think it would be fun. Not the wool stuff though.:rolleyes:


weber

most societies in the pacific basin and many in the se asian areas wouldn't wear clothes, or a minmimum of them before the arrival of the europeans who,, when trying to christianize them, forced them to wear clothing to which the euroipeans became accustomed to. and those europeans would force the cultures to adapt or be slaughtered.

fortunately, there are some cultures, mainly in the heavy jungle arewas in south america and on some pacific islands where the natives still go nearly nude once reaching puberty, but naked until then.

it wouldn't fly imn washington d.c. though. snow tends to be abit cool in winter.:-4
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Post by charles_r51 »

Ted wrote: weber:-6

There are many societies in tropical regions who wear no clothing a good deal of the time. They don't seem to have a problem controlling their. . . um . . . er. . . emotions. We wear clothing generally because we live in a climate where to do otherwise would not be too healthy. They keep us warm. There are folks who join naturist clubs and seem to have no problem with things. LOL.

The problem is that far too many men seem to have their brains between their legs. LOL

Like I said it is not my style but for some it is and I have no problem with that.

Shalom

Ted:-6


and some even eat you!:-4
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weber
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Post by weber »

Ted wrote: weber:-6

There are many societies in tropical regions who wear no clothing a good deal of the time. They don't seem to have a problem controlling their. . . um . . . er. . . emotions. We wear clothing generally because we live in a climate where to do otherwise would not be too healthy. They keep us warm. There are folks who join naturist clubs and seem to have no problem with things. LOL.

The problem is that far too many men seem to have their brains between their legs. LOL

Like I said it is not my style but for some it is and I have no problem with that.

Shalom

Ted:-6


Do you live in those places Ted?

Neither do I. How often do you visit there? Have you ever lived in those places. It is totally unrelated to what I was talking about. There is nowhere in Canada that people live naked, no places I know of. As far as I know, I never studied about any places in the United States where people live naked. England they wear clothing. Australia they wear clothing except perhaps in the outbacks. Natives and the like. Totally unrelated to what I was talking about. Have you lived your life naked? That is what I was talking about.
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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weber
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Post by weber »

charles_r51 wrote: weber

most societies in the pacific basin and many in the se asian areas wouldn't wear clothes, or a minmimum of them before the arrival of the europeans who,, when trying to christianize them, forced them to wear clothing to which the euroipeans became accustomed to. and those europeans would force the cultures to adapt or be slaughtered.

fortunately, there are some cultures, mainly in the heavy jungle arewas in south america and on some pacific islands where the natives still go nearly nude once reaching puberty, but naked until then.

it wouldn't fly imn washington d.c. though. snow tends to be abit cool in winter.:-4


I repeat as I did with Ted.

I wasn't talking about natives. How many of us here live naked like natives.

Do you live in those places Ted?

Neither do I. How often do you visit there? Have you ever lived in those places. It is totally unrelated to what I was talking about. There is nowhere in Canada that people live naked, no places I know of. As far as I know, I never studied about any places in the United States where people live naked. England they wear clothing. Australia they wear clothing except perhaps in the outbacks. Natives and the like. Totally unrelated to what I was talking about. Have you lived your life naked? That is what I was talking about.

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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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weber
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Post by weber »

I wish you guys would be reasonable and make some sense. Just because the natives do it has nothing to do with us. And we don't wear clothing to keep warm. We still wear clothing in the summertime.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



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charles_r51
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Post by charles_r51 »

weber wrote: I repeat as I did with Ted.

I wasn't talking about natives. How many of us here live naked like natives.

Do you live in those places Ted?

Neither do I. How often do you visit there? Have you ever lived in those places. It is totally unrelated to what I was talking about. There is nowhere in Canada that people live naked, no places I know of. As far as I know, I never studied about any places in the United States where people live naked. England they wear clothing. Australia they wear clothing except perhaps in the outbacks. Natives and the like. Totally unrelated to what I was talking about. Have you lived your life naked? That is what I was talking about.

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i have visited some of them and no i don't live naked, it woiuld get to cold in winter, and to hot in summer. and the police frown on such things during spring and fall!:D :-4
charles_r51
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Post by charles_r51 »

weber wrote: I wish you guys would be reasonable and make some sense. Just because the natives do it has nothing to do with us. And we don't wear clothing to keep warm. We still wear clothing in the summertime.


i think its a cultural thing, don't you?:driving: :-4 :D
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weber
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Post by weber »

Yo Charles, my friend:-6

good to see you:-4
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



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charles_r51
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Post by charles_r51 »

weber wrote: Yo Charles, my friend:-6

good to see you:-4


missed you here. catch anything while on vacation, besides a cold?:D
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Post by weber »

charles_r51 wrote: i think its a cultural thing, don't you?


Yo mean the crazy fever:-3 :cool: :yh_youkid :D
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



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Post by weber »

charles_r51 wrote: missed you here. catch anything while on vacation, besides a cold?:D


Glad you missed me but what's this about a cold. Oh dam it must be all the going around naked:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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Ted
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Post by Ted »

The point I am making is that as charles says, it is a cultural thing. Unfortunately the well meaning but ill informed missionaries interfered with many other cultures trying to instill a false morality. Much damage was done and I am not just referring to clothing or lack thereof. These folks had a healthy attitude to life and the earth and that healthy attitude was destroyed.

Of course I don't go outside naked. For one thing it would not be acceptable here. However, the first humans did not wear clothing and had no need to as the climate they lived in was quite suited to that.

The first humans began to wear clothing when they migrated to colder climates, not for any reason of modesty but for self preservation.

My contention is that there is nothing obscene or wrong with the human body. It is the false moralities that some societies created as time went on. I've often seen news clips from India where some religous men do parade in the nude at times. It does not seem to bother anyone there. When I see such news clips or National Geographic programmes which show folks from parts of the world where clothing is optional, I am not in the least offended.

It is exactly the same problem that folks of alternate sexual orientations are faced with. Well meaning but ill informed folks do a great deal of harm in their homophobic attitude.

I wonder what this has to do with the second coming; not that it really matters. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by weber »

Ted wrote: The point I am making is that as charles says, it is a cultural thing. Unfortunately the well meaning but ill informed missionaries interfered with many other cultures trying to instill a false morality. Much damage was done and I am not just referring to clothing or lack thereof. These folks had a healthy attitude to life and the earth and that healthy attitude was destroyed.

Of course I don't go outside naked. For one thing it would not be acceptable here. However, the first humans did not wear clothing and had no need to as the climate they lived in was quite suited to that.

The first humans began to wear clothing when they migrated to colder climates, not for any reason of modesty but for self preservation.

My contention is that there is nothing obscene or wrong with the human body. It is the false moralities that some societies created as time went on. I've often seen news clips from India where some religous men do parade in the nude at times. It does not seem to bother anyone there. When I see such news clips or National Geographic programmes which show folks from parts of the world where clothing is optional, I am not in the least offended.

It is exactly the same problem that folks of alternate sexual orientations are faced with. Well meaning but ill informed folks do a great deal of harm in their homophobic attitude.

I wonder what this has to do with the second coming; not that it really matters. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6


I am sorry Ted. I didn't do anything to the aborginals and I would never want to and I think the human body is beautiful but I would not stand naked in front of you and I wouldn't want you naked in front of me. I am sorry I had anything to say at all.

Oh and I am not the one that took it off track from the Second Coming. If I am not mistaken I tried to get it back on.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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weber
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Post by weber »

I am sorry for that outburst but I just at that time realized that CC had died and even though I didn't know her very well, it punched the stuffin' right out of me.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



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Ted
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Post by Ted »

weber:-6

Of course we are not going to behave like that. In our society it is unacceptable. It is also unacceptable to us personally.

As for going off topic, I don't care. Some of the best discussion comes when we get off topic. I am in a discussion group here where I live. We start on a topic but often end up so far off that we actually start to laugh. However, it makes it more interesting. Sometimes the topic is just a springboard.

Of course, personally, you did nothing to the aborigines. Neither have I for that matter. But here in Canada we are making every effort to right the wrongs of the past. We are moving towards healing and brotherhood.

BTW please don't stop contributing to the discussions. It adds interest as well as we each learn from others. If you quit it would be one less source of knowledge.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by weber »

Thanks Ted

I won't stop posting anywhere. I love the camaraderie here. It is lovely, so much that I get to cry over the death of someone I hardly knew at all. And be angry words, apologize and be forgiven, sometimes before I even ask.....rather a Christlike place wouldn't you say. Now I go to lay me down to sleep. Thank you.:-6 :-4
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Ted
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Post by Ted »

weber:-6

You are absolutely correct about the comraderie here. It is outstanding. I've met a lot of interesting people here. We don't always agree but we can still enjoy each others company as well as what they have to offer.

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted
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Post by Ted »

Now back to the second coming. There are of course lots of descriptions and projections in the Bible. By the very nature of the topic and the writers they are purely human creations.

I do believe in the second coming since Jesus apparently believed that would ultimately happe. As well the Jewish folks have been expecting the Messiah for thousands of years. I have other reasons as well but that should suffice for now.

I don't expect it will be anything like the descriptions. In fact I'm not even convinced it will be an earth shaking event. I strongly suspect that at our death we are received by God. As Marcus Borg says we do not die into nothingness. We die into God. (The Heart of Christianity). The Anglican "Book of Alternative Services" very clearly states that we do not know what happens at death. We have our hope as demonstrated by Jesus and our trust in God. So I leave that to God.

Our job as Christians is to promote the kingdom of God here on earth. It is an egalitarian kingdom in which God rules and justice and kindliness are paramount. What happens after death is God's business.

I also accept what Peter said in Acts 10. "In every nation all who do what is right and love God are acceptable to Him." If this is the case then there will be plenty of others there besides Christians. One might also read Matt. 25:31ff to extend that even further.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nvalleyvee »

charles_r51 wrote: :-5 people have achoice. it's not anyones fault they keep making the same one.:-4


ALL faith is a choice of heart and soul.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by charles_r51 »

charles_r51 wrote: i think its a cultural thing, don't you?:driving: :-4 :D


culture smulture. it's the old prudes who take all the fun outta life. some of those old gals still wear long dresses and hate girls in slacks. they'd all have heart arrest if someone mooned them.

but all in all, culture has a lot to do with it. i think we need to change the culture and then we could all - oh mustn't think about that stuff, should i? :D
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Post by charles_r51 »

nvalleyvee wrote: ALL faith is a choice of heart and soul.


toobad so many people think its how much will it cost to get into heaven. and think by giving a lot, they get a better place in heaven. unfortunate, but true far more often than most think.:-4 :yh_rotfl :-4
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Post by nvalleyvee »

I think there are two aspects to faith. One is a here and now aspect. We are to live in the here and now and look after all of creation in a proper and caring way. The second aspect is a belief in some form of spiritual existence after death. This is a hope and is called that in the Christian Bible. Christians see in Jesus of Nazareth the indication that such is the case.

YES......there are 2 aspects of faith .......One is a here and now aspect. We are to live in the here and now and look after all of creation in a proper and caring way. The second aspect is a belief in some form of spiritual existence after death.

My goodness Ted.......this is the soul belief of every person on Earth. I so agree with you but leave out the Jesus aspect.

Why cannot every loving, caring, working human carry this in their own heart and soul. Does there have to be a Jesus figure to carry us to the divine? Does there? Can we not just worship in our own way and be transprted to a heavenly place? Can we not by our human delvings be transported?
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by charles_r51 »

Ted wrote: Now back to the second coming. There are of course lots of descriptions and projections in the Bible. By the very nature of the topic and the writers they are purely human creations.

I do believe in the second coming since Jesus apparently believed that would ultimately happe. As well the Jewish folks have been expecting the Messiah for thousands of years. I have other reasons as well but that should suffice for now.

I don't expect it will be anything like the descriptions. In fact I'm not even convinced it will be an earth shaking event. I strongly suspect that at our death we are received by God. As Marcus Borg says we do not die into nothingness. We die into God. (The Heart of Christianity). The Anglican "Book of Alternative Services" very clearly states that we do not know what happens at death. We have our hope as demonstrated by Jesus and our trust in God. So I leave that to God.

Our job as Christians is to promote the kingdom of God here on earth. It is an egalitarian kingdom in which God rules and justice and kindliness are paramount. What happens after death is God's business.

I also accept what Peter said in Acts 10. "In every nation all who do what is right and love God are acceptable to Him." If this is the case then there will be plenty of others there besides Christians. One might also read Matt. 25:31ff to extend that even further.

Shalom

Ted:-6


two interesting books about life after death, the egyptian and tibetan books of the dead, both describe what is to happen after death, and prior to getting into , for lack of a better word, heaven. concepts of an after life are present in all societial groups from almost everywhere on earth. only in christianity is it limited to one life, the others being more or less desrptive of more than one.

promoting of a god on earth is something common to many belief systems, but it doesn't seem to prevent the prevalent social instability. it's a shame , but that is how things currently are.:-4 :D
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Post by nvalleyvee »

I know there is a great gift within the heart and soul of each and every one of us. It makes us better than we think we can be......it makes us better people....each and every day. We just need to get there and make it a part of our lives.

OK - I get to say I want to say the f word and be mean to some people........I try not to do that..............I really try not to do that.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by charles_r51 »

nvalleyvee wrote: I know there is a great gift within the heart and soul of each and every one of us. It makes us better than we think we can be......it makes us better people....each and every day. We just need to get there and make it a part of our lives.

OK - I get to say I want to say the f word and be mean to some people........I try not to do that..............I really try not to do that.


there are far to many who deny their gift, and choose not to be better, but to act solely for themselves. :-4 :-4 :D
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Post by Ted »

nvalleyvee:-6

As a Christian pluralist I accept the validity of all the faiths. The first part of that is "Christian". I used Jesus simply because for Christians we see in the Christ of faithdisplayed our hope for the future.

A careful reading of Matt 25:31ff will confirm what you have said.

I see no reason not to use the name Jesus since we accept the Hindus using the name Shiva and the Muslims Allah and the Buddhists, Buddah. As I respect others I would also hope they would respect me. I do not condemn their faith nor do I condemn them using the names of their important people. I would expect the same courtesy from them as well.

You do not have to use the name Jesus and I have never asked you too so please respect my rights as I respect others. I am a Christian along with being a pluralist.

We must each walk our own path on this journey. We can either do it in the company of others or we can go it alone. I have made my choice. It is a personal and passionate choice. No one has the right to criticise my journey and I have no right to criticize another's.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Ted »

Charles:-6

You are correct that their faiths do not seem to prevent bad behaviour, for want of a better term.

It is rather interesting though. Jesus clearly expected that. It is well presented in his parable of the mustard seed. It starts out small and eventually grows larger. There are several places around the world where folks of all faiths are making every effort to bring about the "Kingdom of God" by whatever name. Will it eventually succeed? I don't know but such a view of life is worth striving for. If it does eventually succeed it will most certainly not be in our life time or many in the future. No one can predict with any accuracy what the future, near or distant, holds for mankind.

I do think one think is important. If we don't change soon it will be far too late and all of human kind will be doomed.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Ted wrote: nvalleyvee:-6

As a Christian pluralist I accept the validity of all the faiths. The first part of that is "Christian". I used Jesus simply because for Christians we see in the Christ of faithdisplayed our hope for the future.

A careful reading of Matt 25:31ff will confirm what you have said.

I see no reason not to use the name Jesus since we accept the Hindus using the name Shiva and the Muslims Allah and the Buddhists, Buddah. As I respect others I would also hope they would respect me. I do not condemn their faith nor do I condemn them using the names of their important people. I would expect the same courtesy from them as well.

You do not have to use the name Jesus and I have never asked you too so please respect my rights as I respect others. I am a Christian along with being a pluralist.

We must each walk our own path on this journey. We can either do it in the company of others or we can go it alone. I have made my choice. It is a personal and passionate choice. No one has the right to criticise my journey and I have no right to criticize another's.

Shalom

Ted:-6


As I said before .....we respect one anothers faith and belief. I am quite sure we will meet in the afterlife and enjoy a diet pepsi.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by Ted »

nvalleyvee:-6

That sounds fine to me. I hope to meet a lot of other as well. There have been many in my life whom I dearly loved and many wise men and women I would love to meet.

Maybe I'll even slip in a cold beer or a scotch. Who knows. My companion and many of his followers enjoyed a good glass of wine or two or three or. . . oh who knows?

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Sorry if I offended you..............I doubt I did..............

So let us tipple a glass together...........your spouse and mine......
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Ted
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Post by Ted »

nvalleyvee:-6

No offense taken.

I do drink quite a bit of diet pepsi or coke since I am a diabetic. Once in a while I do like a good drink but my stomach has been telling me, lately, that it is not appreciated down there. LOL Listen to the old bod.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by weber »

ai go away for a half and hour and look what happens. Two pages have gone by. Gracious. Let's all make up and have some wine , beer, gin. rum. or my faborite, rye whiskey, black label. Let's go for it. Fun Time....:guitarist :driving:
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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Ted
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Post by Ted »

weber:-6

That does tend to happen here. Today has been especially busy.

BTW I thought you were off to bed. LOL.

My turn to go off to bed and I won't be back until tomorrow after my blood test.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by weber »

Couldn't sleep Ted. I am still so upset about CC. Oh Gawd, here I go again. :-1 Women, I don't know how I got to be one.:-3
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



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Post by charles_r51 »

Ted wrote: Charles:-6

You are correct that their faiths do not seem to prevent bad behaviour, for want of a better term.

It is rather interesting though. Jesus clearly expected that. It is well presented in his parable of the mustard seed. It starts out small and eventually grows larger. There are several places around the world where folks of all faiths are making every effort to bring about the "Kingdom of God" by whatever name. Will it eventually succeed? I don't know but such a view of life is worth striving for. If it does eventually succeed it will most certainly not be in our life time or many in the future. No one can predict with any accuracy what the future, near or distant, holds for mankind.

I do think one think is important. If we don't change soon it will be far too late and all of human kind will be doomed.

Shalom

Ted:-6


it may be much sooner than anyone realizes. if the mayan prophesies are correct, the end of this age is dec 12, 2012.

if nostradamus is correctly interpreted, it would be about that same time. and if cayce was accurate, physical changes to the earth will be horrendous in 2012 or 13.

to say no one has been able to foresee certain events is, in itself, an inaccuracy.

many people have been able to foresee certain occurances with a great deal of accuracy as to place and time, but many more have been erroneous timewise, and often locationwise, but accuracy about types of events is fair to good, with some, though not all and not at the same time.

as for man changing in attitude, i think that he's always changing, though not always to the benefit of all, and often to the detriment of most. but that may change drastically if events as i see them continue unabated. someone, somewhere, is always trying to gai at the expense of many, nad it seems to becoming an even more self-centered society all ovcer the globe. everyone out for himself, and to heck with the rest of the world.

religion is constantly in strife with itself, and others, nations are trying to get away from the welfare of the people and become the religious state and all that. if things continue as they are, man will self-destruct and send himself back into the stone age. that would really not be the better path, but man will have to make the choice eventuall. i just hope he makes the one which makes all men equal, and not just a chosen handful of survivors.:-4 :-4
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Post by charles_r51 »

:wah: weber,

can we have a vodka martini, extra,extra, dry? i can only have one so i want something i like besides a cool brew.:-3 :-4
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weber
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Post by weber »

charles_r51 wrote: :wah: weber,

can we have a vodka martini, extra,extra, dry? i can only have one so i want something i like besides a cool brew.:-3 :-4


Just put in your order and I'll be barmaid, extra, extra dry in a monster stemware glass coming up
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
charles_r51
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Post by charles_r51 »

weber wrote: Just put in your order and I'll be barmaid, extra, extra dry in a monster stemware glass coming up



with 2 olives, ifyou please! the food'll help me stay sober.:driving: :D
seekerw
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Post by seekerw »

Ted wrote: seeker:-6

Terribly sorry I missed that question in the past.


That's okay. I'm late getting back to you on your reply; sorry about that.



Ted wrote: It would appear that Mary's hometown was Nazareth. It was probably Josephs as well.


Is this based on the fact that they settled in Nazareth after the census in Bethlehem, or on other things as well?

Ted wrote: Thirdly we must come to realize that the birth stories of Jesus are midrash. After the death and resurrection of Jesus many of his followers decided that he was indeed the Messiah and thus used midrash in order to write the story up.


I believe they witnessed the resurrected Jesus, and that's what caused them to be so fervent for the Lord. But I don't think they lie about events. I can't see that they'd fabricate a census that never happened in order to explain OT prophecies about the Messiah being fulfilled in Jesus.



I'll have to do some more research into the rapture. I obviously don't know much about it.



Ted wrote: The fact of the matter is we do not know anything about the "last days" and Jesus clearly told us not to worry about it.


Jesus gave some specific signs preceding the 2nd Coming: tribulations over the entire earth, Jerusalem would be besieged, etc. And I beg to differ, but I don't think Jesus said not to worry about it. He said to be prepared, and of course to not be unduly worried about it.
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Post by Ted »

seeker:-6

The traditional style of biblical literature is known as midrash. One might loosely use the term parable.

What this style of writing does is to explain a later event in terms of an earlier event that was considered an inportant part of the story. Thus have Joshua cross the Jordan river is an interpretation based on the crossing of the Reed Sea story. This is how they show the importance of the newer story. The Reed Sea story was their most important story of all. Thus to show how important it was to enter the "promised land" they likened it to the crossing of the Reed Sea. It is not an attempt to lie or deceive but a style of writing and that was understood in those days.

Now we come to the birth story. It to is midrash but a most magnificent story nevertheless and not one I would like to see changed. The evangelists who wrote up the gospels did so in hindsight. Their experience of the Risen Lord was so profound that they decided he was indeed the Messiah. Having made this decision they searched the Old Testament to find writings that seemed to indicate the coming Messiah so as in the Joshua story they used these stories to interpret the life of this profound man.

The same is true of the flight into Egypt story. It is a clear interpretation based on the Moses in the basket story.

The crucifixion story is also midrash. We know almost nothing of the crucifixion beyond the fact that he was indeed crucified. Whatever the Easter experience was it turned cowering men into brave committed followers who were willing to die for their belief. It altered the course of history. Sometime after his death they had this profound experience of this Jesus still being with them. Since then millions have had the same experience including myself. The stories of Jesus being seen after the crucifixion were written up to show the extent to which they were affected by this profound experience and it is profound.

The gospels are not in and of themselves biographical. They are what the early church had come to believe about this Jesus at the time of writing. Mark was written first and the other gospels relected a developing tradition.

The problem is that we do not have anywhere the language necessary to explain our experiences of the Divine. We can only resort to metaphor in the form of stories. Thus we have both the parables of Jesus and the Parables about Jesus. (Crossan, Borg, Spong and a host of others)

Not back to the birth stories. Mary and probably Joseph lived in Nazareth. There was only one way to get them to Bethlehem where the ancient writings said that the Messiah was to be born. Create the story of the birth in Bethlehem. You have to get them there first and then need a reason for their journey. There was no such census. On these issues their records are quite accurate. Besides no census of that nature would ever have taken place.

This does not take away from the story but in fact shows just how profound was their experience of the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith.

Shalom

Ted:-6
charles_r51
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Post by charles_r51 »

Ted wrote: seeker:-6

The traditional style of biblical literature is known as midrash. One might loosely use the term parable.

What this style of writing does is to explain a later event in terms of an earlier event that was considered an inportant part of the story. Thus have Joshua cross the Jordan river is an interpretation based on the crossing of the Reed Sea story. This is how they show the importance of the newer story. The Reed Sea story was their most important story of all. Thus to show how important it was to enter the "promised land" they likened it to the crossing of the Reed Sea. It is not an attempt to lie or deceive but a style of writing and that was understood in those days.

Now we come to the birth story. It to is midrash but a most magnificent story nevertheless and not one I would like to see changed. The evangelists who wrote up the gospels did so in hindsight. Their experience of the Risen Lord was so profound that they decided he was indeed the Messiah. Having made this decision they searched the Old Testament to find writings that seemed to indicate the coming Messiah so as in the Joshua story they used these stories to interpret the life of this profound man.

The same is true of the flight into Egypt story. It is a clear interpretation based on the Moses in the basket story.

The crucifixion story is also midrash. We know almost nothing of the crucifixion beyond the fact that he was indeed crucified. Whatever the Easter experience was it turned cowering men into brave committed followers who were willing to die for their belief. It altered the course of history. Sometime after his death they had this profound experience of this Jesus still being with them. Since then millions have had the same experience including myself. The stories of Jesus being seen after the crucifixion were written up to show the extent to which they were affected by this profound experience and it is profound.

The gospels are not in and of themselves biographical. They are what the early church had come to believe about this Jesus at the time of writing. Mark was written first and the other gospels relected a developing tradition.

The problem is that we do not have anywhere the language necessary to explain our experiences of the Divine. We can only resort to metaphor in the form of stories. Thus we have both the parables of Jesus and the Parables about Jesus. (Crossan, Borg, Spong and a host of others)

Not back to the birth stories. Mary and probably Joseph lived in Nazareth. There was only one way to get them to Bethlehem where the ancient writings said that the Messiah was to be born. Create the story of the birth in Bethlehem. You have to get them there first and then need a reason for their journey. There was no such census. On these issues their records are quite accurate. Besides no census of that nature would ever have taken place.

This does not take away from the story but in fact shows just how profound was their experience of the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith.

Shalom

Ted:-6


what of the tale of the three wise men. is that also midrash, or based on facts developed from the clues put forth in the biblical naratives? according to one who studied both astrology as was probably practiced in the first century, and who also is an asrtronomer, the narrative places the birth in bethlehem in april 6 b.c. due to some numerical mis-numberings when the modern calender was developed. the star spoken of was the planet jupiter which was the star for the kings of judah. according to this astronomer, the wise men would have arrived at bethlehem in april after having left persia in the previous september. them following the track of the planet jupiter for the eight month journey put them where they needed to be at the correct time and the track of jupiter through the sky would have followed the biblical narrative to a T. this was on the history channel a few weeks ago. you may have seen it, i did and found it rather interesting.:-4
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Post by Ted »

charles:-6

The story of Jesus being born in Bethlehem origianlly called Ephraph is the place of David's birth. As such it was also to be the place of David's son and of course Jesus is referred to as the son of David. This is a midrash borrowed from the old testament. Young's Concordance pg.92

According to Howard Clark Kee, "The interpreter's One Volume Commentary" p611 "The visit of the magi is symbolic of the divine preparation for the advent of Jesus. Their gifts point to the kingly rights of the child and to dthe worldwide acknowledgment that he is ultimately to receive."

According to Spong in his book "Born of a Woman" pg87 the story was probably created by the early church based on Isaiah 41:2, 49:7 and 60:3, 6 pg 87.

"And nations shall come to your light and kings to the brightness of your rising. . . a multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels

of Midian and Ephah; all those from Sheba shall come. They shall bring gold and frankincense, and shall proclaim the praise of the Lord" .

I also know personally that John Crossan accepts the same points. He is recognised as the premier Jesus scholar in the world.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by William Ess »

Rain wrote: I hesitate to get involved in these discussions, especially since I'm new here, but since this peeked my interest I'd like to share.

As for the second coming, that's already happened. It was prophesied that Jesus would sit at the right hand of God until he placed his enemies at his feet. Ps.110:1.

The first thing Jesus did when he came in to power was to kick out Satan and his demons from heaven forever. They could no longer go back and forth. This enraged Satan and it's been "Woe for the earth" (Rev. 12:12) ever since. This took place in 1914. We can figure this date by using Bible chronology and by what took place in 1914. WWI. Never had the entire world been at war. It was so horrendous and unheard of that they even named it a World War.

As for Matt. 16:28, Jesus took Peter, James, and John up into the mountain and was transfigured. A foregleam of his coming in to Kingdom Power. So we can see that his words were right on the mark. Peter, James and John were Not dead, and they saw the forgleam of Jesus coming in to power.

As for the "day of the Lord", this is something completely different from the second coming. "The day of the Lord" is God's war at Armageddon to destroy all evil from the earth.

As for your "six years left", are you alluding to the Mayan calender?

http://www.crawford2000.co.uk/maya.htm

hoping the link works


I have been shown some of the 'mathematics' from which the year 1914 is derived and arithmetic is very shaky indeed!

As for events in 1914 being an indicator of happenings in the celestial plain, although it is referred to as the first world war, in fact it was anything but global since by far the greater part of the action took place in northern France and in many parts of the world, the conflict would have seemed remote. indeed it would have been possible to live in parts of England and, provided one did not read a newspaper, be scarcely aware of what was going on two hundred miles away.

The rate of casualties was horrific but it has to be remembered that the number of soldiers who actually came under fire was a small proportion of the whole. Many people had, as the expression went, 'a good war' because of the opportunities that were presented. Thousands who might have spent their lives in a mind-dumbing clerical position found themselves meteorically whirled from subaltern to half-colonel in three years and never looked back afterwards.

I doubt if those who benefitted from the war - and there were very many - would have seen it as a sign of trouble in heaven. Globally, the events of 1929 were far more catastrophic but, alas, 1929 doesn't fit!
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Post by charles_r51 »

Ted wrote: charles:-6

The story of Jesus being born in Bethlehem origianlly called Ephraph is the place of David's birth. As such it was also to be the place of David's son and of course Jesus is referred to as the son of David. This is a midrash borrowed from the old testament. Young's Concordance pg.92

According to Howard Clark Kee, "The interpreter's One Volume Commentary" p611 "The visit of the magi is symbolic of the divine preparation for the advent of Jesus. Their gifts point to the kingly rights of the child and to dthe worldwide acknowledgment that he is ultimately to receive."

According to Spong in his book "Born of a Woman" pg87 the story was probably created by the early church based on Isaiah 41:2, 49:7 and 60:3, 6 pg 87.

"And nations shall come to your light and kings to the brightness of your rising. . . a multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels

of Midian and Ephah; all those from Sheba shall come. They shall bring gold and frankincense, and shall proclaim the praise of the Lord" .

I also know personally that John Crossan accepts the same points. He is recognised as the premier Jesus scholar in the world.

Shalom

Ted:-6


another story, then, not to be taken as factual, though scientific evidence tends to prove the event as described using certain statements in the bible? the descriptions as given in the bible were used toi calculate the probable time of birthand the astronomical correctness of those descriptions is to be denied? an interesting problem. take on faith what can be proven scientifically, but deny the proof, and rely only on faith that the event occurred because it's a story taken from earlier texts? is anything true, or is everything stories not to be taken as ever really happening? some quandry, wouldn't you say? :-4 :-4
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Post by Ted »

charles:-6

It is not just another story. These stories present profound truths about Jesus and about God. Though they are not historical is immaterial. What is important is what they mean.

As far as astronomiers trying to find a "star" that was around then the scholars are not too keen on accepting the so called evidence. All I can say is that when I look up into the sky at night, on a clear night of course LOL, I see thousands of stars knowing that there are billions. Some are bright and some are dim. They become possibilities and as such are not proofs.

As I say, regardless of the history or lack thereof, it is the meanings of the stories that are important.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by weber »

charles_r51 wrote: another story, then, not to be taken as factual, though scientific evidence tends to prove the event as described using certain statements in the bible? the descriptions as given in the bible were used toi calculate the probable time of birthand the astronomical correctness of those descriptions is to be denied? an interesting problem. take on faith what can be proven scientifically, but deny the proof, and rely only on faith that the event occurred because it's a story taken from earlier texts? is anything true, or is everything stories not to be taken as ever really happening? some quandry, wouldn't you say? :-4 :-4


Excuse me for butting in

but Charles, are you saying that you don't believe in anything that is in the bible? I don't believe everything in the bible totally as is but I figure the stories have to have some basis other than just being tall tales. What is your life theory, death theory? well, you know, just basically.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
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Post by charles_r51 »

weber wrote: Excuse me for butting in

but Charles, are you saying that you don't believe in anything that is in the bible? I don't believe everything in the bible totally as is but I figure the stories have to have some basis other than just being tall tales. What is your life theory, death theory? well, you know, just basically.


life on this earth is nothing more, nor less than, attending a school. we learn and grow. then we die, pass ovewr, return and wide up back in class. anything else is of no value. if you learn, you go on to the next lesson, if not, you repeat the grade until you have learned the lesson. i neither accept nor reject an7y idea, but i do choose which i face, and which i turn away from. whether i am right or wrong is nothing but the product of what i have learned up to that point. i make mistakes as does everyone, but i don't place the blame for my failures on anyone but myself. as for what is in the bible, some is historically accurate, much is make believe. as for the rest, i find one meaning one day, and another the next. i don't assume someone else is right or wrong, but i have my own ideas, some i share, others i don't but still some i choose to keep rto myself, while letting others have their own ideas in spite of whaqt they think. i'm not a scholar by any means, but neither do i take everything at face value, or without question. it's an interesting book, but that's all it is , a book edited for content by who knows how many, and can't be taken as aything but that.:-4 :-4 :D
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