Witchcraft

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Musiclover89
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Post by Musiclover89 »

What are your thoughts on Witchcraft i personaly don't belive it exicts but i am willing to be proven wrong :) anyone know or had any experiences involving Witchcraft?
"Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars. Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. They'll believe anything you say, because you're a reporter. But if I, Michael Jackson, were to say, 'I'm an alien from Mars and I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight', people would say, 'Oh, man, that Michael Jackson is nuts. He's cracked up. You can't believe a damn word that comes out of his mouth.' " Michael Jackson
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Post by RedGlitter »

This is a thread for me and Pinky. :)

I have practiced it and had results but I am a not a huge practitioner which may surprise some people. Basically (in my views anyway) witchcraft is harnessing your own power and that of the universe and making what you desire manifest. If it's meant to happen and you've done everything right, then it probably will. That thing that says "be careful what you ask for" applies here. Many witches or at least Wiccans (not the same necessarily) subscribe to the Threefold Law which states that whatever you send out, you will get back three times as hard. So you always want to send out good so good will come back to you. I don't subscribe to this very much but it is a good "check and balance" system.
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Post by The Rob »

I'm not a practitioner of Wicca or any of the other Old Religions, but I have respect for the practical aspects of them.
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Post by RedGlitter »

I, Rob;665217 wrote: I'm not a practitioner of Wicca or any of the other Old Religions, but I have respect for the practical aspects of them.


Do you mean the rituals involved, Rob, or...? :)
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Post by The Rob »

RedGlitter;665224 wrote: Do you mean the rituals involved, Rob, or...? :)


I mean the overall veneration of the Earth (Gaia) that they promote, as well as those aspects that speak to self-sufficiency and the power of the individual. None of this "Just you wait until our Savior comes back!" stuff.

The "magickal" aspects are the least interesting to me. I believe I left an Arthur C. Clark quote lying around the forums somewhere...
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Post by RedGlitter »

I, Rob;665232 wrote: I mean the overall veneration of the Earth (Gaia) that they promote, as well as those aspects that speak to self-sufficiency and the power of the individual. None of this "Just you wait until our Savior comes back!" stuff.

The "magickal" aspects are the least interesting to me. I believe I left an Arthur C. Clark quote lying around the forums somewhere...


:)....
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Post by spot »

I can't get beyond the "I personally don't believe it exists" part of the question, I'm not sure what it means. Do you mean you don't believe anyone calls themselves witches? What would be odd, some people on the site use the word to describe themselves. Do you mean you don't believe witchcraft is practiced? You've got people on the site who practice it. Do you mean you don't believe anything happens when they practice it? You've got first-hand testimony that it does from the members involved. At that point I run out of questions. I can well believe you don't practice it yourself but that's not the same. If you give a bit more background to what you're asking I'd be grateful.
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Post by G-man »

^ Big surprise there, Spot... :wah: To be honest, I had the very same thought... I wasn't certain what was being asked specifically, despite the typo... for some reason I'm conjuring images of witches in the mythical sense of the term...


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Post by buttercup »

Reading between the lines it seems to me all ML is saying is he doesent know anything about witchcraft & wants to learn or just what is witchcraft. Is it all about casting spells? Red & Pinky seem to know quite a lot about it, they can help you more than i but i'll throw something in your cauldron ML. :D

My own take, if you believe in something enough ML then its true, real to you & no changing it. some people are looking for a spiritual awakening, are searching for something to believe in, something to aspire to thats not necessarily a religion.

Ive seen things they say is witchcraft but thats not how i term it. What we can do with our mind is amazing. I would say its impossible to walk on broken glass without cutting your feet, walk on hot coals without burning them, then i seen it done. Are these people under a spell to be able to do that? Yes of sorts, so does that make it witchcraft - No & yet to others its obvious that it is.
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Post by SlipStream »

:wah:Musiclover89;664866 wrote: What are your thoughts on Witchcraft i personaly don't belive it exicts but i am willing to be proven wrong :) anyone know or had any experiences involving Witchcraft?


i know this much, there are hell of a lot of so called people who should be burnt at the stake :wah:
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Post by guppy »

SlipStream;665307 wrote: :wah:





i know this much, there are hell of a lot of so called people who should be burnt at the stake :wah:


be careful slippy...you might get that remark back three fold...(evil witch laugh ) like a very bad sunburn or something......j/k:p
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Post by RedGlitter »

buttercup;665303 wrote: Reading between the lines it seems to me all ML is saying is he doesent know anything about witchcraft & wants to learn or just what is witchcraft. Is it all about casting spells? Red & Pinky seem to know quite a lot about it, they can help you more than i but i'll throw something in your cauldron ML. :D

My own take, if you believe in something enough ML then its true, real to you & no changing it. some people are looking for a spiritual awakening, are searching for something to believe in, something to aspire to thats not necessarily a religion.

Ive seen things they say is witchcraft but thats not how i term it. What we can do with our mind is amazing. I would say its impossible to walk on broken glass without cutting your feet, walk on hot coals without burning them, then i seen it done. Are these people under a spell to be able to do that? Yes of sorts, so does that make it witchcraft - No & yet to others its obvious that it is.


Well said, Buttercup.



I think if you asked ten different "witches" what witchcraft was, you would get ten varying replies, ranging from lifestyle to religion to simple mind power. For me personally, it is not my religion. It's a ritual I sometimes practice to hopefully achieve what I want or need. Rather than ask (what I perceive as) God for it in the form of prayer, I use ritual magick (not to be confused with magic which is just illusion) to put my desires into the ether. Into the universe. My religion or faith remains the same as it's always been, practicing magick hasn't changed that.

Now there will be others who tell you differently, that it's the way they connect to their God/dess(es) and magick is the way they express their faith and they are equally correct.

Butter's onto something with the hot coals and stuff. There's a lot of mind over matter involved in witchcraft and in general spellcasting. Believing is halfway there. If you're not a believer, your spells will probably fail, the same way that you'll feel the broken glass you step on if you don't control your mind to accommodate it.

ML, what is it exactly that you don't believe about it??
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Post by Musiclover89 »

RedGlitter;665316 wrote: Well said, Buttercup.



I think if you asked ten different "witches" what witchcraft was, you would get ten varying replies, ranging from lifestyle to religion to simple mind power. For me personally, it is not my religion. It's a ritual I sometimes practice to hopefully achieve what I want or need. Rather than ask (what I perceive as) God for it in the form of prayer, I use ritual magick (not to be confused with magic which is just illusion) to put my desires into the ether. Into the universe. My religion or faith remains the same as it's always been, practicing magick hasn't changed that.

Now there will be others who tell you differently, that it's the way they connect to their God/dess(es) and magick is the way they express their faith and they are equally correct.

Butter's onto something with the hot coals and stuff. There's a lot of mind over matter involved in witchcraft and in general spellcasting. Believing is halfway there. If you're not a believer, your spells will probably fail, the same way that you'll feel the broken glass you step on if you don't control your mind to accommodate it.

ML, what is it exactly that you don't believe about it??


The thing i don't belive is all the spells and stuff but like i said i'm willing to get proved wrong if it does turn out to be true i mean their are people that are witches but i don't think the spell part is true i'm not meaning to cause offence by this i'm just stateing my opinion
"Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars. Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. They'll believe anything you say, because you're a reporter. But if I, Michael Jackson, were to say, 'I'm an alien from Mars and I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight', people would say, 'Oh, man, that Michael Jackson is nuts. He's cracked up. You can't believe a damn word that comes out of his mouth.' " Michael Jackson
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Post by spot »

Why would anyone fear a witch were her spells impotent?
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Post by Musiclover89 »

spot;665430 wrote: Why would anyone fear a witch were her spells impotent?


I don't fear witches i just don't belive the spell part about them thats all
"Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars. Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. They'll believe anything you say, because you're a reporter. But if I, Michael Jackson, were to say, 'I'm an alien from Mars and I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight', people would say, 'Oh, man, that Michael Jackson is nuts. He's cracked up. You can't believe a damn word that comes out of his mouth.' " Michael Jackson
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Post by The Rob »

Spells are merely statements of intention. Magickal phenomenon don't necessarily follow.
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Post by spot »

I, Rob;665507 wrote: Spells are merely statements of intention. Magickal phenomenon don't necessarily follow.You've obviously not spent a night out with the pinkster, that's all I can say.
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Post by The Rob »

spot;665526 wrote: You've obviously not spent a night out with the pinkster, that's all I can say.


:-2 :wah:
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Post by RedGlitter »

Musiclover89;665423 wrote: The thing i don't belive is all the spells and stuff but like i said i'm willing to get proved wrong if it does turn out to be true i mean their are people that are witches but i don't think the spell part is true i'm not meaning to cause offence by this i'm just stateing my opinion


No offense taken, ML. :) Do you believe in prayer? Spellwork is not far from a form of prayer. IMO.
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Post by Musiclover89 »

RedGlitter;665657 wrote: No offense taken, ML. :) Do you believe in prayer? Spellwork is not far from a form of prayer. IMO.


I don't belive in any form of religion
"Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars. Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. They'll believe anything you say, because you're a reporter. But if I, Michael Jackson, were to say, 'I'm an alien from Mars and I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight', people would say, 'Oh, man, that Michael Jackson is nuts. He's cracked up. You can't believe a damn word that comes out of his mouth.' " Michael Jackson
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Post by spot »

Musiclover89;665770 wrote: I don't belive in any form of religion


This word "believe" doesn't half get overworked. Prayer is a mental exercise. Presumably you recognise that some people pray?

Now work that back into "Spellwork is not far from a form of prayer".

Regardless of whether or not anything ouside of the person praying is affected or changed, the person doing the praying must be. The spell has at least an affect on the person casting it.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Musiclover89;665770 wrote: I don't belive in any form of religion


Okay, that's a good starting place.

Do you believe in the forces of Nature?

Do you believe there is anything larger and more powerful than yourself?

:)
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Post by buttercup »

Musiclover89;665770 wrote: I don't belive in any form of religion


Thats what happens when you grow up in Glasgow, your catholic, protestant or dislike all religion. I should imagine you've seen some things you'd rather not. Stick with where your at kid, leave the bigots to it. Sorry went a bit off topic there.
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Post by YZGI »

Pinky;666279 wrote: Yup! I've been an initiated witch now for about ten years. It certainly does exist...we're all made up of the same elements as everything else that exist, merely in a different form. When you lean about the elements in all their forms and how to harness them, then you know the secret of transformation. It's even been scientifically proven to some degree. When neutrons (I think it's neutrons anyway, I writing this off the top od my head here) are watched, they conform to the expectation of the watcher. Therefore we can bend things to our will. Certain elements aid this; crystals for instance, have always been known to maginfy energy. Certain crystals have different vibrational energies and can be used for different purposes.



I won't give too much away here, as I'm abiding by the oath I took upon initiation.

I just wished to demonstrate that there are people with magical knowledge that Joe Bloggs doesn't know about or will ever have heard of. If you have the calling to it and the motivation to learn, anyone can master these things, they've always been with us.
So you guys take an oath and keep secrets? Sounds like Freemasons.:wah:
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Post by spot »

Pinky;666283 wrote: I joined a tradition East Anglian group which uses an elclectic mix of Wicca, Norse tradition and Celtic lore.Morris dancers., eh?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

I, Rob;665232 wrote: I mean the overall veneration of the Earth (Gaia) that they promote, as well as those aspects that speak to self-sufficiency and the power of the individual. None of this "Just you wait until our Savior comes back!" stuff.

The "magickal" aspects are the least interesting to me. I believe I left an Arthur C. Clark quote lying around the forums somewhere...


Respect for, and worship of, Gaia is not, as far as I know, part of Witchcraft.

Although the one might mark a predilection for the other they are separate beliefs.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;666284 wrote: Morris dancers., eh?


Nah, Pinky would be in the Molly tradition, surely.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Pinky;666308 wrote: General paganism supports the veneration of and looking after of Gaia/ Mother Earth.


And so it Bl**dy well should! :-6

Sorry, I did not realise there is a formal link.



As a side query, what do you class as Paganism? The name Gaia comes from Greek mythology which, with its Roman counterpart, is usually considered as the Pagan religion but I'd guess you're referring to all worship of the Mother Goddess?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Pinky;666321 wrote: No chance!!!:D


No?

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Post by m25guy »

Well personally I'd be ever grateful to the person who could cast a spell and persuade the girl of my dreams at my workplace to want me for evermore!!
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Post by Aura »

I am Wiccan and always stick to the rules :)
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Post by Amber Sun »

the rob;665232 wrote: i mean the overall veneration of the earth (gaia) that they promote, as well as those aspects that speak to self-sufficiency and the power of the individual. None of this "just you wait until our savior comes back!" stuff.

The "magickal" aspects are the least interesting to me. I believe i left an arthur c. Clark quote lying around the forums somewhere...


:-6:-6:-6:-6:-6
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Post by Amber Sun »

Musiclover89;665423 wrote: The thing i don't belive is all the spells and stuff but like i said i'm willing to get proved wrong if it does turn out to be true i mean their are people that are witches but i don't think the spell part is true i'm not meaning to cause offence by this i'm just stateing my opinion


Hi Musiclover. It might be best if you thought of a 'spell' in the same way that you view a 'prayer'. A prayer is directed to a god/goddess or a pantheon of such. A spell may or may not include a deity or a group of such.

When a person prays he/she expects someone to be listening and expects assistance with the request. This is generally done with some ritual such as getting down on the knees, sometimes before an altar or sometimes just the act of folding of the hands in prayer position. Some individuals do a ritual cleansing (having a wash or a full bath), and sometimes a candle is lit. Priests and priestesses were generally required to don clean clothing before approaching their altar or sanctuary, and some individuals still do this. A Muslim will prostrate him/herself full length on the floor, a Christian in church gets down on his/her knees. But it is still a prayer

In the case of a spell this is also left to the persons discretion. A candle may be lit just like the one on the above prayer alter. A circle may be drawn on the floor surrounding the individual (this is an ancient belief system that covers many parts of the planet). When preparing to cast a spell a ritual cleansing may be considered a part of the ritual just like above, and donning particular clothing may accompany this just like in the above. When casting a spell the individual may call on a god/goddess of his/her choice, or perhaps none.

There is basically only one difference between the casting of a spell and a prayer, and this only applies to some Pagans, or witches if you prefer this word, otherwise there is no difference at all. Some Pagans/witches realize that the words they speak causes a flow of energy into the ethers. They realize that they don't have to address any deity and that it is the power within ourselves that causes what we seek to come about.

So now why would anyone be more afraid of a spell than a prayer? In both cases good may be sought after or bad intentions may be what one seeks. What is to be remembered is that it is the Roman Catholic Church of the middle ages that made the distinction of 'witch'. But who were the witches that the priests wanted to destroy? Well they were the mid-wives and the healers of wounds of mind and body. They tended their herb patches and wandered the forests looking for the roots and plants that were needed to keep their medicine chests full. Now you might ask why the church of the middle ages would have wanted to dispel them. That is a good question and has a few answers but it only makes the church look real bad. Besides the fact that it would be a lengthy post on it's own.
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Post by Amber Sun »

Bryn Mawr;666327 wrote: And so it Bl**dy well should! :-6

Sorry, I did not realise there is a formal link.



As a side query, what do you class as Paganism? The name Gaia comes from Greek mythology which, with its Roman counterpart, is usually considered as the Pagan religion but I'd guess you're referring to all worship of the Mother Goddess?

Hello Bryn. The word Pagan originally referred to 'country dwellers' who were called Paganus. Here is a link that will describe it for you more completely as the term Pagan has changed through the course of history. Not all Pagans, then or now worship a 'mother goddess'. Then as now some Pagans do not believe in any gods/goddesses. For an example the main core of Buddhism did not adhere to an omniscient, omnipotent divinity. This was a belief that was also adhered to by the original core of Sufi. Of course with time branches sprang from the original core as is true of all belief systems.

Paganism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Amber Sun;1132765 wrote:

Hello Bryn. The word Pagan originally referred to 'country dwellers' who were called Paganus. Here is a link that will describe it for you more completely as the term Pagan has changed through the course of history. Not all Pagans, then or now worship a 'mother goddess'. Then as now some Pagans do not believe in any gods/goddesses. For an example the main core of Buddhism did not adhere to an omniscient, omnipotent divinity. This was a belief that was also adhered to by the original core of Sufi. Of course with time branches sprang from the original core as is true of all belief systems.

Paganism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now I am confused!

I thought that Buddhism intrinsically does not have an omnipotent divinity and that Sufism is the spiritual arm of Islam?
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Post by Amber Sun »

Bryn Mawr;1133211 wrote: Now I am confused!

I thought that Buddhism intrinsically does not have an omnipotent divinity and that Sufism is the spiritual arm of Islam?


I believe I may have phrased my original statement rather loosely Bryn. So I'm going to try to clarify it, if I can.

This is true about the Buddhist and yet not true, it is the same with the Sufi. Both groups now have branches that have incorporated various deities just as many Jews have embraced Christianity. Both traditional Buddhist and traditional Sufi believe that 'all is god', god is 'within and without' so to speak. They do not believe in any one particular god/goddess or a pantheon of such. There are now 4 branches of Sufism, none particularly liked by the larger faction of Muslims. It is more correct to say that Islam is the branch off of Sufism. Since the faction of traditional Sufis is quite small the larger branches want to push it out of the way and claim rights to that name. It is difficult to find much information about them because they don't want to go under the name of either Sunni or Shia although both Sunni and Shia also lay claim to that name.

I first heard about them in university while in a particular class. I am sorry to this day that I didn't keep more of my text books from back then. What it amounts to is that not all Muslims that claim to be Sufi truly are, and not all Sufi are Muslim. Real Sufism has its roots in the Pre-Christian period although the other factions that are trying to take over the name say it starts with Mohammad. I do have 2 links here for you that can probably explain better than I have.

What is a Sufi

Sufism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the first link is better because you actually hear what a 'real' Sufi is answering. Since so many other branches are trying to lay claim to the name I don't necessarily trust all that is on the net.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Amber Sun;1133564 wrote: I believe I may have phrased my original statement rather loosely Bryn. So I'm going to try to clarify it, if I can.

This is true about the Buddhist and yet not true, it is the same with the Sufi. Both groups now have branches that have incorporated various deities just as many Jews have embraced Christianity. Both traditional Buddhist and traditional Sufi believe that 'all is god', god is 'within and without' so to speak. They do not believe in any one particular god/goddess or a pantheon of such. There are now 4 branches of Sufism, none particularly liked by the larger faction of Muslims. It is more correct to say that Islam is the branch off of Sufism. Since the faction of traditional Sufis is quite small the larger branches want to push it out of the way and claim rights to that name. It is difficult to find much information about them because they don't want to go under the name of either Sunni or Shia although both Sunni and Shia also lay claim to that name.

I first heard about them in university while in a particular class. I am sorry to this day that I didn't keep more of my text books from back then. What it amounts to is that not all Muslims that claim to be Sufi truly are, and not all Sufi are Muslim. Real Sufism has its roots in the Pre-Christian period although the other factions that are trying to take over the name say it starts with Mohammad. I do have 2 links here for you that can probably explain better than I have.

What is a Sufi

Sufism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the first link is better because you actually hear what a 'real' Sufi is answering. Since so many other branches are trying to lay claim to the name I don't necessarily trust all that is on the net.


Thank you - that's a far wider definition than I've come across before with a far earlier starting date. These are the types of definition I'm more used to seeing :-

Islam and Islamic Studies ResourcesSufism.html

BBC - Religion & Ethics - Subdivisionssufism_1.shtml



As an aside, last time we were in Turkey we visited the Grand Mausoleum of the Mevlevi order, the Whirling Dervishes, in Konya. A fascinating place to visit and *very* impressive.
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Post by Clodhopper »

What I know about witches and magic and spells is that I don't know about them.

I know that the human mind is amazing, and I've seen and been told about some weird stuff.

We tend to call the weird stuff magic because we don't understand it. Whether that is magic (ie a supernatural phenomenon) or simply a natural process where we don't understand the cause-and-effect links, I don't know.

Definitely in the "avoid this" category for Clodhopper, simply on the grounds that if you play with something you don't understand you can get badly hurt.
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Post by Amber Sun »

Bryn Mawr;1133619 wrote: Thank you - that's a far wider definition than I've come across before with a far earlier starting date. These are the types of definition I'm more used to seeing :-

Islam and Islamic Studies ResourcesSufism.html

BBC - Religion & Ethics - Subdivisionssufism_1.shtml



As an aside, last time we were in Turkey we visited the Grand Mausoleum of the Mevlevi order, the Whirling Dervishes, in Konya. A fascinating place to visit and *very* impressive.

I don't generally envy anyone, but you have just become one of the very few Bryn. Do you mind taking the minute to tell me what you found so impressive, was it the mausoleum or the dances or both?

When I have a bit of time I will try to find more links for you explaining the real Sufi. I know there was one about 2-3 years ago when I was researching Pantheism, Sufism, and Buddhism.
Amber Sun
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:11 am

Witchcraft

Post by Amber Sun »

Clodhopper;1133636 wrote: What I know about witches and magic and spells is that I don't know about them.

I know that the human mind is amazing, and I've seen and been told about some weird stuff.

We tend to call the weird stuff magic because we don't understand it. Whether that is magic (ie a supernatural phenomenon) or simply a natural process where we don't understand the cause-and-effect links, I don't know.

Definitely in the "avoid this" category for Clodhopper, simply on the grounds that if you play with something you don't understand you can get badly hurt.




Someone once spoke these words to me in the context of something else. I didn't want to forget them so typed them out for myself. They are very true.

What is mysticism & magic?



From the observers point of view it's a phenomenon based on

an unknown source

From the other person's point of view it's an understanding of the

science being used.

There is a thread somewhere on this site that concerns an investigation into hyperspace. I peeked into it and am not ashamed to say that I quickly withdrew. But it may be worth your looking into the thread if you can get your mind around the terminology and concepts being used.

As far as avoiding something that you don't understand because you may get hurt, well, LOL, clodhopper, if all 'investigations into the unknown' came to a stop because of your reasoning you wouldn't be communicating with me through the computer. With your mindset we would all still be trying to pull a wagon on square wheels.:thinking::yh_rotfl
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Witchcraft

Post by Clodhopper »

As far as avoiding something that you don't understand because you may get hurt, well, LOL, clodhopper, if all 'investigations into the unknown' came to a stop because of your reasoning you wouldn't be communicating with me through the computer. With your mindset we would all still be trying to pull a wagon on square wheels.


Fair point!

Nonetheless, I will still stay away from this one (at least, until I have an expert wizard on hand to guide me....yeah, right:wah:) because the risk analysis says to me that what I risk is my mental health and sanity, all in order to gain....what?

Doesn't seem worth the risk.

Now, if I thought I was psychic or something, then it would be worth the risk - just to know for sure.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Amber Sun
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:11 am

Witchcraft

Post by Amber Sun »

Clodhopper;1133921 wrote: Fair point!

Nonetheless, I will still stay away from this one (at least, until I have an expert wizard on hand to guide me....yeah, right:wah:) because the risk analysis says to me that what I risk is my mental health and sanity, all in order to gain....what?

Doesn't seem worth the risk.

Now, if I thought I was psychic or something, then it would be worth the risk - just to know for sure.


Knowledge? Enlightenment?
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Witchcraft

Post by Clodhopper »

Knowledge? Enlightenment?


Meditation, contemplation, and reading.

:( There are an awful lot of charlatans out there....
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Amber Sun
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:11 am

Witchcraft

Post by Amber Sun »

Clodhopper;1133929 wrote: Meditation, contemplation, and reading.

:( There are an awful lot of charlatans out there....


If they are 'charlatans' why would you need to be cautious? :confused:

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