The Prince and the 17 year old

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Post by spot »

It's an unsavory matter but it deserves a thread.

Other than total embarrassment for being an entitled isolated git of the first order, which we can take as a previously known uncontested fact.

What aspect of this story which has dragged on for weeks suggests any criminality on the part of the Prince?

I can nowhere see any indication that he paid her, which would absolutely have been advanced if it had happened. Neither is there any suggestion that the Prince coerced or threatened her, or that he had any reason to believe the alleged incident was other than consensual. While Americans may be confused, the heterosexual age of consent on UK territory has been 16 since Victorian times.

The complainant may well have been trafficked, coerced or paid but none of this appears to be due to the Prince's behavior or to his knowledge - I've not even seen any of those three things implied or suggested. Perhaps I read the wrong papers.

That doesn't mean the chap should ever show his face in public again. I'm merely asking why he is being pressured by the media to cooperate with the authorities. Who is alleged to have broken anyone's law? He's guilty of being socially catastrophic and newsworthy, he may also have lied to reporters, but those are not matters of legal concern and yet he's being castigated as if he were the reincarnation of Jimmy Savile.

And I managed to write the whole of that without mentioning the Mirror Group pension fund even once.
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Post by LarsMac »

This has been one of those items for which the only proper response I can think of is a shrug.
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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1528318 wrote: This has been one of those items for which the only proper response I can think of is a shrug.


One stops shrugging when one sees the extent of the daily exposure the allegations are getting in the UK. The headlines are packed with thank you for believing in me messages, and they're not from the Prince. It all looks very driven by a PR company.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1528320 wrote: One stops shrugging when one sees the extent of the daily exposure the allegations are getting in the UK. The headlines are packed with thank you for believing in me messages, and they're not from the Prince. It all looks very driven by a PR company.


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Post by Ahso! »

If he has nothing to hide and his behavior was legal, why then is he acting guilty now by lying to the media, which, as you say, is not illegal? Lying under oath, however, is illegal, which might be why various people would like him to testify.

You can't have evidence or lack thereof unless there's an investigation.

I think it's reasonable to assume that, given the Prince's relationship to not only Epstein but also with many other's alleged involvement with this, that he knew more then and now that he was/is hiding.

Isn't it a crime to know about a crime being committed but not reporting it?
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528324 wrote: If he has nothing to hide and his behavior was legal, why then is he acting guilty now by lying to the media, which, as you say, is not illegal?


I would imagine he felt it was none of their damned business and they had appalling manners. I do hope he fired whoever allowed him to be interviewed.
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Post by Ahso! »

spot;1528325 wrote: I would imagine he feels is none of their damned business.


Then he should just say that.
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Isn't it a crime to know about a crime being committed but not reporting it?
I'm sure it can be, but finding proof of such knowledge is a difficult matter. I take it the Miranda rights still exist in both our countries.
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spot;1528329 wrote: I'm sure it can be, but finding proof of such knowledge is a difficult matter. I take it the Miranda rights still exist in both our countries.


It's nearly a foregone conclusion that Jeffrey Epstein was running a ring for pedophiles. Surely Andrew has legal counsel. The minute Andrew opened his mouth he made himself more of a person of interest.

It might be true that Andrew's only sin was the company he kept, but now it's coming home to roost that knowing those people is toxic and people now want to know what he knew, if for no other reason than to get to the others who were involved. He should just cooperate and be done with it. However, if Israel is behind this as is alleged, then I'd be worried too. They don't like tattletales.
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Post by Saint_ »

spot;1528316 wrote: It's an unsavory matter but it deserves a thread.

Other than total embarrassment for being an entitled isolated git of the first order, which we can take as a previously known uncontested fact.


Agreed.

What aspect of this story which has dragged on for weeks suggests any criminality on the part of the Prince?


The totally believable and incredibly damning testimony of the victim.

I can nowhere see any indication that he paid her,


Yes, pedophiles don't pay their sex slave victims...hence the name "slave."

the heterosexual age of consent on UK territory has been 16 since Victorian times.


Suggesting that Britain is far, far behind the times...

The complainant may well have been trafficked, coerced or paid but none of this appears to be due to the Prince's behavior or to his knowledge


Look you are sometimes quite right in your stances, but to stick up for anyone who hangs out with child molesters, engages their services, and then pretends to be some kind of "leader" is unconscionable.

You're on the wrong side of morality, intelligence, and history on this one, Spot.
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Post by spot »

Saint_;1528338 wrote: The totally believable and incredibly damning testimony of the victim.


The thing is, I don't think she's alleged any crime against the Prince. By all means point me to a reported instance, I'll be interested to know what it consists of.

My point about payment is that payment by the Prince, in this country, at that age, would have been unlawful, hence my mentioning that I'd seen no such allegation.

Nobody has ever contended that the Prince is in any sense a leader. He has, until recently, been a charity figurehead, an honorary university chancellor and a three-star admiral, the last two because he needed a uniform for parades. He's been an embarrassment since he learned to walk. He allegedly graduated from high school but I have my doubts.
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I think any behavior associated with Andrew might be his knowledge of Epstein's organization and other people who participated. All this is probably known but lacks authentic credible legal testimony to put teeth into it. There has got to be enormous political pressure against the public learning for sure the details of Epstein and his organization. People such as Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Alan Dershowitz and probably hundreds of others are probably paying big money and favors for the American press from keeping this in the news. If it weren't for the British press, there'd be no coverage at all except for small independent sites such as MintPress News' dedication to the story.

Andrew should tell what he knows. I think he knows a lot. He and Epstein were apparently pretty close friends for some time. Andrew apparently had a fetish for sex with young girls and Epstien exploited that.
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Post by spot »

Does America retain such concepts as the burden of proof in criminal trials?
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spot;1528354 wrote: Does America retain such concepts as the burden of proof in criminal trials?


What criminal trial are you referring to?
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528355 wrote: What criminal trial are you referring to?


None in particular. I've asked two questions so far. Whether America retains the concept of the burden of proof in criminal trials, and whether the Miranda rules apply to the sort of interview you would like to see. I'll even throw in a third question, whether the fifth amendment can be invoked in those circumstances.

May I go back to my earlier point, that I don't think the complainant has alleged any crime against the Prince. Again, do please point me to a reported instance, I'll be interested to know what it consists of, but I don't think it exists.
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Nobody is interested in arresting Andrew, afaik, so I'm under the impression Maranda would not apply.

Andrew volunteering to an interview might uncover proof. As I said earlier, I think most of what needs to be known is probably already known, it might just be a matter of getting one of these people to say it in a deposition. Since, according to Andrew and you, he broke no laws, that would make him the perfect inside witness.

I'd imagine the 5th could be invoked, but why even worry about that if there's no wrongdoing?

There is a suggestion that the complainant Virginia Giuffre might not have been the first girl Andrew had sex with, that his and Epstein's relationship began prior to her entering the picture. Most notable of all is the fact that claims of Prince Andrew receiving “massages” from girls during his trips with Epstein and Maxwell were published in January 2001, at least two months before Virginia Giuffre states that she was first introduced to and forced to have sex with the Prince in March of 2001. This means that the claims of Epstein- and Maxwell-brokered “massages” refer to at least one other girl, strongly suggesting that Andrew’s involvement with minors exploited by Epstein is greater than has been recently acknowledged.

Other recently reported information has added to the likelihood that Prince Andrew engaged in illicit activities with more minors than Virginia Giuffre. For instance, the FBI recently expanded its probe into Epstein’s sex trafficking network to include a specific focus on the Prince’s role. The FBI has claimed that they are reviewing claims regarding Prince Andrew made by other Epstein victims aside from Giuffre, but did not specify the nature of those claims.

Media reports cite Prince Andrew and Ghislaine Maxwell as having developed a close relationship at least by February 2000, when Andrew had spent a week at Epstein’s controversial New York penthouse at 9 East 71st Street. One report published in 2000 by London’s Sunday Times claimed that the two were introduced by Andrew’s ex-wife Sarah Ferguson, often referred to as “Fergie” in the press, and further claims that this introduction had taken place several years prior. Epstein is alleged to have first been introduced to Andrew via Maxwell in 1999. https://www.mintpressnews.com/scrubbed- ... ip/262330/
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528357 wrote: Nobody is interested in arresting Andrew, afaik, so I'm under the impression Maranda would not apply.

Andrew volunteering to an interview might uncover proof. As I said earlier, I think most of what needs to be known is probably already known, it might just be a matter of getting one of these people to say it in a deposition. Since, according to Andrew and you, he broke no laws, that would make him the perfect inside witness.

I'd imagine the 5th could be invoked, but why even worry about that if there's no wrongdoing?

There is a suggestion that the complainant Virginia Giuffre might not have been the first girl Andrew had sex with, that his and Epstein's relationship began prior to her entering the picture. https://www.mintpressnews.com/scrubbed- ... ip/262330/


It seems reasonably logical to me, speaking hypothetically, that if the Prince were to admit during interview that he was in fact aware of any payment, coercion or trafficking then he would clearly be admitting to a crime. Why do you think he would ever be prepared to do such a thing if that was, in fact, the case. He would be providing the evidence from the only source it could ever come from, that being his own testimony regarding his own knowledge at the time. That information certainly can't come from any other source.

If on the other hand he had no such knowledge at the time, then the interview would be pointless.

I haven't said he broke no laws, I asked whether there was any allegation that he had broken any. I still haven't seen any such allegation. Have you? I don't think the complainant has alleged any crime against the Prince. If you have seen an allegation of a crime, who made it and what was it.
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spot;1528359 wrote: I haven't said he broke no laws, I asked whether there was any allegation that he had broken any. I still haven't seen any such allegation. Have you? I don't think the complainant has alleged any crime against the Prince. If you have seen an allegation of a crime, who made it and what was it.


I believe the allegation is that he knew of the crimes being committed at the time and didn't report them. He could settle that with one question under oath. The fact that he is resistant to answering that one question under oath lends credence to the allegation that he did in fact know.

I'm guessing a deal could be struck that offers Andrew immunity for his testimony. Perhaps negotiations to that effect are what is currently taking place in the background. That is if anyone has the balls to go after this pack of disgusting people and Bebe gave the go-ahead.
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528360 wrote: I believe the allegation is that he knew of the crimes being committed at the time and didn't report them.


There we are, that's the bit I've not seen. Where was his accuser quoted as saying that? She's clearly the person best placed to say it was so.
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spot;1528366 wrote: There we are, that's the bit I've not seen. Where was his accuser quoted as saying that? She's clearly the person best placed to say it was so.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ivors.html
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528368 wrote: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ivors.html


Reading that reminds me why I detest the Daily Mail, that was journalism at its most unclean. A sentence would have been more helpful than the link.

As far as I can tell, the article is about someone who has never even met the Prince. Did I get that wrong?

What I wrote was that you said "I believe the allegation is that he knew of the crimes being committed at the time and didn't report them" and I answered "There we are, that's the bit I've not seen. Where was his accuser quoted as saying that? She's clearly the person best placed to say it was so. "

I honestly can't see anything in the Daily Mail article alleging that he knew of the crimes being committed at the time and didn't report them. Which bit are you looking at?
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spot;1528371 wrote: Reading that reminds me why I detest the Daily Mail, that was journalism at its most unclean. A sentence would have been more helpful than the link.

As far as I can tell, the article is about someone who has never even met the Prince. Did I get that wrong?

What I wrote was that you said "I believe the allegation is that he knew of the crimes being committed at the time and didn't report them" and I answered "There we are, that's the bit I've not seen. Where was his accuser quoted as saying that? She's clearly the person best placed to say it was so. "

I honestly can't see anything in the Daily Mail article alleging that he knew of the crimes being committed at the time and didn't report them. Which bit are you looking at?


I don't see why you need to see it from any particular person. That girl is an accuser who says Epstein used his relationship with Andrew to lure young girls. We know Epstein and Andrew had a relationship, so it's not much of a leap that Epstein would use Andrew's name to advance his crimes. There's a very good chance the two of them spoke of it in passing.

Here is Virginia Roberts' attorney asking Andrew to step up and tell what he knew to the FBI. Gloria Allred said Prince Andrew has an obligation to meet with investigators to disclose what he knew about Jeffrey Epstein, the multimillionaire businessman and convicted sex offender who died by suicide this past summer while on trial for sex trafficking charges. The prince was a close friend of Epstein’s, but has denied any wrong-doing. Virginia Giuffre, who is one of several Epstein accusers, claims she was forced to have sex with the prince while she was underage.

Allred, who is representing several of Epstein’s accusers, urged the prince to meet with investigators as soon as possible without any conditions. https://variety.com/2019/politics/news/ ... 203412143/
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528373 wrote: I don't see why you need to see it from any particular person. That girl is an accuser who says Epstein used his relationship with Andrew to lure young girls.


And I don't doubt her for a second, but she never met the Prince and there isn't the slightest reason to think the Prince knew anything about the using or the luring. It simply isn't relevant in the slightest. It says something about Mr Epstein, it says nothing about the Prince. It says a great deal about the filth-merchants on the Daily Mail though, it's about throwing mud because some will stick.
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Post by LarsMac »

The Daily Mail has the same sort of credibility as the National Enquirer here in the states, along with a few other Grocery store Check-out stand rags.

This thread shows that even some reasonable people tend to give them more attention than they deserve.

Again, [shrug]
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Post by Ahso! »

Has anyone filed a suit againt Andrew?
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528405 wrote: Has anyone filed a suit againt Andrew?


Of course not. Someone's selling a stack of extra newspapers and egging on the PR agents. I'll ask again, has anyone actually accused the Prince of any criminal behavior, as opposed to bad taste and the moral respectability of a feral tomcat?
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And I'll say again that what this appears to be is pressure to get Andrew to tell investigators what he knows.
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Post by spot »

Short of extraordinary rendition, hell will freeze over first. The last time a member of the family was compelled into a witness box was in 1870, after a lifetime of behaving in much the same way as this one, and Prince Bertie never recovered his good name. The lesson will have been noted. Insensitive scoundrels, both of them.
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Expect it to remain in the headlines for some time then. Either way, Andrew's reputation is damaged. I would think that stepping up with some sort of immunity deal might be the best way to try to salvage it to some degree.
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Post by spot »

Go on - immunity from what?

The Prince's reputation has been mud since his late teenage years, it has nowhere to go, it is never going to wash.
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Immunity from any crime he might be guilty of regarding the Epstein issue. I expect he's at least guilty of not reporting crimes he was aware of.
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Post by spot »

Consider two possibilities.

Perhaps there is proof that the Prince has committed an extraditable crime. In that case a deal in exchange for immunity would be negotiable.

Perhaps there isn't, in which case accepting immunity would involve a confession of guilt.

I think the investigators would actually need that proof before they could negotiate that deal, don't you?

And before they get that proof they have to discover a crime, hence my question about whether one has been alleged. I still don't think any has been, which is why I ask for information. Getting to proof before there's even an allegation is a huge step.
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Post by Ahso! »

The investigation is ongoing at this point. There might be or not any allegation against Andrew. What I've read is that Roberts puts Andrew at the scene of the crimes, sort of speak, and she and her attorney have publically asked him to tell investigators what he knows. Andrew's refusal to do that only causes him to appear to be hiding something.

What's most interesting to me is the lack of information leaking out of an FBI that is often quite porous. I expect that's due to the high profile of the people involved. It appears they all just want it to fade or they are being tight-lipped because something big is happening. The mainstream media doesn't seem to be knocking down any doors looking for information. I wonder why.
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1528421 wrote: The investigation is ongoing at this point.


Not that I can see, no. Who, for example, is being investigated? Surely there can't be an investigation without a suspect, and to be a suspect you must have something to be suspected of. I would be extremely surprised if the Prince is suspected of any crime by any authority, British French or American.

If you know of any authority investigating a crime in an ongoing fashion, could you describe their authority and who they're investigating? You say it's happening, presumably you can unearth a report to that effect.
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spot;1528422 wrote: Not that I can see, no. Who, for example, is being investigated? Surely there can't be an investigation without a suspect, and to be a suspect you must have something to be suspected of. I would be extremely surprised if the Prince is suspected of any crime by any authority, British French or American.

If you know of any authority investigating a crime in an ongoing fashion, could you describe their authority and who they're investigating? You say it's happening, presumably you can unearth a report to that effect.Following Epstein’s death in August, which was ruled a suicide by hanging, the Department of Justice said that it would continue to investigate anyone who helped Epstein procure underage girls or helped him to cover up crimes. A spokesman for the Manhattan U.S. Attorney’s Office declined to comment on where the probe stands, only saying that the “investigation is continuing.” https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-e ... is-cronies
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Post by spot »

The quote makes the position clear, that it is "to investigate anyone who helped Epstein procure underage girls or helped him to cover up crimes". The Prince doesn't fall within that category of person and I would suggest that anyone claiming otherwise should first be aware of the British law relating to libel which differs markedly from US law. We're definitely talking about British jurisdiction in these circumstances. It would, I fear, be the site which would receive the take-down notice, not the poster.

As for Mr Epstein, I'm certain there can be no further criminal case against the man himself. There is no criminal claim against his estate, and the man is beyond their power to prosecute.
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I'll be sure to watch what I say and post. You're quite protective of the crown jewels.
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Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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YZGI
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The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by YZGI »

Ahso!;1528425 wrote: I'll be sure to watch what I say and post. You're quite protective of the crown jewels.


Now that made me laugh..

If the prince was a conservative he would have already been drawn and quartered.

Remember Cavanaugh?
Ahso!
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The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by Ahso! »

YZGI;1528440 wrote: If the prince was a conservative he would have already been drawn and quartered.

Remember Cavanaugh?But that isn't what happened to Kavanaugh, he was confirmed to the SCOTUS. Also, that comparison seems to be a false equivalence and the argument seems to be a tu quoque fallacy.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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spot
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The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by spot »

Here we are, a family snap of the posse.








And a bit of transcript? Something with Bushy perhaps?

I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.


And no, he's not going to be thrown out of office by the Senate. He's going to be re-elected for a second term a year from now, Harvey Weinstein clone or not.

Vile chap though. Is it fake news? Did none of it ever happen?

And if anyone sees the one on the right, ring the local paper - it will be the next day's headline news all around the world.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
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The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by Ahso! »

I think you'll be correct about the election if an establishment candidate like Biden or Buttigig (whatever his name is) is chosen because true progressives will once again either sit it out or vote third party, I know that's what I'll do because there's is no difference between Trump and an establishment democrat other than style and party affiliation. Trump is an overt racist, pedophile, rapist, homophobe, and xenophobe, and as I've already shown beyond question, a world-class narcissist. But then, so is Bill Clinton, and Hillary is Bill's enabler, as Melania is to Trump.

If the DNC wishes to court the vote of progressives, which they don't (they prefer republicans to progressives) they should put a candidate like Sanders, Warren, or Gabbard up, which they are trying very hard to avoid doing.

Otherwise, it's business as usual.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by Saint_ »

Ahso!;1528628 wrote: there's is no difference between Trump and an establishment democrat other than style and party affiliation..


One name: Obama.
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The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by spot »

Saint_;1528634 wrote: One name: Obama.


You're claiming Barrack Obama was "an establishment democrat"? Seriously?

You don't remember how vile the Clintons were to him before he won the election?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
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The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by Ahso! »

Saint_;1528634 wrote: One name: Obama.Do you mean to say Obama was an exception?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Prince and the 17 year old

Post by Ahso! »

spot;1528636 wrote: You're claiming Barrack Obama was "an establishment democrat"? Seriously?

You don't remember how vile the Clintons were to him before he won the election?The Clintons are vile toward everyone. Hillary, probably under Bill's advice, began the birther issue if my memory serves me.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple

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