The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

Post by spot »

You'll remember the white Dallas police officer who murdered her black neighbor.

That in itself was a very odd set of contradictory evidence.

On the one side, came home from work and mistakenly reached the front door on the next floor up from her own, found the door ajar, pushed it open into a dark room and shot a threatening figure after giving a verbal warning.

On the other, neighbors reported hearing loud knocks on his front door and the chap who was shot in his own apartment had been watching TV while eating ice cream on his couch. Who eats ice cream on a couch in the dark? Or leaves a front door ajar in an apartment in Dallas?

One of the chief neighbor witnesses at the trial has now been shot dead. "Joshua Brown was a key witness in the murder of Botham Jean that helped put Amber Guyger away. We need answers".

I'm still amazed that a serving white nonpoc police officer has been jailed in America for shooting a poc - are these this year's acceptable terminology? - but I'm not at all surprised there could be retributive murder in the wake of the verdict.
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This case sounds like jealousy to me, it always did. She was found guilty and is now in prison. I didn't realize someone else was killed though.
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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Ahso!;1525991 wrote: She was found guilty and is now in prison.


If the genders and ethnicities were reversed there would have been a significantly longer sentence, too.
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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spot;1525992 wrote: If the genders and ethnicities were reversed there would have been a significantly longer sentence, too.


Agreed. I'm thinking being a cop didn't hurt either.
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From the first news report, this never "sounded" right. And with every information release it got more weird.

Though someone trained as a cop should have had a notion of what floor they were parking on. you should get to where you know the cars that should be on your parking deck, according to a friend of mine who lives in a similar apartment complex. In her apartment, each floor has a slightly different color to the paint on the walls and doors.

Subtle clues that would tell you that you are on "your" floor.

Do you suppose that her cop boyfriend/partner had anything to do with offing Mr Brown?

All very weird.
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Dallas mayor Eric Johnson said on Twitter on Monday he trusts Dallas police will conduct a thorough investigation into the death of Brown and that until then, people should “refrain from speculation”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... eculation-




The mayor of Dallas seems to hope that people will stop discussing the murder until a thorough police investigation is concluded. I suggest it's far more likely a thorough police investigation will only happen if people keep on discussing the murder though even then I doubt a thorough police investigation will actually occur.

Is it more likely than not that the shooters knew who Mr Brown was? And if so, were they more likely than not to have disapproved of his decisive role in the conviction of the white Dallas police officer who murdered her black neighbor?

Refraining from speculation would stop me from suggesting that a proportion of the Dallas police force were quite happy that Mr Brown was shot, feeling no doubt that people who forget their proper place in society ought to be made an example of. I don't suggest for a moment that they would have wanted to see Mr Brown lynched at a public gathering of concerned citizens, but I do think the ethnicities of the victim, defendant and witness at the trial have relevance.

I would encourage everyone to ignore the emollient direction of the mayor of Dallas and to speculate at length.
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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spot;1525992 wrote: If the genders and ethnicities were reversed there would have been a significantly longer sentence, too.


And you know that how?
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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tude dog;1526043 wrote: And you know that how?


Because your government says so.

Chapter Four:Racial, Ethnic, and Gender Disparities In Federal Sentencing Today

https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/file ... /chap4.pdf

at, for example,





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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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tude dog;1526043 wrote: And you know that how?


No, you might be right. Had the genders and race been reversed, he probably would have been shot the moment he was spotted.
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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spot;1526044 wrote: Because your government says so.

Chapter Four:Racial, Ethnic, and Gender Disparities In Federal Sentencing Today

https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/file ... /chap4.pdf

at, for example,








Seven of the 12 jurors and four alternates are African-American, four are white and five are of other races and ethnicities. The jury, if it decides to convict, could find Ms. Guyger guilty of murder or of a lesser charge such as manslaughter.

Judge in Amber Guyger case defends giving fired officer a hug and a Bible after trial

How does that work with your chart?

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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

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tude dog;1526051 wrote: How does that work with your chart?




Clearly my comment, "If the genders and ethnicities were reversed there would have been a significantly longer sentence, too", was a generalized statement about the statistics of American sentencing. What an empathic hug-prone judge does with a bible, or the composition of one jury, is irrelevant to my observation. The chart simply gives considerable support to what I wrote, because you asked how I knew it.
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We have a further news item.

Joshua Brown, the slain Amber Guyger trial witness, was killed in a drug deal gone wrong, police say

Brown was killed after an argument with one of three men from Louisiana who had met him in Dallas for a drug purchase, Moore told reporters.

A conversation between Brown and Thaddeous Green, 22, escalated into a physical altercation in which Brown allegedly shot and wounded Jacquerious Mitchell, 20, according to Moore.

Green then shot Brown twice, Moore said. Green took a backpack from Brown as well as the gun used to wound Mitchell.

After receiving tips, police obtained a search warrant and recovered 12 pounds of marijuana, 143 grams of THC cartridges, and $4,000 in cash from Brown's apartment.

"As you know, there's been speculation and rumors that have been shared by community leaders claiming that Mr. Brown's death was related to the Amber Guyger trial, and somehow the Dallas Police Department was responsible," Moore said.

"I assure you that is simply not true. And I encourage those leaders to be mindful of their actions moving forward because their words have jeopardized the integrity of the city of Dallas as well as the Dallas Police Department."

[...] Almost a year before he testified at Guyger's trial, Brown was wounded in a shooting at a Dallas strip club that left another man dead, police said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/08/us/j ... index.html




That's the police side of things. There then follows comment from representatives of Mr Brown's family.

Brown believed he was the target in that November 23 shooting and felt there were "still people out there who wanted to do him harm," said attorney S. Lee Merritt, who represents Brown's family.

Merritt on Tuesday called for Dallas police to recuse themselves from the investigation into Brown's shooting.

Brown's family, in a statement Tuesday, also asked the Dallas Police Department to turn the investigation over to an "alternate investigative agency."

"This family and their representatives have consciously avoided speculating about law enforcement involvement in this tragedy, however, due to the proximity of this murder with the trial of Amber Guyger -- rumors abound, " Merritt said in the statement released on his Instagram page.

"It is important for everyone involve(d) that this case not only be solved but the conclusions arrived to by investigators be seen as authentic and reliable."


If anyone recalls the shootings at the Danziger Bridge in 2005, and the immediate farrago of lying which the entire police department engaged in, and the eventual revelation of what actually happened, I may be excused for not drawing any conclusion at this stage.

It seems reasonable to claim on the basis of previous experience that the Dallas police have said exactly what they'd have said regardless of the actual facts, and that Dallas is blessed with more than enough armed drug dealers to find an unrelated shooting at about the same time and link them. Anyone feeling above the law and called to be judge, jury and executioner on account of pervasive villainy might follow pretty much the same course if they grew up on Batman comics.
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So, the guy was a drug dealer, and ended up on the wrong side of the wrong deal.

But of course a lot of people will hold on to the conspiracy thing because it's so much more enticing that way.

Kind of an Occam thing, though, dontcha think?
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LarsMac;1526103 wrote: But of course a lot of people will hold on to the conspiracy thing because it's so much more enticing that way.

Kind of an Occam thing, though, dontcha think?


I agree with your position entirely, but exactly the same argument was put forward when accusations were made against the police after the shootings at the Danziger Bridge in 2005 if you remember. Spend a couple of minutes refreshing your memory at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17616965

Perhaps you could consider the parallels and then tell me how they differ. If we can establish differences we can abandon my suggestion immediately.

As for which suggestion is simplest, the idea that rogue police are routinely supported by their colleagues who ought to have learned better isn't just a possibility, it's a certainty. No police force has ever existed where it didn't happen. I've written a manifesto policy for rebuilding trust in the police, and it starts by having two forces one of which patrols the public and the other of which covertly patrols the first bunch, their sole job being to pro-actively watch and trip up corrupt serving officers and get them put in jail. Without that balance I don't see how anyone can trust the service. People trusted priests and look where that ended up.
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An afterthought, having brewed coffee.

As for how police can go beyond their remit, some have the concept of the "perp" which is completely dehumanizing. When you have a national mindset that the correct post-apocalyptic approach to zombies is to plaster them with rapid fire, all you need is an attitude that the population at large, or suspects in cars, or refugees from Katrina crossing a bridge in floodwater, are a legitimate target, and hey presto. Dead people. The other thing you need is to think you'll never be held to account for it.

As for colleagues lying after the event, I think it might be important to repost this clip from an earlier thread:New Orleans, La. --This morning members of the New Orleans Police Department issued an update regarding the attempted murder of a Deputy Sheriff with the St. Landry Parish Sheriff's Office, as well is seven members of the New Orleans Police Dept. The incident culminated into the shooting of six people, two of which were fatal. The ordeal occurred September 4, 2001, at approximately 9:00 a.m., on the Danziger Bridge, located in the 5800 block of Chef Menteur Highway near Downman Road.

[...] As the officers drove into the area they were met with gunfire from, at least four suspects at the base of the bridge. The officers positioned themselves and began an exchange of gunfire. The gunmen, along with three other persons, totaling seven, jumped over the side of the concrete barrier onto a walkway, approximately three feet high, and continued the exchange of gunfire, when five persons were shot by officers.




And those, as you will recall and as the police and Grand Jury accepted years later, were unarmed refugees in the middle of the Katrina aftermath trying to reach safety, one of whom was given a life sentence after perjured evidence.

By all means apply Occam's Razor. Lying police institutionally backed up by their colleagues is a very simple evidence-based position to consider.
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spot;1526105 wrote: An afterthought, having brewed coffee.

As for how police can go beyond their remit, some have the concept of the "perp" which is completely dehumanizing. When you have a national mindset that the correct post-apocalyptic approach to zombies is to plaster them with rapid fire, all you need is an attitude that the population at large, or suspects in cars, or refugees from Katrina crossing a bridge in floodwater, are a legitimate target, and hey presto. Dead people. The other thing you need is to think you'll never be held to account for it.

As for colleagues lying after the event, I think it might be important to repost this clip from an earlier thread:

And those, as you will recall and as the police and Grand Jury accepted years later, were unarmed refugees in the middle of the Katrina aftermath trying to reach safety, one of whom was given a life sentence after perjured evidence.

By all means apply Occam's Razor. Lying police institutionally backed up by their colleagues is a very simple evidence-based position to consider.


It is quite a stretch to link the 2001 NOPD with Dallas PD of today. NOPD was under investigation long before the Bridge.
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LarsMac;1526117 wrote: It is quite a stretch to link the 2001 NOPD with Dallas PD of today. NOPD was under investigation long before the Bridge.


2005. It's a gap of 14 years and it was 6 years before the officers were dealt with, that's only 8 years ago.

I'd regard it as an international generic policing problem rather than grading individual cities outstanding. We're talking more about individuals and whether they're backed up by individuals or steamrollered by vigilance from outside their circle of comfort, whether that's the public or their management.

I do not hold out much trust in their management. I think management's first response it to circle the wagons and say their organization is spotless. Without challenge, that first statement is all there will be.
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spot;1526070 wrote: Clearly my comment, "If the genders and ethnicities were reversed there would have been a significantly longer sentence, too", was a generalized statement about the statistics of American sentencing. What an empathic hug-prone judge does with a bible, or the composition of one jury, is irrelevant to my observation. The chart simply gives considerable support to what I wrote, because you asked how I knew it.


Oh, I see, a government commission has come to conclusions. And that has to do with this particular case?

UNITED STATES SENTENCING COMMISSION

I have no idea how much taxpayer money is wasted for this farce, that nobody ever heard of.

The Commission collects, analyzes, and distributes a broad array of information on federal sentencing practices.


This is a local issue.
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tude dog;1526131 wrote: This is a local issue.


And you really think local courts are less influenced by gender or ethnicity than federal courts?

I find it hard to believe you'd be so credulous.
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spot;1526132 wrote: And you really think local courts are less influenced by gender or ethnicity than federal courts?

I find it hard to believe you'd be so credulous.


What you presented is irrelevant to the case.
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tude dog;1526137 wrote: What you presented is irrelevant to the case.


The observation about gender and ethnicity wasn't about the case, I did point out that it was a general observation about American sentencing policy at large.
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Just to stir the pot a bit, the witness who was murdered the next day was killed by three guys who were in town to buy drugs from him.
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There do seem to be a lot of people suggesting the Dallas Police Department recuse itself from this investigation.

NYT Writer Accuses Dallas Police of ‘Cover-Up’ in Death of Key Witness in Amber Guyger Case



not only am i supposed to believe that these dudes traveled 4 ½ hours for weed but

i’m also supposed to believe they left behind 12 lbs of weed and 1000s in cash and

i’m supposed to believe that neither the defense nor prosecution had any knowledge that he was a prolific dealer

— b-boy bouiebaisse (@jbouie) October 8, 2019



sorry, i can’t get over the fact that — for this narrative to work — no one involved in the case against amber guyger had to have any knowledge of the fact that the prosecution’s KEY WITNESS was a serious drug dealer with wide connections across the region.

— b-boy bouiebaisse (@jbouie) October 8, 2019

https://eurweb.com/2019/10/10/joshua-br ... yger-case/

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spot;1526227 wrote: There do seem to be a lot of people suggesting the Dallas Police Department recuse itself from this investigation.


Don't see why. It seems pretty cut and dry.

the guy was a drug dealer, and the guy that shot him seems to have been a drug buyer. Though, I am sure that, there will be a DEA and possibly FBI investigation.
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LarsMac;1526231 wrote: the guy was a drug dealer


As the quoted NYT writer says, you're prepared to accept that at the trial "neither the defense nor prosecution had any knowledge that he was a prolific dealer"? Would that not have been unusually remiss of the lawyers concerned? You'd have a better idea of that than I, I'm asking for information. I think the implication would have related to his credibility in front of the jury, and hence would have been definitely raised at trial.
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spot;1526232 wrote: As the quoted NYT writer says, you're prepared to accept that at the trial "neither the defense nor prosecution had any knowledge that he was a prolific dealer"? Would that not have been unusually remiss of the lawyers concerned? You'd have a better idea of that than I, I'm asking for information. I think the implication would have related to his credibility in front of the jury, and hence would have been definitely raised at trial.


I suppose that if the Defense attorneys had known that he was a drug dealer, they might have made that an issue and questioned his veracity as a witness against a police officer.

I doubt that Drug dealer, or any potential variation of that job description appeared on his resumé.

And "prolific" might be giving him more credit than he deserves.
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LarsMac;1526234 wrote: And "prolific" might be giving him more credit than he deserves.
I'd fire a lawyer who didn't ask such a basic question as previous convictions of a witness. They're defending a police officer and none of her ex-colleagues give her the tip? Seriously, how does that happen.

And he "left behind 12 lbs of weed and 1000s in cash and you don't call him prolific?

Come on, it smells.
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spot;1526235 wrote: I'd fire a lawyer who didn't ask such a basic question as previous convictions of a witness. They're defending a police officer and none of her ex-colleagues give her the tip? Seriously, how does that happen.

And he "left behind 12 lbs of weed and 1000s in cash and you don't call him prolific?

Come on, it smells.


Did you find evidence of prior convictions?

12 lbs is chicken feed.
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Brown had been shot before, and was fearful of all the attention the trial would bring to him.
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LarsMac;1526237 wrote: Brown had been shot before, and was fearful of all the attention the trial would bring to him.


Yes, I've seen the official story being peddled by Dallas Police Damage Limitation Department. The world has been presented with two different stories. I don't think the Dallas Police should be the adjudicator between them, that's all, they can't both be true and one of the stories is owned by the Dallas Police itself.

We have alternative outcomes. Either a legitimate impartial and independent investigation gives an answer we can both have faith in, or the Dallas Police account is the only one validated under "nothing here to see folks, move along please" rules.
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spot;1526239 wrote: Yes, I've seen the official story being peddled by Dallas Police Damage Limitation Department. The world has been presented with two different stories. I don't think the Dallas Police should be the adjudicator between them, that's all, they can't both be true and one of the stories is owned by the Dallas Police itself.

We have alternative outcomes. Either a legitimate impartial and independent investigation gives an answer we can both have faith in, or the Dallas Police account is the only one validated under "nothing here to see folks, move along please" rules.


I honestly do not see what the PD could possibly have gained from Taking the guy out after the trial was over.

The only probable connection at all would be some sort of "Revenge" thing that the former officer's Partner/boy friend/whatever might have felt the need for after the conviction.

Brown's testimony really had little impact on the case, in the end.
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LarsMac;1526246 wrote: I honestly do not see what the PD could possibly have gained from Taking the guy out after the trial was over.

The only probable connection at all would be some sort of "Revenge" thing that the former officer's Partner/boy friend/whatever might have felt the need for after the conviction.

Brown's testimony really had little impact on the case, in the end.


The department would have nothing to gain, I merely suggest it is too terrified to investigate whether the investigating team is putting up a concocted case to shield other officers.

As for why anyone on the force would choose to punish a member of the public for daring to give evidence against a police officer in court? To warn other members of the public to keep their heads below the parapet, especially if the officers involved were Anglo-Saxon and the witness blatantly not.

Case after case demonstrates that police officers worldwide think they are above the law, mostly because in practice they obviously are.

It's not a question of whether his testimony put an officer away, it's that he had the temerity to challenge the word of an officer in court.
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Well, I don't disagree that the DPD might better serve the investigation by staying out of it. But I don't see any real holes in the theory that it was a simple drug deal gone bad, either.
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LarsMac;1526117 wrote: It is quite a stretch to link the 2001 NOPD with Dallas PD of today. NOPD was under investigation long before the Bridge.


Here we are - a current observation about racism in the DPD.

The murders of Atatiana Jefferson and Joshua Brown highlight Dallas’ racial tensions. Murders and mass shootings have rocked North Texas this fall.

The deaths of Atatiana Jefferson and Joshua Brown, in particular, have strained the already tense relationship between the area’s law enforcement and black communities.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=uk

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Using those two incidents to support that argument is really is quite a reach.

There is no denying that there are racist cops. In Dallas, In New Orleans, Or even here in my home town.

But these two incidents do not really have enough common points to really prove a Racist bent to the management.
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

Post by spot »

LarsMac;1526940 wrote: Using those two incidents to support that argument is really is quite a reach.

There is no denying that there are racist cops. In Dallas, In New Orleans, Or even here in my home town.

But these two incidents do not really have enough common points to really prove a Racist bent to the management.


I'm not suggesting a racist bent to the management, I'm suggesting there are racist cops in Dallas. What I accuse the DPD management of is circling the wagons and denying the problem rather than purging the rank and file. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in making that suggestion.
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

Post by LarsMac »

spot;1526941 wrote: I'm not suggesting a racist bent to the management, I'm suggesting there are racist cops in Dallas. What I accuse the DPD management of is circling the wagons and denying the problem rather than purging the rank and file. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in making that suggestion.


Well, the one that shot Ms Jefferson was fired, almost immediately. However THAT event occurred in Fort Worth Texas. It has little to do with the Dallas PD.

As for cops being racists,

Link: What New Research Says About Race and Police Shootings



From the article:

"What the studies don’t tell us

Cesario’s study centers the characteristics of the police officer over the victim, concluding essentially that since black and Hispanic police are as likely or more likely to kill people of color as white officers, that the race of the police officer doesn’t matter. But it’s not clear whether that matters in determining whether police bias exists at all. As Philip Atiba Goff, president and cofounder of the Center for Policing Equity, told NPR, “Racism is not a thing that white people can have and black people can’t. And nobody’s research would suggest that it does.”

Looking at individual police characteristics doesn’t tell the public anything about the links between structural racism—both within a police department and throughout society—and police violence. Boston University School of Public Health scholar Michael Siegel found that connection in his study last year, which analyzed data on police killings between 2013 and 2017. States that have higher rates of racial segregation, incarceration, educational attainment, economic disparity, and unemployment also tend to have higher levels of police violence against African Americans, Siegel found.

Nor does looking at the racial characteristics of individual police shooters tell the public anything about why American law enforcement as a system finds unarmed nonwhite civilians threatening enough to shoot and kill more often than unarmed whites. They don’t explain why police choked Eric Garner, who had no weapon and posed no threat, or why police shot and killed Philando Castile while he was restrained by a seatbelt in a parked car. Meanwhile, Patrick Crusius committed one of the largest terrorist attacks on Latino Americans in U.S history and was apprehended “without incident” while still at the scene of the crime. The point is not that police should have also killed Crusius, but that Garner and Castille should still be alive. "

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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

Post by LarsMac »

3 indicted for murder of Guyger witness

"Three men were indicted in the death of key witness Joshua Brown, who testified he heard the gunshots ex-Dallas cop Amber Guyger fired, killing Botham Jean, a black associate at a top accounting and consulting firm. A Dallas County grand jury indicted 22-year-old Thaddeous Charles Green, 20-year-old Jacquerious Mitchell, and 32-year-old Michael Diaz Mitchell Thursday on murder charges in the death of Brown, according to the Dallas County District Attorney’s office."

So, I think this may be put to rest, soon.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
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The scandalous assassination of Joshua Brown

Post by spot »

I saw that, yes. We'll see what the trial produces.
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