More Than 3,000 U.S. Prisoners Locked Up for Life Without Parole for Non-Violent Crim

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Post by katsung47 »

More Than 3,000 U.S. Prisoners Locked Up for Life Without Parole for Non-Violent Crimes



November 13, 2013 |

At about 12.40pm on 2 January 1996, Timothy Jackson took a jacket from the Maison Blanche department store in New Orleans, draped it over his arm, and walked out of the store without paying for it. When he was accosted by a security guard, Jackson said: “I just needed another jacket, man.”

A few months later Jackson was convicted of shoplifting and sent to Angola prison in Louisiana. That was 16 years ago. Today he is still incarcerated in Angola, and will stay there for the rest of his natural life having been condemned to die in jail. All for the theft of a jacket, worth $159.

Jackson, 53, is one of 3,281 prisoners in America serving life sentences with no chance of parole for non-violent crimes. Some, like him, were given the most extreme punishment short of execution for shoplifting; one was condemned to die in prison for siphoning petrol from a truck; another for stealing tools from a tool shed; yet another for attempting to cash a stolen cheque.

http://www.alternet.org/print/civil-lib ... ent-crimes
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Post by tude dog »

These articles are so misleading to the point of being actual lies.

I hate liars.
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Post by Bruv »

How does the Three strikes policy work then ?
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Post by Ahso! »

The three strikes sentencing laws are indeed horrific.
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1440730 wrote: How does the Three strikes policy work then ?


The law varies from state to state. It has been altered somewhat since it was passed by voters in California.

A classic example I am familiar with, the pizza thief. This guy had five felony convictions but it only takes two to make the pizza theft a felony.

Pizza Thief Receives Sentence of 25 Years to Life in Prison : Crime: Judge cites five prior felony convictions in sentencing Jerry Dewayne Williams under 'three strikes' law.

The 27-year-old Williams sat silent as Torrance Superior Court Judge Donald F. Pitts levied the sentence, citing Williams' five prior felony convictions, his habit of finding trouble and the 1994 "three strikes" law as reasons for the punishment. Before announcing the sentence, Pitts had denied a defense motion filed by Williams' attorney, Deputy Public Defender Arnold T. Lester, which argued that a 25-years-to-life sentence for stealing a piece of pizza constituted cruel and unusual punishment.


Williams, a 6-foot, 4-inch Compton warehouseman, was arrested near Craig's ice cream shop at the Redondo Beach Pier last July. He and a friend, prosecutors would contend, somewhat intoxicated and possibly playing a game of "truth or dare," approached four youngsters dining on an extra-large pepperoni pizza. Each of the men asked for a piece, and when they were refused, each took a slice anyway.


This article didn't mentioned the ages of the kids which ranged from 7 to 14.

In my view that act alone which looks to me like strong arm robbery should be considered a violent felony. That's just me.

The article contains different views on the subject. What those who don't like the three strike often times leave out that:

"three strikes" offers two chances, and repeat offenders are being punished not for their final convictions but for a history of wrongdoing.


LA TIMES

When I read about somebody with repeat convictions I must wonder just how much do these people do that never comes to the attention to the law. Not much different than in that article it was left out that:

Prior to that arrest, Williams had had plenty of run-ins with the law. Beginning at age 14, he had been arrested 13 times. Six of those arrests, for crimes including vandalism and burglary, occurred when he was a juvenile. His first of five felony convictions came at 19, when he pleaded guilty to drug possession. Later, Williams would be convicted of robbery, attempted robbery and joy riding.

To underscore Williams' extensive record and challenge the notion that his three-strikes sentence was unfair, Deputy Dist. Atty. Bill Gravlin on Tuesday not only recited Williams' offenses but unfolded a computer printout of a "rap sheet" that extended from his outstretched arm to the floor.


LA TIMES
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Post by FG »

tude dog;1440706 wrote: These articles are so misleading to the point of being actual lies.

I hate liars.
I'm not at all sure in what sense you're using the word "lie" here. Do you have any reason to think that any statement of fact in the opening post is actually untrue? To the extent that I can check, every statement I've looked at pans out accurate. Would it help if we broke it down and found original sources for each statement?

If that's common ground, in what way is anything in the opening post a lie?


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Post by Ahso! »

It sounds to me like Williams' propensity of legal disobedience is not so different than one's propensity for racism. In both cases, the offender can't understand the consequences of the insults they propagate on others nor are they aware of the offense itself in most cases.

Instruction (often confrontational) rather than time out or incarceration in many instances yields the best results. Far more so than the American legal systems allows for, IMO.
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Post by tude dog »

FG;1440743 wrote: I'm not at all sure in what sense you're using the word "lie" here. Do you have any reason to think that any statement of fact in the opening post is actually untrue? To the extent that I can check, every statement I've looked at pans out accurate. Would it help if we broke it down and found original sources for each statement?

If that's common ground, in what way is anything in the opening post a lie?


Fair question. I consider the following so misleading to be a lie.

At about 12.40pm on 2 January 1996, Timothy Jackson took a jacket from the Maison Blanche department store in New Orleans, draped it over his arm, and walked out of the store without paying for it. When he was accosted by a security guard, Jackson said: “I just needed another jacket, man.”

A few months later Jackson was convicted of shoplifting and sent to Angola prison in Louisiana. That was 16 years ago. Today he is still incarcerated in Angola, and will stay there for the rest of his natural life having been condemned to die in jail. All for the theft of a jacket, worth $159.


Same with:

Ronald Washington, 48, is also serving life without parole in Angola, in his case for shoplifting two Michael Jordan jerseys from a Foot Action sportswear store in Shreveport, Louisiana, in 2004. Washington insisted at trial that the jerseys were reduced in a sale to $45 each – which meant that their combined value was below the $100 needed to classify the theft as a felony; the prosecution disagreed, claiming they were on sale for $60 each, thus surpassing the $100 felony minimum and opening him up to a sentence of life without parole


I'm no lawyer and don't know Louisiana law. That Ronald Washington guy at least had a legal argument. Seems the judge didn't buy it.

Like I pointed out in my previous post of the pizza thief:

repeat offenders are being punished not for their final convictions but for a history of wrongdoing
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Post by Bruv »

So Mr Tude.............if someone steals a hershey bar (Sure that's an American chocolte bar) then a leaves a McDonalds without paying for his quarter pounder, followed by a drunken affray after a night out.....they should throw the key away ?
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1440749 wrote: So Mr Tude.............if someone steals a hershey bar (Sure that's an American chocolte bar)


Hershey, Pennsylvania The community is home to The Hershey Company, which makes the well-known Hershey Bar and Hershey's Kisses and is the parent company of the H. B. Reese Candy Company, manufacturer of Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. Hershey's Chocolate World is a factory store and virtual tour ride of The Hershey Company.


Bruv;1440749 wrote: then a leaves a McDonalds without paying for his quarter pounder, followed by a drunken affray after a night out.....they should throw the key away ?


I had a whole answer for you then realized I misunderstood you.

Are you asking if

1, stealing a candy bar

2. stealing a hamburger

3. fighting

by themselves constitutes three strikes?

Unless somebody dies in the affray, I don't see any felonies there.
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Post by Bruv »

I read in my minimal research that two low level crimes get ramped up to a felony on the third crime.

It is as if they just go on the fact that the criminal will just go on and on misbehaving so lock him up sooner to save the hassle.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

In many states, privatization is taking over the prisons & there are enterprising capitalists making tons of dough off the system. Sounds like slavery to me. It's one thing to be locked up by the gov't; another to be watched, housed, fed, etc. by "contractors". It's disgusting.

We had a scandal a few years back, I believe in Pennsylvania, where a judge was indicted for sending teens to teen jail--Privatized teen jail--for very minor offenses. Seems the "honorable" judge was getting kickbacks to send these young people to this private hell. The story broke when a teen prisoner committed suicide, & his mom got to the bottom of it. She never let it go.
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1440760 wrote: I read in my minimal research that two low level crimes get ramped up to a felony on the third crime.

It is as if they just go on the fact that the criminal will just go on and on misbehaving so lock him up sooner to save the hassle.


Sir, I believe you are mistaken.

Three-strikes laws are statutes enacted by state governments in the United States which mandate state courts to impose harsher sentences on habitual offenders who are convicted of three or more serious criminal offenses. In most jurisdictions, only crimes at the felony level qualify as serious offenses.




Three-strikes law

It may have changed State of California could bump up a misdemeanor to felony after two previous felonies, like they did the pizza thief.

According to the article in the OP it seems in Louisiana all three convictions must be felonies.
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AnneBoleyn;1440767 wrote: In many states, privatization is taking over the prisons & there are enterprising capitalists making tons of dough off the system. Sounds like slavery to me. It's one thing to be locked up by the gov't; another to be watched, housed, fed, etc. by "contractors". It's disgusting.

We had a scandal a few years back, I believe in Pennsylvania, where a judge was indicted for sending teens to teen jail--Privatized teen jail--for very minor offenses. Seems the "honorable" judge was getting kickbacks to send these young people to this private hell. The story broke when a teen prisoner committed suicide, & his mom got to the bottom of it. She never let it go.


In California it is the prison guards, their union and the Democrat Party machine.

California Prison Guards Union Pushes For Prison Expansion

Two decades ago, the California prison guards union was one of the most feared political forces in the state. Its members poured millions into the campaign coffers of politicians who pledged to put more people behind bars, and ran aggressive ads against those who dared to cross them. Its boss, Don Novey, was a notorious character in Sacramento, a former prison guard whose tough tactics and trademark fedora earned him comparisons to Jimmy Hoffa.

HuffPuff

California Prison Academy: Better Than a Harvard Degree

Prison guards can retire at the age of 55 and earn 85% of their final year's salary for the rest of their lives. They also continue to receive medical benefits

Roughly 2,000 students have to decide by Sunday whether to accept a spot at Harvard. Here's some advice: Forget Harvard. If you want to earn big bucks and retire young, you're better off becoming a California prison guard.

The job might not sound glamorous, but a brochure from the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitations boasts that it "has been called 'the greatest entry-level job in California'—and for good reason. Our officers earn a great salary, and a retirement package you just can't find in private industry. We even pay you to attend our academy." That's right—instead of paying more than $200,000 to attend Harvard, you could earn $3,050 a month at cadet academy.

It gets better.

Training only takes four months, and upon graduating you can look forward to a job with great health, dental and vision benefits and a starting base salary between $45,288 and $65,364. By comparison, Harvard grads can expect to earn $49,897 fresh out of college and $124,759 after 20 years.

As a California prison guard, you can make six figures in overtime and bonuses alone. While Harvard-educated lawyers and consultants often have to work long hours with little recompense besides Chinese take-out, prison guards receive time-and-a-half whenever they work more than 40 hours a week. One sergeant with a base salary of $81,683 collected $114,334 in overtime and $8,648 in bonuses last year, and he's not even the highest paid.

Sure, Harvard grads working in the private sector get bonuses, too, but only if they're good at what they do. Prison guards receive a $1,560 "fitness" bonus just for getting an annual check-up.

Most Harvard grads only get three weeks of vacation each year, even after working for 20 years—and they're often too busy to take a long trip. Prison guards, on the other hand, get seven weeks of vacation, five of them paid. If they're too busy racking up overtime to use their vacation days, they can cash the days in when they retire. There's no cap on how many vacation days they can cash in! Eighty officers last year cashed in over $100,000 at retirement

[ among required qualifications]

The hardest part, however, is the written test, which includes word problems like this sample test question: "Building D currently has 189 inmates, with 92 beds unfilled. Building D is currently at what capacity?" If you've somehow forgotten how to add and divide, you can bone up on your basic math with Barron's "Correction Officer Exam" prep book.

WSJ

What a racket.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1440770 wrote: Sir, I believe you are mistaken.


Curtis Wilkerson.....a pair of socks

The length of time between the prior and new felony conviction does not affect the imposition of the new sentence, so serious and violent felony offenses committed many years before a new offense can be counted as prior strikes.

As a result of these provisions, the Three Strikes law significantly increases the length of time some repeat offenders spend in state prison. For example, consider a defendant who has prior convictions for assault on a police officer and burglary of a residence, both considered serious or violent crimes. Subsequently, he is convicted for receiving stolen property, a nonserious and nonviolent felony. Before the enactment of Three Strikes, he would typically have served two years for the property offense. Under the Three Strikes law, he would be sentenced to life in prison.



Statistics from the California Department of Corrections show that the law disproportionately affects minority populations. Over 45 percent of inmates serving life sentences under the Three Strikes law are African American. The Three Strikes law is also applied disproportionately against mentally ill and physically disabled defendants. California's State Auditor estimates that the Three Strikes law adds over $19 billion to the state's prison budget. Criminologists agree that life sentences for non-violent repeat offenders does nothing to improve public safety.
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Post by FG »

AnneBoleyn;1440767 wrote: Sounds like slavery to me.
I'm so glad someone else has finally said that.


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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1440795 wrote: Curtis Wilkerson.....a pair of socks

The length of time between the prior and new felony conviction does not affect the imposition of the new sentence, so serious and violent felony offenses committed many years before a new offense can be counted as prior strikes.

As a result of these provisions, the Three Strikes law significantly increases the length of time some repeat offenders spend in state prison. For example, consider a defendant who has prior convictions for assault on a police officer and burglary of a residence, both considered serious or violent crimes. Subsequently, he is convicted for receiving stolen property, a nonserious and nonviolent felony. Before the enactment of Three Strikes, he would typically have served two years for the property offense. Under the Three Strikes law, he would be sentenced to life in prison.



Statistics from the California Department of Corrections show that the law disproportionately affects minority populations. Over 45 percent of inmates serving life sentences under the Three Strikes law are African American. The Three Strikes law is also applied disproportionately against mentally ill and physically disabled defendants. California's State Auditor estimates that the Three Strikes law adds over $19 billion to the state's prison budget. Criminologists agree that life sentences for non-violent repeat offenders does nothing to improve public safety.


Weep weep weep. Cry me a river of tears. Such injustice indeed.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

tude dog;1440887 wrote: Weep weep weep. Cry me a river of tears. Such injustice indeed.


You are paying for those injustices in your taxes that you are always complaining about.
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Post by tude dog »

AnneBoleyn;1440908 wrote: You are paying for those injustices in your taxes that you are always complaining about.


I don't know any injustice was committed.

That Rolling Stone story was one piece of work.

I did Google that Curtis guy and can't get beyond the protests.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

FG;1440829 wrote: I'm so glad someone else has finally said that.


yep...no arguments here. the privatisation of the corrections system is beginning to take off here too. It has not passed anyone's notice that you have to fill all these new prisons for your shareholders to make a profit.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1440887 wrote: Weep weep weep. Cry me a river of tears. Such injustice indeed.
Justice USA Stylee ?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

With apologies to Annie......

He was just a Yid anyway.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

tude dog;1440887 wrote: Weep weep weep. Cry me a river of tears. Such injustice indeed.


You sure about that Tude?

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Post by YZGI »

fuzzywuzzy;1440920 wrote: yep...no arguments here. the privatisation of the corrections system is beginning to take off here too. It has not passed anyone's notice that you have to fill all these new prisons for your shareholders to make a profit.


That's a good point. It's the people in jail for marijuana that drive me crazy. It's legal in a lot of states and areas but we have people serving long or life sentences for it. And up till a few years ago I was a republican, of course I wasn't this new age right wing religious sort of republican.
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Post by Ahso! »

AnneBoleyn;1440767 wrote: In many states, privatization is taking over the prisons & there are enterprising capitalists making tons of dough off the system. Sounds like slavery to me. It's one thing to be locked up by the gov't; another to be watched, housed, fed, etc. by "contractors". It's disgusting.

We had a scandal a few years back, I believe in Pennsylvania, where a judge was indicted for sending teens to teen jail--Privatized teen jail--for very minor offenses. Seems the "honorable" judge was getting kickbacks to send these young people to this private hell. The story broke when a teen prisoner committed suicide, & his mom got to the bottom of it. She never let it go.


tude dog;1440775 wrote: In California it is the prison guards, their union and the Democrat Party machine.

California Prison Guards Union Pushes For Prison Expansion

Two decades ago, the California prison guards union was one of the most feared political forces in the state. Its members poured millions into the campaign coffers of politicians who pledged to put more people behind bars, and ran aggressive ads against those who dared to cross them. Its boss, Don Novey, was a notorious character in Sacramento, a former prison guard whose tough tactics and trademark fedora earned him comparisons to Jimmy Hoffa.

HuffPuff

California Prison Academy: Better Than a Harvard Degree

Prison guards can retire at the age of 55 and earn 85% of their final year's salary for the rest of their lives. They also continue to receive medical benefits

Roughly 2,000 students have to decide by Sunday whether to accept a spot at Harvard. Here's some advice: Forget Harvard. If you want to earn big bucks and retire young, you're better off becoming a California prison guard.

The job might not sound glamorous, but a brochure from the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitations boasts that it "has been called 'the greatest entry-level job in California'—and for good reason. Our officers earn a great salary, and a retirement package you just can't find in private industry. We even pay you to attend our academy." That's right—instead of paying more than $200,000 to attend Harvard, you could earn $3,050 a month at cadet academy.

It gets better.

Training only takes four months, and upon graduating you can look forward to a job with great health, dental and vision benefits and a starting base salary between $45,288 and $65,364. By comparison, Harvard grads can expect to earn $49,897 fresh out of college and $124,759 after 20 years.

As a California prison guard, you can make six figures in overtime and bonuses alone. While Harvard-educated lawyers and consultants often have to work long hours with little recompense besides Chinese take-out, prison guards receive time-and-a-half whenever they work more than 40 hours a week. One sergeant with a base salary of $81,683 collected $114,334 in overtime and $8,648 in bonuses last year, and he's not even the highest paid.

Sure, Harvard grads working in the private sector get bonuses, too, but only if they're good at what they do. Prison guards receive a $1,560 "fitness" bonus just for getting an annual check-up.

Most Harvard grads only get three weeks of vacation each year, even after working for 20 years—and they're often too busy to take a long trip. Prison guards, on the other hand, get seven weeks of vacation, five of them paid. If they're too busy racking up overtime to use their vacation days, they can cash the days in when they retire. There's no cap on how many vacation days they can cash in! Eighty officers last year cashed in over $100,000 at retirement

[ among required qualifications]

The hardest part, however, is the written test, which includes word problems like this sample test question: "Building D currently has 189 inmates, with 92 beds unfilled. Building D is currently at what capacity?" If you've somehow forgotten how to add and divide, you can bone up on your basic math with Barron's "Correction Officer Exam" prep book.

WSJ

What a racket.Come on, Anne, you began this little spat, now defend your position. This weak minded cherry picked argument of Tude's would cause anyone who enjoys debating to salivate to make dog meat of.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Ahso! »

Ahso!;1440956 wrote: Come on, Anne, you began this little spat, now defend your position. This weak minded cherry picked argument of Tude's would cause anyone who enjoys debating to salivate to make dog meat of.Anne, if you can't do this then do the next best and honorable thing by thanking TD for pointing out your error and the lesson he provided free of charge.

And BTW - before certain members begin accusing me of pushing people around? Clearly, the posts in this thread strongly suggest that the posters are seeking to be correct (right) by making certain points. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with that, it's a natural craving for competition.

Now, man-up, motherphuckers!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Bruv »

Mr Ahso........have you never noticed many arguments/questions have nuances/degrees, of agreement in the subtleties, but still total opposite views on the central point ?
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Post by Snowfire »

Oddly, it was only yesterday, that I read a NYT article and I'm only just recovering from the pain of my jaw hitting the floor. Stories of mandatory life sentences for non-violent crimes that even the presiding judges find appalling.

How can a society that heralds human rights to the world and castigates those that don't meet with their standards, imprison people for life without chance of parole, for non violent crimes ?

These people are victims of America’s disastrous experiment in mass incarceration. From the 1930s through the early 1970s, we incarcerated people at a steady rate. Since then, incarceration rates have roughly quintupled. America now imprisons people at more than five times the rates of most Western countries.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/14/opini ... .html?_r=1&

The war on drugs is a massive failure, certainly if these examples are anything to go by
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Bruv;1440959 wrote: Mr Ahso........have you never noticed many arguments/questions have nuances/degrees, of agreement in the subtleties, but still total opposite views on the central point ?


Uh oh! he called you Mr. If I'm correct in my assumptions of Bruv ........................... I believe you need to man up . cause he's not happy.
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Post by Ahso! »

Bruv;1440959 wrote: Mr Ahso........have you never noticed many arguments/questions have nuances/degrees, of agreement in the subtleties, but still total opposite views on the central point ?Bull! If someone makes the statement that the world is round and some moron wants to cherry pick quotes out of context in order to say otherwise - rather than defend mediocrity, You show them this:






End of story. There's. Nothing. Nuanced. About. It.
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Post by LarsMac »

Snowfire;1440962 wrote: Oddly, it was only yesterday, that I read a NYT article and I'm only just recovering from the pain of my jaw hitting the floor. Stories of mandatory life sentences for non-violent crimes that even the presiding judges find appalling.

How can a society that heralds human rights to the world and castigates those that don't meet with their standards, imprison people for life without chance of parole, for non violent crimes ?



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/14/opini ... .html?_r=1&

The war on drugs is a massive failure, certainly if these examples are anything to go by


I could answer your question by going into the thinking behind it, but, that might be interpreted as my being in agreement with it. I'd rather not have that happen.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1440979 wrote: I could answer your question by going into the thinking behind it, but, that might be interpreted as my being in agreement with it. I'd rather not have that happen.Why would that worry you if you're prepared to show whose thinking you'd be referring to? That shouldn't be too difficult, though it would require a small amount of work, which is better than just making unsubstantiated claims.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1440981 wrote: Why would that worry you if you're prepared to show whose thinking you'd be referring to? That shouldn't be too difficult, though it would require a small amount of work, which is better than just making unsubstantiated claims.


All right, let's give it a go.

The first thing to remember is that we are dealing with people who have already committed multiple violent crimes.

And the theory is that in many cases, these guys probably committed more crimes than the ones that they actually got caught doing and were actually punished for.

The follow-up, then is that now they get caught for another crime, often while on parole from previous offenses. They are habitual criminals. Let them walk from this "non-violent" crime, and somewhere down the road, they will be caught doing yet another violent crime.

These are generally not model citizens, who just got caught stepping over the line. There are also usually more details to the story than such articles will include.

The guy that is now doing life for smoking Crack? Did anyone mention that he had murdered his girlfriend, and was smoking the crack when they caught him? And they just chose to use the 3 strikes law and save her family the horror of a trial (not to mention the expense)



Yes, there are the occasional screw-ups that get caught in the system. I knew a guy that did some work for me. He had been in prison for armed robbery and again for assault, (Two strikes) and had since cleaned up his act and behaved himself for years. Then he did something really stupid - details of which I will omit - and got arrested. He is now in Angola Prison doing 25 years, and nothing any of us could do for him. It is definitely unfair.

Perhaps if we spent more time and effort truly trying to rehabilitate first offenders, there would be a lot fewer second and third strikes. Perhaps decriminalizing drugs would stop making criminals out of people who just want to have a good time. I dunno.

IT does seem pretty hypocritical of us to spout all our human rights BS, while having among the highest prison populations, per capita, in the world.

On the other hand, having been closer to a lot of the criminal type than I think most of the regulars here have been, I gotta say, don't feel too sorry for most of those guys, they brought it on themselves. And if they were out on the streets, you wouldn't want most of them as your neighbors.
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Post by Snowfire »

Sharanda's case, highlighted in the article, is a case in point. This was her first offense, no drugs were found in her possession and was convicted by the testimony of people trying to get a lighter sentence. She will die in prison. That to me is a travesty.

This isn't about seasoned criminals getting what they deserve.

LarsMac is right. Its essential that some sort of probation is given the chance to ensure that people do not re offend rather than to wait until they do, then throwing away the key.Where's the justice in that ?

Secondly there is a good point made by one of the commenters...Crack and Cocaine. Different penalties for what is essentially the same drug in different forms, depending on ethnic preferences ...Racism
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Post by LarsMac »

Snowfire;1440985 wrote: Sharanda's case, highlighted in the article, is a case in point. This was her first offense, no drugs were found in her possession and was convicted by the testimony of people trying to get a lighter sentence. She will die in prison. That to me is a travesty.

This isn't about seasoned criminals getting what they deserve.

LarsMac is right. Its essential that some sort of probation is given the chance to ensure that people do not re offend rather than to wait until they do, then throwing away the key.Where's the justice in that ?

Secondly there is a good point made by one of the commenters...Crack and Cocaine. Different penalties for what is essentially the same drug in different forms, depending on ethnic preferences ...Racism


My apologies, I did not read that article you linked to, before my reply. I was basing my statements from the OP and the three strikes, specifically.

However, I have to say that I have a particular distaste for Meth and in my not-so-humble-opinion, anyone manufacturing, transporting, distributing, or selling meth should be dealt with rather harshly. Yes, there is some emotional perspectives on my part. I have seen, first-hand, what that **** can do to people. And no, it has nothing to do with race. Pretty much the same feeling for Coke and Crack, but it's not as personal.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people in that article.
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Post by Ahso! »

As a point for clarification there's a difference, albeit not much of a difference, between three strikes and mandatory minimum sentencing. I personally think both are insane laws.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1441000 wrote: My apologies, I did not read that article you linked to, before my reply. I was basing my statements from the OP and the three strikes, specifically.

However, I have to say that I have a particular distaste for Meth and in my not-so-humble-opinion, anyone manufacturing, transporting, distributing, or selling meth should be dealt with rather harshly. Yes, there is some emotional perspectives on my part. I have seen, first-hand, what that **** can do to people. And no, it has nothing to do with race. Pretty much the same feeling for Coke and Crack, but it's not as personal.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people in that article.You are aware that there is a much simpler, humane and inexpensive way to deal with the meth situation, right?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1441026 wrote: You are aware that there is a much simpler, humane and inexpensive way to deal with the meth situation, right?


I would welcome hearing your simple, humane, and inexpensive way to deal with the meth situation.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1441028 wrote: I would welcome hearing your simple, humane, and inexpensive way to deal with the meth situation.Outlaw the manufacturing of pseudoephedrine. That's been known for some time now, but it's been proven to be an unwinnable fight with the pharmaceutical industry.

As I began t look into it again just now I see there is now an alternative nasal decongestant made by a small pharmaceutical company in Missouri that has altered the chemistry of their decongestant that makes the extraction of pseudoephedrine more difficult. Apparently it's only available there. This really will have little effect on meth though because pseudoephedrine is still available in products such as Sudafed.

Back in 2006 Dubya at least took the step of making the purchase of over the counter products that contain pseudoephedrine slightly more difficult to obtain, but that didn't work out that well. It proved to be just a challenge for the cooks to be solved.
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Post by tude dog »

Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post

Weep weep weep. Cry me a river of tears. Such injustice indeed.

Justice USA Stylee ?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

With apologies to Annie......

He was just a Yid anyway.


:-2
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Post by tude dog »

Don't know anything about it and don't care. Nothing relevant to my stance on three strike law.
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Post by tude dog »

Is this the passport to sell drugs?

She’s a 32-year-old mom with a 9-year-old daughter


Never heard of this gal before,

Even on Wikipedia, she sounds like a piece of work.

[edt, , Think about it. Why among all the drug dealers, only she gets life?[/edt
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Post by Bruv »

From the land that gave the world Guantanamo Bay
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1441072 wrote: From the land that gave the world Guantanamo Bay


Hey. We're centuries younger than you. Brits had their fair share of sh!t once upon a time, all of Europe did. Call it growing pains. Guantanamo Bay is nothing near the Inquisition or Auschwitz, etc. I know things about your adventures all over the globe before the Sun Set on the Empire.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1441036 wrote: Outlaw the manufacturing of pseudoephedrine. That's been known for some time now, but it's been proven to be an unwinnable fight with the pharmaceutical industry.

As I began t look into it again just now I see there is now an alternative nasal decongestant made by a small pharmaceutical company in Missouri that has altered the chemistry of their decongestant that makes the extraction of pseudoephedrine more difficult. Apparently it's only available there. This really will have little effect on meth though because pseudoephedrine is still available in products such as Sudafed.

Back in 2006 Dubya at least took the step of making the purchase of over the counter products that contain pseudoephedrine slightly more difficult to obtain, but that didn't work out that well. It proved to be just a challenge for the cooks to be solved.


They were cooking Meth long before that crap came out. It just became a lot easier to make, and every yokel in Missouri now has the recipe. Sure, getting rid of pseudoephedrine would make it more difficult to make, and make the stuff even more expensive. They'd be back to stealing fertilizer.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1441089 wrote: They were cooking Meth long before that crap came out. It just became a lot easier to make, and every yokel in Missouri now has the recipe. Sure, getting rid of pseudoephedrine would make it more difficult to make, and make the stuff even more expensive. They'd be back to stealing fertilizer.Taking the most widely used substance out of play is not a viable measure? "They'll" just cook with whatever is out there? That sounds cynical.

What steps or measures do you think the situation warrants?
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1441093 wrote: Taking the most widely used substance out of play is not a viable measure? "They'll" just cook with whatever is out there? That sounds cynical.

What steps or measures do you think the situation warrants?


The first thing that comes to mind is a summary firing squad.

But, I suppose that is a bit draconian.

I believe the long-term solution begins with safe, effective birth control and education, followed by decent jobs for people so we no longer have a bunch of unemployed, bored, uneducated youth with nothing better to do than find ways to cook their brains.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1441099 wrote: The first thing that comes to mind is a summary firing squad.

But, I suppose that is a bit draconian.

I believe the long-term solution begins with safe, effective birth control and education, followed by decent jobs for people so we no longer have a bunch of unemployed, bored, uneducated youth with nothing better to do than find ways to cook their brains.I don't know what happened to whom within your circle of family or friends, and I'm sorry for whatever it was. It's got you awful angry, and you have a right to your anger - I wouldn't dare tell you it's unjustified. However, there has to come a time when you cease letting that anger make you appear self-righteous. You're not. I know that. You're just hurting. But don't let it rob you of your reasonable judgment for too long because it will eventually turn habitual.

People who smoke or cook crack or meth are not "bad" people, they're only people who've made decisions that are detrimental to both themselves and their loved ones. I have to assume that knowing you you already know that.

So what gives?
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1441158 wrote: I don't know what happened to whom within your circle of family or friends, and I'm sorry for whatever it was. It's got you awful angry, and you have a right to your anger - I wouldn't dare tell you it's unjustified. However, there has to come a time when you cease letting that anger make you appear self-righteous. You're not. I know that. You're just hurting. But don't let it rob you of your reasonable judgment for too long because it will eventually turn habitual.

People who smoke or cook crack or meth are not "bad" people, they're only people who've made decisions that are detrimental to both themselves and their loved ones. I have to assume that knowing you you already know that.

So what gives?


Being around, Drunks, junkies, speedfreaks and crackheads for 45 years, and seeing them all for what they really can be kinda colors your viewpoint.

Don't think for a minute that they don't realize what they are doing.

We (the family) have just the last couple of days been dealing with a whole new adventure. I have decided it is not the nephew that should be shot, but his enabling mother.
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Post by Ahso! »

In retrospect, one thing I realize about my addictions is my ability or at least belief in my ability to adapt to them. As i would go deeper the more determined I'd become to handle it. It's an interesting voyage in that respect.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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