Kathy Ellen;1308023 wrote: Thanks Pete...I know that you're more concerned about the parents:-6
Also the victems family are in our thoughts very much. How tough this must be for them? I'm sure we will have a verdict soon though and time will tell. Thankyou again Kathy.
It's in process
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Ralph Millward trial: ?I didn?t want them to hurt him? court told (From Thisisdorset)
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
All three boys have been found not guilty of murder.
All three boys have been found guilty of manslaughter and the judge has lifted the ban on naming the three boys.
Jimmy Ayres, Warren Crago and Craig Real guilty of killing Ralph Millward (From Bournemouth Echo)
All three boys have been found guilty of manslaughter and the judge has lifted the ban on naming the three boys.
Jimmy Ayres, Warren Crago and Craig Real guilty of killing Ralph Millward (From Bournemouth Echo)
It's in process
Give the wife a hug for me, please
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
It's in process
And you all have to wait until 30 June before the sentences are announced? That's a long time.
The foreman of the jury sounds like he made a complete pigs ear of delivering the verdicts.
The foreman of the jury sounds like he made a complete pigs ear of delivering the verdicts.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
It's in process
that was indeed a viscous attack....over tobacco.......good lord.
god rest his soul.
hopefully the 3 have learned a lesson.:rolleyes:
god rest his soul.
hopefully the 3 have learned a lesson.:rolleyes:
Life is just to short for drama.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
flopstock;1311836 wrote: Give the wife a hug for me, please Thank you.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
spot;1311841 wrote: And you all have to wait until 30 June before the sentences are announced? That's a long time.
The foreman of the jury sounds like he made a complete pigs ear of delivering the verdicts.
What makes you think that Spot?
The foreman of the jury sounds like he made a complete pigs ear of delivering the verdicts.
What makes you think that Spot?
It's in process
Peter Lake;1311864 wrote: What makes you think that Spot?
it was in the article, they will be sentenced next month.
it was in the article, they will be sentenced next month.
Life is just to short for drama.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Odie;1311868 wrote: it was in the article, they will be sentenced next month.
I'm well aware of the article and if you knew anything of English murder and manslaughter trials you would know that they are never handed down a sentence on the same day as the verdict. Many factors have to be considered before the judge gives any form of sentence and that always takes time. The average is around a month between the verdict and the sentencing. I was asking Spot why he thought it was a pigs ear of delivering the verdict not the wait in sentencing.
I'm well aware of the article and if you knew anything of English murder and manslaughter trials you would know that they are never handed down a sentence on the same day as the verdict. Many factors have to be considered before the judge gives any form of sentence and that always takes time. The average is around a month between the verdict and the sentencing. I was asking Spot why he thought it was a pigs ear of delivering the verdict not the wait in sentencing.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1311876 wrote: I'm well aware of the article and if you knew anything of English murder and manslaughter trials you would know that they are never handed down a sentence on the same day as the verdict. Many factors have to be considered before the judge gives any form of sentence and that always takes time. The average is around a month between the verdict and the sentencing. I was asking Spot why he thought it was a pigs ear of delivering the verdict not the wait in sentencing.
What I was reading said the foreman read it wrong the first time and had to be corrected.
What I was reading said the foreman read it wrong the first time and had to be corrected.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
flopstock;1311879 wrote: What I was reading said the foreman read it wrong the first time and had to be corrected.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1311876 wrote: I'm well aware of the article and if you knew anything of English murder and manslaughter trials you would know that they are never handed down a sentence on the same day as the verdict. Many factors have to be considered before the judge gives any form of sentence and that always takes time. The average is around a month between the verdict and the sentencing. I was asking Spot why he thought it was a pigs ear of delivering the verdict not the wait in sentencing.
no sentencing takes place anywhere on the day of conviction/verdict.
no sentencing takes place anywhere on the day of conviction/verdict.
Life is just to short for drama.
It's in process
As the flopster said.The foreman of the jury initially delivered the wrong three verdicts, saying "not guilty" when asked if they were guilty of murder but another juror stood up and said "that's wrong". The foreman said he had been confused as he meant they were not guilty of murder and did not realise he had to add the words, guilty of manslaughter.
BBC News - Three kicked to death Big Issue seller in Bournemouth
The Bebo chat space for the Bourne Estate Boiz presumably offers a flavour of life at the time for the lads in question. It does seem to ritualize violence, rather in the way some tribal football support groups did in the 70s and 80s. We're great, everyone else is rubbish, but no hint of where the greatness might lie beyond an alleged willingness to go one on one with knives.
BBC News - Three kicked to death Big Issue seller in Bournemouth
The Bebo chat space for the Bourne Estate Boiz presumably offers a flavour of life at the time for the lads in question. It does seem to ritualize violence, rather in the way some tribal football support groups did in the 70s and 80s. We're great, everyone else is rubbish, but no hint of where the greatness might lie beyond an alleged willingness to go one on one with knives.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
spot;1311894 wrote: As the flopster said.The foreman of the jury initially delivered the wrong three verdicts, saying "not guilty" when asked if they were guilty of murder but another juror stood up and said "that's wrong". The foreman said he had been confused as he meant they were not guilty of murder and did not realise he had to add the words, guilty of manslaughter.
BBC News - Three kicked to death Big Issue seller in Bournemouth
The Bebo chat space for the Bourne Estate Boiz presumably offers a flavour of life at the time for the lads in question. It does seem to ritualize violence, rather in the way some tribal football support groups did in the 70s and 80s. We're great, everyone else is rubbish, but no hint of where the greatness might lie beyond an alleged willingness to go one on one with knives. Thank you Spot as i didn't read the link that you've posted.
There is no doubt that this was a sustained brutal attack and there's no excuses to be made.
Sadly, the pathologists reports showed that the victem was in very poor health due to alcohol and drug abuse for many years along with being exposed to the elements every night. The boys did not comprehend how fragile his health was at the time of the attack and maybe another in good health would have survived but as i said, that is no excuse.
The media seems to have shyed away from reporting the extent and detail of the victems injuries but the questions remain of, which boy delivered the fatal blow and which blow of many was the fatal one? That is why it was always impossible to deliver a verdict for murder. From what we knew before the trial, one was guilty of murder and two wern't. All boys gave conflicting evidence and one of the six arrested turned as witness for the prosecution giving a different account to the boys.
I believe they will probably be sentenced to no more than ten years as their ages at the time would be taken into account. With good behaviour less time on remand, they will be out in four years.
BBC News - Three kicked to death Big Issue seller in Bournemouth
The Bebo chat space for the Bourne Estate Boiz presumably offers a flavour of life at the time for the lads in question. It does seem to ritualize violence, rather in the way some tribal football support groups did in the 70s and 80s. We're great, everyone else is rubbish, but no hint of where the greatness might lie beyond an alleged willingness to go one on one with knives. Thank you Spot as i didn't read the link that you've posted.
There is no doubt that this was a sustained brutal attack and there's no excuses to be made.
Sadly, the pathologists reports showed that the victem was in very poor health due to alcohol and drug abuse for many years along with being exposed to the elements every night. The boys did not comprehend how fragile his health was at the time of the attack and maybe another in good health would have survived but as i said, that is no excuse.
The media seems to have shyed away from reporting the extent and detail of the victems injuries but the questions remain of, which boy delivered the fatal blow and which blow of many was the fatal one? That is why it was always impossible to deliver a verdict for murder. From what we knew before the trial, one was guilty of murder and two wern't. All boys gave conflicting evidence and one of the six arrested turned as witness for the prosecution giving a different account to the boys.
I believe they will probably be sentenced to no more than ten years as their ages at the time would be taken into account. With good behaviour less time on remand, they will be out in four years.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
spot;1311894 wrote: As the flopster said.
The Bebo chat space for the Bourne Estate Boiz presumably offers a flavour of life at the time for the lads in question. . You are correct about the Bourne estate boiz Spot and that's what i was trying to get through to ahso earlier on.
Three teens named and shamed after brutally kicking Big Issue seller to death over a pack of cigarettes | Mail Online
Unless anyone has had experience of how gang culture works, it must seem mindless but to some boys it's all they know. In the article, Oscars is first on the left.
The Bebo chat space for the Bourne Estate Boiz presumably offers a flavour of life at the time for the lads in question. . You are correct about the Bourne estate boiz Spot and that's what i was trying to get through to ahso earlier on.
Three teens named and shamed after brutally kicking Big Issue seller to death over a pack of cigarettes | Mail Online
Unless anyone has had experience of how gang culture works, it must seem mindless but to some boys it's all they know. In the article, Oscars is first on the left.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Video footage just after the attack.
Text message warning to teenage killers that Ralph Millward had died (From Bournemouth Echo)
Scroll down article for video.
Text message warning to teenage killers that Ralph Millward had died (From Bournemouth Echo)
Scroll down article for video.
It's in process
my god, these so called 'baby faced killers' went after him a second time?
while his body lay limp? - was one viscous beating just not enough?
they should have been sentenced to first degree murder.
teens need to be taught just because their drinking is no excuse.
just because its their first crime...is no excuse.
you do the crime.........you pay the time......no excuses.
while his body lay limp? - was one viscous beating just not enough?
they should have been sentenced to first degree murder.
teens need to be taught just because their drinking is no excuse.
just because its their first crime...is no excuse.
you do the crime.........you pay the time......no excuses.
Life is just to short for drama.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Odie;1311948 wrote: just because its their first crime...is no excuse.
you do the crime.........you pay the time......no excuses. Who said it was their first crime? Naturally they pay the time, they've been in prison for a year already since they were charged and there's no doubt they will do more time, yet, don't hold your breath waiting for life imprisonment. England is notoriously lame where youth manslaughter is concerned. I believe they will each get no more than ten years and be out in four years. Due to the ages at the time of the victems death, the judge has to take that into consideration as they were tried as youths not adults.
you do the crime.........you pay the time......no excuses. Who said it was their first crime? Naturally they pay the time, they've been in prison for a year already since they were charged and there's no doubt they will do more time, yet, don't hold your breath waiting for life imprisonment. England is notoriously lame where youth manslaughter is concerned. I believe they will each get no more than ten years and be out in four years. Due to the ages at the time of the victems death, the judge has to take that into consideration as they were tried as youths not adults.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1311950 wrote: Who said it was their first crime? Naturally they pay the time, they've been in prison for a year already since they were charged and there's no doubt they will do more time, yet, don't hold your breath waiting for life imprisonment. England is notoriously lame where youth manslaughter is concerned. I believe they will each get no more than ten years and be out in four years. Due to the ages at the time of the victems death, the judge has to take that into consideration as they were tried as youths not adults.
Oh, I never said life..........
It upset me to read that article, and how they came back 30 minutes later...
Canada is also notoriously lame for youths.
Canada's maximum for first degree murder is only 25 years.:-5
Oh, I never said life..........
It upset me to read that article, and how they came back 30 minutes later...
Canada is also notoriously lame for youths.
Canada's maximum for first degree murder is only 25 years.:-5
Life is just to short for drama.
It's in process
Odie;1311960 wrote: Canada's maximum for first degree murder is only 25 years.:-5The word you're looking for, Odie, is "minimum". Maximum is when it's the most, minimum is when it's the least. Canada's minimum for first degree murder is only 25 years[1]. You really are wobbly when it comes to making accurate statements of fact.
Odie wrote: they should have been sentenced to first degree murderEngland doesn't actually have such a sentence. First and second degree are categories of murder that Canada imported from somewhere else. Maybe it was Mexico?
eta: [1] Except... one in fifteen prisoners sentenced for first degree murder in Canada is released between 15 and 25 years on a "faint hope" clause, which is continually in the process of being repealed. It's meant to give everyone serving a minimum 25 year sentence a reason for improving their conduct in prison.
Odie wrote: they should have been sentenced to first degree murderEngland doesn't actually have such a sentence. First and second degree are categories of murder that Canada imported from somewhere else. Maybe it was Mexico?
eta: [1] Except... one in fifteen prisoners sentenced for first degree murder in Canada is released between 15 and 25 years on a "faint hope" clause, which is continually in the process of being repealed. It's meant to give everyone serving a minimum 25 year sentence a reason for improving their conduct in prison.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1311944 wrote:
Unless anyone has had experience of how gang culture works, it must seem mindless but to some boys it's all they know.
And why is it, that's all they know Mr. Lake? How does a society let their youth run rampant?
It appears alcohol abuse is prevalent in your country. Perhaps revamping the drinking age would help? I was surprised when I found and read the legal age limits for minors to be able purchase and consume alcohol in your country.
Erowid Alcohol Vaults : Law : Alcohol Drinking Age in the U.K. (England, Scotland, Wales)
Gangs work only in numbers. Give them enough liquid steel (alcohol) and they become brave enough to do anything. But, get them alone, and they aren't so confident and courageous.
After reading the article about the boys who killed, it is noted that they had a past history with breaking the law. Where is/was the adult supervision in their lives?
The boys who killed Ralph Millward (From Bournemouth Echo)
Unless anyone has had experience of how gang culture works, it must seem mindless but to some boys it's all they know.
And why is it, that's all they know Mr. Lake? How does a society let their youth run rampant?
It appears alcohol abuse is prevalent in your country. Perhaps revamping the drinking age would help? I was surprised when I found and read the legal age limits for minors to be able purchase and consume alcohol in your country.
Erowid Alcohol Vaults : Law : Alcohol Drinking Age in the U.K. (England, Scotland, Wales)
Gangs work only in numbers. Give them enough liquid steel (alcohol) and they become brave enough to do anything. But, get them alone, and they aren't so confident and courageous.
After reading the article about the boys who killed, it is noted that they had a past history with breaking the law. Where is/was the adult supervision in their lives?
The boys who killed Ralph Millward (From Bournemouth Echo)
It's in process
Mustang;1312021 wrote: And why is it, that's all they know Mr. Lake? How does a society let their youth run rampant?
It appears alcohol abuse is prevalent in your country. Perhaps revamping the drinking age would help? I was surprised when I found and read the legal age limits for minors to be able purchase and consume alcohol in your country.
Erowid Alcohol Vaults : Law : Alcohol Drinking Age in the U.K. (England, Scotland, Wales)
Gangs work only in numbers. Give them enough liquid steel (alcohol) and they become brave enough to do anything. But, get them alone, and they aren't so confident and courageous.
After reading the article about the boys who killed, it is noted that they had a past history with breaking the law. Where is/was the adult supervision in their lives?
The boys who killed Ralph Millward (From Bournemouth Echo)
The alcohol laws of this country may seem archaic but similar laws in France allow the consumption of alcohol at a young age and there isnt the level of abuse that you find here. Its quite normal for young children in France to drink wine at the table with their parents. The problems may lie in a different lap, as it does in Ireland. Gang warfare was exported from the US, I believe. An influence we could have done well without.
I'm certainly not proud of our alcohol and violence problems and I'm not even sure of the reasons or solutions. For sure adult supervision and influences play a large and important part. Most of us are fortunate to look at these problems from the outside. We have presumably done all the right things in bringing up our children. Its easy to point the finger from the outside looking in. "There but for the Grace of God"...... and all that
It appears alcohol abuse is prevalent in your country. Perhaps revamping the drinking age would help? I was surprised when I found and read the legal age limits for minors to be able purchase and consume alcohol in your country.
Erowid Alcohol Vaults : Law : Alcohol Drinking Age in the U.K. (England, Scotland, Wales)
Gangs work only in numbers. Give them enough liquid steel (alcohol) and they become brave enough to do anything. But, get them alone, and they aren't so confident and courageous.
After reading the article about the boys who killed, it is noted that they had a past history with breaking the law. Where is/was the adult supervision in their lives?
The boys who killed Ralph Millward (From Bournemouth Echo)
The alcohol laws of this country may seem archaic but similar laws in France allow the consumption of alcohol at a young age and there isnt the level of abuse that you find here. Its quite normal for young children in France to drink wine at the table with their parents. The problems may lie in a different lap, as it does in Ireland. Gang warfare was exported from the US, I believe. An influence we could have done well without.
I'm certainly not proud of our alcohol and violence problems and I'm not even sure of the reasons or solutions. For sure adult supervision and influences play a large and important part. Most of us are fortunate to look at these problems from the outside. We have presumably done all the right things in bringing up our children. Its easy to point the finger from the outside looking in. "There but for the Grace of God"...... and all that
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
-
Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
It's in process
Mustang;1312021 wrote: I was surprised when I found and read the legal age limits for minors to be able purchase and consume alcohol in your country.
It is an offence to sell alcohol to anyone under 18, or to buy alcohol on behalf of anyone under 18, or for anyone under 18 to drink alcohol on "relevant premises" (i.e. pubs, etc.).
The only exception is that children over 16 are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with a meal (a real meal that is, not an excuse such as a bag of crisps or snack or "bar meal") in "relevant premises", if with an adult.
What is so surprising?
It is an offence to sell alcohol to anyone under 18, or to buy alcohol on behalf of anyone under 18, or for anyone under 18 to drink alcohol on "relevant premises" (i.e. pubs, etc.).
The only exception is that children over 16 are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with a meal (a real meal that is, not an excuse such as a bag of crisps or snack or "bar meal") in "relevant premises", if with an adult.
What is so surprising?
-
Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
It's in process
Snowfire;1312028 wrote: Gang warfare was exported from the US
That I doubt, as the 'States is comparatively "young".
That I doubt, as the 'States is comparatively "young".
It's in process
Bill Sikes;1312052 wrote: It is an offence to sell alcohol to anyone under 18, or to buy alcohol on behalf of anyone under 18, or for anyone under 18 to drink alcohol on "relevant premises" (i.e. pubs, etc.).
The only exception is that children over 16 are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with a meal (a real meal that is, not an excuse such as a bag of crisps or snack or "bar meal") in "relevant premises", if with an adult.
What is so surprising?
What's surprising to me is anyone offering a minor, 5 or over, any alcohol whatsoever in their home.
A rhetorical question but why would an adult start a youngster at an early age to consume alcoholic beverages? What's the benefit? Would it not become an addiction down the road? Why not let children enjoy their youth without pushing adult pleasures onto them.
The only exception is that children over 16 are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with a meal (a real meal that is, not an excuse such as a bag of crisps or snack or "bar meal") in "relevant premises", if with an adult.
What is so surprising?
What's surprising to me is anyone offering a minor, 5 or over, any alcohol whatsoever in their home.
A rhetorical question but why would an adult start a youngster at an early age to consume alcoholic beverages? What's the benefit? Would it not become an addiction down the road? Why not let children enjoy their youth without pushing adult pleasures onto them.
It's in process
Mustang;1312055 wrote: What's surprising to me is anyone offering a minor, 5 or over, any alcohol whatsoever in their home.
A rhetorical question but why would an adult start a youngster at an early age to consume alcoholic beverages? What's the benefit? Would it not become an addiction down the road? Why not let children enjoy their youth without pushing adult pleasures onto them.
I have never known anybody to offer their 5 year old children alcohol but I wouldnt object to young teenagers being given wine, maybe diluted, with their meal. Its not a remarkable thing to do in France or maybe Italy. Quite common in fact. It doesnt glorify the use, or over use of alcohol
The sort of abuse of children and alcohol you suggest would be I suspect astonishingly rare and could happen in any culture regardless of any law in place
A rhetorical question but why would an adult start a youngster at an early age to consume alcoholic beverages? What's the benefit? Would it not become an addiction down the road? Why not let children enjoy their youth without pushing adult pleasures onto them.
I have never known anybody to offer their 5 year old children alcohol but I wouldnt object to young teenagers being given wine, maybe diluted, with their meal. Its not a remarkable thing to do in France or maybe Italy. Quite common in fact. It doesnt glorify the use, or over use of alcohol
The sort of abuse of children and alcohol you suggest would be I suspect astonishingly rare and could happen in any culture regardless of any law in place
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Mustang;1312055 wrote: What's surprising to me is anyone offering a minor, 5 or over, any alcohol whatsoever in their home.
A rhetorical question but why would an adult start a youngster at an early age to consume alcoholic beverages? What's the benefit? Would it not become an addiction down the road? Why not let children enjoy their youth without pushing adult pleasures onto them.
Are you talking in general or is your question aimed at the parents of the boys?
A rhetorical question but why would an adult start a youngster at an early age to consume alcoholic beverages? What's the benefit? Would it not become an addiction down the road? Why not let children enjoy their youth without pushing adult pleasures onto them.
Are you talking in general or is your question aimed at the parents of the boys?
It's in process
Peter Lake;1312069 wrote: Are you talking in general or is your question aimed at the parents of the boys?
In general Mr. Lake.
In general Mr. Lake.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Mustang;1312021 wrote: And why is it, that's all they know Mr. Lake? How does a society let their youth run rampant?
After reading the article about the boys who killed, it is noted that they had a past history with breaking the law. Where is/was the adult supervision in their lives?
]
When we see killings like this in our country, it is natural that we all assume they have no parental guidence and are left to run feral. That may be true in some cases but parents often find their hands tied when recognising that their child is going off the rails. When parents at this stage beg police and the courts for help and are met with nothing but legislation they are often banging their heads against a brick wall. They are told that if they lock their child in the house to stop him roaming the streets with a gang, they face prosecution for false imprisonment. If their father should raise a hand, he faces prosecution for assault and risks his remaining children being taken by social services. It is all very well to pass an opinion from press cuttings but the reality is very different and until you've been in that situation and experienced the frustration of soft policing, soft courts that didn't come down hard enough on them when they began with petty crime, you will never understand. Only when they have killed do the people who should have helped the family in the first place sit up and take notice. One of these boys parents begged for help and got nothing but threats.
After reading the article about the boys who killed, it is noted that they had a past history with breaking the law. Where is/was the adult supervision in their lives?
]
When we see killings like this in our country, it is natural that we all assume they have no parental guidence and are left to run feral. That may be true in some cases but parents often find their hands tied when recognising that their child is going off the rails. When parents at this stage beg police and the courts for help and are met with nothing but legislation they are often banging their heads against a brick wall. They are told that if they lock their child in the house to stop him roaming the streets with a gang, they face prosecution for false imprisonment. If their father should raise a hand, he faces prosecution for assault and risks his remaining children being taken by social services. It is all very well to pass an opinion from press cuttings but the reality is very different and until you've been in that situation and experienced the frustration of soft policing, soft courts that didn't come down hard enough on them when they began with petty crime, you will never understand. Only when they have killed do the people who should have helped the family in the first place sit up and take notice. One of these boys parents begged for help and got nothing but threats.
It's in process
Snowfire;1312066 wrote: I have never known anybody to offer their 5 year old children alcohol but I wouldnt object to young teenagers being given wine, maybe diluted, with their meal. Its not a remarkable thing to do in France or maybe Italy. Quite common in fact. It doesnt glorify the use, or over use of alcohol
The sort of abuse of children and alcohol you suggest would be I suspect astonishingly rare and could happen in any culture regardless of any law in place
I understand your reasoning Snowfire, regarding those countries mentioned.
It's the way the laws are written from country to country that amazes me, I suppose. To state 5 or over. Why 5.
I know here, giving alcohol to a minor would be considered contributing to the delinquency of a minor and one would be charged for that offense, if caught.
The sort of abuse of children and alcohol you suggest would be I suspect astonishingly rare and could happen in any culture regardless of any law in place
I understand your reasoning Snowfire, regarding those countries mentioned.
It's the way the laws are written from country to country that amazes me, I suppose. To state 5 or over. Why 5.
I know here, giving alcohol to a minor would be considered contributing to the delinquency of a minor and one would be charged for that offense, if caught.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1312071 wrote: When we see killings like this in our country, it is natural that we all assume they have no parental guidence and are left to run feral. That may be true in some cases but parents often find their hands tied when recognising that their child is going off the rails. When parents at this stage beg police and the courts for help and are met with nothing but legislation they are often banging their heads against a brick wall. They are told that if they lock their child in the house to stop him roaming the streets with a gang, they face prosecution for false imprisonment. If their father should raise a hand, he faces prosecution for assault and risks his remaining children being taken by social services. It is all very well to pass an opinion from press cuttings but the reality is very different and until you've been in that situation and experienced the frustration of soft policing, soft courts that didn't come down hard enough on them when they began with petty crime, you will never understand. Only when they have killed do the people who should have helped the family in the first place sit up and take notice. One of these boys parents begged for help and got nothing but threats.
That's the truth. It is a shame that it takes tragedy to wake some people up. Too sad though, that the parents that asked for help earlier didn't receive any.
Hopefully, when these boys are incarcerated, they will somehow be rehabilitated and become productive members of society.
That's the truth. It is a shame that it takes tragedy to wake some people up. Too sad though, that the parents that asked for help earlier didn't receive any.
Hopefully, when these boys are incarcerated, they will somehow be rehabilitated and become productive members of society.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Mustang;1312070 wrote: In general Mr. Lake.
The binge drinking problem here i believe is key to many of these horrific crimes. I blame the twenty four hour drinking laws and retail outlets who are selling drink at cut price along with bars that offer, all you can drink for £10 which i understand is about to be stopped. In this case, the boys should never have been that intoxicated and i was dissapointed that Dorset police didn't prosecute the individual who bought and knowingly gave potent cider and vodka to a fourteen and two sixteen year olds. Maybe if those that do buy alcohol for children faced a prison term it may save a few cases like this. Even where i live i am stopped all the time by young kids asking if i'll go in the supermarket to buy them drink and then been sworn at for refusing but it's a culture in this country that i wish i had answers for. Just because a young teenager is drinking on the street it doesn't go hand in hand with parents allowing them alcohol in the home. With gang culture, it's often a street credibility stance for their peers rather than a dependency that they've developed young from the parents.
The binge drinking problem here i believe is key to many of these horrific crimes. I blame the twenty four hour drinking laws and retail outlets who are selling drink at cut price along with bars that offer, all you can drink for £10 which i understand is about to be stopped. In this case, the boys should never have been that intoxicated and i was dissapointed that Dorset police didn't prosecute the individual who bought and knowingly gave potent cider and vodka to a fourteen and two sixteen year olds. Maybe if those that do buy alcohol for children faced a prison term it may save a few cases like this. Even where i live i am stopped all the time by young kids asking if i'll go in the supermarket to buy them drink and then been sworn at for refusing but it's a culture in this country that i wish i had answers for. Just because a young teenager is drinking on the street it doesn't go hand in hand with parents allowing them alcohol in the home. With gang culture, it's often a street credibility stance for their peers rather than a dependency that they've developed young from the parents.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Mustang;1312074 wrote: That's the truth. It is a shame that it takes tragedy to wake some people up. Too sad though, that the parents that asked for help earlier didn't receive any.
Hopefully, when these boys are incarcerated, they will somehow be rehabilitated and become productive members of society. Thank you, that's a nice thing to say.
Hopefully, when these boys are incarcerated, they will somehow be rehabilitated and become productive members of society. Thank you, that's a nice thing to say.
-
Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
It's in process
Snowfire;1312066 wrote: (boozing) Pssst! It's a *rhetorical question*!
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Snowfire;1312028 wrote: . Most of us are fortunate to look at these problems from the outside. We have presumably done all the right things in bringing up our children. Its easy to point the finger from the outside looking in. "There but for the Grace of God"...... and all that My apologies Snowfire as i missed your post. I don't think you could have said better words in this case. It's very easy to be smug and convince ourselves that we know best when raising children and good heavens above, none of our own children would commit such a crime but then i would wager any amount that any teenager is never always where they tell their parents they are going and it is a there for the grace of god go i example. It only takes a very short period of soft policing and soft courts before the kid comes to believe he is bomb proof and they push the limits further each time. It only takes a child to push those limits a little too far because they have not been stamped on when they should have been by the right people while the crimes were petty, and you can have a situation like this. Not all teenage killers come from deprived homes with no parents who care as they come from all walks of life. I hope this example is a lesson for the new government that change is needed before another innocent dies.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1312115 wrote: I hope this example is a lesson for the new government that change is needed before another innocent dies.
In what way do you think any of this is the responsibility of government?
In what way do you think any of this is the responsibility of government?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
spot;1312120 wrote: In what way do you think any of this is the responsibility of government?
I don't have the answers Spot but i believe that's what we elect our leaders for, to have the answers. I am rather hoping for a tougher line to be taken by police and courts and more help for the family when the child begins down the path of petty crime and the directive for those changes comes from government i believe?
I don't have the answers Spot but i believe that's what we elect our leaders for, to have the answers. I am rather hoping for a tougher line to be taken by police and courts and more help for the family when the child begins down the path of petty crime and the directive for those changes comes from government i believe?
It's in process
Those changes might. Actions, on the other hand, are individual. It makes no difference at all if a government does this or that, when an individual action fires off mass outrage aimed at governance rather than the nature of society. Clean up the reckless profit-based all-pervading filth of the mass media and things might change for the better. Exploding over one Peter Huntley (to take a random example) and blaming politicians is simply a refusal to look at the world with any sense of reality. It's merely cheap exploitation of circumstances beyond the control of anyone but the individual delinquent.
Governments have, at most, an influence over statistical trends. They never dictate events.
Governments have, at most, an influence over statistical trends. They never dictate events.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Mustang;1312074 wrote: That's the truth. It is a shame that it takes tragedy to wake some people up. Too sad though, that the parents that asked for help earlier didn't receive any.
Hopefully, when these boys are incarcerated, they will somehow be rehabilitated and become productive members of society.
How ironic that my and your words are now proven correct and plain to see?
Council review to look at how thugs became Ralph Millward killers (From Bournemouth Echo)
This has just appeared but now the victem is dead out come the council asking questions and expecting answers to appease the public and media. I am furious over the council only now asking questions when the victems death could have been prevented if the right people intervened long before when the boys first showed signs of delinquency and the parents needed help. This enquiry is way too late and only seeks to lay the blame on anything they can.
Hopefully, when these boys are incarcerated, they will somehow be rehabilitated and become productive members of society.
How ironic that my and your words are now proven correct and plain to see?
Council review to look at how thugs became Ralph Millward killers (From Bournemouth Echo)
This has just appeared but now the victem is dead out come the council asking questions and expecting answers to appease the public and media. I am furious over the council only now asking questions when the victems death could have been prevented if the right people intervened long before when the boys first showed signs of delinquency and the parents needed help. This enquiry is way too late and only seeks to lay the blame on anything they can.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1312160 wrote: How ironic that my and your words are now proven correct and plain to see?
Council review to look at how thugs became Ralph Millward killers (From Bournemouth Echo)
This has just appeared but now the victem is dead out come the council asking questions and expecting answers to appease the public and media. I am furious over the council only now asking questions when the victems death could have been prevented if the right people intervened long before when the boys first showed signs of delinquency and the parents needed help. This enquiry is way too late and only seeks to lay the blame on anything they can.
Sure, it takes a case like this to open eyes. Somebody should be held accountable for lack of their action to get involved.
It's a starting point, an inquisition into the inadequate system they now have instilled with a possibility of improving it in the future.
Council review to look at how thugs became Ralph Millward killers (From Bournemouth Echo)
This has just appeared but now the victem is dead out come the council asking questions and expecting answers to appease the public and media. I am furious over the council only now asking questions when the victems death could have been prevented if the right people intervened long before when the boys first showed signs of delinquency and the parents needed help. This enquiry is way too late and only seeks to lay the blame on anything they can.
Sure, it takes a case like this to open eyes. Somebody should be held accountable for lack of their action to get involved.
It's a starting point, an inquisition into the inadequate system they now have instilled with a possibility of improving it in the future.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Mustang;1312226 wrote: Sure, it takes a case like this to open eyes. Somebody should be held accountable for lack of their action to get involved.
It's a starting point, an inquisition into the inadequate system they now have instilled with a possibility of improving it in the future.
I agree with you all the way but i have a suspicion that they won't be looking at the failures in their departments but seek to destroy the parents in order to save their own skins. The man was very popular in his town and quite rightly the public are demanding answers. From my own observations of the estate, it seemed almost as if the police were afraid in some sense to police the estate and intervene between the rival gangs leaving other residents sitting ducks. With little police action the boys thought they were untouchable. I am not laying the sole blame on the council or police as one of the boys parents have since moved house to save their younger son following in the footsteps of his elder brother but this could have been an option to them earlier on in the day. Sadly a life is lost before questions get asked.
It's a starting point, an inquisition into the inadequate system they now have instilled with a possibility of improving it in the future.
I agree with you all the way but i have a suspicion that they won't be looking at the failures in their departments but seek to destroy the parents in order to save their own skins. The man was very popular in his town and quite rightly the public are demanding answers. From my own observations of the estate, it seemed almost as if the police were afraid in some sense to police the estate and intervene between the rival gangs leaving other residents sitting ducks. With little police action the boys thought they were untouchable. I am not laying the sole blame on the council or police as one of the boys parents have since moved house to save their younger son following in the footsteps of his elder brother but this could have been an option to them earlier on in the day. Sadly a life is lost before questions get asked.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
4 years, 9 months for manslaughter?:-5
4 years detention?
90 weeks in custody?
kids stuff!
4 years detention?
90 weeks in custody?
kids stuff!
Life is just to short for drama.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Odie;1320005 wrote: 4 years, 9 months for manslaughter?:-5
4 years detention?
90 weeks in custody?
kids stuff!
You have to take into account the English penal system where their sentences will be halved for good behaviour, then minus the year they have spent on remand. Craig and Warren will be back on the streets in a year and Jimmy today walked free as his sentence exceeded time spent on remand awaiting trial.
It's kids stuff because by our laws, they had to be sentenced as children.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dors ... n=BBC+News
Don't worry odie, Craig will probably get sent to Vinney Green where he'll have televisions, computers, pizza on a friday night, who knows? He may join forum garden when he's not using the gym or the sauna.
4 years detention?
90 weeks in custody?
kids stuff!
You have to take into account the English penal system where their sentences will be halved for good behaviour, then minus the year they have spent on remand. Craig and Warren will be back on the streets in a year and Jimmy today walked free as his sentence exceeded time spent on remand awaiting trial.
It's kids stuff because by our laws, they had to be sentenced as children.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dors ... n=BBC+News
Don't worry odie, Craig will probably get sent to Vinney Green where he'll have televisions, computers, pizza on a friday night, who knows? He may join forum garden when he's not using the gym or the sauna.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1320014 wrote: You have to take into account the English penal system where their sentences will be halved for good behaviour, then minus the year they have spent on remand. Craig and Warren will be back on the streets in a year and Jimmy today walked free as his sentence exceeded time spent on remand awaiting trial.
It's kids stuff because by our laws, they had to be sentenced as children.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dors ... n=BBC+News
Don't worry odie, Craig will probably get sent to Vinney Green where he'll have televisions, computers, pizza on a friday night, who knows? He may join forum garden when he's not using the gym or the sauna.
Craig Real bludgeoned him to death, 17 years old is not a kid.
He knew what he was doing.
It's kids stuff because by our laws, they had to be sentenced as children.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dors ... n=BBC+News
Don't worry odie, Craig will probably get sent to Vinney Green where he'll have televisions, computers, pizza on a friday night, who knows? He may join forum garden when he's not using the gym or the sauna.
Craig Real bludgeoned him to death, 17 years old is not a kid.
He knew what he was doing.
Life is just to short for drama.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Odie;1320016 wrote: Craig Real bludgeoned him to death, 17 years old is not a kid.
He knew what he was doing.
Do try to keep up with the story odie. He was sixteen at the time of the killing and that's what the judge had to take into account. Please try to get your facts straight also. Craig Real didn't bludgeon him to death, he kicked him to death.
He knew what he was doing.
Do try to keep up with the story odie. He was sixteen at the time of the killing and that's what the judge had to take into account. Please try to get your facts straight also. Craig Real didn't bludgeon him to death, he kicked him to death.
It's in process
Peter Lake;1320019 wrote: Do try to keep up with the story odie. He was sixteen at the time of the killing and that's what the judge had to take into account. Please try to get your facts straight also. Craig Real didn't bludgeon him to death, he kicked him to death.
doesn't matter, he still killed him.
4 years and out in 2 for good behavior is nothing compared to killing that poor man.:-5
doesn't matter, he still killed him.
4 years and out in 2 for good behavior is nothing compared to killing that poor man.:-5
Life is just to short for drama.
-
Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
It's in process
Odie;1320020 wrote: doesn't matter, he still killed him.
4 years and out in 2 for good behavior is nothing compared to killing that poor man.:-5
I was questioning where you'd got 'Craig Real bludgeoned him to death' as there seems to be no such statement in any of the newspaper reports. So, where did you get 'Craig Real bludgeoned him to death'? Or did you just make it up?
More to the point, why highlight Craig Real and his sentence? Why not highlight the one sentence that most are talking about, that of Jimmy who got just nine months? Why not highlight Warren and his four year sentence? So what made you jump straight to the sentence of Craig Real?
4 years and out in 2 for good behavior is nothing compared to killing that poor man.:-5
I was questioning where you'd got 'Craig Real bludgeoned him to death' as there seems to be no such statement in any of the newspaper reports. So, where did you get 'Craig Real bludgeoned him to death'? Or did you just make it up?
More to the point, why highlight Craig Real and his sentence? Why not highlight the one sentence that most are talking about, that of Jimmy who got just nine months? Why not highlight Warren and his four year sentence? So what made you jump straight to the sentence of Craig Real?