This is what it's coming to...

[Raven]

This is becoming more and more common. What the hell is going on here? It's not children we are raising. The level of violence is appalling.



BBC News - Edlington torture attack brothers detained

[spot]

Have you considered the family life the pair of them were subjected to? It seems to be a common factor in what few cases there have been like this one. Children routinely watching unrated horror videos get a dreadful sense of what the world's like.

[Ahso!]

Sometimes there isn't any reason at all. People, especially children at times do things that are distasteful and even horrific just because.

But when one considers how many people pass through life the incidence is quite low thankfully.

But Spot may be correct. It wouldn't hurt to go take a look at the family. The only problem is that if theres nothing to find, the family and all its indiscretions have been exposed. May not be pretty.

[CARLA]

I couldn't completely read what they actually did to the boys it disturbed me so.

Kids are exposed to much violence these day in movies, games, TV, and in their home lives it has to effect them adversely espically those who are on the edge emotionally. "Monkey see Monkey do" espically if they have no guidance otherwise.

[pantoandy]

spot;1284427 wrote: Have you considered the family life the pair of them were subjected to? It seems to be a common factor in what few cases there have been like this one. Children routinely watching unrated horror videos get a dreadful sense of what the world's like.


oh dont start this poor misguided little boys cobblers!!!!!

you sound as bad as the bleeding heart do gooders who wring their hands for these two little scroats.

a minimum of 5 years is a slap on the wrist which they will spend in council care and not even end up in a young offenders institution where their lives would be threatend .

this is a venables and thompson senario all over again protect the rights of this scum they should be named and shamed along with their so called parents.

apparantly there is also a court order preventing these scum from being named or photgraphed in the papers but this does not stop the world wide web facebook etc where they can be named there.

i used to stand the market in edlington and i am from doncaster orginally myself

and there is a saying what goes around comes around they,ll get theirs eventually but you,ll never see it printed.

its time for a return to borstals and detention centres and for the law to get some balls and pass apropriate sentances

[spot]

Good lord, after all these years Andy's finally joined a thread rather than started one. I never thought I'd live to see the day.

It's cause and effect, Andy. If a child's treated that way there's a risk it'll turn out that way. Try to find me a child behaving that way which hasn't first been abused throughout its childhood. Allocate blame where blame's due.

Maybe the two are mendable at this stage, maybe they're not, I've no idea. If they're not they'll not be released. If they are then good luck to them.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1284770 wrote: Try to find me a child behaving that way which hasn't first been abused throughout its childhood. Allocate blame where blame's due.

. I'll find you one Spot... My sisters kid and the two co-defendents with him awaiting trial.

When ever some-thing like this comes up, you always look to the parents, that's natural.

I don't know If you read todays report in the Mail ( saturday) where these two young boys home lives were detailed in full. They were smoking Cannibis and drinking alcohol at 9 years old. They watched their mother regually battered by a violent drunk father who cultivated cannibis on his allotment. They watched with their father, his porn movies as young as 9 years old. They were subjected to horrific beatings by the thug father and had to watch him beat their mother too terrified to Intervene. They grew up in what was described in court as 'A Toxic enviroment'. They were also subjected to horric films such as 'Chucky and 'Saw' as young as 6 years old. Sorry Andy... We agree on many things but in this case, These boys were an accident waiting to happen due to their dreadful home life. Again, this is a case where the boys came to the attention of social services and the police more than 30 times before the Incident and nothing was done. Society has failed these boys over and over again. All the signs were there as their crimes became increasing more violent as time went on.

My nephew on the other hand... Decent parents who I believe did their best but obviousley failed some-where. My nephew was not allowed to watch voilent films, drink etc and was a caring lad who helped with his siblings. He did voluntary work and had Impeccable manners. The type of kid who would open doors for the elderly, give up his seat on the bus etc etc. When he pleaded in Court, the prosecution gave their reasons for denying bail. They detailed some of the victems Injuries. His head Injuries were described as consistent with a high speed head on car crash with no seat belt. He had over 100 Injuries and one particually gruesome Injury that I can not post here but we were all sickened and wondered how the hell anyone could do that to another human being let alone a child doing It to another human being. These Injuries will be heard In court and I'm sure the press will have a field day. There is your comparison Spot. Boys from completely different homes. One violent in the case of the two boys and loving homes with not a glimpse of violence or abuse in the home of my nephew. So what Is your conclusion now?

[spot]

Oscar, that's purely diversionary. You know perfectly well we're discussing children who torture and kill other children, not all child criminals. They're a peculiar subset and I stand by what I said.

[kazalala]

spot;1284770 wrote: Good lord, after all these years Andy's finally joined a thread rather than started one. I never thought I'd live to see the day.

It's cause and effect, Andy. If a child's treated that way there's a risk it'll turn out that way. Try to find me a child behaving that way which hasn't first been abused throughout its childhood. Allocate blame where blame's due.

Maybe the two are mendable at this stage, maybe they're not, I've no idea. If they're not they'll not be released. If they are then good luck to them.


I read a bit about what their homelife was like and even, apparently, the father at first tried to say it couldnt be them as they were with him! In my opinion the parents should be brought to task in these cases.

A child that age broughtup in a warm, caring, loving family does not do these things.

[spot]

kazalala;1284851 wrote: A child that age broughtup in a warm, caring, loving family does not do these things.Oscar will, I hope, correct me if I misremember her previous posts, but I was under the impression that her nephew at the age of ten or eleven had shown no sign of what was to come. To put him up as a counter-example to these children is disingenuous.

[kazalala]

spot;1284855 wrote: Oscar will, I hope, correct me if I misremember her previous posts, but I was under the impression that her nephew at the age of ten or eleven had shown no sign of what was to come. To put him up as a counter-example to these children is disingenuous.


I think Oscars Nephew was 14 at the time. I have brought up two children, one of them a son, and also worked with kids form the ages of 8 through to 18 and seen them grow. In my opinion there is a very big difference to a boy at the age of 10 or 11, than at the age of 14.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1284855 wrote: Oscar will, I hope, correct me if I misremember her previous posts, but I was under the impression that her nephew at the age of ten or eleven had shown no sign of what was to come. To put him up as a counter-example to these children is disingenuous.
It is a perfect example of your previous quote that children who carry out such horrific attacks are abused by their parents. The example I gave is a perfect comparison. Compare the loving home my nephew was brought up in, the caring acts he displayed all his life doing voluntary work, caring for his younger siblings, one with special needs, one who has a heart defect, having manners and social graces even being disgusted at other teenagers who vandalised a war memorial.. Yet, he is accussed of what the Investigating Detective told me personally as 'THE most brutal murder' he has ever witnessed. You are correct that my nephew at the age of 10 or 11 showed no sign of what was to come although by the time he was 14, he had notched up 10 arrests in just one year, with the assaults becoming Increasingly violent. His mother even pleaded with Magistrates to electronically tag him but she fell on deaf ears. Yet, his alleged crime is as brutal if not more than the attack these two boys carried out. The three boys accussed in my nephews case, I know of their up-bringing. One, I would question but not my nephew or the other 16 year old.

So... You explain It Spot. Our family has never had any of our young display such violence ( He has admitted to the police his part In It) and we ask ourselves questions as to where this has come from every day of our lives. I talk to him every week in prison and he himself doesn't know why he played his part. Was It gang culture, peer pressure, an act to seek attention.... What? If he himself doesn't know then we are all the more in the dark. Drink and pills played a part that night but that Is still no excuse.

You explain Spot?

I find that with the PACT meetings I attend with local police regually, the yobs that are the biggest problem to them do not come from the sink Estate mentality of single parent on benifits as the media like to play out. Most come from decent homes with both working parents. Parents who are so mortgaged to the hilt and spent the plastic to the max that they are both doing three jobs to pay for It leaving little Johnny, Rodney, Cedrick or Kyle to roam the streets being a bloddy menace to the public, completely oblivious as to where they are, who they are with, what they are doing and what they are capable of.

[spot]

You know perfectly well we're discussing children who torture and kill other children, not all child criminals. They're a peculiar subset and I stand by what I said.

This is Mary Bell territory, the Bulger murders territory, it's not teenage wolf-packs rampaging through town hyped up on drugs.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1284987 wrote: You know perfectly well we're discussing children who torture and kill other children, not all child criminals. They're a peculiar subset and I stand by what I said.

This is Mary Bell territory, the Bulger murders territory, it's not teenage wolf-packs rampaging through town hyped up on drugs.
I do not agree with the way you differentiate between the two. The two boys discussed in this thread are only different in ages. Had they not of tortured two other boys at the ages of 10 and 11, I'm in no doubt they would have tortured and possibly killed at a later stage in their lives when they got to 16, the age of my nephew. There is only a 5 year gap here between ages.

You stated that in cases such as this, those carrying out the attacks were always or nearly always subject to abuse at home and I gave you the perfect example of a lad who had barely had his 16th birthday in the same position. One of his co-defendents had just had his 14th birthday. Both came from loving homes with absolutely no abuse, no violence and no exposure to porn or violent films or games.

I don't see why you can not answer my questions I put to you earlier.

[mikeinie]

spot;1284770 wrote: Good lord, after all these years Andy's finally joined a thread rather than started one. I never thought I'd live to see the day.

It's cause and effect, Andy. If a child's treated that way there's a risk it'll turn out that way. Try to find me a child behaving that way which hasn't first been abused throughout its childhood. Allocate blame where blame's due.

Maybe the two are mendable at this stage, maybe they're not, I've no idea. If they're not they'll not be released. If they are then good luck to them.


It is this thinking that gives excuses to people these days to commits terrible abuses. ‘Oh, it happened to me when I was small, so therefore it is OK for me to be an animal as well.’ BS, people are not necessarily responsible for what happens to them, but they are responsible for what they do.

'Our background and circumstances

may have influenced who we are,

But, we are responsible for who we become. '

[kazalala]

mikeinie;1285092 wrote: It is this thinking that gives excuses to people these days to commits terrible abuses. ‘Oh, it happened to me when I was small, so therefore it is OK for me to be an animal as well.’ BS, people are not necessarily responsible for what happens to them, but they are responsible for what they do.

'Our background and circumstances

may have influenced who we are,

But, we are responsible for who we become. '


Yes when we are an adult Mike,,, not when we are 10 and 11 years old surely?

[spot]

oscar;1285076 wrote: I do not agree with the way you differentiate between the two. The two boys discussed in this thread are only different in ages. Had they not of tortured two other boys at the ages of 10 and 11, I'm in no doubt they would have tortured and possibly killed at a later stage in their lives when they got to 16, the age of my nephew. There is only a 5 year gap here between ages.

You stated that in cases such as this, those carrying out the attacks were always or nearly always subject to abuse at home and I gave you the perfect example of a lad who had barely had his 16th birthday in the same position. One of his co-defendents had just had his 14th birthday. Both came from loving homes with absolutely no abuse, no violence and no exposure to porn or violent films or games.

I don't see why you can not answer my questions I put to you earlier.


I agree with all of your earlier list of possibilities - gang culture, peer pressure, an act to seek attention, drink and pills - in the case of teenage yobs. I'd add that a diet of Transformer-style aggression on the TV doesn't exactly help them define a moral universe either. None of that applies to the two the thread's focused on. There's a pattern when it comes to Mary Bell, the Bulger murderers and these two. By all means come up with counter-examples that fit the area of focus, I'd be interested to see any. They're not just different in ages, they're different in type.

[Raven]

spot;1284427 wrote: Have you considered the family life the pair of them were subjected to? It seems to be a common factor in what few cases there have been like this one. Children routinely watching unrated horror videos get a dreadful sense of what the world's like.
Nah that isnt it. I got to watch cool horror movies at a young age as well. I certainly never tortured anyone. Nor desired to. True, my horror watching activities were all done under the supervision of my Mother, who felt quite happy 'belt smacking' my butt on occasion, but still. I play violent video games as well. However the difference is conscience. I have one. Children like these two have no boundaries. Why is that? And if this is typical of kids today, what the heck are we doing to create these monsters?

[spot]

Raven;1285140 wrote: Nah that isnt it. I got to watch cool horror movies at a young age as well. I certainly never tortured anyone. Nor desired to. True, my horror watching activities were all done under the supervision of my Mother, who felt quite happy 'belt smacking' my butt on occasion, but still. I play violent video games as well. However the difference is conscience. I have one. Children like these two have no boundaries. Why is that? And if this is typical of kids today, what the heck are we doing to create these monsters?


Would you agree they'd not have ended where they are if they'd had a good home background? Or are you saying they were born that way?

I'm out of my depth and ignorant when it comes to discussing them, I've no experience and it's not something I'm educated about. I'd offer as a possibility that children (at least up to the age of ten or eleven) try to find ways to please their parents. Perhaps children in this category who have behaved in similar fashion have only had positive feedback for each incremental antisocial act they've committed outside of the family and never found any other way of pleasing their parents. I've no idea of the facts at the moment, I'm just wondering.

[Raven]

I think it goes way deeper than that. I think there might just be something about being born bad. Look at some of the most cruel and notorious serial killers, for instance Jeffrey Dahmer. He had an extremely loving home and upbringing. I think personally it has something to do with DNA and genes. Something that sends them into what was described by a doctor of one these kids, a socio-path. There is no worse in Mental Health. For this involves emotions and conscience. To discover why, we have to delve deep into secets. Like too thin a blood line, if you get my meaning. Strange how alot of the worst cases in Britain seem to come from Yorkshire? Why is that? What is going on up there genetically or environmentally?

[mikeinie]

There is a guy I use to know who lives in Atlanta (I say ‘use to ‘as I have been in contact with him for many years)… anyway, he is a prison guard in a maximum security prison. I asked him once about his experiences and his thoughts on stuff like this, and he told that based on what he sees that there are three types of criminals.

1. Good person in a bad situation: In other words you have someone who is a decent person that due to a bad situation ended up doing something stupid which they regret.

2. Product of their environment: these are people who are either born in a bad area, or come from good areas but are badly influenced, or are raised in a violent family life, and end up in a life of crime.

3. Pure evil: Then he said that there are those who are just evil. No reason, no background, just evil people who would kill you without it even giving them a second thought and would not lose a minutes sleep over it.

That what he said anyway.

[Raven]

Pure evil in medical terms is called socio-pathic. Psycho pathic is something medicine can control. Socio pathic has no such remedy. Back in the day, they used to call this type of person possessed. What is disturbing is that is what a Psychiatrist who examined those boys said they had the potential of becoming. Socio-pathic. That is soooo disturbing!:-3

[kazalala]

Raven;1285154 wrote: I think it goes way deeper than that. I think there might just be something about being born bad. Look at some of the most cruel and notorious serial killers, for instance Jeffrey Dahmer. He had an extremely loving home and upbringing. I think personally it has something to do with DNA and genes. Something that sends them into what was described by a doctor of one these kids, a socio-path. There is no worse in Mental Health. For this involves emotions and conscience. To discover why, we have to delve deep into secets. Like too thin a blood line, if you get my meaning. Strange how alot of the worst cases in Britain seem to come from Yorkshire? Why is that? What is going on up there genetically or environmentally?


I have to agree with some of this. I do believe we are born wth a certain amount of Charater, personality if you like, and one child would not become a spolit brat no matter how much they were spolit, whereas anther child would be insufferable if spoilt. So some children wouild be pre disposed to react to a bad upbringing differently to some other children, Im having difficuly articulating again so i hope you understand what im saying. So a child born with a different DNA or character would not react as these children did even though they were brought up the same way, but that still says that maybe if these children were brought up in a warm, loving and more structured environment maybe they would not have murdered. Or ,,, maybe their tendencies would still inevitably be brought out at a later age?

This is making me think far too much

I still cant make myself believe a 10 year old child is just plain evil.

[spot]

Raven;1285166 wrote: Pure evil in medical terms is called socio-pathic. Psycho pathic is something medicine can control. Socio pathic has no such remedy. Back in the day, they used to call this type of person possessed. What is disturbing is that is what a Psychiatrist who examined those boys said they had the potential of becoming. Socio-pathic. That is soooo disturbing!:-3


I note that the diagnosis can't be made on anyone under the age of eighteen, Raven. I'm sure there's a reason for that.

[Raven]

spot;1285174 wrote: I note that the diagnosis can't be made on anyone under the age of eighteen, Raven. I'm sure there's a reason for that.
Yes this is true. Thats why the doctor said they could potentially. But what if? What if they are already socio-pathic? It is not really that far fetched considering their crimes.

[Raven]

kazalala;1285173 wrote: I have to agree with some of this. I do believe we are born wth a certain amount of Charater, personality if you like, and one child would not become a spolit brat no matter how much they were spolit, whereas anther child would be insufferable if spoilt. So some children wouild be pre disposed to react to a bad upbringing differently to some other children, Im having difficuly articulating again so i hope you understand what im saying. So a child born with a different DNA or character would not react as these children did even though they were brought up the same way, but that still says that maybe if these children were brought up in a warm, loving and more structured environment maybe they would not have murdered. Or ,,, maybe their tendencies would still inevitably be brought out at a later age?

This is making me think far too much

I still cant make myself believe a 10 year old child is just plain evil.
There are plenty of children with worse upbringings, that dont mutilate, torture and only stopped short of murdering because their wee arms got tired. Those are your everyday yobs. These guys are something special. An abberration if you will. You have to remember we did not always view children with loving eyes Kaz. Society used to treat them horribly, yet they usually did not do things like this. I was profoundly disturbed by a psychiatrist labelling them as socio-pathic. That is what society calls unequivacably evil. Makes you wonder. Dahmer used to torture little animals like squirrels when he was a kid. It was known he was always like he was, even as a child. I hope those boys are given proper medical attention from the mental health folks. But somehow I doubt it.

[spot]

Raven;1285178 wrote: Yes this is true. Thats why the doctor said they could potentially. But what if? What if they are already socio-pathic? It is not really that far fetched considering their crimes.


I agree with you entirely. If that's where they end up when they reach eighteen then they'll be detained longer. If they're certifiable they'll never get out, those are the rules. If they're rehabilitated to the satisfaction of the medics then they'll be released back into the community on licence, with a long period of probation, before they reach the age where they'd have to move to either a prison or a secure adult psychiatric facility.

[pantoandy]

what a lot of hot air and diatribe is being spoken on is subject

ok social services have failed this family but its the blame the horror movies and parents senario again.

these two boys where 10 and 11 and are capable of making up their own minds

of what is right and wrong so please do not come the bleeding heart routine

these two boys are feral they where not forced to drink or smoke weed or watch porn films or saw etc.

they are old enough to deferenciate between right and wrong.

i hope their sentence is increased and perhaps a long term in jail locked away from society will rehabilitate these boys.

at one time these boys would have been sent to borstal on a sentence of her majestys pleasure .

but because of the bleeding heart brigade we get poor mite ..take them to alton towers or buy them an x box because they need one to help them rehabilitate.

WHAT A LOAD OF B*****KS !!!!!!

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE PEOPLE THEY ARE FERAL CRIMINALS WHO NEED TO BE LOCKED AWAY FROM SOCIETY FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE AS THEY ARE A DANGER TO THE PUBLIC..............



and as for the hand wringing bleeding hearts in my opinion they are as dangerous as the 2 boys who have been caged

[Ahso!]

pantoandy;1285420 wrote: what a lot of hot air and diatribe is being spoken on is subject

ok social services have failed this family but its the blame the horror movies and parents senario again.

these two boys where 10 and 11 and are capable of making up their own minds

of what is right and wrong so please do not come the bleeding heart routine

these two boys are feral they where not forced to drink or smoke weed or watch porn films or saw etc.

they are old enough to deferenciate between right and wrong.

i hope their sentence is increased and perhaps a long term in jail locked away from society will rehabilitate these boys.

at one time these boys would have been sent to borstal on a sentence of her majestys pleasure .

but because of the bleeding heart brigade we get poor mite ..take them to alton towers or buy them an x box because they need one to help them rehabilitate.

WHAT A LOAD OF B*****KS !!!!!!

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE PEOPLE THEY ARE FERAL CRIMIALS WHO NEED TO BE LOCKED AWAY FROM SOCIETY FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE AS THEY ARE A DANGER TO THE PUBLIC..............



and as for the hand wringing bleeding hearts in my opinion they are as dangerous as the 2 boys who have been cagedSo whats your excuse for torturing us with this nonsense? I'm not in complete agreement of the opposing view here, but you're scarey.

[spot]

Ahso!;1285422 wrote: So whats your excuse for torturing us with this nonsense? I'm not in complete agreement of the opposing view here, but you're scarey.


Andy seems not to have noticed that I'm entirely in agreement they should never be released, unless the next few years achieves a turnaround and they're successfully rehabilitated. Were he honest I think he'd agree all he really wants is to see them continually punished, with no attempt to reconstruct them made at all.

The sentence passed is in fact exactly what Andy's demanding, that they serve an indefinite sentence which could extend to the end of their natural lives unless they're passed by a parole board as fit to re-enter society on licence. There's a minimum attached to that of five years. Why he has a problem with this formulation I can't even begin to imagine.

[kazalala]

Apparently Kevin Tools is some sort of child crime expert.

SADISTIC child attackers are rare [...] - mirror.co.uk



SADISTIC child attackers are rare [...]

*

*

By Kevin Toolis 23/01/2010

Sadistic child attackers are rare but usually have two common but deadly characteristics - a brutal upbringing and a violent competitive demand for attention.

Like the Edlington brothers, extremely violent children emerge from family backgrounds that are chaotic and violent.

From toddlers, the children will have witnessed the extremes of domestic abuse, violent arguments, smashed furniture and physical and sexual violence.

Drug and alcohol abuse are also common. The absence of any sustained parenting has a profound psychological effect. These children come to believe that physical abuse is just a normal part of human behaviour.



Failed by their violent parents, the children themselves fail to grasp the difference between right and wrong. Emotionally neglected, these potential child killers are angry with their parents for abandoning them and compete for attention. At school, they bully other children and attack their teachers. With their poor social skills and impulsive behaviour, they lash out in violence. At home, they are often left for hours in front of the television or exposed to violent video games.

Like the notorious Mary Bell and Jamie Bulger cases, the brothers also operated duo or dyad -meaning two acting as one.

The "capture" and torture of their two victims was just another violent game and the horror of what they were doing lost.

Their lack of empathy for other human beings makes them a danger to society for as long as they live.

[kazalala]

pantoandy;1285420 wrote: what a lot of hot air and diatribe is being spoken on is subject

ok social services have failed this family but its the blame the horror movies and parents senario again.

these two boys where 10 and 11 and are capable of making up their own minds

of what is right and wrong so please do not come the bleeding heart routine

these two boys are feral they where not forced to drink or smoke weed or watch porn films or saw etc.

they are old enough to deferenciate between right and wrong.

i hope their sentence is increased and perhaps a long term in jail locked away from society will rehabilitate these boys.

at one time these boys would have been sent to borstal on a sentence of her majestys pleasure .

but because of the bleeding heart brigade we get poor mite ..take them to alton towers or buy them an x box because they need one to help them rehabilitate.



WHAT A LOAD OF B*****KS !!!!!!

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE PEOPLE THEY ARE FERAL CRIMINALS WHO NEED TO BE LOCKED AWAY FROM SOCIETY FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE AS THEY ARE A DANGER TO THE PUBLIC..............



and as for the hand wringing bleeding hearts in my opinion they are as dangerous as the 2 boys who have been caged


Did you read this thread? i dont think anyone here said anything of the sort

[Oscar Namechange]

Ahso!;1285422 wrote: So whats your excuse for torturing us with this nonsense? I'm not in complete agreement of the opposing view here, but you're scarey.
And whats your excuse for critising Andy? I;m in total agreement with him and so are many people.

People like you never consider the victems. Andy is right, the two criminals will enjoy days out at the tax payers expense while the two victems will probably never recover. Wait until It's your son or daughter that is the victem, then you'd be screaming for them to be strung up.

[Ahso!]

oscar;1285566 wrote: And whats your excuse for critising Andy? I;m in total agreement with him and so are many people.

People like you never consider the victems. Andy is right, the two criminals will enjoy days out at the tax payers expense while the two victems will probably never recover. Wait until It's your son or daughter that is the victem, then you'd be screaming for them to be strung up.People like me, Oscar? Please get a grip!

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1285440 wrote: Andy seems not to have noticed that I'm entirely in agreement they should never be released, unless the next few years achieves a turnaround and they're successfully rehabilitated. Were he honest I think he'd agree all he really wants is to see them continually punished, with no attempt to reconstruct them made at all.

The sentence passed is in fact exactly what Andy's demanding, that they serve an indefinite sentence which could extend to the end of their natural lives unless they're passed by a parole board as fit to re-enter society on licence. There's a minimum attached to that of five years. Why he has a problem with this formulation I can't even begin to imagine.
Spot... Re our previous debate where you claim that all sadistic child torturers or murderers are abused.

To continue that: You can only give three precedents as a total conclusion. They are one's most discussed in the press... Mary Bell, Thompson & Venebles and these boys. I feel It is more co-incidence that the three cases are the three cases most reported on and that the subject had a bad up-bringing. Many Many cases are similar to these murders and crimes and are not high-lighted in the press as much and there-fore we do not have the same Insight into their back-grounds.

I obviousley can not go Into details but In my village we have a stone's throw from my house one of the Countries 9 maximum security units for children. It was recently the subject of a tv programme and Daily Mail Insight report. It houses the countries very worst child murderers, rapists and arsonists. All the children are under 16 but some are as young as 9 and 10 years old. For many years, my husband delivered to this unit and some-times still does when he helps his friend out. Over the years we have come to know the wardens and staff there and I've even had advice about my nephew from some of their most seasoned re-hab officers. They have told me many times that some of the worst offenders carrying out the most sickening violence come from good homes where there is not a shred of evidence of abuse or exposure to drugs, alcohol or violent movies. Many do come from toxic homes but many don't. I remember one officer telling me a year ago how a young lad had re-offended just to get back to the unit because he got decent food In there and regualar food. However, I have been told that many families are left asking themselves all the questions that our family are asking right now when their child comes from a stable loving home, yet commits such vile acts.

A mile from my home Is another secure unit for over 16 year olds where my nephew is awiting trial. Again, over the years we have come to know well many of the wardens there. My Beat manager Police Officer for my village was once a warden there himself. We are all In agreement that the In-mates are a mixture of good and toxic homes and back-grounds. Of course I can not give you Individual cases as I would be breaking confidences.

In another are of the country, my nephews co-defendent is being held in a secure Unit for under 16 year olds as he is 14 years old. Again, the In-mates do not all come from toxic back-grounds.

Your own anaylisis centres purely on three cases broadly reported in the press over a span of 40 years. You are basing your conclusion on 3 cases in 40 years or so yet violent vrimes are commited regually by young children, we just don't get to read about them.

[Oscar Namechange]

Ahso!;1285567 wrote: People like me, Oscar? Please get a grip! So explain yourself. Why critise Andy's post?

YouTube - The Stranglers - Get a Grip On Yourself

Play this when you get bored.

[spot]

oscar;1285570 wrote: You are basing your conclusion on 3 cases in 40 years or so yet violent vrimes are commited regually by young children, we just don't get to read about them.
Codswallop. By all means produce examples we can discuss. This generalization of yours is pure ill-informed bigotry.

I agreed with you as far as older children are concerned. I agreed with you about the reasons you offered. As far as 10-11 year olds killing or torturing other children, which is all I was discussing, you're simply blowing hot air to no purpose.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1285591 wrote: Codswallop. By all means produce examples we can discuss. This generalization of yours is pure ill-informed bigotry.

I agreed with you as far as older children are concerned. I agreed with you about the reasons you offered. As far as 10-11 year olds killing or torturing other children, which is all I was discussing, you're simply blowing hot air to no purpose. It is you that is spouting the codswallop. I know you like to believe that you are the oracle of all wisdom when it comes to these matters but you are not.

Relating to crimes carried out by 9 and 10 year olds, your conclusions are based on only three cases over a span of 40 years. Cases where their up-bringing has been detailed by the press. Many of the reports on the cases you gave earlier are merely 'opinion' by so called experts and not hard fact. You can not substantiate your claim any more than I can because I can not name name's here. When you support your claims with some-thing a little more substantial than the three highly documented cases over a span of 40 years, we may be blown away by your Insight but until then, you have offered nothing but your own opinion on three cases which is not a true representation of child violence throughout the Country and Indeed, abroad.

[kazalala]

oscar;1285572 wrote: So explain yourself. Why critise Andy's post?

YouTube - The Stranglers - Get a Grip On Yourself

Play this when you get bored.


:yh_rotflwhy should he explain himself to you? Andy criticised all of our posts and we aint having a hissy fit:rolleyes: I think Andy is quite capable of handling himself if he feels the need:)

[spot]

oscar;1285608 wrote: It is you that is spouting the codswallop. I know you like to believe that you are the oracle of all wisdom when it comes to these matters but you are not.

Relating to crimes carried out by 9 and 10 year olds, your conclusions are based on only three cases over a span of 40 years. Cases where their up-bringing has been detailed by the press. Many of the reports on the cases you gave earlier are merely 'opinion' by so called experts and not hard fact. You can not substantiate your claim any more than I can because I can not name name's here. When you support your claims with some-thing a little more substantial than the three highly documented cases over a span of 40 years, we may be blown away by your Insight but until then, you have offered nothing but your own opinion on three cases which is not a true representation of child violence throughout the Country and Indeed, abroad.


The reason I've only put three instances of children under twelve killing or torturing other children forward is that they're extremely rare. In each case I've suggested that their home life was the cause of their behaviour, not any innate "evil". Your "I can because I can not name name's here" is a pointless cop-out - if you can't name names for some reason then at least you can cite any counter-examples, it's simply impossible that any instance of this category of event remains completely unreported even if (as seems equally impossible) they aren't "cases where their up-bringing has been detailed by the press".

I can offer, since you ask for more instances, a school shooting of a six year old by a six year old in the USA from 2000:The boy's father Dedric Owens is in jail for violating parole after serving time for possession of cocaine "with intent to deliver." The boy and his eight-year-old brother had been living with their mother Tamarla until recently, when she was evicted. The two boys then moved into a crack house, where guns were traded for drugs, with their uncle and the 19-year-old man who left the murder weapon, evidently loaded, under some blankets. A search of the house produced a loaded pump-action shotgun and a rock of crack cocaine. The boy and his brother had been sharing a single sofa as a bed.

Outside the white clapboard house, dented hubcaps and other discarded auto parts lay strewn among candy wrappers, soda bottles and wires. Broken windows were covered with a blue tarp. A light so dim it might have been a continuation of the dark showed from inside. Of the boy, Genesee County Sheriff Robert Pickerell said, "He was basically living in hell."

The Killing Of Kayla - TIME



This one - an eleven year old girl knifing a twelve year old at school - is poorly covered anywhere and seems to be related in the press to violent video games. Make of it what you will. I could only find this text in Google's cache, the original URL no longer exists.2008-05-30 SASEBO, Nagasaki -- Local authorities announced Thursday that they will lift the restrictions of freedom on a teenage girl who stabbed her classmate to death. The Nagasaki prefectural center in Sasebo for the support of children, women and the disabled said it will decide on any further treatment of the girl, who is now 15, after her restrictions are lifted. The girl has been in the custody of a children's self-support facility in Sakura, Tochigi Prefecture.

You might like to read markgribben.com What Childhood is Meant to be which, though it relates to a thirteen year old, sounds like someone who could potentially have been capable at an earlier age.

One of the shooters in one of the US High School massacres was eleven, doesn't seem even slightly rehabilitated and was nevertheless released when he reached twenty one. We don't do things like that in England - the releasing without parole consideration bit. Or the school massacre bit either, come to that. Arkansas Times discusses the matter. I do note that the elder of the killers was older than the age range we're considering but I'm trying to bring in all the contenders I can find.

Nomadic View: Oct 25, 2009 is worth reading, as far as the ease of pushing eight year olds into false confessions is concerned. Then you can read Lesser plea ends boy's St. Johns murder case and wonder what's not being said.

I agreed with you as far as older children are concerned. I agreed with all of your earlier list of possibilities - gang culture, peer pressure, an act to seek attention, drink and pills - in the case of teenage yobs. As far as 10-11 year olds killing or torturing other children, I seriously don't think you've anything to base your opinion on other than uninformed bias.

[Oscar Namechange]

kazalala;1285637 wrote: :yh_rotflwhy should he explain himself to you? Andy criticised all of our posts and we aint having a hissy fit:rolleyes: I think Andy is quite capable of handling himself if he feels the need:) Ahso seems to have a habit of critising a post without any Imformation as to why he disagree's with It. It Is Impossible to debate and see his point of view when he solely resorts to Insults with no debate.

Yes, Andy does not need me to defend him. :wah:

BTW... Great Avatar of Shiela.

And excuse me Mrs... I do not have Hissy fits. Strops, yes, but not hissy fits. I think you'll find that Southerners have strops and get the hump. Hissy fits are usually confined to the North of England with splatterings Into North Wales.

[kazalala]

oscar;1285648 wrote: Ahso seems to have a habit of critising a post without any Imformation as to why he disagree's with It. It Is Impossible to debate and see his point of view when he solely resorts to Insults with no debate.

Yes, Andy does not need me to defend him. :wah:

BTW... Great Avatar of Shiela.

And excuse me Mrs... I do not have Hissy fits. Strops, yes, but not hissy fits. I think you'll find that Southerners have strops and get the hump. Hissy fits are usually confined to the North of England with splatterings Into North Wales.


OK , dont debate with him thenyou are being drawn in to the same behavior.

Typical Staffy sitting position that is:wah:

[Ahso!]

Tell me, Oscar, is the world made up of "people like me" and people like you?

[Oscar Namechange]

Ahso!;1285654 wrote: Tell me, Oscar, is the world made up of "people like me" and people like you?


What has that got to do with the price of fresh Haddock in the Market?

[Ahso!]

oscar;1285657 wrote: What has that got to do with the price of fresh Haddock in the Market?My point exactly, but they are your words. Sounds pretty absurd, doesn't it? Thats why I have no need to engage you. What you say is emotional and nonsensical.

[Oscar Namechange]

Ahso!;1285658 wrote: My point exactly, but they are your words. Sounds pretty absurd, doesn't it? Thats why I have no need to engage you. What you say is emotional and nonsensical. The Expession 'What has that got to do with the price of fresh Haddock in the market' means that you are offering nothing to the thread or debate. You do not raise questions, you simply quote, agree, quote, dis-agree. That Is a cop out for lack of knowledge or research Into a subject. As far as Imformation goes In threads, you give none, yet you have the audacity to critisize other posts and members. From what I have seen of your posts, You do not even seem to have an opinion. You merely tag on the coat tails of others.

[Ahso!]

oscar;1285673 wrote: The Expession 'What has that got to do with the price of fresh Haddock in the market' means that you are offering nothing to the thread or debate. You do not raise questions, you simply quote, agree, quote, dis-agree. That Is a cop out for lack of knowledge or research Into a subject. As far as Imformation goes In threads, you give none, yet you have the audacity to critisize other posts and members. From what I have seen of your posts, You do not even seem to have an opinion. You merely tag on the coat tails of others.Stop running away from your words, Oscar, or stop and think before you post. I'm done with you in this thread. Good Luck!