Lockerbie bomber released.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:17 am

He's going to peg out pretty soon, by the look.

A surprisingly lightweight article from "The Daily Telegraph":

Lockerbie bomber released and to return to Libya a free man - Telegraph

And one with more content, from Aljazeera:

Al Jazeera English - Europe - Scotland orders Lockerbie release

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:28 am

This is disgusting! Eight years is not enough to pay for what he did. :-5

Is there some hidden agenda here or something we don't know about because this is an appalling decision to make on 'compassionate' grounds.

What about the compassion, or lack of, that he showed to his victims?

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:28 am

Just wrong I'm sure the families of the passengers he blew to bits would have wanted time with their loved one.

Sorry he should no be allowed to walk out of prison a free man. Compassion sorry none here. Momar Kadafi could have sent his family to Scotland to spend time with him behind bars till he died.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:35 am

I know its nuts isnâ€™t it? Compassionate time off because he had cancer, well too feckâ€™n bad for him, he has also had many more years to his life that those he killed. They should just let him die in pain in his cell and leave it to that.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:39 am

A very wrong decision to release him.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:45 am

As I write this, he ain't quite home just yet.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:14 am

You show compassion to someone regardless of what they have done. I would have thought those of a Christian disposition would have applauded the move or is mercy and compassion deleted from the lexicon nowadays and only an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth left. There has always been considerable doubt over his guilt anyway. The release is consistent with Scottish judicial policy and the man will be dead soon so no doubt he will be rotting in hell soon. .

Convicted IRA terrorists were released as part of the peace agreement. I didn't see any american secretaries of state calling for them to be kept in jail till they died or even suggesting they hand over the ones hiding in america. Nothing like being inconsistent is there?

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:55 am

The decision was made because Scottish law required that "justice be served, but mercy be shown".

Thats just how the Scots are.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:07 am

I understand but why not have his family come to be with him in his final days in prison till he passes away. Why does he have to a free man to go to his country and die. They people on the plane didn't get to die in the country of their choice. Justice and mercy could have been served just and well with him staying in prison. JMO

[QUOTE]"justice be served, but mercy be shown"[/QUOTE]

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:24 am

gmc;1232516 wrote: You show compassion to someone regardless of what they have done. I would have thought those of a Christian disposition would have applauded the move or is mercy and compassion deleted from the lexicon nowadays and only an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth left. There has always been considerable doubt over his guilt anyway. The release is consistent with Scottish judicial policy and the man will be dead soon so no doubt he will be rotting in hell soon. .

Convicted IRA terrorists were released as part of the peace agreement. I didn't see any american secretaries of state calling for them to be kept in jail till they died or even suggesting they hand over the ones hiding in america. Nothing like being inconsistent is there?

Then why didn't you guys release him 8 years ago with a handshake and a "Go and sin no more"?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:36 am

hoppy;1232556 wrote: Then why didn't you guys release him 8 years ago with a handshake and a "Go and sin no more"?

He wasn't about to kick the bleedin' bucket then, was he.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:53 am

Bill Sikes;1232561 wrote: He wasn't about to kick the bleedin' bucket then, was he.

Do Scots release all prisoners who get terminally ill?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:34 am

hoppy;1232570 wrote: Do Scots release all prisoners who get terminally ill?

Any prisoner can apply for release on compassionate grounds and so long as the minister is satisfied he grounds are sufficient they can be released. Being dead in the next few months is one of the reasons it may be considered.

If you want to read the ministers statement here it is.

Lockerbie bomber released: Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill's statement in full - Telegraph

Scotland will forever remember the crime that has been perpetrated against our people and those from many other lands. The pain and suffering will remain forever. Some hurt can never heal. Some scars can never fade.

"Those who have been bereaved cannot be expected to forget, let alone forgive. Their pain runs deep and the wounds remain.

"However, Mr Al Megrahi now faces a sentence imposed by a higher power. It is one that no court, in any jurisdiction, in any land, could revoke or overrule. It is terminal, final and irrevocable. He is going to die.

"In Scotland, we are a people who pride ourselves on our humanity.

"It is viewed as a defining characteristic of Scotland and the Scottish people.

"The perpetration of an atrocity and outrage cannot and should not be a basis for losing sight of who we are, the values we seek to uphold, and the faith and beliefs by which we seek to live.

"Mr Al Megrahi did not show his victims any comfort or compassion. They were not allowed to return to the bosom of their families to see out their lives, let alone their dying days. No compassion was shown by him to them.

"But that alone is not a reason for us to deny compassion to him and his family in his final days.

Just for once I'm quite pleased with the SNP. I suspect a labour minister would have done what he was told by Westminster. As a scot I think taking the moral high ground and keeping to it regardless of what others may think is a better way to go than pander to those who are more powerful and think because of that they should be obeyed. Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the bombers or the petty eye for an eye vindictiveness of the christian right in America? There would, I think, have been outrage if he was perceived to have caved in to American pressure to keep him in jail and it's Scotland the SNP want to win elections in.

If you think mercy and compassion should only be extended to those seen as deserving I think you misunderstand what the words mean. I'm an atheist I shouldn't have to explain it to you.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:42 am

I wonder if the families of the Scots that were killed feel the same "compassion"?

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:04 am

CARLA;1232544 wrote: I understand but why not have his family come to be with him in his final days in prison till he passes away. Why does he have to a free man to go to his country and die. They people on the plane didn't get to die in the country of their choice. Justice and mercy could have been served just and well with him staying in prison. JMO

If I'm correct Carla, the Libyan goverment have paid for his family to live near to the prison he was being held in....they have also paid all his legal fees.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:10 pm

hoppy;1232597 wrote: I wonder if the families of the Scots that were killed feel the same "compassion"?

some will some won't. We tend not to go for the eye for an eye approach to things. There was always doubt about his conviction- It seems to be mainly the american relatives that seem to want to get someone to pay the price whether it was really him or not. There has always been considerable doubt as to his guilt and that he was the only one involved.

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:20 pm

Let him go home. He fell under the Scotts legal jurisdiction and as such is governed by their rules. The US has executed foreign nationals and not even acknowledged the countries request for compassion. The families of those who were killed will just have to be satisfied with Scotlandâ€™s law and how it works. As a side note, one with pancreatic cancer donâ€™t usually have long to live anyway. A side thought, he will â€˜tasteâ€™ freedom for a short time and realize what he has missed.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:41 pm

Good for the Scots.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:03 pm

I could never feel compassion for a terrorist who kills 260 people. He doesn't deserve any compassion. And, he doesn't deserve the hero's welcome upon return to his home.

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:04 pm

Kathy Ellen;1232696 wrote: I could never feel compassion for a terrorist who kills 260 people. He doesn't deserve any compassion. And, he doesn't deserve the hero's welcome upon return to his home.

Wanna bet there will be a parade.....at least in his home town.......

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:07 pm

cigar898;1232698 wrote: Wanna bet there will be a parade.....at least in his home town.......

There was...just saw it on the news....cheering, shaking hands, smiles.....as he walked off the plane...he is a hero:(

Post by **spot** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:11 pm

That twenty minute press conference quoted by Bill Sikes and gmc is one of the finest pieces of argument I've read in years. It's most easily read in full at The Times

The reason for the release says it was completely unconnected with the prisoner's abandonment of his appeal. I'm not sure I find that altogether believable. Either the appeal or a full independent enquiry would have dragged a lot more evidence out from under assorted stones. The fact that neither will now be held will disappoint quite a few of the families who lost people as a result of the bombing.

Congratulations to Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, for his reasoning though. "In Scotland, we are a people who pride ourselves on our humanity. It is viewed as a defining characteristic of Scotland and the Scottish people. The perpetration of an atrocity and outrage cannot and should not be a basis for losing sight of who we are, the values we seek to uphold, and the faith and beliefs by which we seek to live". It's not often I've been so favourably impressed by a political statement.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:24 pm

I do respect the decisions of the Scottish government and know they would not make this decision lightly, but also feel such compassion for the families left behind. I still have nightmares about tragedies like this that happened in the UK, African, and USA terroristic bombings:mad:

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:40 pm

gmc;1232595 wrote:

Just for once I'm quite pleased with the SNP.

I knew you'd come round :sneaky:

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:43 pm

gmc;1232595 wrote:

If you think mercy and compassion should only be extended to those seen as deserving I think you misunderstand what the words mean.

:yh_clap

Post by **spot** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:48 pm

Kathy Ellen;1232709 wrote: I still have nightmares about tragedies like this that happened in the UK, African, and USA terroristic bombings:mad:

The shame of Americans is the way they selectively close their eyes to outrages like Iran Air Flight 655 when discussing these things. It's not an irrelevant example either. When you get a President capable of saying "I will never apologize for the United States of America" you really ought to know the world's got a problem.

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:51 pm

spot;1232703 wrote: ....Either the appeal or a full independent enquiry would have dragged a lot more evidence out from under assorted stones. The fact that neither will now be held will disappoint quite a few of the families who lost people as a result of the bombing.

That I feel, is the most unfortunate aspect of the matter. There are many unanswered questions surrounding flight 103. Here are a few:-

1. Where was the bomb put on board?

2. Why was the break-in to the PanAm luggage area at Heathrow covered up?

3. Who benefits?

4. What was the role of Achmed Ghibril?

5. Why did the witness who identified al-Megrahi (as a buyer of clothing) paid millions by the US government?

6. What role was played by the USS Vincennes?

These and all the other questions will not now be answered.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:57 pm

gmc;1232658 wrote: some will some won't. We tend not to go for the eye for an eye approach to things. There was always doubt about his conviction- It seems to be mainly the american relatives that seem to want to get someone to pay the price whether it was really him or not. There has always been considerable doubt as to his guilt and that he was the only one involved.

I wondered how long it would take before it all started coming back on Americans.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:57 pm

Spot,

Why don't you also consider the shames of your own government as we think about past injustices of all of our governments throughout history.

Post by **spot** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:08 pm

Kathy Ellen;1232746 wrote: Spot,

Why don't you also consider the shames of your own government as we think about past injustices of all of our governments throughout history.

Because, as I wrote, it's not an irrelevant example - it's an airliner, it's unjustifiable and it's the same year. If you want to bring in your own examples by all means do. The only reason I posted was the deliberate patriotic selectivity of "I still have nightmares about tragedies like this that happened in the UK, African, and USA terroristic bombings". A bit less selectivity might oil the path to peaceable coexistence on this planet but instead the US hands out gallantry medals, of all things, to incompetents or worse who destroy civil airliners. It all seems to depend on who gives the order to kill.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:24 pm

Kathy Ellen;1232746 wrote: Spot,

Why don't you also consider the shames of your own government as we think about past injustices of all of our governments throughout history.

Spot gets off on the blame game. He's lured in like a kid to a candy bar. He can't help himself.:yh_rotfl

dubs · Post by **dubs** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:28 pm

hoppy;1232754 wrote: Spot gets off on the blame game. He's lured in like a kid to a candy bar. He can't help himself.:yh_rotfl

That's quite funny, cos you blame Obama for your sh!t stinkin':wah::wah:

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:32 pm

dubs;1232757 wrote: That's quite funny, cos you blame Obama for your sh!t stinkin':wah::wah:

Well, looky the mouth on dubs. Way to go dubs. Ya oughta get work as a stand-up comedian dubs. Only thing is, if you were paid a dollar a joke, I don't think you could live on 2 or 3 dollars a month.

And, obama STILL blames Bush.

dubs · Post by **dubs** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:09 pm

hoppy;1232785 wrote: Well, looky the mouth on dubs. Way to go dubs. Ya oughta get work as a stand-up comedian dubs. Only thing is, if you were paid a dollar a joke, I don't think you could live on 2 or 3 dollars a month.

And, obama STILL blames Bush.

Yeah, if I want to know about bad jokes, you'd be the first one I'd come to!

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:34 pm

dubs;1232804 wrote: Yeah, if I want to know about bad jokes, you'd be the first one I'd come to!

Old. Not too funny. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being real ROFLMAO funny, I'd give it a 2.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:40 am

hoppy;1232744 wrote: I wondered how long it would take before it all started coming back on Americans.

It's a bit hard not to mention the americans in this. You're an american and you asked the question, many of the victims were american and it's the americans that are making the most noise about this decision and that are the most vitriolic inn their condemnation of it. My statement was factual

It seems to be mainly the american relatives that seem to want to get someone to pay the price whether it was really him or not

The british relatives of the victims seem to have had more doubts about his guilt or otherwise but in any case it is the american relatives that are a lot more vocal in their criticism of the Scottish government. If you have knowledge to contradict that by all means do post it. I'm fed up with this constant assumption that everything is somehow blindly anti american without there being a good reason or actually taking such posts in context-it feels like if you post you don't eat mcdonalds hamburgers someone will accuse you of being anti-american.

I object to the ignorant anti-scottish media coverage in america. The decision was made in the context of scots law and practice to have caved in to the demands of another country and disregard our own laws would have been despicable. The guy will be dead soon, why should we pay for his palliative care for the next few months?

There's a certain irony, which I am sure completely escapes you, in a so called christian country being unable to understand why you would show compassion to someone who in turn didn't show any to his victims. Read the ministers statement and tell me which bits you don't understand and I will endeavour to try and make things clearer to you.

As to the ridiculous suggestion that it sends a signal that we don't take terrorism seriously just ask the guy that tried to blow up glasgow airport what he thinks.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:53 am

As to the ridiculous suggestion that it sends a signal that we don't take terrorism seriously just ask the guy that tried to blow up glasgow airport what he thinks.

Was he shown compassion?

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:23 am

hoppy;1232886 wrote: As to the ridiculous suggestion that it sends a signal that we don't take terrorism seriously just ask the guy that tried to blow up glasgow airport what he thinks.

Was he shown compassion?
Of course he was hoppy, the one who eventually died was taken straight to hospital with an extraordinary degree of burns to his body and given the best medical care the country can provide for several weeks. The other was tried on the evidence, allowed to say his mind as regards motive and provocation and is currently spending 32 years at Her Majesty's pleasure. As for the magnificent intervention of John Smeaton in putting an end to the outrage with a single kick to the testicles, nobody in Scotland would regard that as anything other than compassionate restraint. Part of the reason he's a national hero is that he immediately stopped after doing what was needed.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:37 am

Wow. What a country. Why would anyone want to leave?

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:28 am

spot;1232733 wrote: The shame of Americans is the way they selectively close their eyes to outrages like Iran Air Flight 655 when discussing these things. It's not an irrelevant example either. When you get a President capable of saying "I will never apologize for the United States of America" you really ought to know the world's got a problem.

Hmmmmmm......MISTAKENLY identifed it as an attacking aircraft as opposed to knowingly help blow up a civilian airliner......big difference......also, we apologized..has he ever apologized?

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:39 am

cigar898;1232952 wrote: Hmmmmmm......MISTAKENLY identifed it as an attacking aircraft as opposed to knowingly help blow up a civilian airliner......big difference......also, we apologized..has he ever apologized?

By all means call it mistaken if that helps salve whatever conscience America has about incidents like that, it's not the word I'd use. The US "apology" consisted of around $150 million in compensation, Libya coughed up around $700 million to Pan Am and the families in order to get US sanctions lifted, either or both of those might be called an apology.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:44 am

cigar898;1232952 wrote: Hmmmmmm......MISTAKENLY identifed it as an attacking aircraft as opposed to knowingly help blow up a civilian airliner......big difference......also, we apologized..has he ever apologized?

No- he still insists he was innocent.

Bit off topic but surely even yourself and hoppy would agree that giving the crew of the Vincennes medals for having actively participated in ground or surface combat, and the captain the Legion of Merit for MISTAKENLY shooting down an airliner was ever so slightly insensitive. How would the american public have reacted if the positions had been reversed and the iranians that MISTAKENLY shot down an american liner were given medals.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:52 am

Bump - in the hope of seeing a response to GMC's question.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:00 am

buttercup;1233253 wrote: Bump - in the hope of seeing a response to GMC's question.

50p says you won't see one.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:56 am

Anyway, hoppy, when push comes to shove you'll notice the brits are usually there with you. That wouldn't be the case if we hated you.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:11 am

Clodhopper;1233280 wrote: Anyway, hoppy, when push comes to shove you'll notice the brits are usually there with you. That wouldn't be the case if we hated you.

Mind you they are pretty quick to throw their toys out their pram when we don't just do what they expect us to aren't they. Apparently they are now going to boycott scottish goods and stop visiting. I don't know how this will play out at the next election in terms of how it will effect SNP support. be interesting to see. Personally I'm ambivalent about independence but the more the likes of the daily mail and the labour party tell me we wouldn't cope and it would be disaster the more inclined I am to vote for them.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:38 am

Well, what's done is done. No sense in dwelling on the past now. It only makes painful memories even more so.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:19 pm

gmc;1233257 wrote: 50p says you won't see one.:yh_rotfl

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:11 pm

Don't suppose you could send me up a Mortons well fired roll instead of the 50p in the event of no reply?

:-4

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:50 am

buttercup;1233680 wrote: Don't suppose you could send me up a Mortons well fired roll instead of the 50p in the event of no reply?

:-4

No I'm betting 50p we won't see one. Admittedly it was a safe bet.

Today in (Scottish) parliament looks interesting, labour are a set of shits that still can't believe they lost the last election. I'm sure they are convinced it was fixed in some way they haven't thought of using. This could be quite interesting if they force vote of no confidence it would mean a new election. Who do you reckon would win?