baby faced edlington boys appear in court the AA GRUMPY COLUMN

[pantoandy]

hello yes im back online once again to rant another day

i cannot believe this story that 2 children can attempt murder which has all the chilling echos of jamie bulger

THEY smiled, they yawned, they even pulled faces at reporters.

One grinned broadly as a mobile phone rang in the hushed court, clearly amused as he looked around for the culprit

But neither of the baby-faced brothers, aged just ten and 11, showed a flicker of fear To them, it seemed a game.

But the charges they faced — and the harrowing details that emerged yesterday showed it was anything but.

They were accused of the attempted murder, shocking torture and horrific sexual abuse of two boys aged nine and 11 in Doncaster, in a case that shocked Britain.

They were also said to have stolen a mobile phone from the younger lad and £5 from the elder. The two brown-haired brothers cannot be identified on account of their age.

The 11-year-old walked into Doncaster Youth Court’s No1 courtroom wearing a red England soccer shirt and looking like a typical footie-mad youngster.

He glanced around as he was led into the wood and perspex dock, handcuffed to a female guard. His younger brother, six inches shorter but with strikingly similar features, was close behind.

The pair stood as Judge Jonathan Bennett disclosed their names to the court.

Asked to confirm their dates of birth and whether they understood the charges, they called out “Yes sir” and shot their hands into the air like schoolkids in class.

When they finally sat down, they were barely tall enough to peer out of the dock. The boys’ mother, who has other children, was NOT at the hearing.

The 36-year-old divorcee stayed at her council semi in South Yorkshire. The house bears an astonishing sign warning: Beware Of The Kids.

The Sun told yesterday how she yelled “It’s got nowt to do with me” through the letter box when asked about the case.

We also revealed her two accused sons have been living with foster parents after she told social services she could no longer cope with them

They are also thought to have spent time with their dad.

Last night police and social workers took the mum and her family to a secret location and boarded up her home amid fears for her safety.

The boys’ foster parents WERE in court — and the grave nature of the allegations was etched on their fraught faces.

The prosecution outlined details of how the pair allegedly tortured and battered the other lads — in a grim echo of the 1993 James Bulger case.

They were held by cops on Saturday after being discovered in allotments a few hundred yards from where the nine-year-old was found wandering dazed and covered in blood in Edlington, Doncaster.

The 11-year-old, the younger victim’s uncle, was found semi-conscious 90 minutes later with “life threatening head injuries”. He was caked in blood and mud in a swampy ravine 500 yards from a council estate.

The victims were allegedly burned with cigarettes, beaten with bricks and sticks, and forced to engage in degrading sexual acts.

Judge Jonathan Bennett remanded both accused boys into secure local authority care before a second hearing next Tuesday. They were handcuffed before being driven off with a green blanket covering the 11-year-old and a black one over the ten-year-old.

The 11-year-old victim, who had to be put on a life support machine, was last night out of immediate danger. He was said to be “stable and improving” in Sheffield Children’s Hospital.

His first words to his parents when he regained consciousness were: “I’m thirsty, could I have a drink please?”

He said he was feeling “a bit better” and was not in too much pain, which eased fears he had suffered brain damage. His dad said: “We are hoping our son will continue to recover from his ordeal.”

AAG

i wish the two children well recovering in hospital and as for the two accused boys

what entered their heads to commit such an appaling crime as this.

i do not know what powers a youth court has but surely a crime such as this must be heard in the crown court as they face 4 charges each one being attempted murder when they appear again next week before the court.

that so called thing of a mother who said its nowt to do with me has been moved to a safe house if should never dare to show her face in edlington or doncaster will get her come uppance

she is a disgrace as a mother as to the two boys who think its a game i hope the eventual sentence is one of life or her majestys pleasure which should see these two tearaways locked up for a good many years.

although in the same case as thompson and venables they may avoid jail time by keeping them in care untill they are 18 and give them both a new i.d and a bolthole to hide in.

but this wont help them already some one in edlington will have swore revenge and its only a matter of time before like venables and thompson the lynch mob are only one step behind and they will spend the rest of their lives wondering who,s at the door or who,s is that car ?

the reality of their crimes hasnt hit them yet when they are finally sentenced

it will from the carehome to the grave as in the film buster keep on running.

AAG

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 366418.ece

[abbey]

Link?????

[pantoandy]

sorry abbs just a minute

[Oscar Namechange]

I posted this a couple of days ago Andy under the thread title 'what makes children do this?'

I saw this article today in the papers but what i find alarming is that the two attacked another child a week earlier and it was typical police apathy.

We really have to kick this nanny state into touch so little bastards like this go to prison, no privilages and have nothing but education and hard labour for the rest of their lives.

Already the child physcologists are out with the excuses for them blaming dis-functional parents.... well lets throw them in prison as well for inflicting this scum onto our streets and our lives.

I truely give up with these kinds of kids. They are not kids, they are murdering (or attempted) scum.

[pantoandy]

abbey;1171866 wrote: Link?????


links in my apolgies once again :-4:-4:-4:-4:-4:-4:-4

[abbey]

pantoandy;1171869 wrote: links in my apolgies once again :-4:-4:-4:-4:-4:-4:-4 Thankyou. :-6

[pantoandy]

oscar;1171868 wrote: I posted this a couple of days ago Andy under the thread title 'what makes children do this?'

I saw this article today in the papers but what i find alarming is that the two attacked another child a week earlier and it was typical police apathy.

We really have to kick this nanny state into touch so little bastards like this go to prison, no privilages and have nothing but education and hard labour for the rest of their lives.

Already the child physcologists are out with the excuses for them blaming dis-functional parents.... well lets throw them in prison as well for inflicting this scum onto our streets and our lives.

I truely give up with these kinds of kids. They are not kids, they are murdering (or attempted) scum.


excuse me while i make a cup of sweet tea to get over the shock

oscar actaully agreeing with a posting

[abbey]

:wah:

[Oscar Namechange]

pantoandy;1171872 wrote: excuse me while i make a cup of sweet tea to get over the shock

oscar actaully agreeing with a posting
Don't worry, It's not habitual :wah:

[Bill Sikes]

oscar;1171868 wrote: I saw this article today in the papers but what i find alarming is that the two attacked another child a week earlier and it was typical police apathy.


This is an interesting statement. Should police procedure have been flawed, then should these two (statement deleted) be "let off"?

[Oscar Namechange]

Bill Sikes;1171890 wrote: This is an interesting statement. Should police procedure have been flawed, then should these two (statement deleted) be "let off"? What i meant Bill was that the tragedy of the two little boys now in hospital with appalling injuries, could have been avoided had the police arrested the teo attackers when they attacked the week before on another child. It was avoidable.

[Bill Sikes]

oscar;1171892 wrote: What i meant Bill was that the tragedy (snip) could have been avoided had the police arrested the teo attackers when they attacked the week before on another child. It was avoidable.


Could they have arrested them, though? I do not know the facts about happenings then. Had they arrested them, then would the two have been at large the day after? These observations are quite beside my original point, though, of course.

[along-for-the-ride]

It is such a tragedy and truly horrific that a true monster can be disguised in a child's body.

[Peter Lake]

There is two ways of looking at the boys behaviour this morning in court. The do-gooder's will claim that their laughing and joking is a sign that they do not understand the severity of their crimes and should be treated kindly. The rest of us see it as a typical sign of how low this country has sinked to depravity without a care for anything or anyone else.

I'm convinced that children age quicker than they did 20 years ago. Inadequete parents allow them free reign to watch violent games and flms with no idea of the consequences. Children are allowed to roam the streets in ways they never did 20 years ago.

We have to get this country back to basics where excuses are no longer made and children are held accountable for their actions. First the children and then the parents. If parents want to let their violent dangerous offspring roam the streets at the risk of safety to every decent child, then they face the crimes their children have commited also.

They spawned it, they bred it, they failed it, they allowed it to harm others so now they can pay for it.

[Oscar Namechange]

Bill Sikes;1171895 wrote: Could they have arrested them, though? I do not know the facts about happenings then. Had they arrested them, then would the two have been at large the day after? These observations are quite beside my original point, though, of course. I see what your getting at here Bill. If the kids end up with a smart enough lawyer, and police proceedure has indeed been severley breached, there is a likely hood that it could be thrown out of court. At the end of the day, it would be down to the judge if he/she were to take into account the breaches. With a jury, I'm not sure. If the kids deny it and are tried by jury then i will have to look into it more.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I thought this an interesting read . Funny how society has gone backwards in some places.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/faculty/2005workshops/ward.pdf

[Oscar Namechange]

fuzzywuzzy;1172244 wrote: I thought this an interesting read . Funny how society has gone backwards in some places.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/faculty/2005workshops/ward.pdf Thanks Fuzzy and very interesting.

I have made excuses for children like this in the past and laid the blame solely at the feet of the parents. My attitude has changed simply because we are seeing more and more of this in this country. I don't care any more who is to blame. The authorities can not allow kids like this to be mixing with decent children and putting their safety and lives at risk. They are a damn menace to everything and everyone around them. Maybe with re-habilitation they can come out in time as decent human beings but i don't care any more. This country is full of these kids and i'm sick of them. Bang them up and leave them to rot.

[Rapunzel]

Bill Sikes;1171890 wrote: This is an interesting statement. Should police procedure have been flawed, then should these two (statement deleted) be "let off"?


Absolutely not! Like Thompson and Venables they should be locked up until they're 18 at least (although personally I think 18 is too young! They're still thoughtless kids at 18. I think they should be locked up until they're at least 30 and I think Thompson and Venables should also have been locked up until AT LEAST that age too!)

[Rapunzel]

along-for-the-ride;1171930 wrote: It is such a tragedy and truly horrific that a true monster can be disguised in a child's body.


An interesting point. I wonder what Hitler was like as a child? Was he 'normal' or was like this?

[Rapunzel]

oscar;1172259 wrote: Thanks Fuzzy and very interesting.

I have made excuses for children like this in the past and laid the blame solely at the feet of the parents. My attitude has changed simply because we are seeing more and more of this in this country. I don't care any more who is to blame. The authorities can not allow kids like this to be mixing with decent children and putting their safety and lives at risk. They are a damn menace to everything and everyone around them. Maybe with re-habilitation they can come out in time as decent human beings but i don't care any more. This country is full of these kids and i'm sick of them. Bang them up and leave them to rot.


You're so right. So many kids ARE like this today. Why do you think that is? Can we lay the blame at the door of people who have too many kids AND who can't cope with them? Or parents who work and have no time for their kids (unlike 60 years ago when mothers were always(?) homemakers and took care of their kids and knew where they were? I don't think either of those are the reason and am stumped as to why so MANY kids are now so unruly and rude and lacking in respect for anyone or anything. Where do you think the blame can be laid for this don't care nonchalent attitude? (Just curious).

[gmc]

It is a fact that if children are abused from an early age or not socialised enough they end up not being able to relate to people-they become sociopaths. Yet you still get those whose first knee jerk reaction is that they must be monsters and it's a sign that society is failing and that we need to go back to basics and beat our children unmercifully. There have always been gangs of teenagers running around-go back to roman times and you find articles complaining abiout the very same phenomenon. I was a latchkey kid. i remember readig about how i was going to be a troublemaker because-god forbid-my single parent mother went out to work and I looked after myself when I came home from school. It was simplistic nonsense then and it still is now.

We have a major problem in our cities as we built massive housing estates with no shops or facilities to cater for the numbers of children that were going to be there. Sports facilities are all very well but if you have no money you can't go to them. we build over playing fields and ban them from playing on any grassy area (how often have you see no ball game signs) and wonder why kids just hang around getting in to mischief. Even going to the park with their mates is fraught with the risk of adults phoning up the police worried about teenage gangs hyped up by non-stop reports in the press about gangs of feral children.

This kind of thing has gone on since time immemorial it such a shocking example that it hits the headlines. I'm not suggesting these kids should be left on the streets but do you really want to go back to the days of draconian punishments.

posted by oscar

I have made excuses for children like this in the past and laid the blame solely at the feet of the parents. My attitude has changed simply because we are seeing more and more of this in this country. I don't care any more who is to blame. The authorities can not allow kids like this to be mixing with decent children and putting their safety and lives at risk. They are a damn menace to everything and everyone around them. Maybe with re-habilitation they can come out in time as decent human beings but i don't care any more. This country is full of these kids and i'm sick of them. Bang them up and leave them to rot.


You can't on the one hand complain about the police overstepping their authority in some posts and then call for them to be able to lock up people without trial and throw away the key. (unless of course you are in the BNP and such inconsistencies of logic don't bother you)

Johann Hari: The child who kills is the child who never had a chance - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent

We now know from brain scans that if you have really poor quality care in childhood, your pre-frontal lobes don't develop properly. Those are the parts of the brain that think rationally, empathise, and exercise self-control. It is physically impossible for these children to calm down and think a situation through. Their brains haven't developed that way."

So to treat them like morally responsible mini-adults who just made a bad decision – as the British courts do today – doesn't make sense. It is a neurological fiction.

When this impaired brain chemistry combines with violent abuse and rape, the children can become time-bombs. "They have been taught to see the world through one template: you're a victim, or you're an abuser. That's how they think human relationships work," Batmanghelidjh puts it. "At first, they are abused, and at some point they become determined to be a perpetrator, because then at least they have power and control. If you think those are your only two options in life, it seems preferable."


When accusations like this bleed into the news, we need to stand at the front of the looming lynch mob and say: Stop. Think. In 1861, a leader in The Times commented on the trial of two eight-year-old boys in Stockport who had tortured and killed a toddler. It said: "Children of that age cannot be held legally accountable in the same way as adults. It is absurd and monstrous that these two children have been treated like murderers." Isn't it time we progressed to 1862?


We also used to pretend child abuse didn't happen-it's not that there are more cases happening it is that now children have some hope of being believed when they speak out. So now society is declining because more cases get reported and acted on. It used to be acceptable to beat up your wife as well now at least many would call it unacceptable and give support to a runaway wife in such circumstances instead of turning our backs on someone who had broken up the family by deserting her husband.

posted by peter lake

There is two ways of looking at the boys behaviour this morning in court. The do-gooder's will claim that their laughing and joking is a sign that they do not understand the severity of their crimes and should be treated kindly. The rest of us see it as a typical sign of how low this country has sinked to depravity without a care for anything or anyone else.

I'm convinced that children age quicker than they did 20 years ago. Inadequete parents allow them free reign to watch violent games and flms with no idea of the consequences. Children are allowed to roam the streets in ways they never did 20 years ago.

We have to get this country back to basics where excuses are no longer made and children are held accountable for their actions. First the children and then the parents. If parents want to let their violent dangerous offspring roam the streets at the risk of safety to every decent child, then they face the crimes their children have commited also.

They spawned it, they bred it, they failed it, they allowed it to harm others so now they can pay for it.


Bollocks bollocks poppycock and tosh!!

[pantoandy]

many thanks for the replies will keep you informed you,d miss my rants really would you eh eh ??

the grumps

[gmc]

pantoandy;1172912 wrote: many thanks for the replies will keep you informed you,d miss my rants really would you eh eh ??

the grumps


They're good for provoking a good barney. It's a change to argue with British posters that don't get precious cos you disagree with them.

[Oscar Namechange]

Rapunzel;1172862 wrote: You're so right. So many kids ARE like this today. Why do you think that is? Can we lay the blame at the door of people who have too many kids AND who can't cope with them? Or parents who work and have no time for their kids (unlike 60 years ago when mothers were always(?) homemakers and took care of their kids and knew where they were? I don't think either of those are the reason and am stumped as to why so MANY kids are now so unruly and rude and lacking in respect for anyone or anything. Where do you think the blame can be laid for this don't care nonchalent attitude? (Just curious). We were at a police/residents surgery recently and residents were begging police to arrest a gang of 40 or so who gathered by shops at night terrorising anything and anybody. One poilespokesidiot went into a long speech of excuses for them which included what you said about 60 years ago when mothers were home-makers etc. He was saying that with the present credit crunch etc that kids were left to roam the streets as parents were having to hold down two jobs and mum was out at work as well. Mr O got up and said 'well you've just described my childhood 60 yrs ago during and after the war and we didn't behave like that'.

60 years ago or not much before, most men were away at war at the mother worked in munitions factory's or on the land etc. There was more cause for kids to go bad then than there is today, so sorry R...... the two don't go together.

My theory is that children simply grow up too quick these days and often a 10 yr old child has the brain of a 20 yr old. Weather that is to do with violent tv etc, i don't know. What i do feel, is that a child can not be expected to commit an adult crime and then cry that they are a little boy once in court.

We see it all around us here where we live. For example..... If i said the word '*****' in the street and was heard by enough witnesses who were offended, the police can arrest and charge me with a 'section 4' for offensive language in the street. If a child does the same, however many complain, the police will say 'oh it's just kids', yet i'm equally offended at hearing a 10 year old use the C word in the street. Until the authorities start using the law against ANYONE commiting a crime, things will never change. I'm sure it is because kids constantly push boundaries and get away with more and more each day because they are never challenged.

[Oscar Namechange]

gmc;1172911 wrote: It is a fact that if children are abused from an early age or not socialised enough they end up not being able to relate to people-they become sociopaths. Yet you still get those whose first knee jerk reaction is that they must be monsters and it's a sign that society is failing and that we need to go back to basics and beat our children unmercifully. There have always been gangs of teenagers running around-go back to roman times and you find articles complaining abiout the very same phenomenon. I was a latchkey kid. i remember readig about how i was going to be a troublemaker because-god forbid-my single parent mother went out to work and I looked after myself when I came home from school. It was simplistic nonsense then and it still is now.

We have a major problem in our cities as we built massive housing estates with no shops or facilities to cater for the numbers of children that were going to be there. Sports facilities are all very well but if you have no money you can't go to them. we build over playing fields and ban them from playing on any grassy area (how often have you see no ball game signs) and wonder why kids just hang around getting in to mischief. Even going to the park with their mates is fraught with the risk of adults phoning up the police worried about teenage gangs hyped up by non-stop reports in the press about gangs of feral children.

This kind of thing has gone on since time immemorial it such a shocking example that it hits the headlines. I'm not suggesting these kids should be left on the streets but do you really want to go back to the days of draconian punishments.

posted by oscar



You can't on the one hand complain about the police overstepping their authority in some posts and then call for them to be able to lock up people without trial and throw away the key. (unless of course you are in the BNP and such inconsistencies of logic don't bother you)

Johann Hari: The child who kills is the child who never had a chance - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent





We also used to pretend child abuse didn't happen-it's not that there are more cases happening it is that now children have some hope of being believed when they speak out. So now society is declining because more cases get reported and acted on. It used to be acceptable to beat up your wife as well now at least many would call it unacceptable and give support to a runaway wife in such circumstances instead of turning our backs on someone who had broken up the family by deserting her husband.

posted by peter lake



Bollocks bollocks poppycock and tosh!! So what your saying is that if a kid has been abused himself..... then excuses are made when he tortures and nearly kills some-one elses child.

As i said before..... I used to make excuses for these kids as well but enough is enough. People who raise their kids decently with care and thought for others have a right to have their children protected while they are out playing. Other-wise this country will reach a stage where parents will be frightened to let their kids out to play. Why the hell should it be like that?

Here we are again..... two absolute horrid violent kids who have brough serious injury and misery to two innocent children who will probably never get over it. What if they were your children that were attacked?

The government has to stop wheeling out the child do-gooders and start protecting the innocent. Lock them up and let them rot. That way, other peoples children may be safer in the future.

[gmc]

oscar;1172938 wrote: So what your saying is that if a kid has been abused himself..... then excuses are made when he tortures and nearly kills some-one elses child.

As i said before..... I used to make excuses for these kids as well but enough is enough. People who raise their kids decently with care and thought for others have a right to have their children protected while they are out playing. Other-wise this country will reach a stage where parents will be frightened to let their kids out to play. Why the hell should it be like that?

Here we are again..... two absolute horrid violent kids who have brough serious injury and misery to two innocent children who will probably never get over it. What if they were your children that were attacked?

The government has to stop wheeling out the child do-gooders and start protecting the innocent. Lock them up and let them rot. That way, other peoples children may be safer in the future.


It's not making excuses for them but if you can understand why these kids did something like this you might have a better chance of preventing a repeat. Do you really think these kids would have been deterred if they knew they would be locked up for life or even executed? Our laws recognise that some people are not capable of understanding the consequences of their actions-we don't expect children to be able to reason the same way as an adult though at some point we have to draw a line and say from now on the decisions and consequences are your responsibility. Some children are more mature than either-usually because they have had to be just as some people never quite grow up.

I would want these perpetrators locked up for good but this idea that some are just born bad is a ludicrous simplistic one and does nothing to prevent a future occurrence. Draconian measures just don't work-they haven't in the past and there's is no reason to think they will now. We don't have borstals any more because they did not work. We don't imprison children who commit petty crime because it doesn't work.

Who gets to decide who is innocent? If you're a teenager with not much money you can't go to sports centres and the like-you can't go away for the weekend. You live in a big housing estate built with no thought of providing anything for all the children they knew would live there to do, you can't even play football-how often do you see no ball game signs without being chased away. If you go to the park with your mates some daily mail reader calls the police to complain about crowds of teenager congregating so what's left to do. You hang round in gangs with your mates getting in to mischief until the police come along and chase you away for just being there and worse for being a teenager. teenage boys in particular have always got in to fights with each other-if there is nothing else to do it becomes the sole way of spending time and things escalate.

Dundee used t b the murder capital of europe because of the gang warfare, glasgow had the razor gangs. You need to think about why people do things rather than just write them off as so much rubbish.

Take your wastrel nephew for instance- maybe locking him up for the rest of his life might be the best thing for him. While you're at it take away the rest of your sisters children and put them ion care for their own good0clearly she us inadequate a parent. Do you think that a reasonable approach?

We do have problem with policing in this country and throughout europe come to that. It's the same one there has always been but things area lot better than they used to be. You won't find answers in the daily mail though nor in creating a fascist police state.

You need to try and be consistent. You can't complain about the police abusing their authority in the case of your own arrest and then advocate giving them draconian powers of arrest whoever they like just because they might do something.

posted by oscar

One poilespokesidiot went into a long speech of excuses for them which included what you said about 60 years ago when mothers were home-makers etc. He was saying that with the present credit crunch etc that kids were left to roam the streets as parents were having to hold down two jobs and mum was out at work as well. Mr O got up and said 'well you've just described my childhood 60 yrs ago during and after the war and we didn't behave like that'.


I was a latch key kid-child of a single parent growing up on a council housing estate. Being pilloried as a potential troublemaker angered me then and it still does now-as does those who hark back to some imagined paradise of their youth when family values were paramount. It's load of bollocks. I have fond memories of fleeing gangs of kids my own age- the school I went to had gangs running protection rackets yet I know contemporaries at the same school that were unaware of it all gong on.

I've got a neighbour that worries about gong down to the park area with his dog for a walk if there is a crowd of teenagers-it's a park for goodness sake. If you talk to them most are friendly. You get the odd mouthy one and occasionally a rival group will appear an cause trouble. My wife is a teacher in one of the local schools she gets hello miss-the fags get hidden and the hoodies pulled down, even the ones in their twenties do it. it's quite funny but it' the same group of kids my neighbour fears. In reality it is a very few that cause all the trouble.

There is a danger is lumping everybody together as being a waste of space. To be blunt I have little time for numpties that call for strong measures to be taken without having the common sense to think about it first. It never seems occur to them it might be the own kids or even themselves that are going to get arrested and thrown in jail without benefit of a fair trial. After all know from personal experience that every accused person must be guilty-don't we:sneaky:

[Oscar Namechange]

gmc;1173380 wrote: It's not making excuses for them but if you can understand why these kids did something like this you might have a better chance of preventing a repeat. Do you really think these kids would have been deterred if they knew they would be locked up for life or even executed? Our laws recognise that some people are not capable of understanding the consequences of their actions-we don't expect children to be able to reason the same way as an adult though at some point we have to draw a line and say from now on the decisions and consequences are your responsibility. Some children are more mature than either-usually because they have had to be just as some people never quite grow up.

I would want these perpetrators locked up for good but this idea that some are just born bad is a ludicrous simplistic one and does nothing to prevent a future occurrence. Draconian measures just don't work-they haven't in the past and there's is no reason to think they will now. We don't have borstals any more because they did not work. We don't imprison children who commit petty crime because it doesn't work.

Who gets to decide who is innocent? If you're a teenager with not much money you can't go to sports centres and the like-you can't go away for the weekend. You live in a big housing estate built with no thought of providing anything for all the children they knew would live there to do, you can't even play football-how often do you see no ball game signs without being chased away. If you go to the park with your mates some daily mail reader calls the police to complain about crowds of teenager congregating so what's left to do. You hang round in gangs with your mates getting in to mischief until the police come along and chase you away for just being there and worse for being a teenager. teenage boys in particular have always got in to fights with each other-if there is nothing else to do it becomes the sole way of spending time and things escalate.

Dundee used t b the murder capital of europe because of the gang warfare, glasgow had the razor gangs. You need to think about why people do things rather than just write them off as so much rubbish.

Take your wastrel nephew for instance- maybe locking him up for the rest of his life might be the best thing for him. While you're at it take away the rest of your sisters children and put them ion care for their own good0clearly she us inadequate a parent. Do you think that a reasonable approach?

We do have problem with policing in this country and throughout europe come to that. It's the same one there has always been but things area lot better than they used to be. You won't find answers in the daily mail though nor in creating a fascist police state.

You need to try and be consistent. You can't complain about the police abusing their authority in the case of your own arrest and then advocate giving them draconian powers of arrest whoever they like just because they might do something.

posted by oscar



I was a latch key kid-child of a single parent growing up on a council housing estate. Being pilloried as a potential troublemaker angered me then and it still does now-as does those who hark back to some imagined paradise of their youth when family values were paramount. It's load of bollocks. I have fond memories of fleeing gangs of kids my own age- the school I went to had gangs running protection rackets yet I know contemporaries at the same school that were unaware of it all gong on.

I've got a neighbour that worries about gong down to the park area with his dog for a walk if there is a crowd of teenagers-it's a park for goodness sake. If you talk to them most are friendly. You get the odd mouthy one and occasionally a rival group will appear an cause trouble. My wife is a teacher in one of the local schools she gets hello miss-the fags get hidden and the hoodies pulled down, even the ones in their twenties do it. it's quite funny but it' the same group of kids my neighbour fears. In reality it is a very few that cause all the trouble.

There is a danger is lumping everybody together as being a waste of space. To be blunt I have little time for numpties that call for strong measures to be taken without having the common sense to think about it first. It never seems occur to them it might be the own kids or even themselves that are going to get arrested and thrown in jail without benefit of a fair trial. After all know from personal experience that every accused person must be guilty-don't we:sneaky: Have to go to work but i'll answer when i get home. Youll be very pleased to hear that I'll be away at Ascot for the week very soon as well. nerrr