Barry George has been found not guilty of murdering BBC television presenter Jill Dando outside her London home.
Mr George, 48, of Fulham, west London, denied shooting 37-year-old Miss Dando on her doorstep on 26 April 1999.
He was first convicted in 2001 but an Old Bailey retrial was ordered after doubt was cast on the reliability of gunshot residue evidence.
In a statement issued through his solicitor Jeremy Moore, Mr George said he was "overwhelmed" by the verdict.
Mr Moore added: "This is not a time to celebrate. Barry George, an innocent man, has spent eight years in prison for a crime he did not commit.
"Those eight years could have been better served by the police in searching for the real killer."
Mr Moore said he would not be surprised if Mr George, who left the Old bailey in a taxi, sought compensation for the time wrongly spent in jail.
Barry George's solicitor reacts to the verdict
The jury of eight women and four men was sent out to deliberate on Wednesday after an eight-week trial.
Mr George has consistently insisted he did not murder Ms Dando.
He showed no reaction as the verdict was read out but nodded as psychologist Dr Susan Young, who sat with him in the dock during the case, whispered to him.
Outside court, Dr Young said: "Throughout the trial, he did not dare to get his hopes up and he continually said to me in the dock he believed he would be convicted.
"His eyes filled with tears and he took a very deep breath."
Mr George was arrested on 15 May 2000, a year after the shooting in Gowan Avenue.
His defence argued he was not capable of carrying out what could be seen as the "perfect crime" that required "meticulous" planning.
Forensic evidence about a tiny speck of gun residue found in Barry George's coat pocket after his arrest helped secure his original conviction.
The prosecution said this proved that he had fired the fatal shot and he was convicted by a majority of 10 to one.
But last year, the Court of Appeal ruled new scientific doubts over the evidence meant the conviction had to be quashed and ordered a retrial.
The appeal hearing was told it was "just as likely" that the particle came from "some extraneous source as it was that it came from a gun fired" and the residue evidence was not permitted to be put before the retrial jury.
Mr George's sister Michelle Diskin, who has led the fight for his release, was instrumental in getting the Criminal Cases Review Commission to refer the case to the Court of Appeal.
"We are really delighted to finally have justice," she said.
Barry George's sister said she hoped police will launch a reinvestigation
"A huge thank you to the jury. They obviously worked very hard to ensure they correctly interpreted the circumstantial evidence in this case...
"We've been fighting for many years. Now we need time to get back together as a family. We also hope that the police will now look again into the murder of Jill Dando."
The Crown Prosecution Service defended its original decision to charge Mr George.
In a statement it said: "Mr George now has the right to be regarded as an innocent man. But that does not mean it was wrong to bring the case.
"Our test is always whether there is sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction; it would be wholly wrong only to bring cases where we were guaranteed a conviction."
The Met Police said it would reflect on George's acquittal and "consider how best to proceed".
Commander Simon Foy, head of Scotland Yard's homicide and serious crime command, said: "We are disappointed by today's verdict but especially disappointed for Jill's family and friends. However, we respect the decision of the court."
The prosecution had used a change in the law to introduce so-called bad character evidence at the retrial.
Jill Dando was one of the most popular presenters on television
They painted an image of Mr George approaching a series of women on the streets of Fulham.
The prosecution told the jury Mr George was a celebrity and gun-obsessed stalker with a grudge against the BBC, where he had worked as a messenger for a short time in the past.
He was said to have photographed hundreds of women and was described as a fantasist who told people he was the cousin of the late Queen singer Freddie Mercury.
When police searched his home in Crookham Road, officers found 2,248 photographs he had taken of women.
Prosecutors also maintained that witness identification was the most important part of their case.
But only one witness could be 100% sure that they had seen Mr George in Gowan Avenue.
Defence counsel William Clegg QC maintained the prosecution case was circumstantial and said there was no direct evidence that George was the killer.
Extracts from Barry George police interviews in 2000
The court has heard that Mr George has an IQ of 75, in the lowest 5% of the population.
The jury at the retrial was also told that the defendant had a history of complex medical problems and told police that he had a "personality disorder".
Mr Clegg told jurors: "The only reason that the prosecution say that this is the work of the local loner, the local nutter, the man with these serious psychological problems, is because that is the man they arrested.
"But if you look at the facts of the case they will give you a very different story."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So who did Kill Jill Dando?
Its terrifying how little evidence Barry George was convicted by.
My husband always claimed this guy never done it and I always ignored his ramblings on of Dando upsetting "higher" folk with some of her work. Now I have to listen to it again tonight:rolleyes::rolleyes:
So 9 years on and the "real" killer has been free to re offend...I dont they will ever find them now.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Chezzie;938276 wrote: Its terrifying how little evidence Barry George was convicted by.That's juries for you when you put someone on trial who looks unkempt and is as antisocial as it's possible to get without being sectioned into a mental hospital, and then say he shot the nation's heartthrob in cold blood because his brain was addled.
It doesn't help when expert witnesses allow the police to edge their evidence over the line where it can be considered speculative and into the region of proof. Police and expert witnesses who do that ought to be held to account when it's shown they colluded.
Barry George might not be someone you'd want to spend time with but that's no excuse to scapegoat him for lack of a real suspect. In the long run you end up having abused everybody, Jill Dando most of all.
It doesn't help when expert witnesses allow the police to edge their evidence over the line where it can be considered speculative and into the region of proof. Police and expert witnesses who do that ought to be held to account when it's shown they colluded.
Barry George might not be someone you'd want to spend time with but that's no excuse to scapegoat him for lack of a real suspect. In the long run you end up having abused everybody, Jill Dando most of all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
It's always good to see justice done.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
It's just as well we got rid of the death penalty, all things considered.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
He's still getting the rough end of the stick, Barry George. The tabloids ought, given all they do, to be loathed by the British public. Too few people in this country care about fairness, balance and honesty.
reports suggested Mr George had threatened to pester and harass Ms Cole and her colleagues so he could meet the Girls Aloud singer and X Factor judge. It was also claimed Mr George had downloaded pictures of Sky presenter Ms Burley, and said that he loved her and she loved him.
MGN agreed to pay substantial damages and Mr George's costs, and Emily Barber, solicitor for the newspaper group, said that it apologised for any hurt and distress caused to him. In December last year, Mr George accepted libel damages from News Group Newspapers - owner of the Sun and the News of the World. That payout related to articles suggesting Mr George murdered Miss Dando, and further claims he was stalking women.
BBC News - Barry George wins libel damages over obsession claims
reports suggested Mr George had threatened to pester and harass Ms Cole and her colleagues so he could meet the Girls Aloud singer and X Factor judge. It was also claimed Mr George had downloaded pictures of Sky presenter Ms Burley, and said that he loved her and she loved him.
MGN agreed to pay substantial damages and Mr George's costs, and Emily Barber, solicitor for the newspaper group, said that it apologised for any hurt and distress caused to him. In December last year, Mr George accepted libel damages from News Group Newspapers - owner of the Sun and the News of the World. That payout related to articles suggesting Mr George murdered Miss Dando, and further claims he was stalking women.
BBC News - Barry George wins libel damages over obsession claims
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Royd Fissure
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
n a statement issued through his solicitor Jeremy Moore, Mr George said he was "overwhelmed" by the verdict.
Mr Moore added: "This is not a time to celebrate. Barry George, an innocent man, has spent eight years in prison for a crime he did not commit.
"Those eight years could have been better served by the police in searching for the real killer."
Leave it out Mr Moore, you know how the system works, that last comment is totally disingenuous. The problems aren't with the police or for that matter any individual part of the criminal justice system, the problems are with the system itself.
Mr Moore added: "This is not a time to celebrate. Barry George, an innocent man, has spent eight years in prison for a crime he did not commit.
"Those eight years could have been better served by the police in searching for the real killer."
Leave it out Mr Moore, you know how the system works, that last comment is totally disingenuous. The problems aren't with the police or for that matter any individual part of the criminal justice system, the problems are with the system itself.
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Bill Sikes
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
spot;938283 wrote: That's juries for you when you put someone on trial who looks unkempt and is as antisocial as it's possible to get without being sectioned into a mental hospital, and then say he shot the nation's heartthrob in cold blood because his brain was addled.
This is rubbish. Juries decide primarily on evidence, and are rather reluctant to convict, sometimes when given almost incontrovertible evidence.
This is rubbish. Juries decide primarily on evidence, and are rather reluctant to convict, sometimes when given almost incontrovertible evidence.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Perhaps you'd like to expand on that. In what way does "the system" consist of more than the individuals who design and implement it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Royd Fissure
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
I think that's for me spot?
The "system" is a hodge-podge. It's the same here in Australia as it is in other common law jurisdictions (allowing that some of our states/territories have codified laws but still use the common law processes and procedures).
I think I know what you may be arguing. Any system is subject to maladministration, human nature being what it is. But I would suggest that the whole basis of the common law system is flawed - at least in terms of criminal process - and is more susceptible to - I have to use the word - "corruption" (of process). Even the basic premises of its logic - inference/beyond reasonable doubt - are worth questioning and when they are connected with the adversarial nature of all the processes then it seems to be approaching an untenable situation.
The "system" is a hodge-podge. It's the same here in Australia as it is in other common law jurisdictions (allowing that some of our states/territories have codified laws but still use the common law processes and procedures).
I think I know what you may be arguing. Any system is subject to maladministration, human nature being what it is. But I would suggest that the whole basis of the common law system is flawed - at least in terms of criminal process - and is more susceptible to - I have to use the word - "corruption" (of process). Even the basic premises of its logic - inference/beyond reasonable doubt - are worth questioning and when they are connected with the adversarial nature of all the processes then it seems to be approaching an untenable situation.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Are you suggesting you can imagine a system within which people accused of a crime are never sentenced if in reality they didn't do what they're accused of? Unless you're going that far, the most you're aiming to achieve is to replace one flawed system with another flawed system. Other countries have non-adversarial investigation processes but they don't avoid sentencing people for crimes they didn't commit.
Reducing the rate of wrongful conviction depends more, in my view, of improving investigation procedures than on changing the nature of the trial process. Currently the police develop a theory and attempt to build a case against an individual. That involves focusing their investigation and, at worst, suppressing (or refusing to consider or investigate) potential evidence which disproves their theory. That's the weak link in the existing framework: bad policing.
Reducing the rate of wrongful conviction depends more, in my view, of improving investigation procedures than on changing the nature of the trial process. Currently the police develop a theory and attempt to build a case against an individual. That involves focusing their investigation and, at worst, suppressing (or refusing to consider or investigate) potential evidence which disproves their theory. That's the weak link in the existing framework: bad policing.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
spot;938283 wrote: That's juries for you when you put someone on trial who looks unkempt and is as antisocial as it's possible to get without being sectioned into a mental hospital, and then say he shot the nation's heartthrob in cold blood because his brain was addled.
It doesn't help when expert witnesses allow the police to edge their evidence over the line where it can be considered speculative and into the region of proof. Police and expert witnesses who do that ought to be held to account when it's shown they colluded.
Barry George might not be someone you'd want to spend time with but that's no excuse to scapegoat him for lack of a real suspect. In the long run you end up having abused everybody, Jill Dando most of all.
Apparently, it would seem, that hearsay evidence is now acceptable in the law courts! Please check this, Mr. Spot if you wish - I have personal experience of this, as I was informed by a criminal law lawyer, and it is not what most people would call justice! Not when a 'witness' can invent a story and those words, without backing evidence, can be taken into account when it comes to deciding the fate of somebody 'in the dock' !
I personally feel that it would be better to have 3 judges preside and make decisions in court, instead of juries and the too often strange decisions that they make from time to time. It would also eliminate jury pressure from outsiders.
I firmly believe that many jurists are confused by the direction 'beyond reasonable doubt', and there are too many sheep who do jury service. After all, very few have even smatterings of knowledge of things legal, and to say that a jury is the fairest way of working out a decision is not so, these days, in my opinion.
It doesn't help when expert witnesses allow the police to edge their evidence over the line where it can be considered speculative and into the region of proof. Police and expert witnesses who do that ought to be held to account when it's shown they colluded.
Barry George might not be someone you'd want to spend time with but that's no excuse to scapegoat him for lack of a real suspect. In the long run you end up having abused everybody, Jill Dando most of all.
Apparently, it would seem, that hearsay evidence is now acceptable in the law courts! Please check this, Mr. Spot if you wish - I have personal experience of this, as I was informed by a criminal law lawyer, and it is not what most people would call justice! Not when a 'witness' can invent a story and those words, without backing evidence, can be taken into account when it comes to deciding the fate of somebody 'in the dock' !
I personally feel that it would be better to have 3 judges preside and make decisions in court, instead of juries and the too often strange decisions that they make from time to time. It would also eliminate jury pressure from outsiders.
I firmly believe that many jurists are confused by the direction 'beyond reasonable doubt', and there are too many sheep who do jury service. After all, very few have even smatterings of knowledge of things legal, and to say that a jury is the fairest way of working out a decision is not so, these days, in my opinion.
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
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Peter Lake
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
I find the whole police enquiry into Barry George reminicscent of the Colin Stagg enquiry. A relentless persuit of the innocent by police to appease the public in high profile cases and something that is far more common than people imagine. Reputations, results, public appeasement and political leanings often outweigh truth and decency in the police force.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
You appear to share certain aspects of your wife's philosophy, Peter.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Peter Lake
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- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
spot;1310115 wrote: You appear to share certain aspects of your wife's philosophy, Peter.
Naturally Spot as it makes life far quieter but in the case of Barry George and Colin Stagg i see similarities. Both were the local oddballs and easy targets for the police.
Naturally Spot as it makes life far quieter but in the case of Barry George and Colin Stagg i see similarities. Both were the local oddballs and easy targets for the police.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Peter Lake;1310117 wrote: Both were the local oddballs and easy targets for the police.No doubt Kingswood's Finest have fallen foul of similar temptations on occasion.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Peter Lake
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- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
spot;1310119 wrote: No doubt Kingswood's Finest have fallen foul of similar temptations on occasion.
Sardonic retorts are wasted on me Spot.
Sardonic retorts are wasted on me Spot.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Peter Lake;1310120 wrote: Sardonic retorts are wasted on me Spot.
Pass them on, dear boy, pass them on.
Pass them on, dear boy, pass them on.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Peter Lake
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- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
G#Gill;1310090 wrote: Apparently, it would seem, that hearsay evidence is now acceptable in the law courts! Please check this, Mr. Spot if you wish - I have personal experience of this, as I was informed by a criminal law lawyer, and it is not what most people would call justice! Not when a 'witness' can invent a story and those words, without backing evidence, can be taken into account when it comes to deciding the fate of somebody 'in the dock' !
I personally feel that it would be better to have 3 judges preside and make decisions in court, instead of juries and the too often strange decisions that they make from time to time. It would also eliminate jury pressure from outsiders.
I firmly believe that many jurists are confused by the direction 'beyond reasonable doubt', and there are too many sheep who do jury service. After all, very few have even smatterings of knowledge of things legal, and to say that a jury is the fairest way of working out a decision is not so, these days, in my opinion.
Whilst it's important to have a jury with the public from all walks of life i have to agree with you. A relative of ours was called for jury service and had only just given birth to twins, one of which was kept under observation in the hospital. She was also not the brightest spark and she was called to a lengthy fraud case. She did everything possible to excuse herself but they insisted she serve. First of all she was in no fit state medically to attend, her mind naturally was on the babies she had just given birth to and by her own admission, she didn't understand a word of which was being argued. By her account nor did most of the jury members.
I personally feel that it would be better to have 3 judges preside and make decisions in court, instead of juries and the too often strange decisions that they make from time to time. It would also eliminate jury pressure from outsiders.
I firmly believe that many jurists are confused by the direction 'beyond reasonable doubt', and there are too many sheep who do jury service. After all, very few have even smatterings of knowledge of things legal, and to say that a jury is the fairest way of working out a decision is not so, these days, in my opinion.
Whilst it's important to have a jury with the public from all walks of life i have to agree with you. A relative of ours was called for jury service and had only just given birth to twins, one of which was kept under observation in the hospital. She was also not the brightest spark and she was called to a lengthy fraud case. She did everything possible to excuse herself but they insisted she serve. First of all she was in no fit state medically to attend, her mind naturally was on the babies she had just given birth to and by her own admission, she didn't understand a word of which was being argued. By her account nor did most of the jury members.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
It's the "relentless persuit" bit. Oscar's spelled "pursuit" wrongly in six different posts so far. Unless it's a family trait, of course.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Peter Lake
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
spot;1310131 wrote: It's the "relentless persuit" bit. Oscar's spelled "pursuit" wrongly in six different posts so far. Unless it's a family trait, of course. Good heavens i will be spelling sentence incorrectly next. Really Spot you are so suspicious. As the wife has numerous e mail accounts i'm sure she could set up a new account here to take you to task should she wish without using mine or as she still has your home phone number she could just stalk you instead. Besides, i'm sure once all the activity in Winchester is over i shall be banished from her laptop again and my posts will be rare.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Has there not been calls or suggestions that juries are abandoned, or at least hand picked for complex trials such as fraud etc ? I can understand the logic in that. Specially selected jury members taken from the specific field in question would bring the expertise necessary to understand all the vagaries that would make a mere grunt like me glaze over.
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Peter Lake
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Snowfire;1310133 wrote: Has there not been calls or suggestions that juries are abandoned, or at least hand picked for complex trials such as fraud etc ? I can understand the logic in that. Specially selected jury members taken from the specific field in question would bring the expertise necessary to understand all the vagaries that would make a mere grunt like me glaze over.
The case with our relative was many years ago and i hope there would've been some changes since then. Also by her own admission at the time she was terrified of not understanding and being pressured by a few jury members who insisted they did understand. She was a fish out water and i don't believe should ever have been put in that position so i hope things have changed.
The case with our relative was many years ago and i hope there would've been some changes since then. Also by her own admission at the time she was terrified of not understanding and being pressured by a few jury members who insisted they did understand. She was a fish out water and i don't believe should ever have been put in that position so i hope things have changed.
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Bill Sikes
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Peter Lake;1310128 wrote: A relative of ours ... did everything possible to excuse herself but they insisted she serve.
You must have missed something out there. If she wasn't fit, there was an alternative. This sounds like a "tale".
You must have missed something out there. If she wasn't fit, there was an alternative. This sounds like a "tale".
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Royd Fissure
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
spot;1310017 wrote: Are you suggesting you can imagine a system within which people accused of a crime are never sentenced if in reality they didn't do what they're accused of? Unless you're going that far, the most you're aiming to achieve is to replace one flawed system with another flawed system. Other countries have non-adversarial investigation processes but they don't avoid sentencing people for crimes they didn't commit.
Reducing the rate of wrongful conviction depends more, in my view, of improving investigation procedures than on changing the nature of the trial process. Currently the police develop a theory and attempt to build a case against an individual. That involves focusing their investigation and, at worst, suppressing (or refusing to consider or investigate) potential evidence which disproves their theory. That's the weak link in the existing framework: bad policing.
All systems are flawed, they’re based on probability (in varying degrees). My problem with adversarial systems is that the trial is a sort of game, where the rules are more important than the examination of the evidence. The rules surrounding admissibility are archaic. That’s probably my biggest gripe. At least in an inquisitorial system evidence is weighed rather than disputed in terms of its admissibility.
Criminal investigations in adversarial systems are problematic. The rules of evidence are used to control police - bad behaviour means refusing to admit evidence - but that only hurts the case and does nothing to correct improper behaviour by police. Again looking to the inquisitorial systems - I’m thinking particularly of France - having an external supervising agent for the more serious matters may be a start. You’re quite right, police do form a hypothesis and then try to prove it and being reluctant to change the nature of the hypothesis because the evidence points elsewhere is a problem. Put it down to human nature and to the adversarial nature of the criminal justice system, not just the police.
Reducing the rate of wrongful conviction depends more, in my view, of improving investigation procedures than on changing the nature of the trial process. Currently the police develop a theory and attempt to build a case against an individual. That involves focusing their investigation and, at worst, suppressing (or refusing to consider or investigate) potential evidence which disproves their theory. That's the weak link in the existing framework: bad policing.
All systems are flawed, they’re based on probability (in varying degrees). My problem with adversarial systems is that the trial is a sort of game, where the rules are more important than the examination of the evidence. The rules surrounding admissibility are archaic. That’s probably my biggest gripe. At least in an inquisitorial system evidence is weighed rather than disputed in terms of its admissibility.
Criminal investigations in adversarial systems are problematic. The rules of evidence are used to control police - bad behaviour means refusing to admit evidence - but that only hurts the case and does nothing to correct improper behaviour by police. Again looking to the inquisitorial systems - I’m thinking particularly of France - having an external supervising agent for the more serious matters may be a start. You’re quite right, police do form a hypothesis and then try to prove it and being reluctant to change the nature of the hypothesis because the evidence points elsewhere is a problem. Put it down to human nature and to the adversarial nature of the criminal justice system, not just the police.
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Peter Lake
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Bill Sikes;1310198 wrote: You must have missed something out there. If she wasn't fit, there was an alternative. This sounds like a "tale".
Good heavens Bill, you seem to have had a varied life. I didn't know that you were the head of the jury central summoning bureau twenty years ago.
Good heavens Bill, you seem to have had a varied life. I didn't know that you were the head of the jury central summoning bureau twenty years ago.
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Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Royd Fissure;1310563 wrote: All systems are flawed, they’re based on probability (in varying degrees). My problem with adversarial systems is that the trial is a sort of game, where the rules are more important than the examination of the evidence. The rules surrounding admissibility are archaic. That’s probably my biggest gripe. At least in an inquisitorial system evidence is weighed rather than disputed in terms of its admissibility.
Criminal investigations in adversarial systems are problematic. The rules of evidence are used to control police - bad behaviour means refusing to admit evidence - but that only hurts the case and does nothing to correct improper behaviour by police. Again looking to the inquisitorial systems - I’m thinking particularly of France - having an external supervising agent for the more serious matters may be a start. You’re quite right, police do form a hypothesis and then try to prove it and being reluctant to change the nature of the hypothesis because the evidence points elsewhere is a problem. Put it down to human nature and to the adversarial nature of the criminal justice system, not just the police. Is it not the case that the cps can only decide to prosecute based on the investigating police officer's version of events? Perhaps if there was a review in that department, many of the cases that should never have reached a court room could save the public money.
Criminal investigations in adversarial systems are problematic. The rules of evidence are used to control police - bad behaviour means refusing to admit evidence - but that only hurts the case and does nothing to correct improper behaviour by police. Again looking to the inquisitorial systems - I’m thinking particularly of France - having an external supervising agent for the more serious matters may be a start. You’re quite right, police do form a hypothesis and then try to prove it and being reluctant to change the nature of the hypothesis because the evidence points elsewhere is a problem. Put it down to human nature and to the adversarial nature of the criminal justice system, not just the police. Is it not the case that the cps can only decide to prosecute based on the investigating police officer's version of events? Perhaps if there was a review in that department, many of the cases that should never have reached a court room could save the public money.
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Royd Fissure
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Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Peter Lake;1310612 wrote: Is it not the case that the cps can only decide to prosecute based on the investigating police officer's version of events? Perhaps if there was a review in that department, many of the cases that should never have reached a court room could save the public money.
I really don't know how the CPS operates I'm afraid. But it is true that in common law systems (aside from some special cases where there might be early liaison between investigators and prosecutors) the police get out and gather the evidence and present it for consideration of prosecution. The decision to prosecute is with that authority and sometimes they get a flogging if they don't go ahead and give it a try - sometimes I think they do it to avoid a public backlash even though a case may be quite shaky.
I really don't know how the CPS operates I'm afraid. But it is true that in common law systems (aside from some special cases where there might be early liaison between investigators and prosecutors) the police get out and gather the evidence and present it for consideration of prosecution. The decision to prosecute is with that authority and sometimes they get a flogging if they don't go ahead and give it a try - sometimes I think they do it to avoid a public backlash even though a case may be quite shaky.
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Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
Peter Lake;1310611 wrote: Good heavens Bill, you seem to have had a varied life. I didn't know that you were the head of the jury central summoning bureau twenty years ago.
That seems a pretty daft thing to say. 20 years ago, the situation was the same re alternatives. It's still a tale.
That seems a pretty daft thing to say. 20 years ago, the situation was the same re alternatives. It's still a tale.
Barry George cleared of Dando murder
i never for one moment thought he was guilty