Jester;722081 wrote: The question is if you had a choice of only those two which would you choose to be born under as a woman?
I did not brag about marriage statistics in America
The women there cannot choose to do anything without prior common or direct approval of a the patriarchal male or a woman designated to care for them.
Relationships between men and women in N America are in a state of crisis. This thread hold numerous claims that we know better than they do about successful society. Why do you think we have Muslim women in N America who don't abandon their ways and rejoice in the freedom to run naked on Wreck Beach in Vancouver?
Jester;722079 wrote: I would need to analyze the case myself before I admitted I was wrong. Please post a link.
The link is posted in this thread already. If you get the ants out of your pants you'll find it when you look.
Jester;722078 wrote: It is a valid question and not a silly one in the least. You refuse to answer honestly because your argument is bogus. Knowing what you know truthfully about Saudi Arabia can you honestly say justice prevailed? Can you honestly say that women are protected at a reasonable cost to their freedom? Can you honestly report to me you’d rather be born there as a woman? I don’t think you can, because deep down in side you know justice did not prevail and those women are oppressed and its something you can’t stand. Nor should you.
You are mistaken again. My answer was completely honest. You just didn't see it comin'
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RedGlitter
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I keep hearing this comparison to America. I find it hard to believe that Canada fares any better in their social status or marriage record, as if America is the most hellish of all places to be. :rolleyes: Any ideas?
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Canada is terrible. We just denied political asylum to two war protesters from America. 
America is mentioned because it was the prevalent choice of comparison. Spot has already posted crime stat comparisons. Canada ranks higher than the US in reported cases of rape every year. Australia is higher than Canada. Saudi Arabia is last on the list. Those are reported cases though so you are welcome to disregard them but estimates are that in Canada and the US about 75-90% go unreported so I hardly think Saudi Arabia can have more unreported rapes than us.
I do not wish to be another person and, given that, I can't answer that question without bias... therefore, a silly question.
America is mentioned because it was the prevalent choice of comparison. Spot has already posted crime stat comparisons. Canada ranks higher than the US in reported cases of rape every year. Australia is higher than Canada. Saudi Arabia is last on the list. Those are reported cases though so you are welcome to disregard them but estimates are that in Canada and the US about 75-90% go unreported so I hardly think Saudi Arabia can have more unreported rapes than us.
I do not wish to be another person and, given that, I can't answer that question without bias... therefore, a silly question.
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I must retire for the evening.
I find your assessment of my honesty amusing. Your other choice also focuses on a biased example. Of course that woman wishes she was somewhere else.
Since you can't change my words to make them mean what you want, you put words in my mouth saying you know me better than I know myself. How does one argue with logic like that? You're grasping at strawmen. Make yourself a nice pillow out of it and have pleasant dreams.
Night all.
I find your assessment of my honesty amusing. Your other choice also focuses on a biased example. Of course that woman wishes she was somewhere else.
Since you can't change my words to make them mean what you want, you put words in my mouth saying you know me better than I know myself. How does one argue with logic like that? You're grasping at strawmen. Make yourself a nice pillow out of it and have pleasant dreams.
Night all.
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posted by koan
Relationships between men and women in N America are in a state of crisis. This thread hold numerous claims that we know better than they do about successful society. Why do you think we have Muslim women in N America who don't abandon their ways and rejoice in the freedom to run naked on Wreck Beach in Vancouver?
Says who? In muslim law a woman can divorce her husband in saudi she would then have the problem of how to support herself. Would you really like to go back to the days when women and children were the property of the men in their lives and had no say in the matter?
Under regimes where there is the appearance of high morality there is often an underbelly of misery and oppression. Here people talk about victorian family values but victorians turned a blind eye to child slavery and prostitution and thought the govt had no business intervening in what a man did in his own household and had the right to beat his family if he felt like it. There are many who still think a woman has no right to say no or change her mind. If someone robs you some might argue you were asking for it flaunting your wealth but very few would justify the robbers actions on the grounds he was led on.
It's a mistake to assume someone who says they are happy living the way they do such as the muslim women you know really mean it. If you feel you have no alternative the last thing you are going to do is annoy those who have power over you. Were they to actually exercise the choice they would find themselves ostracised by their families which is very powerful social sanction that is hard for a girl to stand up to.
In the west not so long ago women could not be financially independent and a divorced woman was viewed as little better than a prostitute and single women fair game if they went out on their own there are many who still share that sentiment.
Saudi arabia is an aberration in the muslim world. Pakistan for instance also a muslim country but secular in it's government has even had a female prime minister which is more than the US has managed to do. Egypt is secular and women don't have to walk around in tents they don't in syria they don't in Jordan. There are many thing I regard as wrong in the world Saudi is one of them and I think eventually the saudi princes will be overthrown probably by a fundamantalist regime since they are the only opposition that get anywhere. political freedom being another thing you don't get in Saudi Arabia. Fundamantalist Religious government and freedom never go hand in hand be they Christian or Muslim.
Vancouver sound a great place to visit
Relationships between men and women in N America are in a state of crisis. This thread hold numerous claims that we know better than they do about successful society. Why do you think we have Muslim women in N America who don't abandon their ways and rejoice in the freedom to run naked on Wreck Beach in Vancouver?
Says who? In muslim law a woman can divorce her husband in saudi she would then have the problem of how to support herself. Would you really like to go back to the days when women and children were the property of the men in their lives and had no say in the matter?
Under regimes where there is the appearance of high morality there is often an underbelly of misery and oppression. Here people talk about victorian family values but victorians turned a blind eye to child slavery and prostitution and thought the govt had no business intervening in what a man did in his own household and had the right to beat his family if he felt like it. There are many who still think a woman has no right to say no or change her mind. If someone robs you some might argue you were asking for it flaunting your wealth but very few would justify the robbers actions on the grounds he was led on.
It's a mistake to assume someone who says they are happy living the way they do such as the muslim women you know really mean it. If you feel you have no alternative the last thing you are going to do is annoy those who have power over you. Were they to actually exercise the choice they would find themselves ostracised by their families which is very powerful social sanction that is hard for a girl to stand up to.
In the west not so long ago women could not be financially independent and a divorced woman was viewed as little better than a prostitute and single women fair game if they went out on their own there are many who still share that sentiment.
Saudi arabia is an aberration in the muslim world. Pakistan for instance also a muslim country but secular in it's government has even had a female prime minister which is more than the US has managed to do. Egypt is secular and women don't have to walk around in tents they don't in syria they don't in Jordan. There are many thing I regard as wrong in the world Saudi is one of them and I think eventually the saudi princes will be overthrown probably by a fundamantalist regime since they are the only opposition that get anywhere. political freedom being another thing you don't get in Saudi Arabia. Fundamantalist Religious government and freedom never go hand in hand be they Christian or Muslim.
Vancouver sound a great place to visit
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freetobeme
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koan;722086 wrote: Canada is terrible. We just denied political asylum to two war protesters from America.
And rightly so...
Fortunately we in the west don't have the same Islamic laws but how many of the Muslim women who wear the burkha here, do so out of choice and not intimidation. We also would have a much lower crime rate if we employed the same methods they do.
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And rightly so...
Fortunately we in the west don't have the same Islamic laws but how many of the Muslim women who wear the burkha here, do so out of choice and not intimidation. We also would have a much lower crime rate if we employed the same methods they do.
visit me here
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We're now imagining that this girl got in the car with her male friend because she was protesting the country she lived in?
We don't have to believe that Saudi Arabia is better than N America to believe that there might be a middle ground in social values. Every time Western culture takes that attitude we isolate Muslims more and more. What I'm saying is that we don't have it right. I'm not saying we should strip women of their rights and live like they do I'm saying that every culture has a few good ideas.
I also didn't say I would rather be born in Saudi. I said that I'm too biased to answer that question as I was not born there and, to me, it is a completely foreign culture. What I did say is that if I were not born yet, I would choose my place of birth in an entirely different manner than what was suggested. The full explanation involves what you believe about death, rebirth and religion so I didn't get into the details. An unborn child does not choose their place of birth based on a personality and set of morals that no longer exist in spirit. So the question is a religious question to me not a cultural one.
As I've said before, if you think the women all need saving, let them declare political asylum the moment their feet touch American soil in the consulate.
We don't have to believe that Saudi Arabia is better than N America to believe that there might be a middle ground in social values. Every time Western culture takes that attitude we isolate Muslims more and more. What I'm saying is that we don't have it right. I'm not saying we should strip women of their rights and live like they do I'm saying that every culture has a few good ideas.
I also didn't say I would rather be born in Saudi. I said that I'm too biased to answer that question as I was not born there and, to me, it is a completely foreign culture. What I did say is that if I were not born yet, I would choose my place of birth in an entirely different manner than what was suggested. The full explanation involves what you believe about death, rebirth and religion so I didn't get into the details. An unborn child does not choose their place of birth based on a personality and set of morals that no longer exist in spirit. So the question is a religious question to me not a cultural one.
As I've said before, if you think the women all need saving, let them declare political asylum the moment their feet touch American soil in the consulate.
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Jester;722078 wrote: It is a valid question and not a silly one in the least. You refuse to answer honestly because your argument is bogus. Knowing what you know truthfully about Saudi Arabia can you honestly say justice prevailed? Can you honestly say that women are protected at a reasonable cost to their freedom? Can you honestly report to me you’d rather be born there as a woman? I don’t think you can, because deep down in side you know justice did not prevail and those women are oppressed and its something you can’t stand. Nor should you.
You are making the classic mistake of judging them by you own cultural values.
Within their own cultural and legal system justice was done and was seen to be done so yes, justice prevailed.
Women are protected and, using their cultural values, it is at a reasonable cost.
Who are you to tell them that they must lead their lives by your values?
Can you honestly hold up the USA as a paragon of virtue and a role model for the rest of the world?
What about that poor girl who was held captive, tortured and raped - with the full knowledge of his family and friends who accepted it because that's the way that do it round there - was she not oppressed?
What about the poor black lad in LA who had the sh!t kicked out of him by the police, on video only for the police to be acquitted of any wrongdoing - did justice prevail there?
As Koan so aptly said earlier "If Americans are outraged over the situation, why don't you appeal to your government to grant asylum to all Saudi women who step through the gates of the American embassy asking to be rescued from a cruel society? You'd help them much quicker that way and find out which of them want to be saved."
Count them, see how many of them prefer your cultural values to their own - then tell me by what right you seek to impose your values on them.
You are making the classic mistake of judging them by you own cultural values.
Within their own cultural and legal system justice was done and was seen to be done so yes, justice prevailed.
Women are protected and, using their cultural values, it is at a reasonable cost.
Who are you to tell them that they must lead their lives by your values?
Can you honestly hold up the USA as a paragon of virtue and a role model for the rest of the world?
What about that poor girl who was held captive, tortured and raped - with the full knowledge of his family and friends who accepted it because that's the way that do it round there - was she not oppressed?
What about the poor black lad in LA who had the sh!t kicked out of him by the police, on video only for the police to be acquitted of any wrongdoing - did justice prevail there?
As Koan so aptly said earlier "If Americans are outraged over the situation, why don't you appeal to your government to grant asylum to all Saudi women who step through the gates of the American embassy asking to be rescued from a cruel society? You'd help them much quicker that way and find out which of them want to be saved."
Count them, see how many of them prefer your cultural values to their own - then tell me by what right you seek to impose your values on them.
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RedGlitter;722085 wrote: I keep hearing this comparison to America. I find it hard to believe that Canada fares any better in their social status or marriage record, as if America is the most hellish of all places to be. :rolleyes: Any ideas?
The comparison to America is purely because it is an American who is so insistent that his values are better than theirs and should be imposed upon them.
If I was making the same claims then I would expect the comparisons to be about England.
The comparison to America is purely because it is an American who is so insistent that his values are better than theirs and should be imposed upon them.
If I was making the same claims then I would expect the comparisons to be about England.
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Jester;722088 wrote: Since you cannot answer honestly, I withdraw the question as asked, I repeat it but in a rhetorical fashion. And further state that any woman in their right mind would choose to live in America over Saudi Arabia because of the slave nature in which women are treated there. If we asked the woman in the article I bet you ten grand she'd ask to be born in America.
Then, Sir, you are blinkered and I would ask if you have ever been outside the USA? Travel, they say, broadens the mind.
People who are born and brought up in a given culture find that culture normal and reassuring. If taken into a very different culture they become uncertain, distressed and disoriented - this is called culture shock.
To say that anyone in their right mind would chose to give up the security of home and family for a new life as part of a distrusted minority in a country they do not understand is in itself mind boggling.
Then, Sir, you are blinkered and I would ask if you have ever been outside the USA? Travel, they say, broadens the mind.
People who are born and brought up in a given culture find that culture normal and reassuring. If taken into a very different culture they become uncertain, distressed and disoriented - this is called culture shock.
To say that anyone in their right mind would chose to give up the security of home and family for a new life as part of a distrusted minority in a country they do not understand is in itself mind boggling.
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freetobeme;722146 wrote: And rightly so...
Fortunately we in the west don't have the same Islamic laws but how many of the Muslim women who wear the burkha here, do so out of choice and not intimidation. We also would have a much lower crime rate if we employed the same methods they do.
I see no signs whatsoever of intimidation round here and I'd say that between one third and a half of the Muslim women wear the burkha.
What evidence do you have for suggesting that intimidation is used in Canada?
Fortunately we in the west don't have the same Islamic laws but how many of the Muslim women who wear the burkha here, do so out of choice and not intimidation. We also would have a much lower crime rate if we employed the same methods they do.
I see no signs whatsoever of intimidation round here and I'd say that between one third and a half of the Muslim women wear the burkha.
What evidence do you have for suggesting that intimidation is used in Canada?
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freetobeme
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I'm not trolling the internet looking for 'evidence' I said " I wonder how many..." If they've been brought up by a strict family, they likely don't have a choice, and - most likely would not feel comfortable in anything else. Have you heard about Ontario's Muslim only village... with houses built Islamic style - separate living rooms for men and women..
You might want to read up on Irshad Manji, http://www.irshadmanji.com/ an outspoken ex Muslim, and I might add, under a death threat (as is Dr. Waffa Sultan) Manji says that accommodation is giving way to the bullies of Islam.
visit me here
You might want to read up on Irshad Manji, http://www.irshadmanji.com/ an outspoken ex Muslim, and I might add, under a death threat (as is Dr. Waffa Sultan) Manji says that accommodation is giving way to the bullies of Islam.
visit me here
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freetobeme;722296 wrote: I'm not trolling the internet looking for 'evidence' I said " I wonder how many..." If they've been brought up by a strict family, they likely don't have a choice, and - most likely would not feel comfortable in anything else. Have you heard about Ontario's Muslim only village... with houses built Islamic style - separate living rooms for men and women..
You might want to read up on Irshad Manji, http://www.irshadmanji.com/ an outspoken ex Muslim, and I might add, under a death threat (as is Dr. Waffa Sultan) Manji says that accommodation is giving way to the bullies of Islam.
True, you did not state that it was the case, but by suggesting it you implied that it was.
I was wondering whether that was bias speaking or whether you had a basis for that suggestion.
You might want to read up on Irshad Manji, http://www.irshadmanji.com/ an outspoken ex Muslim, and I might add, under a death threat (as is Dr. Waffa Sultan) Manji says that accommodation is giving way to the bullies of Islam.
True, you did not state that it was the case, but by suggesting it you implied that it was.
I was wondering whether that was bias speaking or whether you had a basis for that suggestion.
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freetobeme
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Of course I have a bias towards women's rights... not that I can change another country but will fight pretty hard to ensure that none of it gets a foothold here. Ontario turned down a request for Sharia Law to be applied in some areas, thank goodness.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam ... h-law.html
"Many Muslims believe that because Canada is a secular country, its secular legal system makes it difficult for them to govern themselves by the personal laws of their own religion. For instance, Canada's marriage and divorce laws differ from Muslim law.
It can be important for a Muslim to be granted a divorce under Muslim law, especially if he or she intends to move to a Muslim country in the future and remarry.
Another concern for some is that if a Muslim dies without a will in Ontario, the estate would be divided according to Ontario law as opposed to Muslim law." well duh of course it would be... and it's women affected by this
There is also a paper presented to the gov't re: Muslim laws in Canada but I can't find it, it was a long time ago, but it's around somewhere, if I can find it I'll post it.
You must know that some groups in Britain have also requested Sharia Law
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... aria19.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... aria29.xml
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... =1770&ct=5
Then of course there are those who really do want a global Caliphate and of course Sharia Law
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4131762.stm
The London bombings have prompted the UK government to outlaw Hizb ut Tahrir - a radical Islamic group that wants to replace secular governments with an Islamic Caliphate, or super-state run according to Sharia Law.
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam ... h-law.html
"Many Muslims believe that because Canada is a secular country, its secular legal system makes it difficult for them to govern themselves by the personal laws of their own religion. For instance, Canada's marriage and divorce laws differ from Muslim law.
It can be important for a Muslim to be granted a divorce under Muslim law, especially if he or she intends to move to a Muslim country in the future and remarry.
Another concern for some is that if a Muslim dies without a will in Ontario, the estate would be divided according to Ontario law as opposed to Muslim law." well duh of course it would be... and it's women affected by this
There is also a paper presented to the gov't re: Muslim laws in Canada but I can't find it, it was a long time ago, but it's around somewhere, if I can find it I'll post it.
You must know that some groups in Britain have also requested Sharia Law
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... aria19.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... aria29.xml
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... =1770&ct=5
Then of course there are those who really do want a global Caliphate and of course Sharia Law
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4131762.stm
The London bombings have prompted the UK government to outlaw Hizb ut Tahrir - a radical Islamic group that wants to replace secular governments with an Islamic Caliphate, or super-state run according to Sharia Law.
visit me here
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freetobeme;722296 wrote: I'm not trolling the internet looking for 'evidence' I said " I wonder how many..." If they've been brought up by a strict family, they likely don't have a choice, and - most likely would not feel comfortable in anything else. Have you heard about Ontario's Muslim only village... with houses built Islamic style - separate living rooms for men and women..Good lord... I *know* people who have accepted nominal conversion to Islam in order to become second or third wives of Saudi citizens just so they can move there permanently! You just have so little idea of what conditions there are actually like!
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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freetobeme
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spot;722431 wrote: Good lord... I *know* people who have accepted nominal conversion to Islam in order to become second or third wives of Saudi citizens just so they can move there permanently! You just have so little idea of what conditions there are actually like!
And you do !
And you do !
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freetobeme;722438 wrote: And you do !
That, at least in part, is my point.
That, at least in part, is my point.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Jester;722462 wrote: I don’t believe she was protesting in any way, she got in the car for a necessity, an errand as I understand the article.Not in the slightest. She met up with a former friend in his car by arrangement to take back some photos he had of her.
Jester;722464 wrote: I can hold up the US as one of the countries that tries its utmost to maintain freedom for all personshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7102054.stm !!!
Of all places on the planet to try to claim any effort goes toward "freedom for all"...
The US is notorious for its penal policy, its complete lack of care for those it incarcerates, the grotesque skew in demographics among the prison population
and the political system's unwillingness to look at alternatives. Saudi Arabia's a paragon of all the virtues by comparison. How you can hold your head up and say what you say without blushing baffles me, you sound totally indoctrinated with national pride to the extent that you reverse reality and seem not to even recognize that you do it.
Jester;722464 wrote: I can hold up the US as one of the countries that tries its utmost to maintain freedom for all personshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7102054.stm !!!
Of all places on the planet to try to claim any effort goes toward "freedom for all"...
The US is notorious for its penal policy, its complete lack of care for those it incarcerates, the grotesque skew in demographics among the prison population
and the political system's unwillingness to look at alternatives. Saudi Arabia's a paragon of all the virtues by comparison. How you can hold your head up and say what you say without blushing baffles me, you sound totally indoctrinated with national pride to the extent that you reverse reality and seem not to even recognize that you do it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
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Oh here we go again with national pride as if that's a bad thing. Maybe some other countries could do well by adopting our attitude. I am annoyed that every discussion turns into a comparison with the US. I would like to know what the UK is doing for Saudi women? How about Canada? Since these places are held up to us as something to aspire to I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is for a change.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
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Jester, why on earth would I be outraged at her receiving the penalty she should have expected for the crime she committed? Not a single woman or girl in Saudi Arabia is unaware of how terrible an offense it is to do what she did. It was not a necessity and there is no article written that implies that at all. You fabricate details to suit your needs and speaks poorly for every "fact" you have tried to introduce.
You insisted that a woman can not possible be anorexic in Saudi Arabia then when you find the article that says they had a case of it you switch to saying not many American women actually die of it. Forget bulemia and other weight loss issues that Western women battle every day. What is the relevance? You claim that Western women have it so great then act like they aren't dying for cultural reasons. Different reasons but more women die in the US from abuse and murder by a spouse or intimate partner than Saudi Arabia has to report.
You insisted that a woman can not possible be anorexic in Saudi Arabia then when you find the article that says they had a case of it you switch to saying not many American women actually die of it. Forget bulemia and other weight loss issues that Western women battle every day. What is the relevance? You claim that Western women have it so great then act like they aren't dying for cultural reasons. Different reasons but more women die in the US from abuse and murder by a spouse or intimate partner than Saudi Arabia has to report.
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drumbunny1
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RedGlitter;722471 wrote: Oh here we go again with national pride as if that's a bad thing. Maybe some other countries could do well by adopting our attitude. I am annoyed that every discussion turns into a comparison with the US. I would like to know what the UK is doing for Saudi women? How about Canada? Since these places are held up to us as something to aspire to I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is for a change.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
Thank you!!!
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
Thank you!!!
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RedGlitter;722471 wrote: Oh here we go again with national pride as if that's a bad thing. Maybe some other countries could do well by adopting our attitude. I am annoyed that every discussion turns into a comparison with the US. I would like to know what the UK is doing for Saudi women? How about Canada? Since these places are held up to us as something to aspire to I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is for a change.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
It's entirely relevant though. You started the thread because you seem to dislike certain methods of punishment and you disapprove of another country's law prohibiting unrelated people from being alone together. I drew attention to a comment you made earlier in relation to lashing as a punishment that "respect demands that you do not strike a woman". Would that same respect not also demand that you don't imprison a woman? That you don't execute a woman? Lashing's far less of a punishment than imprisonment or execution, both of which are prominent features of the US judicial system. You didn't make any response to that. I think an answer would be useful.
I once spent a splendid day with a couple of sisters who'd both married Saudi citizens (and at least nominally converted to Islam in order to do so) as second and fourth wives simply in order to move to Riyadh because they so liked the lifestyle there (and loved the Saudi men they married, come to that). Both were well-educated Europeans with degrees in science disciplines. Both had travelled extensively. Both had no problems recommending the actions they'd taken. Both were actually quite smug about how things had turned out for them. Neither considered themselves particularly odd or unusual. I mentioned them earlier as well, as a personal observation that living as a woman in Saudi Arabia isn't necessarily as bad as Jester paints. Nobody commented on that either.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
It's entirely relevant though. You started the thread because you seem to dislike certain methods of punishment and you disapprove of another country's law prohibiting unrelated people from being alone together. I drew attention to a comment you made earlier in relation to lashing as a punishment that "respect demands that you do not strike a woman". Would that same respect not also demand that you don't imprison a woman? That you don't execute a woman? Lashing's far less of a punishment than imprisonment or execution, both of which are prominent features of the US judicial system. You didn't make any response to that. I think an answer would be useful.
I once spent a splendid day with a couple of sisters who'd both married Saudi citizens (and at least nominally converted to Islam in order to do so) as second and fourth wives simply in order to move to Riyadh because they so liked the lifestyle there (and loved the Saudi men they married, come to that). Both were well-educated Europeans with degrees in science disciplines. Both had travelled extensively. Both had no problems recommending the actions they'd taken. Both were actually quite smug about how things had turned out for them. Neither considered themselves particularly odd or unusual. I mentioned them earlier as well, as a personal observation that living as a woman in Saudi Arabia isn't necessarily as bad as Jester paints. Nobody commented on that either.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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How can a reasonable discussion be had when you insist the woman did nothing wrong? She broke a well established law in her country. A law she knew existed, that she chose to break. That you don't approve of that law does not mean it doesn't exist.
It is terrible that she was raped. Her rapists were caught and punished as well. Justice was served as it was supposed to be all around... except for the damn lawyer making his client's case worse for her.
It is terrible that she was raped. Her rapists were caught and punished as well. Justice was served as it was supposed to be all around... except for the damn lawyer making his client's case worse for her.
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Jester;722478 wrote: I think there are some here who are anti government of any kind, they pick fault and seek to disrupt the course of nations and create anarchy throughout all governments.
Yes. You and RedGlitter.
For my part, I have been maintaining that the Saudi Arabian government is consistent and upholding their laws correctly, and that the people there should be allowed to live in their own way under their own government, whilst you both seem eager to tear them apart and make them into American Barbies. It's quite disgraceful really. No wonder the world trembles.
There is nothing wrong with nationalism or pride in any shape or form; it is good to temper nationalism with the admittance that perfection doesn’t lay at the feet of any nation on earth.
Then allow other countries to have their own sense of pride as well.
Yes. You and RedGlitter.
For my part, I have been maintaining that the Saudi Arabian government is consistent and upholding their laws correctly, and that the people there should be allowed to live in their own way under their own government, whilst you both seem eager to tear them apart and make them into American Barbies. It's quite disgraceful really. No wonder the world trembles.
There is nothing wrong with nationalism or pride in any shape or form; it is good to temper nationalism with the admittance that perfection doesn’t lay at the feet of any nation on earth.
Then allow other countries to have their own sense of pride as well.
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Jester;722464 wrote: Freedom is a universal concept for all, it’s not a decidedly western cultural view, the protection of women and children and rule of law that seeks justice equitably is the desire of all persons, unless of course they have the upper hand to keep their boot on someone else's neck. I am Jester, and I offer them the concept and ideal of freedom from the oppressive ways in which they live. Who are you to keep it from them and offer them neither hope nor help? I can hold up the US as one of the countries that tries its utmost to maintain freedom for all persons, the fact that we deal with violations of freedom when they are discovered is testimony to that. I actually don’t seek to impose my personal values on them in any fashion. I offer them hope that freedom can be obtained if they fight bodily for it, and are willing to die for it. If they were to come the US and desire to live under the same rules, except if they were forced while here by a member of their own family, then I would extend to them the freedom to do so without hesitation. As to your examples, there is far more tyranny and lack of justice in Saudi Arabia then there ever will be in the US. Do we sometimes have injustice, you bet we do and it’s as wrong here as it is anywhere else. As I posted earlier I’d welcome any woman who asked for asylum.
Rough translation - my way is the only way because it is mine.
Rough translation - my way is the only way because it is mine.
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RedGlitter;722471 wrote: Oh here we go again with national pride as if that's a bad thing. Maybe some other countries could do well by adopting our attitude. I am annoyed that every discussion turns into a comparison with the US. I would like to know what the UK is doing for Saudi women? How about Canada? Since these places are held up to us as something to aspire to I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is for a change.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
As I said before Red, the only reason the comparisons are with the US is because it is the US that is insisting its way is the only way - its not national pride, it's one man's arrogance.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
As I said before Red, the only reason the comparisons are with the US is because it is the US that is insisting its way is the only way - its not national pride, it's one man's arrogance.
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koan;722481 wrote: How can a reasonable discussion be had when you insist the woman did nothing wrong? She broke a well established law in her country. A law she knew existed, that she chose to break. That you don't approve of that law does not mean it doesn't exist.
It is terrible that she was raped. Her rapists were caught and punished as well. Justice was served as it was supposed to be all around... except for the damn lawyer making his client's case worse for her.
You live in a free country because people in the past have been prepared to stand up against laws they thought were unjust, from slavery to women's rights to even having the right to elect those who ruled over you. You choose how you live because of lawbreakers and those who stood with them against authority. Freedom isn't enshrined in law it's in that part of human nature that is prepared to put two fingers up to the face of authority and tell it to get stuffed. (or one if you're american, I'm sorry that gesture always seem to lack compared to the british version.) (which incidentally is not meant as an anti american comment, just an observation on my part).
The reality is SA is a tyrannical regime to which the west turns a blind eye because of oil and to the fact that SA is where all the money is coming from to fund islamic extremism throughout the world is glossed over while at the same time justifying invading Iraq because it was a tyrannical regime and backing up mushafaf because he's on our side even as he locks up the secular opposition and does deals with fundamentalists to keep power. Meanwhile we the happy voter let the bastards we elected away with it. (in the UK we can call our leaders bastards and get away with it, I suspect calling the saudi leader a bastard might be dangerous if I was in Saudi)
Realistically if this woman were to ask for asylum at a British or American embassy she would probably be handed back to keep the Saudi regime happy- justified because it's wrong to interfere in another country's legal system however appalling it might be and the happy voter let's them away with the hypocrisy of it all.
The west might need their oil but they need us to buy it from them it's a moot point where the real clout actually lies. best thing the west can do is develop alternative sources asap preferably before the stuff runs out altogether which it will eventually however much some would like to ignore the fact.
posted by red glitter
Oh here we go again with national pride as if that's a bad thing. Maybe some other countries could do well by adopting our attitude. I am annoyed that every discussion turns into a comparison with the US. I would like to know what the UK is doing for Saudi women? How about Canada? Since these places are held up to us as something to aspire to I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is for a change.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
Try and be more British in your attitude-as in who cares what a bunch of foreigners think. You'll notice very few of the UK posters get upset when the UK gets criticised. If you're right we'll agree with you-or not as the case may be without taking it personally. I get fed up as well and I'm not American. On the other hand I get fed up with americans that take even the most innocuous comments personally and as being necessarily anti American. There was one nutter that kept accusing me of being anti american. After numerous posts where she made the accusation she finally told me why she thought me anti american-because I didn't capitalise every time I wrote america. The fact I didn't other countries either seemed to elude her but we ended up amicably.
Bear in mind we stood alone against a regime trying to impose an extreme right wing, nationalistic, militaristic, fascist rule on europe. Extreme nationalism or patriotism and blind my country right or wrong mentalities make us nervous and it's very much a part of our psyche. You should see what we say about the french and germans in our press if you think some of the posts here anti-american we positively hate them. You have every right and reason to be proud of being american. Being british and in my case scots we have every sympathy for the nationalism of other countries. We just don't take it very seriously. Within our own country taking the **** out of the various nationalities is a national pastime. Spot for example is welsh. That alone is funny.
It is terrible that she was raped. Her rapists were caught and punished as well. Justice was served as it was supposed to be all around... except for the damn lawyer making his client's case worse for her.
You live in a free country because people in the past have been prepared to stand up against laws they thought were unjust, from slavery to women's rights to even having the right to elect those who ruled over you. You choose how you live because of lawbreakers and those who stood with them against authority. Freedom isn't enshrined in law it's in that part of human nature that is prepared to put two fingers up to the face of authority and tell it to get stuffed. (or one if you're american, I'm sorry that gesture always seem to lack compared to the british version.) (which incidentally is not meant as an anti american comment, just an observation on my part).
The reality is SA is a tyrannical regime to which the west turns a blind eye because of oil and to the fact that SA is where all the money is coming from to fund islamic extremism throughout the world is glossed over while at the same time justifying invading Iraq because it was a tyrannical regime and backing up mushafaf because he's on our side even as he locks up the secular opposition and does deals with fundamentalists to keep power. Meanwhile we the happy voter let the bastards we elected away with it. (in the UK we can call our leaders bastards and get away with it, I suspect calling the saudi leader a bastard might be dangerous if I was in Saudi)
Realistically if this woman were to ask for asylum at a British or American embassy she would probably be handed back to keep the Saudi regime happy- justified because it's wrong to interfere in another country's legal system however appalling it might be and the happy voter let's them away with the hypocrisy of it all.
The west might need their oil but they need us to buy it from them it's a moot point where the real clout actually lies. best thing the west can do is develop alternative sources asap preferably before the stuff runs out altogether which it will eventually however much some would like to ignore the fact.
posted by red glitter
Oh here we go again with national pride as if that's a bad thing. Maybe some other countries could do well by adopting our attitude. I am annoyed that every discussion turns into a comparison with the US. I would like to know what the UK is doing for Saudi women? How about Canada? Since these places are held up to us as something to aspire to I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is for a change.
Once again what could have been a good discussion has turned into how America should be ashamed of itself. It's old.
Try and be more British in your attitude-as in who cares what a bunch of foreigners think. You'll notice very few of the UK posters get upset when the UK gets criticised. If you're right we'll agree with you-or not as the case may be without taking it personally. I get fed up as well and I'm not American. On the other hand I get fed up with americans that take even the most innocuous comments personally and as being necessarily anti American. There was one nutter that kept accusing me of being anti american. After numerous posts where she made the accusation she finally told me why she thought me anti american-because I didn't capitalise every time I wrote america. The fact I didn't other countries either seemed to elude her but we ended up amicably.
Bear in mind we stood alone against a regime trying to impose an extreme right wing, nationalistic, militaristic, fascist rule on europe. Extreme nationalism or patriotism and blind my country right or wrong mentalities make us nervous and it's very much a part of our psyche. You should see what we say about the french and germans in our press if you think some of the posts here anti-american we positively hate them. You have every right and reason to be proud of being american. Being british and in my case scots we have every sympathy for the nationalism of other countries. We just don't take it very seriously. Within our own country taking the **** out of the various nationalities is a national pastime. Spot for example is welsh. That alone is funny.
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gmc;722507 wrote: You live in a free country because people in the past have been prepared to stand up against laws they thought were unjust, from slavery to women's rights to even having the right to elect those who ruled over you. You choose how you live because of lawbreakers and those who stood with them against authority. Freedom isn't enshrined in law it's in that part of human nature that is prepared to put two fingers up to the face of authority and tell it to get stuffed. (or one if you're american, I'm sorry that gesture always seem to lack compared to the british version.) (which incidentally is not meant as an anti american comment, just an observation on my part).
That's the whole point that I've been trying to make - we chose which laws we wanted to protest against. We did not have other ideologies thrust upon us.
Do you see the Saudis protesting? No, not because they are oppressed but because it is their way of life.
It is not for us to tell them they should be appalled, it is for them to decide that they no longer wish to live that way.
If and when they ever do, then I would support them. Until they do I have no right to tell them how to live their lives.
Do you see
That's the whole point that I've been trying to make - we chose which laws we wanted to protest against. We did not have other ideologies thrust upon us.
Do you see the Saudis protesting? No, not because they are oppressed but because it is their way of life.
It is not for us to tell them they should be appalled, it is for them to decide that they no longer wish to live that way.
If and when they ever do, then I would support them. Until they do I have no right to tell them how to live their lives.
Do you see
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Jester;722488 wrote: still you completely ignore what I think may be more heinous than the sentence for the victim, that one risks punishment for appealing the law. That is a fundamental right and the start of being able to change law to correct for progress.On a question of fact - and please treat this as an aside if you like - the defence's appeal wasn't against the verdict, it was against the sentences passed down in that case.
I'm utterly ignorant of US law but that sounds very much to me to be equivalent to an appeal to a sentencing review tribunal, not an appeal against sentence. RedGlitter's OP makes it quite clear that the lawyer wasn't appealing against conviction.
This is from the The Union Leader (Manchester NH) June 15, 2007 "Court appeal carries some risk":A three-judge panel is set to decide today whether Melanie Paquette Cooper was dealt too harsh a hand when she was sentenced to three to six years in state prison for lying to police about who killed her stepfather 22 years ago. The sentencing review board can reduce her original sentence. But it also can increase or affirm it. And there lies the risk of appealing a trial court's sentence to the sentencing review board. Just a fraction of the cases reviewed by the board since the practice began in 1975 resulted in time being chipped off an original sentence, statistics provided by the board show. Even fewer are increased. Most end with sentences left as is. "It's not without risk," said John Kacavas, a Manchester criminal defense attorney and former state homicide prosecutor.I'm not sure quite what "fundamental right" you're claiming here, nor how widespread you think it is across the world. Even if you were talking about an appeal court rather than a sentencing review tribunal in the UK there's no presumption that a defence application for appeal can't result in a stiffer sentence, but that's not as equivalent to what happened here as Melanie Paquette Cooper's review is.
I'm utterly ignorant of US law but that sounds very much to me to be equivalent to an appeal to a sentencing review tribunal, not an appeal against sentence. RedGlitter's OP makes it quite clear that the lawyer wasn't appealing against conviction.
This is from the The Union Leader (Manchester NH) June 15, 2007 "Court appeal carries some risk":A three-judge panel is set to decide today whether Melanie Paquette Cooper was dealt too harsh a hand when she was sentenced to three to six years in state prison for lying to police about who killed her stepfather 22 years ago. The sentencing review board can reduce her original sentence. But it also can increase or affirm it. And there lies the risk of appealing a trial court's sentence to the sentencing review board. Just a fraction of the cases reviewed by the board since the practice began in 1975 resulted in time being chipped off an original sentence, statistics provided by the board show. Even fewer are increased. Most end with sentences left as is. "It's not without risk," said John Kacavas, a Manchester criminal defense attorney and former state homicide prosecutor.I'm not sure quite what "fundamental right" you're claiming here, nor how widespread you think it is across the world. Even if you were talking about an appeal court rather than a sentencing review tribunal in the UK there's no presumption that a defence application for appeal can't result in a stiffer sentence, but that's not as equivalent to what happened here as Melanie Paquette Cooper's review is.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
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spot;722477 wrote: [Big Snip] You didn't make any response to that. I think an answer would be useful.
Morning. Answers coming as soon as I wake up a bit.
Morning. Answers coming as soon as I wake up a bit.
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RedGlitter;722538 wrote: Morning. Answers coming as soon as I wake up a bit.
Good morning - hope you're well and good :-6
Good morning - hope you're well and good :-6
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gmc;722507 wrote: Spot for example is welsh. That alone is funny.The misinformation flung on occasion around the Internet amazes me and this dreadful calumny can't be allowed to go unchallenged. I was born in Gloucestershire with all the duties, rights and appurtenances of a true-born Englishman, hence my supercilious nature and devastating charm. Bryn, on the other hand, was born in some godforsaken Black Mountains cottage hospital adjacent to his native coal-mining village and overlooking the soot-filled industrial landscape of Merthyr Tydfil, where he was promptly handed a daffodil and several leeks by his welcoming maternity nurse and granted the right to use thereafter the hallowed name of the most contentious Liberal Prime Minister ever to hail from Llanystumdwy.
Within our own country taking the **** out of the various nationalities is a national pastime? Damn right it is.
Within our own country taking the **** out of the various nationalities is a national pastime? Damn right it is.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
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Bryn Mawr;722542 wrote: Good morning - hope you're well and good :-6
Hi Bryn. I'm doing very well, thank you. I hope that you are too.
Hi Bryn. I'm doing very well, thank you. I hope that you are too.
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spot;722550 wrote: The misinformation flung on occasion around the Internet amazes me and this dreadful calumny can't be allowed to go unchallenged. I was born in Gloucestershire with all the duties, rights and appurtenances of a true-born Englishman, hence my supercilious nature and devastating charm. Bryn, on the other hand, was born in some godforsaken Black Mountains cottage hospital adjacent to his native coal-mining village and overlooking the soot-filled industrial landscape of Merthyr Tydfil, where he was promptly handed a daffodil and several leeks by his welcoming maternity nurse and granted the right to use thereafter the hallowed name of the most contentious Liberal Prime Minister ever to hail from Llanystumdwy.
Within our own country taking the **** out of the various nationalities is a national pastime? Damn right it is.
My abject apologies sir. I mistook the wee flag under your name for a welsh dragon. I have looked up brigstowe in an atlas and realise it is in fact near bristol. Thankfully it's less of an insult to mistake an englishman for a welshman than it is the other way round.
posted by red glitter
Morning. Answers coming as soon as I wake up a bit.
Good grief woman it's one o'clock in the afternoon! What were you doing last night?
Within our own country taking the **** out of the various nationalities is a national pastime? Damn right it is.
My abject apologies sir. I mistook the wee flag under your name for a welsh dragon. I have looked up brigstowe in an atlas and realise it is in fact near bristol. Thankfully it's less of an insult to mistake an englishman for a welshman than it is the other way round.
posted by red glitter
Morning. Answers coming as soon as I wake up a bit.
Good grief woman it's one o'clock in the afternoon! What were you doing last night?
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gmc;722592 wrote: My abject apologies sir. I mistook the wee flag under your name for a welsh dragon.
That dates back to anastrophe telling me I had no right to use the Union flag as I was a bitter wormwood disgrace to my country. There was then no flag of Saint George to switch to so, recalling that I'd lived in Wales briefly in my youth, I appropriated the red dragon instead. People are used to it now so I can scarcely change it after all this time.
That dates back to anastrophe telling me I had no right to use the Union flag as I was a bitter wormwood disgrace to my country. There was then no flag of Saint George to switch to so, recalling that I'd lived in Wales briefly in my youth, I appropriated the red dragon instead. People are used to it now so I can scarcely change it after all this time.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
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- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
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spot;722477 wrote: It's entirely relevant though. You started the thread because you seem to dislike certain methods of punishment and you disapprove of another country's law prohibiting unrelated people from being alone together. I drew attention to a comment you made earlier in relation to lashing as a punishment that "respect demands that you do not strike a woman". Would that same respect not also demand that you don't imprison a woman? That you don't execute a woman? Lashing's far less of a punishment than imprisonment or execution, both of which are prominent features of the US judicial system. You didn't make any response to that. I think an answer would be useful.
I once spent a splendid day with a couple of sisters who'd both married Saudi citizens (and at least nominally converted to Islam in order to do so) as second and fourth wives simply in order to move to Riyadh because they so liked the lifestyle there (and loved the Saudi men they married, come to that). Both were well-educated Europeans with degrees in science disciplines. Both had travelled extensively. Both had no problems recommending the actions they'd taken. Both were actually quite smug about how things had turned out for them. Neither considered themselves particularly odd or unusual. I mentioned them earlier as well, as a personal observation that living as a woman in Saudi Arabia isn't necessarily as bad as Jester paints. Nobody commented on that either.
I have to say it surprises me that my feelings were taken to be based on being American. I myself base them on being human. I am a free human being before I'm an American. I do dislike the Saudi law and I don't see what is wrong with being vocal about that. I find many of their laws repugnant. And of course other countries have that to say about the US, and they do say it quite bluntly and no one blinks an eye.
Your question about executing or imprisoning a woman is a valid one in light of what I had said. I'll take the easy one first. I don't think it's wrong to imprison a female criminal. I also don't think it's wrong to execute a female criminal. I know some will differ with me on that but that's my opinion. The way I grew up did not permit a man to hit a woman out of respect for women in general and for his own self respect. The code of decent ethics demands this. But if a woman kills someone coldly and is found guilty, all bets are off because the woman sold out her own self respect and no longer deserves any from anyone else. That still doesn't mean she's to be struck. You might be thinking "so Red it's okay to kill a woman but just don't hit her?" And crazy as it sounds I would have to say yes.
As far as I am concerned, this lashing business is the same as striking a woman. That's disgusting enough but for the caliber of "crime" she committed it's a pathetic joke. I think it should incense anyone who has an iota of civility or compassion.
I never said or implied that the woman was lashed for being raped. I am saying being violated and degraded by rape was punishment of its own and she needed no more done to her. I don't care that they think she committed a heinous crime, it's not by any reasonable standard and it should have been completely excused or at least dealt with in a proper manner. Beating someone is not proper, especially a woman.
Spot, you commented earlier about a certain country refusing to extradite US criminals because we'd give them the death penalty. This in the effort (blackmail?) to prevent a policy of ours they find abhorrent. What then is the difference between that happening and the US or anyone else simply criticizing another country??
I once spent a splendid day with a couple of sisters who'd both married Saudi citizens (and at least nominally converted to Islam in order to do so) as second and fourth wives simply in order to move to Riyadh because they so liked the lifestyle there (and loved the Saudi men they married, come to that). Both were well-educated Europeans with degrees in science disciplines. Both had travelled extensively. Both had no problems recommending the actions they'd taken. Both were actually quite smug about how things had turned out for them. Neither considered themselves particularly odd or unusual. I mentioned them earlier as well, as a personal observation that living as a woman in Saudi Arabia isn't necessarily as bad as Jester paints. Nobody commented on that either.
I have to say it surprises me that my feelings were taken to be based on being American. I myself base them on being human. I am a free human being before I'm an American. I do dislike the Saudi law and I don't see what is wrong with being vocal about that. I find many of their laws repugnant. And of course other countries have that to say about the US, and they do say it quite bluntly and no one blinks an eye.
Your question about executing or imprisoning a woman is a valid one in light of what I had said. I'll take the easy one first. I don't think it's wrong to imprison a female criminal. I also don't think it's wrong to execute a female criminal. I know some will differ with me on that but that's my opinion. The way I grew up did not permit a man to hit a woman out of respect for women in general and for his own self respect. The code of decent ethics demands this. But if a woman kills someone coldly and is found guilty, all bets are off because the woman sold out her own self respect and no longer deserves any from anyone else. That still doesn't mean she's to be struck. You might be thinking "so Red it's okay to kill a woman but just don't hit her?" And crazy as it sounds I would have to say yes.
As far as I am concerned, this lashing business is the same as striking a woman. That's disgusting enough but for the caliber of "crime" she committed it's a pathetic joke. I think it should incense anyone who has an iota of civility or compassion.
I never said or implied that the woman was lashed for being raped. I am saying being violated and degraded by rape was punishment of its own and she needed no more done to her. I don't care that they think she committed a heinous crime, it's not by any reasonable standard and it should have been completely excused or at least dealt with in a proper manner. Beating someone is not proper, especially a woman.
Spot, you commented earlier about a certain country refusing to extradite US criminals because we'd give them the death penalty. This in the effort (blackmail?) to prevent a policy of ours they find abhorrent. What then is the difference between that happening and the US or anyone else simply criticizing another country??