Jester;724257 wrote: We have spent and will spend billions more in that country than we will ever get in return. Enjoy your view of the war.
"We"?
The profiting plunderer's not the USA, it's the profiting plunderers who currently own the White House administration and the source of most of their plunder is US taxes, not Iraq. Man this is war a go-go. There's plenty good money to be made supplying the army with the tools of the trade. Nobody here has an argument with the USA, just its stinking government - the two are quite separate animals.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Kathy Ellen
- Posts: 10569
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Hi Jester,
Welcome to the Garden:-6 It's nice that you're here. But, you did seem to come into the Garden with a bit of a chip on your shoulder, and we didn't know you.
Have a drink on me will ya.....
Welcome to the Garden:-6 It's nice that you're here. But, you did seem to come into the Garden with a bit of a chip on your shoulder, and we didn't know you.
Have a drink on me will ya.....
-
Kathy Ellen
- Posts: 10569
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Welcome home Jester:-6
May you find peace, happiness and good conversations in the garden. It's good to have you home.
May you find peace, happiness and good conversations in the garden. It's good to have you home.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Welcome back Jester. I didn't see you as having a chip on your shoulder. I saw you as a person that felt passionately about the topic just as Spot and Bryn do. It just so happens you have a different opinion than they do.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
I've got my punching bag back!! 
Jester,
I said I looked forward to disagreeing with you and now I mean it twice as much. As always, we argue but we both believe what we say and say it with passion.
Jester,
I said I looked forward to disagreeing with you and now I mean it twice as much. As always, we argue but we both believe what we say and say it with passion.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Jester, you don't owe me any apologies. I'm happy to know you are who you are. I thought Jester was a breath of fresh air and I'm not disappointed in the least. Glad you're here. Welcome!! :yh_hugs
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Hi Jester and Welcome back to FG
Can I just add that Debates are all about using argument and persuasion to convince other people that your views are right.
You should:
Research the subject, so that you have facts to back up your views.
Use logic to develop your case and make your points.
Think about what the counter arguments are likely to be, so that you can work out your case in advance.
Be open minded and prepared to change your opinion.
Don't get drawn into personal attacks.
Stick to the subject being debated.
This is your opportunity to debate the issues that matter to you with people from all corners of the world and still remain friendly.
Hope you dont mind me adding that but I enjoy reading the debates but not when they turn slightly ugly.
Can I just add that Debates are all about using argument and persuasion to convince other people that your views are right.
You should:
Research the subject, so that you have facts to back up your views.
Use logic to develop your case and make your points.
Think about what the counter arguments are likely to be, so that you can work out your case in advance.
Be open minded and prepared to change your opinion.
Don't get drawn into personal attacks.
Stick to the subject being debated.
This is your opportunity to debate the issues that matter to you with people from all corners of the world and still remain friendly.
Hope you dont mind me adding that but I enjoy reading the debates but not when they turn slightly ugly.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
That may be accurate Chezzie but it's scarcely kind. The Jester has forgotten more about real life than I ever knew to start with, he's one of the few people on the Internet that I deeply respect and listen to intently. Nothing he writes is ill-considered or abusive, it's a matter of great joy to see him here.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Im so sorry if you interpreted my post as being unkind, that wasnt my intention at all..My post also wasnt intended for one person, it was a generalisation of some of the posts I have read since joining here..Think ill keep my big gob shut lol...Sorry once again
More on Saudi Rape Victim
An excellent article about this case came to my attention.
If you read through it, you'll see that they are a country of entirely reasonable people just like you and I. Interviews with educated women from S Arabia (yes, they exist), discussion of how S Arabians view this trial, and their expectations of the future.
article
If you read through it, you'll see that they are a country of entirely reasonable people just like you and I. Interviews with educated women from S Arabia (yes, they exist), discussion of how S Arabians view this trial, and their expectations of the future.
article
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Jester;724298 wrote: No it's the same animal. Nobody here will agree with me, there’s no point in discussing it; you three were right on track with what I’ve experienced on other discussion boards, straight to ridicule! After the last board I should have realized and scratched ‘war on terror’ off my discussion list, but I was lured in by answering the question Bryn Mawr posted. Very nice set up, you three do this often? I know exactly how this will go already. In the end there will be no agreement and you three will have continued to ridicule me throughout the process.
No ridicule but all I ask is that you justify the moral and legal basis for the invasion.
To me, for one country to invade another which poses no clear and immediate threat to them is totally and utterly unacceptable.
No ridicule but all I ask is that you justify the moral and legal basis for the invasion.
To me, for one country to invade another which poses no clear and immediate threat to them is totally and utterly unacceptable.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Hiya Jester, nice to meet you too hun and hope you stick around:-6
More on Saudi Rape Victim
freetobeme;721847 wrote: Hmmm, you make a valid point, she did knowingly break the law, but what a law. I wish we could do something for women's rights over there, but we can't...let us make sure that none of these cultural norms are imported to N. American. We might be a multicultural society but not all cultures or beliefs are acceptable.
visit me here
OH free,
just wait........
These PC beliefs are headed our way!!!!!
Little by little..........
Just look at spots point of view and how bad he feels the USA is as opposed to Saudi laws!!!!!!!
DRIP
DRIP
DRIP
visit me here
OH free,
just wait........
These PC beliefs are headed our way!!!!!
Little by little..........
Just look at spots point of view and how bad he feels the USA is as opposed to Saudi laws!!!!!!!
DRIP
DRIP
DRIP
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
More on Saudi Rape Victim
koan;721853 wrote: (edit cut by BTS) I support spot's point of view. They know the values and rules of their society. This woman by committing what may seem like an innocent act has brought shame to her husband before they even started living together. It's a terrible thing that she did. Completely avoidable and irresponsible of her.
koan??????
I know you don't REALLY believe this is fair.
I have seen your liberal leaning posts and you believe in a womens right, whether it be in Canada, USA, or Saudi Arabia.
So you are saying you agree with this law and punishment?
koan??????
I know you don't REALLY believe this is fair.
I have seen your liberal leaning posts and you believe in a womens right, whether it be in Canada, USA, or Saudi Arabia.
So you are saying you agree with this law and punishment?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
More on Saudi Rape Victim
reposting article that no one seemed to bother reading:
article
Saudi women asked about the case cautioned that there may be circumstances about the woman's behavior that have not been publicized that could bear on the verdict.
"Who knows what happened? It depends on the situation," said Haneen Fatani, a 21-year-old executive assistant at the Saudi Hollandi Bank.
King Abdullah launched a major reform of the Saudi judicial system this year that curbs the influence of the religious leadership, and some Saudis say the publicity surrounding the Qatif girl case is related to an ongoing struggle between monarchy and mosque.
Ms. Fatani said she takes pride in the achievements of Saudi women. "Times have changed completely" since her mother was her age, she said.
"In my mother's generation, of 30 women, maybe two or three were working," she said. "Now for each 30, 10 or 15 are working. Most of my girl friends are working."
Thirty years ago, as Saudi women started entering the workforce, the country's religious mores demanded sexual segregation in offices and academic settings. Ms. Fatani said that has ended at her bank, although there are still separate entrances and serving areas for women using retail bank branches.
Dr. Daghistani, who is 59, said segregation still applies in the college of education at King Saud University. Classes are segregated, and teachers have to meet over the Internet or by speakerphone.
"It's ridiculous," she said. "They can meet together in the college of medicine, but not us. Sometimes you cannot hear what people are saying, and it delays the whole process of education."
Raneem al-Blaihed, an intern at a Riyadh hospital, said the Saudi medical community works with little regard to the segregation practiced elsewhere.
"We're completely mixed in school and in the hospital," she said. "Where I work, in the emergency room, I see men and women patients. There's no difference."
Her friend Najla al-Turki, who is 24, laughed at the idea that putting an unrelated man and a woman together was an invitation to improper behavior.
"There are all kinds of people in Saudi Arabia, just like there are all kinds of people in America," she said. "You have debates about gay marriage. We have debates like this."
Someday soon, Ms. Turki said, she expects to get a Saudi driver's license.
article
Saudi women asked about the case cautioned that there may be circumstances about the woman's behavior that have not been publicized that could bear on the verdict.
"Who knows what happened? It depends on the situation," said Haneen Fatani, a 21-year-old executive assistant at the Saudi Hollandi Bank.
King Abdullah launched a major reform of the Saudi judicial system this year that curbs the influence of the religious leadership, and some Saudis say the publicity surrounding the Qatif girl case is related to an ongoing struggle between monarchy and mosque.
Ms. Fatani said she takes pride in the achievements of Saudi women. "Times have changed completely" since her mother was her age, she said.
"In my mother's generation, of 30 women, maybe two or three were working," she said. "Now for each 30, 10 or 15 are working. Most of my girl friends are working."
Thirty years ago, as Saudi women started entering the workforce, the country's religious mores demanded sexual segregation in offices and academic settings. Ms. Fatani said that has ended at her bank, although there are still separate entrances and serving areas for women using retail bank branches.
Dr. Daghistani, who is 59, said segregation still applies in the college of education at King Saud University. Classes are segregated, and teachers have to meet over the Internet or by speakerphone.
"It's ridiculous," she said. "They can meet together in the college of medicine, but not us. Sometimes you cannot hear what people are saying, and it delays the whole process of education."
Raneem al-Blaihed, an intern at a Riyadh hospital, said the Saudi medical community works with little regard to the segregation practiced elsewhere.
"We're completely mixed in school and in the hospital," she said. "Where I work, in the emergency room, I see men and women patients. There's no difference."
Her friend Najla al-Turki, who is 24, laughed at the idea that putting an unrelated man and a woman together was an invitation to improper behavior.
"There are all kinds of people in Saudi Arabia, just like there are all kinds of people in America," she said. "You have debates about gay marriage. We have debates like this."
Someday soon, Ms. Turki said, she expects to get a Saudi driver's license.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
koan;725061 wrote: reposting article that no one seemed to bother reading:
I read and STILL ask......
Do you agree with this law and punishment?
My reply was not to this article tho, it was to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by koan
(edit cut by BTS) I support spot's point of view. They know the values and rules of their society. This woman by committing what may seem like an innocent act has brought shame to her husband before they even started living together. It's a terrible thing that she did. Completely avoidable and irresponsible of her.
Do you stand by that statement?
I read and STILL ask......
Do you agree with this law and punishment?
My reply was not to this article tho, it was to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by koan
(edit cut by BTS) I support spot's point of view. They know the values and rules of their society. This woman by committing what may seem like an innocent act has brought shame to her husband before they even started living together. It's a terrible thing that she did. Completely avoidable and irresponsible of her.
Do you stand by that statement?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
More on Saudi Rape Victim
BTS;725068 wrote: I read and STILL ask......
Do you agree with this law and punishment?
My reply was not to this article tho, it was to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by koan
(edit cut by BTS) I support spot's point of view. They know the values and rules of their society. This woman by committing what may seem like an innocent act has brought shame to her husband before they even started living together. It's a terrible thing that she did. Completely avoidable and irresponsible of her.
Do you stand by that statement?
ok. I didn't see that when I reposted the article.
Jester, I'm looking forward to your reply as it counter just about everything you said as fact about their society.
BTS,
Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied. I have relatives who are Muslim and know why they believe that is a good law.
I've even thought about how it might improve my life if I follow the same rule, though I'm not about to start wearing a hijab or joining any mosque.
I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere. If she doesn't like her religion she should change it. Women there can study abroad. All she has to do is leave and not come back.
Do you agree with this law and punishment?
My reply was not to this article tho, it was to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by koan
(edit cut by BTS) I support spot's point of view. They know the values and rules of their society. This woman by committing what may seem like an innocent act has brought shame to her husband before they even started living together. It's a terrible thing that she did. Completely avoidable and irresponsible of her.
Do you stand by that statement?
ok. I didn't see that when I reposted the article.
Jester, I'm looking forward to your reply as it counter just about everything you said as fact about their society.
BTS,
Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied. I have relatives who are Muslim and know why they believe that is a good law.
I've even thought about how it might improve my life if I follow the same rule, though I'm not about to start wearing a hijab or joining any mosque.
I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere. If she doesn't like her religion she should change it. Women there can study abroad. All she has to do is leave and not come back.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
More on Saudi Rape Victim
koan;725075 wrote: ok. I didn't see that when I reposted the article.
Jester, I'm looking forward to your reply as it counter just about everything you said as fact about their society.
BTS,
Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied. I have relatives who are Muslim and know why they believe that is a good law.
I've even thought about how it might improve my life if I follow the same rule, though I'm not about to start wearing a hijab or joining any mosque.
I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere. If she doesn't like her religion she should change it. Women there can study abroad. All she has to do is leave and not come back.
Wow. As if that's really an actual choice. Can't be in this country unless you are of this religion and you don't like it, you can abandon your family!
You're saying they've come a long way. I'm saying they've much farther to go.
Jester, I'm looking forward to your reply as it counter just about everything you said as fact about their society.
BTS,
Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied. I have relatives who are Muslim and know why they believe that is a good law.
I've even thought about how it might improve my life if I follow the same rule, though I'm not about to start wearing a hijab or joining any mosque.
I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere. If she doesn't like her religion she should change it. Women there can study abroad. All she has to do is leave and not come back.
Wow. As if that's really an actual choice. Can't be in this country unless you are of this religion and you don't like it, you can abandon your family!
You're saying they've come a long way. I'm saying they've much farther to go.
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
More on Saudi Rape Victim
RedGlitter;725113 wrote: Wow. As if that's really an actual choice. Can't be in this country unless you are of this religion and you don't like it, you can abandon your family!
You're saying they've come a long way. I'm saying they've much farther to go.
She didn't/doesn't have a choice, she cannot convert if she wanted to. This is one woman who certainly deserves refugee status if she ever wanted to claim it. It seems political correctness runs so far as to agreeing with this barbaric sentence.
find me here
You're saying they've come a long way. I'm saying they've much farther to go.
She didn't/doesn't have a choice, she cannot convert if she wanted to. This is one woman who certainly deserves refugee status if she ever wanted to claim it. It seems political correctness runs so far as to agreeing with this barbaric sentence.
find me here
senior's politics and discussion
More on Saudi Rape Victim
I do find this term "Political Correctness" abusive. Who uses it except people who want to criticize a point of view? I don't regard myself as Politically Correct, if anyone asked me for a label describing my core attitude in political terms it would be Communist.
Anyway - "cannot convert if she wanted to" - that seems to be a common assumption. I can't, for example, find any instance of anyone in Saudi Arabia being executed for apostacy. I found one allegation for 1993 but no evidence that it was based on fact. I'm sure we could throw together instances of people suffering for their beliefs after conversion at various times in various countries, either from the authorities or from their family and social circle. I'm not at all sure how it fits in with the circumstances we're discussing.
Anyway - "cannot convert if she wanted to" - that seems to be a common assumption. I can't, for example, find any instance of anyone in Saudi Arabia being executed for apostacy. I found one allegation for 1993 but no evidence that it was based on fact. I'm sure we could throw together instances of people suffering for their beliefs after conversion at various times in various countries, either from the authorities or from their family and social circle. I'm not at all sure how it fits in with the circumstances we're discussing.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Amesty International reports that people have been executed in Saudi Arabia for apostasy as recently as 1992, and for "magic and witchcraft" as recently as 1996.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/en ... UDI+ARABIA
However, the death sentence has not been imposed for apostasy in several years. Instead, convicted apostates have been sentenced to as many as 300 lashes.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35507.htm
Fortunately for this gal, world opinion is on her side and is rallying around this particular victim of fanaticism. Let us sincerely hope the sentence is overturned.
Either way this gal is dead, if the lashings don't kill her I'll bet she will some how disappear as she has 'disonoured her family'
find me here
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/en ... UDI+ARABIA
However, the death sentence has not been imposed for apostasy in several years. Instead, convicted apostates have been sentenced to as many as 300 lashes.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35507.htm
Fortunately for this gal, world opinion is on her side and is rallying around this particular victim of fanaticism. Let us sincerely hope the sentence is overturned.
Either way this gal is dead, if the lashings don't kill her I'll bet she will some how disappear as she has 'disonoured her family'
find me here
senior's politics and discussion
More on Saudi Rape Victim
koan;725075 wrote:
BTS,
Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied. I have relatives who are Muslim and know why they believe that is a good law.
I've even thought about how it might improve my life if I follow the same rule, though I'm not about to start wearing a hijab or joining any mosque.
I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere. If she doesn't like her religion she should change it. Women there can study abroad. All she has to do is leave and not come back.
So then, it is OK to mix religion and law?
Is that not what they are doing in your own words?
"Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied."
"I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere."
Here, in my opinion are some PRETTY horrible laws you seem to be supporting :
From wikpedia
In the legal system, women face discrimination as the criminal laws of Saudi Arabia adhere to strict Islamic precepts. An example of this is the requirements for testifying in criminal proceedings; The witness must be deemed sane, the age of an adult, and a Muslim. Non-Muslims may not testify in criminal court. Women may not testify unless it is a personal matter that did not occur in the sight of men. The testimony of a woman is not regarded as fact but as presumption. The reasons women are forbidden to testify in proceedings are (quote):[10][11]
Women are much more emotional than men and will, as a result of their emotions, distort their testimony.
Women do not participate in public life, so they will not be capable of understanding what they observe.
Women are dominated completely by men, who by the grace of God are deemed superior; therefore, women will give testimony according to what the last man told them.
Women are forgetful, and their testimony cannot be considered reliable.As a result of these laws women are particularly vulnerable in cases of assault and/or rape, as their testimony is treated as a presumption, while that of their attackers is accepted as fact. In some cases, victims of sexual assault are punished on the grounds that they should not be alone with unrelated males. [12] Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads in large cities. However, some do so on rural roads illegally.[citation needed] Women are allowed to fly aircraft, though they must be chauffeured to the airport.[13] Education, although limited, has become an important aspect. Religious police enforce a modest code of dress; foreign women are also expected to wear abaya, violators may face caning, harassment or fines. There are numerous legal restrictions of what kind of jobs women can do (as to prevent their direct contact with men).
Saudi Arabia is one of a number of countries where courts continue to impose corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and lashings for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. The number of lashes is not clearly prescribed by law and is varied according to the discretion of judges, and ranges from dozens of lashes to several thousand, usually applied over a period of weeks or months. The person administering the lashes is required to keep a Qur'an under the armpit of the arm with which he delivers the blows so as to limit the force of the strike. In 2002, the United Nations Committee against Torture criticized Saudi Arabia over the amputations and floggings it carries out under its interpretation of Sharia. The Saudi delegation responded defending "legal traditions" held since the inception of Islam 1400 years ago and rejected interference in its legal system.
Saudi Arabia also engages in capital punishment, including public executions by beheading and stoning. While some are also executed in private by firing squad, many executions are popular public attractions. Beheading is the punishment for murderers, rapists, drug traffickers and armed robbers, according to strict interpretation of Islamic law.
In 2005, there were 191 executions, in 2006 there were 38 and as of July 2007 there were already 102 including 3 women. A spokesman for Saudi Arabia's National Society for Human Rights has said that numbers of executions are rising because crime rates are rising, that prisoners are treated humanely, and that the beheadings deter crime, saying, ""Allah, our creator, knows best what's good for his people...Should we just think of and preserve the rights of the murderer and not think of the rights of others?" [2]
Individuals accused of crimes are not provided with representation, and according to Amnesty International, some defendants are convicted based on confessions obtained under duress, torture or deception. In 1997, Human Rights Watch examined the case of Abd al-Karim Mara`i al-Naqshabandi, who was executed after being convicted of practicing witchcraft against his employer. The organization concluded that the Saudi legal system "fails to provide minimum due process guarantees and offers myriad opportunities for well-connected individuals to manipulate the system to their advantage."Saudi Arabia — Flawed Justice. Human rights Watch. Retrieved on 2007-08-21. (see summary section)
BTS,
Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied. I have relatives who are Muslim and know why they believe that is a good law.
I've even thought about how it might improve my life if I follow the same rule, though I'm not about to start wearing a hijab or joining any mosque.
I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere. If she doesn't like her religion she should change it. Women there can study abroad. All she has to do is leave and not come back.
So then, it is OK to mix religion and law?
Is that not what they are doing in your own words?
"Yes. I stand by that statement regarding a woman who has sworn to follow the Koran and belongs to an Islamic sect that forbids men and women to mingle unaccompanied."
"I believe that when people swear themselves to a religion like that, they had damn well mean it and be sincere."
Here, in my opinion are some PRETTY horrible laws you seem to be supporting :
From wikpedia
In the legal system, women face discrimination as the criminal laws of Saudi Arabia adhere to strict Islamic precepts. An example of this is the requirements for testifying in criminal proceedings; The witness must be deemed sane, the age of an adult, and a Muslim. Non-Muslims may not testify in criminal court. Women may not testify unless it is a personal matter that did not occur in the sight of men. The testimony of a woman is not regarded as fact but as presumption. The reasons women are forbidden to testify in proceedings are (quote):[10][11]
Women are much more emotional than men and will, as a result of their emotions, distort their testimony.
Women do not participate in public life, so they will not be capable of understanding what they observe.
Women are dominated completely by men, who by the grace of God are deemed superior; therefore, women will give testimony according to what the last man told them.
Women are forgetful, and their testimony cannot be considered reliable.As a result of these laws women are particularly vulnerable in cases of assault and/or rape, as their testimony is treated as a presumption, while that of their attackers is accepted as fact. In some cases, victims of sexual assault are punished on the grounds that they should not be alone with unrelated males. [12] Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads in large cities. However, some do so on rural roads illegally.[citation needed] Women are allowed to fly aircraft, though they must be chauffeured to the airport.[13] Education, although limited, has become an important aspect. Religious police enforce a modest code of dress; foreign women are also expected to wear abaya, violators may face caning, harassment or fines. There are numerous legal restrictions of what kind of jobs women can do (as to prevent their direct contact with men).
Saudi Arabia is one of a number of countries where courts continue to impose corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and lashings for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. The number of lashes is not clearly prescribed by law and is varied according to the discretion of judges, and ranges from dozens of lashes to several thousand, usually applied over a period of weeks or months. The person administering the lashes is required to keep a Qur'an under the armpit of the arm with which he delivers the blows so as to limit the force of the strike. In 2002, the United Nations Committee against Torture criticized Saudi Arabia over the amputations and floggings it carries out under its interpretation of Sharia. The Saudi delegation responded defending "legal traditions" held since the inception of Islam 1400 years ago and rejected interference in its legal system.
Saudi Arabia also engages in capital punishment, including public executions by beheading and stoning. While some are also executed in private by firing squad, many executions are popular public attractions. Beheading is the punishment for murderers, rapists, drug traffickers and armed robbers, according to strict interpretation of Islamic law.
In 2005, there were 191 executions, in 2006 there were 38 and as of July 2007 there were already 102 including 3 women. A spokesman for Saudi Arabia's National Society for Human Rights has said that numbers of executions are rising because crime rates are rising, that prisoners are treated humanely, and that the beheadings deter crime, saying, ""Allah, our creator, knows best what's good for his people...Should we just think of and preserve the rights of the murderer and not think of the rights of others?" [2]
Individuals accused of crimes are not provided with representation, and according to Amnesty International, some defendants are convicted based on confessions obtained under duress, torture or deception. In 1997, Human Rights Watch examined the case of Abd al-Karim Mara`i al-Naqshabandi, who was executed after being convicted of practicing witchcraft against his employer. The organization concluded that the Saudi legal system "fails to provide minimum due process guarantees and offers myriad opportunities for well-connected individuals to manipulate the system to their advantage."Saudi Arabia — Flawed Justice. Human rights Watch. Retrieved on 2007-08-21. (see summary section)
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Like the woman in the article said, "You have debates about gay marriage. We have debates like this."
I respect their right to govern their own country.
btw, lashing sentences have often not been carried out in Saudi Arabia.
International eyes watching them could actually end up making them feel like they have to follow through in this case.
I respect their right to govern their own country.
btw, lashing sentences have often not been carried out in Saudi Arabia.
International eyes watching them could actually end up making them feel like they have to follow through in this case.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Just out of curiosity, Koan dand Spot, do you both support FGM in other countries as well, since it is their own business and not a human rights issue? 
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Is there a law regarding that?
There are very few laws I actually support. Your use of the word "support" is sketchy in regards to my attitude.
Do you "support" male genital mutilation?
There are very few laws I actually support. Your use of the word "support" is sketchy in regards to my attitude.
Do you "support" male genital mutilation?
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
More on Saudi Rape Victim
No I don't. And you're dancing around t his issue. I will rephrase it.
Do you have tolerance for and/or agree with the religious practice of FGM being as it is a part of their culture?
Do you have tolerance for and/or agree with the religious practice of FGM being as it is a part of their culture?
More on Saudi Rape Victim
RedGlitter;725289 wrote: No I don't. And you're dancing around t his issue. I will rephrase it.
Do you have tolerance for and/or agree with the religious practice of FGM being as it is a part of their culture?
FGM is prevalent in Africa. The majority of Muslims do not approve of or practice FGM according to the articles I've read on the subject. Would you like to switch the subject to Africans?
Do you have tolerance for and/or agree with the religious practice of FGM being as it is a part of their culture?
FGM is prevalent in Africa. The majority of Muslims do not approve of or practice FGM according to the articles I've read on the subject. Would you like to switch the subject to Africans?
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
More on Saudi Rape Victim
koan;725295 wrote: FGM is prevalent in Africa. The majority of Muslims do not approve of or practice FGM according to the articles I've read on the subject. Would you like to switch the subject to Africans?
No I wouldn't. I'd like to compare the two issues. You are big on human rights, or at least that's what I've seen you post about and FGM although not a secular law, is a religious and cultural one of sorts. I wasn't implying Muslims practice FGM. I was asking, as I am now, whether or not you turn a blind eye to FGM as "part of their culture" and accept it the way you do lash punishment and other oppressive Saudi laws. Can I get a straight answer?
No I wouldn't. I'd like to compare the two issues. You are big on human rights, or at least that's what I've seen you post about and FGM although not a secular law, is a religious and cultural one of sorts. I wasn't implying Muslims practice FGM. I was asking, as I am now, whether or not you turn a blind eye to FGM as "part of their culture" and accept it the way you do lash punishment and other oppressive Saudi laws. Can I get a straight answer?
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
More on Saudi Rape Victim
FGM is practiced in parts of Africa, and elsewhere in the world, it's not a pretty read
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/EN ... of=ENG-2AF
If one supports lashing etc. in S.A. because it is their law and their practice, then why should we work to eradicate FGM, after all it's part of their culture, why should we interfere. All cultures are equal are they not these days?
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/EN ... of=ENG-2AF
If one supports lashing etc. in S.A. because it is their law and their practice, then why should we work to eradicate FGM, after all it's part of their culture, why should we interfere. All cultures are equal are they not these days?
senior's politics and discussion
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Where do you find evidence that it is a religious or cultural law?
In Africa, where it is more prevalent, they have started passing laws to ban it.
The practice predates Islam, has been practiced by a wide range of cultural groups including Christians and a Jewish sect, has been given many reasons, one of them being for sanitary issues. Male genital mutilation is done for much the same reasons. The people I know who have had their sons mutilated gave the reason being that they wanted them to look the same as their father... purely aesthetic.
Is there some cause fighting to stop male genital mutilation in all parts of the world?
My roommate, when in Africa, was asked to video record the mutilation of one of the boys at his coming of age circumcision. The family and the boy being mutilated thought of it as a very proud moment. During and after the procedure, the boy had to sit and show no pain and allow people to touch his bleeding appendage. My friend was horrified watching it but said nothing as he realised that it was a very important ceremony that everyone was pleased about. I would likely have filmed it for them as well even though, if I had a son, I wouldn't have wanted him to go through the same thing.
Personally, there are other causes I devote my time to. I am against any form of unnecessary surgery, including hysterectomies that are performed in large quantities without sufficient reason. I have so far not joined any group of people campaigning against doctors or circumcision of either gender.
In Africa, where it is more prevalent, they have started passing laws to ban it.
The practice predates Islam, has been practiced by a wide range of cultural groups including Christians and a Jewish sect, has been given many reasons, one of them being for sanitary issues. Male genital mutilation is done for much the same reasons. The people I know who have had their sons mutilated gave the reason being that they wanted them to look the same as their father... purely aesthetic.
Is there some cause fighting to stop male genital mutilation in all parts of the world?
My roommate, when in Africa, was asked to video record the mutilation of one of the boys at his coming of age circumcision. The family and the boy being mutilated thought of it as a very proud moment. During and after the procedure, the boy had to sit and show no pain and allow people to touch his bleeding appendage. My friend was horrified watching it but said nothing as he realised that it was a very important ceremony that everyone was pleased about. I would likely have filmed it for them as well even though, if I had a son, I wouldn't have wanted him to go through the same thing.
Personally, there are other causes I devote my time to. I am against any form of unnecessary surgery, including hysterectomies that are performed in large quantities without sufficient reason. I have so far not joined any group of people campaigning against doctors or circumcision of either gender.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
The use of the word "support" is very misleading here. One doesn't have to support something to take the position of allowing countries to regulate their own affairs.
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
More on Saudi Rape Victim
So we should not interfere or take up the cause of FGM (or male mutiliation) because it would interfering? So we stand by and do nothing, should Amnesty int. stay out of it, should we be completely silent while women are stoned to death, lashed and mutiliated etc. etc. because it would be interfering?
By those lights, we should not go into Darfur or any other country even as U.N. peace keepers because that would not be allowing that country to regulate their own affairs. Do you believe Canada should be part of such a U.N. force and put our soldiers in harm's way there?
Should Canada get out of the Responsibility to Protect Doctrine, should we stay silent to all the abuses in the world because we should allow countries to regulate themselves, and should Amnesty Int. stay quietbecause something is "part of their culture" .
find me here
By those lights, we should not go into Darfur or any other country even as U.N. peace keepers because that would not be allowing that country to regulate their own affairs. Do you believe Canada should be part of such a U.N. force and put our soldiers in harm's way there?
Should Canada get out of the Responsibility to Protect Doctrine, should we stay silent to all the abuses in the world because we should allow countries to regulate themselves, and should Amnesty Int. stay quietbecause something is "part of their culture" .
find me here
senior's politics and discussion
More on Saudi Rape Victim
It is entirely more useful to take up a cause where citizens are calling for outside help. When the Muslim women of Saudi Arabia ask us to save them, the situation would become much different.
Should the United States allow Canada to invade to stop the death penalty from being carried out? Laugh it off because we'd never succeed but if that threat existed, would the US eliminate the death penalty or prepare to fight?
Should the United States allow Canada to invade to stop the death penalty from being carried out? Laugh it off because we'd never succeed but if that threat existed, would the US eliminate the death penalty or prepare to fight?
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Back to the subject of rape...
15. In one study, women gave the following reasons for not reporting incidents of sexual assault:
* belief that the police could do nothing about it (50%)
* concern about the attitude of both police and the courts towards sexual assault (44%)
* fear of another assault by the offender (33%)
* fear and shame (64%)
* Women who have been sexually assaulted often fear that if they report a sexual assault they will be revictimized by the justice system.
(Solicitor General of Canada, "Canadian Urban Victimization Survey," Bulletin 4: Female Victims of Crime, Ottawa, 1985)
on the same page, surveys showed 60% of male respondents would commit rape if they were certain they could get away with it. This is in Canada.
source
We could find thousands of examples, if we look, of women who were humiliated and harassed by police when they tried to report a rape. We could find hundreds of examples of women who were humiliated and harassed by the media and public when they reported a rape. We could find a handful of women who were forced to compensate their rapists when the offender was not found guilty.
Are we screaming blue murder about any of those instances? This is in my own country where I might have more effect.
15. In one study, women gave the following reasons for not reporting incidents of sexual assault:
* belief that the police could do nothing about it (50%)
* concern about the attitude of both police and the courts towards sexual assault (44%)
* fear of another assault by the offender (33%)
* fear and shame (64%)
* Women who have been sexually assaulted often fear that if they report a sexual assault they will be revictimized by the justice system.
(Solicitor General of Canada, "Canadian Urban Victimization Survey," Bulletin 4: Female Victims of Crime, Ottawa, 1985)
on the same page, surveys showed 60% of male respondents would commit rape if they were certain they could get away with it. This is in Canada.
source
We could find thousands of examples, if we look, of women who were humiliated and harassed by police when they tried to report a rape. We could find hundreds of examples of women who were humiliated and harassed by the media and public when they reported a rape. We could find a handful of women who were forced to compensate their rapists when the offender was not found guilty.
Are we screaming blue murder about any of those instances? This is in my own country where I might have more effect.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
koan;725369 wrote: It is entirely more useful to take up a cause where citizens are calling for outside help. When the Muslim women of Saudi Arabia ask us to save them, the situation would become much different.
Should the United States allow Canada to invade to stop the death penalty from being carried out? Laugh it off because we'd never succeed but if that threat existed, would the US eliminate the death penalty or prepare to fight?
Bit difficult to ask for help when you are not free to speak to who you want and are isolated confined to your own family group. You also need economic freedom-in that you need to be able to support yourself. In the west women didn't start getting more freedom until their right to own property was restored and the right to divorce without being left penniless and viewed as a scarlet woman. Attitudes need to change but aren't likely to so long as religion rules the roost. You can find plenty religious groups in the west who feel much the same about woman-that they have forgotten their true role in life and lament women going out to work and being able to support themselves or raise children on their own.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 667349.stm
http://www.saudidebate.com/index.php?op ... Itemid=119
There's still many in the west that think it OK to hit your wife or girlfriend if she asks for it. Still many who think if a girl accepts a lift home from the pub she has given consent for sex, if she invites someone in for a coffee then the invite is for a bit more and claiming rape afterwards is a bit of a cheek.
What about forced marriage-as opposed to arranged ones where both parties can say no if they want-Cultural pressures can be a prison every bit as strong as one iwith bars.
Should the United States allow Canada to invade to stop the death penalty from being carried out? Laugh it off because we'd never succeed but if that threat existed, would the US eliminate the death penalty or prepare to fight?
Bit difficult to ask for help when you are not free to speak to who you want and are isolated confined to your own family group. You also need economic freedom-in that you need to be able to support yourself. In the west women didn't start getting more freedom until their right to own property was restored and the right to divorce without being left penniless and viewed as a scarlet woman. Attitudes need to change but aren't likely to so long as religion rules the roost. You can find plenty religious groups in the west who feel much the same about woman-that they have forgotten their true role in life and lament women going out to work and being able to support themselves or raise children on their own.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 667349.stm
http://www.saudidebate.com/index.php?op ... Itemid=119
There's still many in the west that think it OK to hit your wife or girlfriend if she asks for it. Still many who think if a girl accepts a lift home from the pub she has given consent for sex, if she invites someone in for a coffee then the invite is for a bit more and claiming rape afterwards is a bit of a cheek.
What about forced marriage-as opposed to arranged ones where both parties can say no if they want-Cultural pressures can be a prison every bit as strong as one iwith bars.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Why pretend we don't have the same problem?
Regarding treatment of a serial rapist victim in Toronto, Canada
http://www.casac.ca/english/issues/janedoe_book.htm
She also had a problem with the Toronto police's cross examiner referring to her rape as "non-violent" because the assaulter did not cut her with his knife. "The man who raped us was someone who lived a block away with his wife and had a regular job," she said. She told her audience a woman is raped every 17 minutes in Canada and nine out of 10 women don't report it because they are afraid they would not be vindicated. She stressed her ordeal in court was unbearable, with her character raked over the coals and her personal life poked and prodded, and she couldn't imagine how it would be for those who have society's preconceptions working against them. She said it's no wonder people are hesitant to come forward. "I am what they (Toronto police) called a good girl rape," she said: "Not too young, not too old, middle class, white. Asleep in bed with the doors locked. Horrifying as it is, imagine for the poor woman who is raped who is black, lesbian, disabled, drunk, a prostitute. They wouldn't be treated the same."
http://www.casac.ca/english/issues/janedoe.htm
Last week offered a prime example. Jane Doe, the woman who so recently and triumphantly won her 12 year lawsuit against the Metro Police for failing to warn her about a serial rapist in her neighbourhood, was pilloried for remarks made in the course of a speech she gave during the YWCA's Week Without Violence campaign.
Jane Doe, ironically, suffered considerable verbal violence in the wake of that speech. She was accurately quoted in The Star the next day as saying that "the legal system is not a safe place for a woman who has been raped, and women who choose to enter the system should know what tremendous pain they will be forced to endure."
...
According to Statistics Canada, only one in ten sexually assaulted women report to the police. Fewer than one per cent of self reported rapes will lead to a jail term. Along the way to that chilling moment when the Crown drops the case, or the accused rapist struts out of court a free man, the rape victim will be subjected to physical humiliations and emotional torment as the defense tries to probe her entire personal history to prove she is "damaged goods" and a vindictive liar.
Regarding treatment of a serial rapist victim in Toronto, Canada
http://www.casac.ca/english/issues/janedoe_book.htm
She also had a problem with the Toronto police's cross examiner referring to her rape as "non-violent" because the assaulter did not cut her with his knife. "The man who raped us was someone who lived a block away with his wife and had a regular job," she said. She told her audience a woman is raped every 17 minutes in Canada and nine out of 10 women don't report it because they are afraid they would not be vindicated. She stressed her ordeal in court was unbearable, with her character raked over the coals and her personal life poked and prodded, and she couldn't imagine how it would be for those who have society's preconceptions working against them. She said it's no wonder people are hesitant to come forward. "I am what they (Toronto police) called a good girl rape," she said: "Not too young, not too old, middle class, white. Asleep in bed with the doors locked. Horrifying as it is, imagine for the poor woman who is raped who is black, lesbian, disabled, drunk, a prostitute. They wouldn't be treated the same."
http://www.casac.ca/english/issues/janedoe.htm
Last week offered a prime example. Jane Doe, the woman who so recently and triumphantly won her 12 year lawsuit against the Metro Police for failing to warn her about a serial rapist in her neighbourhood, was pilloried for remarks made in the course of a speech she gave during the YWCA's Week Without Violence campaign.
Jane Doe, ironically, suffered considerable verbal violence in the wake of that speech. She was accurately quoted in The Star the next day as saying that "the legal system is not a safe place for a woman who has been raped, and women who choose to enter the system should know what tremendous pain they will be forced to endure."
...
According to Statistics Canada, only one in ten sexually assaulted women report to the police. Fewer than one per cent of self reported rapes will lead to a jail term. Along the way to that chilling moment when the Crown drops the case, or the accused rapist struts out of court a free man, the rape victim will be subjected to physical humiliations and emotional torment as the defense tries to probe her entire personal history to prove she is "damaged goods" and a vindictive liar.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Regarding this particular Muslim law, I sincerely believe a woman is safer if they do not meet with unrelated males in a secluded space.
My own experience with rape tells me that, like it or not, there is a hell of a lot of logic to it. My chances of being raped are extremely slim if I lived in that society and followed their laws. If I was raped in the company of a related male my rapists would likely be hung and I would not be punished.
During the course of this debate I have decided to change my lifestyle. I'm actually feeling bad about living with an unrelated male right now. If I were, God forbid, to be raped by my roommate the chances of a conviction are slim and would only be acquired after a long process of personal humiliation. I truly believe that my current living situation is a foolish choice.
I don't think I should have to feel this way but reality says I have reason to fear. Reality says I should change my lifestyle. Reality says that a huge number of Canadian rape victims are revictimized by police when they seek justice. Reality also says that fewer Saudi Arabian women are raped.
My own experience with rape tells me that, like it or not, there is a hell of a lot of logic to it. My chances of being raped are extremely slim if I lived in that society and followed their laws. If I was raped in the company of a related male my rapists would likely be hung and I would not be punished.
During the course of this debate I have decided to change my lifestyle. I'm actually feeling bad about living with an unrelated male right now. If I were, God forbid, to be raped by my roommate the chances of a conviction are slim and would only be acquired after a long process of personal humiliation. I truly believe that my current living situation is a foolish choice.
I don't think I should have to feel this way but reality says I have reason to fear. Reality says I should change my lifestyle. Reality says that a huge number of Canadian rape victims are revictimized by police when they seek justice. Reality also says that fewer Saudi Arabian women are raped.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
She told her audience a woman is raped every 17 minutes in Canada and nine out of 10 women don't report it because they are afraid they would not be vindicated
I'm rather curious how she came up with these statistics if the rapes weren't reported.
I'm rather curious how she came up with these statistics if the rapes weren't reported.