posted by gmc
Good grief woman it's one o'clock in the afternoon! What were you doing last night?
Ha! Hi gmc! It's only 7:15 AM here. I'm a night owl.
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RedGlitter
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gmc;722592 wrote:
posted by gmc
Good grief woman it's one o'clock in the afternoon! What were you doing last night?
Ha! Hi gmc! It's only 7:15 AM here. I'm a night owl.
posted by gmc
Good grief woman it's one o'clock in the afternoon! What were you doing last night?
Ha! Hi gmc! It's only 7:15 AM here. I'm a night owl.
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Jester;722986 wrote: It was intimidation at its finest.
Yes yes, I understand that and I agree entirely. I'm just asking what aspect of western systems of justice you were describing as far as increased sentences on appeal is concerned. What "fundamental right" were you putting forward?
Yes yes, I understand that and I agree entirely. I'm just asking what aspect of western systems of justice you were describing as far as increased sentences on appeal is concerned. What "fundamental right" were you putting forward?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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koan;721883 wrote: I don't consider the law to play an active role in protecting me.
I've been raped a number of times and never pressed charges as I don't believe justice is served by the courts.
I believe that answers your questions on a number of levels.
I'll be away for a few hours but if you'd like to challenge me more I'll be happy to continue when I return.
Welcome to FG. Glad to see you joining in the debates so quickly.
I am so sorry to hear this Koan, it must have been very traumatic. But unless you had these people bumped off or something
, doesn't leaving this crime unreported then allow these despicable excuses for human beings the opportunity to continue to rape other women. By reporting it, justice may have been served, and you could be saving other women from the same.
I've been raped a number of times and never pressed charges as I don't believe justice is served by the courts.
I believe that answers your questions on a number of levels.
I'll be away for a few hours but if you'd like to challenge me more I'll be happy to continue when I return.
Welcome to FG. Glad to see you joining in the debates so quickly.
I am so sorry to hear this Koan, it must have been very traumatic. But unless you had these people bumped off or something
, doesn't leaving this crime unreported then allow these despicable excuses for human beings the opportunity to continue to rape other women. By reporting it, justice may have been served, and you could be saving other women from the same.-
freetobeme
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I guess this particular Saudi tribunal wholeheartedly agrees with Sheikh Hilali, of Australia, the mufti who blames immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals. hmmm
Thought you might want to see this commentary in the Toronto Star...
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/278288
In a brutal ruling that mocks all justice, Saudi Arabia's grandly named Supreme Judicial Council has just imposed a six-month jail term and 200 lashes on "the Qatif girl," a 19-year-old gang-rape victim. cont...
Interesting to note a wierd cultural feature whereby the the 21st Cent. meets the 7th: Saudis are subscribing to a cellphone texting list to be notified of the time and place of beheadings.
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Thought you might want to see this commentary in the Toronto Star...
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/278288
In a brutal ruling that mocks all justice, Saudi Arabia's grandly named Supreme Judicial Council has just imposed a six-month jail term and 200 lashes on "the Qatif girl," a 19-year-old gang-rape victim. cont...
Interesting to note a wierd cultural feature whereby the the 21st Cent. meets the 7th: Saudis are subscribing to a cellphone texting list to be notified of the time and place of beheadings.
come join us here
senior's politics and discussion
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RedGlitter
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Here's a new article about the events.
I do believe the husband is delusional if he thinks Saudi Arabia respects its women (they can't even vote) but I'm going to concentrate on the rest of the article: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/ ... index.html
I do believe the husband is delusional if he thinks Saudi Arabia respects its women (they can't even vote) but I'm going to concentrate on the rest of the article: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/ ... index.html
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freetobeme
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I agree, I don't see their treatment of women as respectful, permission from a man to have surgery ?
"Under law in Saudi Arabia, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote."
come join us here
"Under law in Saudi Arabia, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote."
come join us here
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She was not punished for being raped. That was separate. She was punished for being alone with an unrelated male. That is a crime where she lives, one that she was aware was a crime and was aware that lashing was the punishment for the offense. She was not punished for being raped.
You claimed that the problem here was that she was punished for appealing. That, as spot has pointed out, is a chance people take when they appeal cases anywhere. Now that he made that point you are claiming it is a side issue. Does the issue change depending on which point you think you can win?
You claimed that the problem here was that she was punished for appealing. That, as spot has pointed out, is a chance people take when they appeal cases anywhere. Now that he made that point you are claiming it is a side issue. Does the issue change depending on which point you think you can win?
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Jester;723500 wrote: Is there a different thread regarding this issue? I do not wish to side track this discussion.
I can't for the life of me see how this is a sidetrack. One of the aggravating factors in this instance is surely the increased sentence on the Saudi woman - the thread wouldn't exist at all if that hadn't happened, surely. You said it was a fundamental right to be able to appeal a sentence without risk of it being increased. I asked how that view squared with a US instance I quoted and in what way you viewed this "right" as fundamental, noting that it seems not to be widespread in western jurisdictions. If it's a fundamental right in the US what happened in the case I mentioned? A paragraph or two from you expanding on "fundamental right" would take things forward.
I can't for the life of me see how this is a sidetrack. One of the aggravating factors in this instance is surely the increased sentence on the Saudi woman - the thread wouldn't exist at all if that hadn't happened, surely. You said it was a fundamental right to be able to appeal a sentence without risk of it being increased. I asked how that view squared with a US instance I quoted and in what way you viewed this "right" as fundamental, noting that it seems not to be widespread in western jurisdictions. If it's a fundamental right in the US what happened in the case I mentioned? A paragraph or two from you expanding on "fundamental right" would take things forward.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Jester;723530 wrote: Yes, you are correct, what I meant by ‘in her own case’ was her rape case, in the trial of the 7 men who raped her, she must not have been called as a witness if she isn’t allowed by Saudi law to testify on her own behalf and face her accusers if the incident she is a witness to, in her case her own rape, then she did not get a fair trial. That is my point.
They were convicted. Whether she testified or not they were found guilty as charged.
I did not mean to imply it was regarding her case of being unjustly punished for a car ride with a non familiar male. The 'aside' issue was considered a side issue by Spot. This thread has been to bulimia, anorexia, comparative legal systems, comparative justice systems, and America bashing. I was not going to try to extend it past the issue that you two keep so adeptly trying to skirt.
The concepts of one society being better than another calls many points into consideration. Since it was claimed that women have a terrible life in Saudi Arabia, the lives of women in North America become a counter point. You must look at the big picture not just the circumstances you choose. That is called narrow vision.
You were raped, you of all people should have more understanding towards what rape does, you even started another thread on the subject, which was better than hashing it out here in this thread. Besides all that, why would I want to keep arguing with you considering that your self admitted motive for posting is to sharpen your writing skills? I think so far the only thing I agree with in your posts is that you have impeccable spelling and grammar.
Her act of getting into that car has nothing to do with the subsequent rape. She was one of the rare people who's rapists get convicted. She has cause to celebrate. Unfortunately she also has her own crime to answer for. The reason they have that law is so that no woman will be in a position to be accused of adultery. She is married and she met with another man. That is a serious crime where she is from and she knew damn well. They could have met in public unless the picture she was retrieving was also of a sensitive nature.
My grammar has most certainly not been impeccable. That I am honing my debating skills does certainly not mean that I am choosing subjects I don't believe in. I'm crafty but I'm not a liar.
They were convicted. Whether she testified or not they were found guilty as charged.
I did not mean to imply it was regarding her case of being unjustly punished for a car ride with a non familiar male. The 'aside' issue was considered a side issue by Spot. This thread has been to bulimia, anorexia, comparative legal systems, comparative justice systems, and America bashing. I was not going to try to extend it past the issue that you two keep so adeptly trying to skirt.
The concepts of one society being better than another calls many points into consideration. Since it was claimed that women have a terrible life in Saudi Arabia, the lives of women in North America become a counter point. You must look at the big picture not just the circumstances you choose. That is called narrow vision.
You were raped, you of all people should have more understanding towards what rape does, you even started another thread on the subject, which was better than hashing it out here in this thread. Besides all that, why would I want to keep arguing with you considering that your self admitted motive for posting is to sharpen your writing skills? I think so far the only thing I agree with in your posts is that you have impeccable spelling and grammar.
Her act of getting into that car has nothing to do with the subsequent rape. She was one of the rare people who's rapists get convicted. She has cause to celebrate. Unfortunately she also has her own crime to answer for. The reason they have that law is so that no woman will be in a position to be accused of adultery. She is married and she met with another man. That is a serious crime where she is from and she knew damn well. They could have met in public unless the picture she was retrieving was also of a sensitive nature.
My grammar has most certainly not been impeccable. That I am honing my debating skills does certainly not mean that I am choosing subjects I don't believe in. I'm crafty but I'm not a liar.
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From The Guardian
Some women who report rape can end up in the dock. Last year, a teenager who reported being raped by three men in a park was cautioned by police for perverting the course of justice after the accused showed footage from a mobile phone of the victim engaging in sexual activity with one of the men. "It proved nothing," she tells me, "except that they were filming the rape for porn." Police have since wiped the caution after the victim challenged it.
Some women who report rape can end up in the dock. Last year, a teenager who reported being raped by three men in a park was cautioned by police for perverting the course of justice after the accused showed footage from a mobile phone of the victim engaging in sexual activity with one of the men. "It proved nothing," she tells me, "except that they were filming the rape for porn." Police have since wiped the caution after the victim challenged it.
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more?
Previous allegations can influence whether or not police and jurors decide if the complainant is lying. The horrific consequence of this attitude is that women raped more than once who report attacks to the police are even less likely to get justice than others. Complainants who the police or courts decide have lied could be named, and there are now even calls for their DNA to be filed in case of future reports of rape.
Some women who report rape risk heavy penalties in the civil courts. Lucy Green is one of a number of women sued for slander in the past decade after the men they accused were either not charged or acquitted in court. "All of a sudden I was in court as a defendant, not a victim of rape, which I had been prepared to endure. I was so scared I wet myself on several occasions during cross-examination."
The jury was divided and gave a hung verdict. "If he had won I would have been forced to make a public apology and pay him money for raping me."
Previous allegations can influence whether or not police and jurors decide if the complainant is lying. The horrific consequence of this attitude is that women raped more than once who report attacks to the police are even less likely to get justice than others. Complainants who the police or courts decide have lied could be named, and there are now even calls for their DNA to be filed in case of future reports of rape.
Some women who report rape risk heavy penalties in the civil courts. Lucy Green is one of a number of women sued for slander in the past decade after the men they accused were either not charged or acquitted in court. "All of a sudden I was in court as a defendant, not a victim of rape, which I had been prepared to endure. I was so scared I wet myself on several occasions during cross-examination."
The jury was divided and gave a hung verdict. "If he had won I would have been forced to make a public apology and pay him money for raping me."
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You'll also find that you are wrong about her future as well, Jester. Her husband appears to be entirely supportive and outraged. He has given interviews and says that the judge was mean to her. He seems to feel that the courts are normally not like that. Sounds like she found herself a wonderful man.
None of this would have gone wrong for her if she had decided to not report it. It's good that the men were caught and convicted but it also is an example supporting what I said about why women don't always report. They can be sued for slander and even jailed for false accusations if they don't win their case.
None of this would have gone wrong for her if she had decided to not report it. It's good that the men were caught and convicted but it also is an example supporting what I said about why women don't always report. They can be sued for slander and even jailed for false accusations if they don't win their case.
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Jester;723553 wrote: Do you or do you not think that this woman was treated harshly? You can round this thing one hundred and fifty five times with cases from all over that are just as harsh, but I'm asking you about this case. If it is true that her husband is supportive that’s fantastic news and I wish her all the well being and healing in the world. But I’m undecided yet if I believe that he is supportive, it is entirely possible he’s trying his utmost to get it out of the media to minimize the damage to his family. It is very likely that the reason this case got reported is because the male she was with was also raped. If a man hadn’t been violated then I’m sure she wouldn’t have had to report it
Within the culture in which she lives she was treated according to the law and no more harshly than many defendants tried in Britain or the US.
Within the culture in which she lives she was treated according to the law and no more harshly than many defendants tried in Britain or the US.
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Jester;723553 wrote: Do you or do you not think that this woman was treated harshly? You can round this thing one hundred and fifty five times with cases from all over that are just as harsh, but I'm asking you about this case. If it is true that her husband is supportive that’s fantastic news and I wish her all the well being and healing in the world. But I’m undecided yet if I believe that he is supportive, it is entirely possible he’s trying his utmost to get it out of the media to minimize the damage to his family. It is very likely that the reason this case got reported is because the male she was with was also raped. If a man hadn’t been violated then I’m sure she wouldn’t have had to report it
All this "has to" mentality. You've been proven wrong on so many points. I think she was given the standard punishment for the crime she was convicted of, as was the boy. No one has really expressed condolences for him either. Why is that?
I've said that it is terrible she was raped. I've said that I think she was nuts to meet with that boy in private and I'm not surprised at her sentence and I've said her lawyer gave her crap advice and he ought to absorb her extra punishment. I'm quite outraged that he put her at further risk. I've said that I think she has a wonderful husband and I'm happy for her that she has someone who obviously loves her. I wish her the best in recovering from her trauma.
I can not, knowing what I know about Muslim culture, say that what she did was not a punishable crime.
All this "has to" mentality. You've been proven wrong on so many points. I think she was given the standard punishment for the crime she was convicted of, as was the boy. No one has really expressed condolences for him either. Why is that?
I've said that it is terrible she was raped. I've said that I think she was nuts to meet with that boy in private and I'm not surprised at her sentence and I've said her lawyer gave her crap advice and he ought to absorb her extra punishment. I'm quite outraged that he put her at further risk. I've said that I think she has a wonderful husband and I'm happy for her that she has someone who obviously loves her. I wish her the best in recovering from her trauma.
I can not, knowing what I know about Muslim culture, say that what she did was not a punishable crime.
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What punishment was given to him for being alone with an unrelated female?
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gmc;723587 wrote: What punishment was given to him for being alone with an unrelated female?
Exactly the same as she received. It's non-sexist legislation, Saudi Arabia's law enforcement is an equal opportunity prosecutor.
Her lawyer's starting to drip new information to reporters. According to CNN, "The woman and the man were attacked after they met so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was seeking to retrieve was innocuous."
Exactly the same as she received. It's non-sexist legislation, Saudi Arabia's law enforcement is an equal opportunity prosecutor.
Her lawyer's starting to drip new information to reporters. According to CNN, "The woman and the man were attacked after they met so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was seeking to retrieve was innocuous."
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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I've thought about this quite seriously from all perspectives. The photograph, the claims that she was being blackmailed... there is always a lot we don't know about.
I can truly say that I understand why she was sentenced for her indiscretion because I have a brother and SIL who are devout Muslims and I understand why they have the customs they have.
It's not that I don't feel empathy for her as a rape victim. That is an entirely different matter from her own sentencing though. I do sympathize with the pain she must be going through, particularly because it was a brutal multiple attack. The best I could suggest in the situation that I feel takes all factors into account is that they ask for her sentence to be delayed until she has recovered from her trauma. That could be for the rest of her life. As it is, and based on the Saudi response to criticism - maintaining that their laws were upheld, I can't see any other plea that will actually have a positive effect on her situation.
I can truly say that I understand why she was sentenced for her indiscretion because I have a brother and SIL who are devout Muslims and I understand why they have the customs they have.
It's not that I don't feel empathy for her as a rape victim. That is an entirely different matter from her own sentencing though. I do sympathize with the pain she must be going through, particularly because it was a brutal multiple attack. The best I could suggest in the situation that I feel takes all factors into account is that they ask for her sentence to be delayed until she has recovered from her trauma. That could be for the rest of her life. As it is, and based on the Saudi response to criticism - maintaining that their laws were upheld, I can't see any other plea that will actually have a positive effect on her situation.
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freetobeme
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Jester;723553 wrote: Do you or do you not think that this woman was treated harshly? You can round this thing one hundred and fifty five times with cases from all over that are just as harsh, but I'm asking you about this case. If it is true that her husband is supportive that’s fantastic news and I wish her all the well being and healing in the world. But I’m undecided yet if I believe that he is supportive, it is entirely possible he’s trying his utmost to get it out of the media to minimize the damage to his family. It is very likely that the reason this case got reported is because the male she was with was also raped. If a man hadn’t been violated then I’m sure she wouldn’t have had to report it
All I can say is, terms like barbaric, evil, inhumane, revolting, sadistic are hopelessly inadequate to describe the treatment of this woman.
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All I can say is, terms like barbaric, evil, inhumane, revolting, sadistic are hopelessly inadequate to describe the treatment of this woman.
come join us here
senior's politics and discussion
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freetobeme;723688 wrote: All I can say is, terms like barbaric, evil, inhumane, revolting, sadistic are hopelessly inadequate to describe the treatment of this woman.
As are exactly the same terms when referring to Death Row!
As are exactly the same terms when referring to Death Row!
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freetobeme;723688 wrote: All I can say is, terms like barbaric, evil, inhumane, revolting, sadistic are hopelessly inadequate to describe the treatment of this woman.I agree with you entirely. Barbaric would be the antithesis of civilized Saudi values, revolting ignores their cultural conservatism, inhumane fails to recognize the placidity of their society and sadistic shows a simple lack of understanding of the Saudi judicial lash. The words you chose are, just as you say, hopelessly inadequate to describe the treatment of this woman.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Jester;723789 wrote: From all I’ve seen and read, here and other places, there is no way I want any of my family to live under the tyranny of Islamic rule, that type of protection is without freedom to self determine life.How simple life is for you then - don't live in Saudi Arabia. Their laws don't extend beyond their borders and their rulers have no desire to make them spread across the globe. One might wholeheartedly wish, in today's political climate, that the same were true of other countries as well.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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freetobeme
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Bryn Mawr;723744 wrote: As are exactly the same terms when referring to Death Row!
What's your point !
What's your point !
senior's politics and discussion
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You speak of those with a speck in their eye while ignoring the plank in your own.
The only way in which you'll get Islamic rule is if a large majority of your population convert to Islam and vote it in democratically by their own will. You seem in contrast to be trying to impose your own ideas on Saudi Arabia from outside.
The only way in which you'll get Islamic rule is if a large majority of your population convert to Islam and vote it in democratically by their own will. You seem in contrast to be trying to impose your own ideas on Saudi Arabia from outside.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Jester;723820 wrote: Let me simplify this issue, I would not live under tyrannical conditions, if I did I’d rebel and fight, anywhere, anytime. I’d rather be dead than trampled on. That is the existence that I choose for me. When I see or hear of another human living under such conditions I express my humanity out to them, I only hope and pray they understand in our common fabric of flesh and blood that there are those far away from them who would do all they could to stop the cruel punishment. At this point there is nothing I could do for them. If you’re asking me if I thought that the world would be a better place without Islam I would say yes, absolutely yes. But I’m certain since humans haven’t changed in 12,000 years that another ideology that seeks to oppress others would rise in its place, as such is the history of all humankind. The societies that strive towards peace and freedom and self government are far less likely to be tyrannical in nature and should be promoted as ideal governments. Those governments that oppress and destroy the human spirit should be over thrown and destroyed. That is best achieved by those who are oppressed and choose to fight when they are ready. I would pledge my help to them whenever and wherever I could. Do you have any disagreement with that?
Not in the slightest and I'd fight in the trenches alongside you to achieve it.
You do realize that one in twelve of all black men of working age in the entire USA is in jail behind bars tonight? I would not live under tyrannical conditions, if I did I’d rebel and fight, anywhere, anytime. One in eight of the entire world prison population is a black American. How much more proof than that do you need to convince you that you have an unrighted continuing and growing injustice of gargantuan proportions on your hands?
Not in the slightest and I'd fight in the trenches alongside you to achieve it.
You do realize that one in twelve of all black men of working age in the entire USA is in jail behind bars tonight? I would not live under tyrannical conditions, if I did I’d rebel and fight, anywhere, anytime. One in eight of the entire world prison population is a black American. How much more proof than that do you need to convince you that you have an unrighted continuing and growing injustice of gargantuan proportions on your hands?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Jester;723830 wrote: Drawing conclusions solely on demographic studies is a dangerous avenue of problem solving.That's very reassuring.
Do you know what I'd do if I were a black American? I'd be off down the local mosque so fast you'd not see my feet touch the ground. I'd be queueing up for enough lessons to be allowed to qualify for membership. Damn right there's problems.
Do you know what I'd do if I were a black American? I'd be off down the local mosque so fast you'd not see my feet touch the ground. I'd be queueing up for enough lessons to be allowed to qualify for membership. Damn right there's problems.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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freetobeme;723811 wrote: What's your point !
That the west has no right to act holier than thou whilst condoning abominations like that.
That the west has no right to act holier than thou whilst condoning abominations like that.
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Jester;723812 wrote: One truly hopes that Islamic rule stays put and does not spread beyond its regional reach. I hope even more that the people under such tyranny rise up to fight and self govern. I can still care about what happens to people who live under such barbaric conditions. Is it wrong to care? Is it wrong to express outrage at treatment that is so cruel? A few of you threw out the baby with the bathwater.
The Saudi people do self govern - they have they are happy witrh and live peacefully under.
When the poor sods next door fight to get self government you call then insurgents and condemn them as terrorists. They certainly do not have self government, they have a government inposed and propped up by an invading force.
Which is the tyranny and who are the barbarians?
The Saudi people do self govern - they have they are happy witrh and live peacefully under.
When the poor sods next door fight to get self government you call then insurgents and condemn them as terrorists. They certainly do not have self government, they have a government inposed and propped up by an invading force.
Which is the tyranny and who are the barbarians?
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Jester;723881 wrote: Not all of the Saudi's govern themselves; the female portion of their population has no say in the government.
It may seem a trivial matter to you but nobody in the UK under the age of 18 can vote either. I only mention this because I disagree profoundly with the principle involved.
Neither (for completeness) may foreign nationals other than citizens of the Irish Republic and all of the Commonwealth countries who are resident in the UK at the time of the election, nor any member of the House of Lords, nor prisoners currently serving a sentence. UK expatriates continue to be eligible to vote for 15 years after leaving the country. Special provisions are explicitly made for the homeless, residents of mental hospitals and the illiterate to vote. Foreign European Union citizens can't vote even if resident in the UK though, strangely enough, they can stand as candidates.
What exclusions apply to, say, US presidential elections? I seem to remember, for example, that ex-prisoners still can't vote even after they've completed their sentence.
It may seem a trivial matter to you but nobody in the UK under the age of 18 can vote either. I only mention this because I disagree profoundly with the principle involved.
Neither (for completeness) may foreign nationals other than citizens of the Irish Republic and all of the Commonwealth countries who are resident in the UK at the time of the election, nor any member of the House of Lords, nor prisoners currently serving a sentence. UK expatriates continue to be eligible to vote for 15 years after leaving the country. Special provisions are explicitly made for the homeless, residents of mental hospitals and the illiterate to vote. Foreign European Union citizens can't vote even if resident in the UK though, strangely enough, they can stand as candidates.
What exclusions apply to, say, US presidential elections? I seem to remember, for example, that ex-prisoners still can't vote even after they've completed their sentence.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
Jester;723880 wrote: If you're referring to the coalition liberation of Iraq from the hands of the tyrannical Batthis't party, and now the various factions throughout the world whose chief form of engagement is the deployment of terror then I would identify the following nomenclature concerning the groups involved. The Liberator's are the international coalition forces currently occupying Iraq for the purpose of luring in and destroying the insurgency while at the same time rebuilding the infrastructure and stabilizing the security for the innocent. The insurgency are the various factions that threaten the world with their forms of terror actions that does both deliberately target and indiscriminately kill the innocent in it’s sought after control of the world. Barbarians, though? I do not see the nomenclature fitting the term barbarians.Barbarian indicates a somewhat uncouth form of attack, with the desire to plunder, while this insurgency made up of hundreds of Islamic Jihadist groups seeks not monetary gain, but a deeper form of tyranny that extends their form of oppressive religion over the necks of the likes of you and me. They do have a decidedly more lethal approach that is far more sophisticated than throwing boulders and hacking with broadswords. On the other hand they do border on the term by some of their actions, such as sawing the heads off their enemies and other innocent bystanders and publicly staging it for affect. So while I cannot fully attach the name barbarian to them, I will call some of their actions barbaric in nature.
A perfect description of the invasion don't you think :wah:
Your viewpoint is so totally inconsistent it's untrue.
The invasion was illegal immoral and unjustifiable carried out with the twin motives of revenge and plunder.
If you doubt the motive of plunder, ask yourself where many billions of Iraqi oil revenue have gone.
A perfect description of the invasion don't you think :wah:
Your viewpoint is so totally inconsistent it's untrue.
The invasion was illegal immoral and unjustifiable carried out with the twin motives of revenge and plunder.
If you doubt the motive of plunder, ask yourself where many billions of Iraqi oil revenue have gone.
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I must admit that I had a good chuckle reading that too.
"coalition liberation of..." "chief form of engagement is the deployment of terror..."
It's like a summary of the Republican doublespeak dictionary.
"coalition liberation of..." "chief form of engagement is the deployment of terror..."
It's like a summary of the Republican doublespeak dictionary.
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What I can't quite get over is this concept of "various factions that threaten the world with their forms of terror actions", as though Western countries are susceptible to termination by the action of non-governmental organizations. The idea that these factions opposed to Western intervention in the Middle East "sought after control of the world" is such a dire misinterpretation of what's happening. The mere pretence that the US might be overthrown by towelhead sand-niggers invading across the Atlantic is preposterous and I've seen those terms used often enough to know the racial overtones they imply. It's like referring to gooks because a dead gook had no value to begin with. If it's subhuman it's easier to gun down and laugh at afterwards.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
More on Saudi Rape Victim
The Liberator's are the international coalition forces currently occupying Iraq for the purpose of luring in and destroying the insurgency
:wah::wah:
I can almost hear brain cells dying.
:wah::wah:
I can almost hear brain cells dying.