More on Saudi Rape Victim

[RedGlitter]

I know it's in their doctrine but the ignorance behind this, that a rape victim needs to be punished a second time, just sets me on fire!!





Saudi court ups punishment for gang-rape victim


Story Highlights

Woman, 19, gets six months prison, 200 lashes for meeting with unrelated man

Group of seven raped her and the man, from whom she was retrieving photos

After lawyer protests light sentences, rapists' sentences increased

Victim's punishment doubled for talking to the media(CNN) -- A court in Saudi Arabia increased the punishment for a gang-rape victim after her lawyer won an appeal of the sentence for the rapists, the lawyer told CNN.

The 19-year-old victim was sentenced last year to 90 lashes for meeting with an unrelated male, a former friend from whom she was retrieving photographs. The seven rapists, who abducted the pair and raped both, received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison.

The victim's attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, contested the rapists' sentence, contending there is a fatwa, or edict under Islamic law, that considers such crimes Hiraba (sinful violent crime) and the punishment should be death.

"After a year, the preliminary court changed the punishment and made it two to nine years for the defendants," al-Lahim said of the new decision handed down Wednesday. "However, we were shocked that they also changed the victim's sentence to be six months in prison and 200 lashes."

The judges more than doubled the punishment for the victim because of "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media," according to a source quoted by Arab News, an English-language Middle Eastern daily newspaper.

Judge Saad al-Muhanna from the Qatif General Court also barred al-Lahim from defending his client and revoked his law license, al-Lahim said. The attorney has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice next month.

Al-Lahim said he is appealing the decision to bar him from representing the victim and has a meeting with Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al Al-Sheikh on Monday.

"Currently she doesn't have a lawyer, and I feel they're doing this to isolate her and deprive her from her basic rights," al-Lahim said. "We will not accept this judgment and I'll do my best to continue representing her because justice needs to take place."

Al-Lahim said he wanted the Justice Ministry to take "a very clear standing" on the case, saying the decision is "judicial mutiny against reform that King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz started and against Saudi women who are being victimized because of such decisions."

Women are subject to numerous restrictions in Saudi Arabia, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and the need for a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.

The Saudi government recently has taken some steps toward bettering the situation of women in the kingdom, including the establishment earlier this year of special courts to handle domestic abuse cases, adoption of a new labor law that addresses working women's rights, and creation of a human rights commission.

CNN was unable to reach government officials for comment.

[spot]

Good lord - she's not being lashed and imprisoned for being raped!

Is being raped a get-out-of-jail card in the US?

I note in passing that the "former friend" was given exactly the same punishment as the woman, both at the original trial and by the court of appeal. The article glosses over that fact.

[RedGlitter]

But it seems crazy to me to whip this woman at all! And wrong. And cruel. She was already punished by being raped, why add insult to that by beating her? And I know they don't respect women in that country but over here we still prevail in the idea that you don't hit women.

You say she's not being beaten for being raped but in a roundabout way, I think that's exactly the thinking behind it. That she broke a law is just an excuse. What they really object to is that she was "loose" and had been in the company of this man.

I think they're just plain wrong all around.

[spot]

Being alone in a car with a member of the opposite sex to whom you're not related gets you - the woman and the man, I might add, he was given exactly the same sentence - lashed in Saudi Arabia. That's one of their laws and one of their punishments. There are laws and punishments in different countries that I find detestable but it doesn't mean that breaking it isn't a crime there or that the sentence won't be inflicted. Being a rape victim doesn't protect you from accounting for your crime before a court in Saudi Arabia any more than it does in, say, Peoria Illinois.

If a woman in Peoria - to draw a comparison - breaks into a jeweller's shop by night carrying a sack marked "swag" and while filling it with Rolex watches and Zircon engagement rings is raped by a passing gang of ne'er-do-wells, would you wish to see the full panoply of the US legal system enacted against her for the attempted robbery or does the rape remit her initial offence in your eyes?

The whole point of Saudi society is that Saudi men respect women far more than American men do. Saudi Arabians don't have the concept of otherwise wholesome female college students trading sexual favours for beads in public while drunk out of their skulls, much less their travelling to New Orleans in carnival week to do it. They're also quite good at reducing their crime rate to minuscule proportions compared to what you'd regard as commonplace.

[freetobeme]

Hmmm, you make a valid point, she did knowingly break the law, but what a law. I wish we could do something for women's rights over there, but we can't...let us make sure that none of these cultural norms are imported to N. American. We might be a multicultural society but not all cultures or beliefs are acceptable.



visit me here

[spot]

You do far far worse than the world's civilized nations, freetobeme. You retain the death penalty in the face of overwhelming abhorrence from other nationalities.

That's a comparable statement to "we dislike a judicial system that whips people". Not women, mind - people. Both the car's occupants were sentenced equally to be whipped. Well, we dislike a judicial system that executes people. What are you going to do about it.

[koan]

By the small print on your opening post in this second thread, it seems that you were trying to rid the debate of spot's comments by starting over again.

This isn't "more" on the topic. It is the same topic and, personally, I support spot's point of view. They know the values and rules of their society. This woman by committing what may seem like an innocent act has brought shame to her husband before they even started living together. It's a terrible thing that she did. Completely avoidable and irresponsible of her.

The men who committed the rape will be punished as well but she is likely most upset that by this happening she was caught for having broken the law herself.

[RedGlitter]

Spot, that you can actually say the Saudis respect their women amazes me. They fear their women. Why do you think they cover them up? Because the women have such power that the men cannot be trusted to remain appropriate if the women aren't covering their assets. It has not a thing to do with "respect." Respect demands that you do not strike a woman. For the most part, we are still not as physically strong as men even if we do give birth to small humans. We are also the ones who give life to men's children and that should be respected by treating women properly.

I am not questioning the legality of their system. I am questioning their ethics of which I see great need for improvement. You may strike this as only one person's opinion but in regards to the DP, there is great difference between getting in a car with an unknown person and taking a person's life. I understand the parallel you are trying to make, I just don't agree with it. Besides if the world can make it known how they feel about the US's stance on capital punishment then I see no reason why we cannot criticize another country's despicable policy.

[RedGlitter]

koan;721853 wrote: By the small print on your opening post in this second thread, it seems that you were trying to rid the debate of spot's comments by starting over again.

This isn't "more" on the topic. It is the same topic and, personally, I support spot's point of view. They know the values and rules of their society.

The men who committed the rape will be punished as well but she is likely most upset that by this happening she was caught for having broken the law herself.


And who created that shame, Koan? MEN. I can't buy that. Shame is relative in this case. What you're calling shame is nothing more than subjugation of women. In fact, your comments would almost seem to allow that you find it agreeable.

[RedGlitter]

Sorry I forgot to respond to these....

spot;721677 wrote: Good lord - she's not being lashed and imprisoned for being raped!

Is being raped a get-out-of-jail card in the US?

No. What I am saying is that she was dealt with unfairly. So the rapist got lashed. Big deal. Who suffered the worse degradation here for merely getting into a car with an unrelated man? Once again, I'm not questioning the legality, I'm questioning the stupidity of their society.

I note in passing that the "former friend" was given exactly the same punishment as the woman, both at the original trial and by the court of appeal. The article glosses over that fact.


It's hardly the same. What he did to her was far more wrong than what she did. He violated her person. In their eyes all she did was degrade others. There was no actual violation.



spot;721824 wrote: Being alone in a car with a member of the opposite sex to whom you're not related gets you - the woman and the man, I might add, he was given exactly the same sentence - lashed in Saudi Arabia. That's one of their laws and one of their punishments. There are laws and punishments in different countries that I find detestable but it doesn't mean that breaking it isn't a crime there or that the sentence won't be inflicted. Being a rape victim doesn't protect you from accounting for your crime before a court in Saudi Arabia any more than it does in, say, Peoria Illinois.

If a woman in Peoria - to draw a comparison - breaks into a jeweller's shop by night carrying a sack marked "swag" and while filling it with Rolex watches and Zircon engagement rings is raped by a passing gang of ne'er-do-wells, would you wish to see the full panoply of the US legal system enacted against her for the attempted robbery or does the rape remit her initial offence in your eyes?

No, the thief should still be punished. I do not equate theivery with rape however, not in any way close. What it comes down to for me is that Saudi Arabia needs to step into civilization. I find their policies despicable.

The whole point of Saudi society is that Saudi men respect women far more than American men do. Saudi Arabians don't have the concept of otherwise wholesome female college students trading sexual favours for beads in public while drunk out of their skulls, much less their travelling to New Orleans in carnival week to do it. They're also quite good at reducing their crime rate to minuscule proportions compared to what you'd regard as commonplace.


If the girls are of age and want to show themselves off then that's fine by me. Who's getting hurt? I am not sure I understand the point you're trying to make unless it's to imply that Saudi somehow is more desirable due to forced modesty, in which I would highly disagree.

[koan]

RedGlitter;721857 wrote: And who created that shame, Koan? MEN. I can't buy that. Shame is relative in this case. What you're calling shame is nothing more than subjugation of women. In fact, your comments would almost seem to allow that you find it agreeable.


The Muslim women I've spoken to are grateful that they are given such protection. They love that men can't ogle their bodies or flirt inappropriately with them and that they are not put in positions to be accused of cheating on their husbands because the opportunity is never provided. They feel safe.

The very fabric of their society is threatened by allowing women to flaunt themselves. They see the divorce rates and the poor family values of the West and cling even more to their own ideas. I don't think N America is in a position to claim they've got it right. Our situation with bad marriages is no better than theirs.

[koan]

give me a break. How many Western men beat their wives for the same thing? You think this happens more in Muslim households?

Look at the rates of domestic violence in Canada and the US.

[spot]

They're your two threads, RedGlitter, you ought to know the correct story.

Two people of opposite sex who were unrelated were in a car together. That's a crime in Saudi Arabia. Both were given the same sentence by the same court for the same offence. Neither raped the other, neither had sex with the other, the punishment was for the breaking of the law as I describe it here.

Seven men then raped both of the occupants. All seven men were sentenced to harsher punishments for the crime of raping the occupants.

As for who respects women more, American men or Saudi men, that's a matter of interpretation. Yours differs from mine. My impression is that the majority of Saudi women prefer to wear traditional clothing for decency. There seems to me to be no mass clamour among them for a more liberal attitude to exposing themselves in public. Just because you'd prefer it diesn't mean every culture would.

Who's getting hurt by the sort of public indecency I described? I'd suggest that it's American women who are ultimately hurt by it. American society is far less law-abiding than Saudi society. I hesitate to offer you an academic peer-reviewed comparison of crime rates because you seem to prefer your innate feelings in these matters but I'll do it anyway just for the record. Here's snippets from A Comparative Criminology Tour of the World by Dr. Robert Winslow at San Diego State University: analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Saudi Arabia ... seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime ... For murder, the rate in 2000 was 0.71 per 100,000 population for Saudi Arabia and 5.51 for USA.

For rape, the rate in 2000 was 0.14 for Saudi Arabia and 32.05 for USA.

For robbery, the rate in 2000 was 0.14 for Saudi Arabia and 144.92 for USA.

For aggravated assault, the rate in 2000 was 0.12 for Saudi Arabia and 323.62 for USA.

For burglary, the rate in 2000 was 0.05 for Saudi Arabia and 728.42 for USA.

The rate of larceny for 2000 was 79.71 for Saudi Arabia and 2475.27 for USA.

The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2000 was 76.25 for Saudi Arabia and 414.17 for USA.

The rate for all index offenses combined was 157.12 for Saudi Arabia and 4123.97 for USA.You can't completely dismiss the possibility that some people who live there quite like the peace and quiet those figures imply. The price is the legal system, the benefit is the legal system. You don't have to adopt their enlightened existence but you don't have to push your ways onto a country that doesn't want them either.

I'm not saying you should like the way the Saudis achieve their rather enviable lack of crime, I'm saying you can't steal it from them and insist that they turn into a Middle Eastern USA. The Saudis have seen what Western secularizing and democratizing has done to Iraq, after all. I'm not suggesting that Saudi Arabia is somehow more desirable due to forced modesty, I'm saying it might be considered more desirable due to the far lower crime rate which, believe it or not, is real.

You say, in relation to lashing as a punishment, that "respect demands that you do not strike a woman". Would that same respect not also demand that you don't imprison a woman? That you don't execute a woman? Lashing's far less of a punishment than imprisonment or execution, both of which are prominent features of the US judicial system.

[koan]

Jester;721880 wrote: Do you want to live under the rule of a husband who has the right to beat you for something as simple as burning dinner? In the US if a man beats his wife it's a crime. And a wife has the right to file charges against him. Do you want to live without the right to defend yourself legally?


I don't consider the law to play an active role in protecting me.

I've been raped a number of times and never pressed charges as I don't believe justice is served by the courts.

I believe that answers your questions on a number of levels.



I'll be away for a few hours but if you'd like to challenge me more I'll be happy to continue when I return.

Welcome to FG. Glad to see you joining in the debates so quickly.

[gmc]

Posted by red glitter

The 19-year-old victim was sentenced last year to 90 lashes for meeting with an unrelated male, a former friend from whom she was retrieving photographs. The seven rapists, who abducted the pair and raped both, received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison.


Wonder what the sentence for homosexual rape is?

posted by red glitter

I am not questioning the legality of their system. I am questioning their ethics of which I see great need for improvement. You may strike this as only one person's opinion but in regards to the DP, there is great difference between getting in a car with an unknown person and taking a person's life. I understand the parallel you are trying to make, I just don't agree with it. Besides if the world can make it known how they feel about the US's stance on capital punishment then I see no reason why we cannot criticize another country's despicable policy.


You're judging by western liberal values. By their lights she was asking for trouble. The saudi legal system is based on sharia or islamic law.

posted by red glitter

If the girls are of age and want to show themselves off then that's fine by me. Who's getting hurt? I am not sure I understand the point you're trying to make unless it's to imply that Saudi somehow is more desirable due to forced modesty, in which I would highly disagree.


How often had you heard the attitude that a rape victim was asking for it because of Her dress, way of behaving, went to the guy's house, shouldn't have got in a car with three people etc etc. We've progressed since then. There's quite a few good fundamentalists christians around that would find a lot in common with the same basic attitude. They might be more sympathetic to her and be appalled at the homosexuality but would share the same sentiment that she was asking for it.

I hasten to add I basically agree with red glitter except it's up to saudi's to sort out their own problems. But saudi is a staunch ally in the war against terror and for freedom and democracy in the middle east. So western governmemnts will turn a blind eye and ignore their culpability so long as saudi has oil. never mind it was saudis that flew those plabes in to the twin towers or that the kind of islamic fundamentalism that now is apparently such a terrible risk has it's origins in Saudi arabia.

[koan]

Jester;721884 wrote: You never gave justice a chance then. You proceeded on an assumption, what if you were wrong and the person/s who raped you was jailed? Just because you don't believe it doesn’t mean that enacting the process doesn’t help society.


I've had experiences in court over other matters. I have reason to see the courts as a court system and not a justice system. The "chances" I've afforded them cost me a lot both emotionally and financially.

What annoys me in this case, as in most court cases, is that the lawyer cost his client an extra 110 lashes for following his advice. I feel the lawyer should absorb the extra punishment, not the client.

I was also wondering why the boy's lawyer didn't appeal his punishment. If she was wronged then so was he.

If Americans are outraged over the situation, why don't you appeal to your government to grant asylum to all Saudi women who step through the gates of the American embassy asking to be rescued from a cruel society? You'd help them much quicker that way and find out which of them want to be saved.

[Bryn Mawr]

koan;721927 wrote: I've had experiences in court over other matters. I have reason to see the courts as a court system and not a justice system. The "chances" I've afforded them cost me a lot both emotionally and financially.

What annoys me in this case, as in most court cases, is that the lawyer cost his client an extra 110 lashes for following his advice. I feel the lawyer should absorb the extra punishment, not the client.

I was also wondering why the boy's lawyer didn't appeal his punishment. If she was wronged then so was he.

If Americans are outraged over the situation, why don't you appeal to your government to grant asylum to all Saudi women who step through the gates of the American embassy asking to be rescued from a cruel society? You'd help them much quicker that way and find out which of them want to be saved.


:wah: The perfect solution Koan - I like your thinking :-6

[Mia]

The West will never accept the East as far as religion and the treatment of women goes.They are set in their ways.Our own women have had to fight for the vote,equal pay etc.It is down to the Eastern women to make a stand.Somehow I think that will be many years from now,this poor woman being a prime example.

[koan]

Regarding the social benefits of being a woman in either culture, anorexia kills a number of young women every year in N America. Saudi Arabia does not have this problem.

Three percent of all young women and girls in the United States suffer from anorexia, so a girl's chances of survival increase instantly if born in the Saudi Arabian social environment.

statistic from this site are just an easy to read format, other stats are welcome.

statement regarding lack of problem in Saudi are from this page

[freetobeme]

spot;721851 wrote: You do far far worse than the world's civilized nations, freetobeme. You retain the death penalty in the face of overwhelming abhorrence from other nationalities.

That's a comparable statement to "we dislike a judicial system that whips people". Not women, mind - people. Both the car's occupants were sentenced equally to be whipped. Well, we dislike a judicial system that executes people. What are you going to do about it.


Actually Canada does not have the death penalty, but there are some who I would say deserve it.





visit me here

[RedGlitter]

Koan, you realize by not reporting those rapes, you allowed the rapist(s) to go free to possibly (and likely) rape another woman? You made that judgement call for all other women. I am very surprised and incredibly disappointed to know that. That's all I'm going to say about it.

I am amazed that we have gone from Saudi's poor policy of beating women to anorexia stats. What's that about? Besides completely different things. What is the point of living in a society that lacks freedom for all? I'm sure some women like it there, but when you know nothing else and have been brainwashed, an apple is just an apple and never a whole pie.

So much to address here. I'll probably miss something again. I do want to say that Saudi Arabia has no monopoly on modesty. Modesty is as much a personal code as it is a government/religious policy. There are many western women and women in other countries who claim modesty without having to wrap up in a sheet. I am not complaining about anyone wishing to wear garb. I am complaining that they are forced to. I recall reading once in national Geographic, about how the Saudi women cover up for men but when they get together, they toss the garb and are dressed for each other with the makeup and fancy clothing. They said they tire of not being able to express their femininity. I wonder how we feel about their personal feelings on that.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the freedom to lift one's shirt for plastic beads at Mardi Gras and get catcalls from men if that's what the women choose to do. It's a judgement call perhaps, but I don't think any less of them my own self. They harm no one. I see no one addressed the men who beg them to lift their shirts and I think that says something even for our western world.

We Westerners take a lot of abuse for our ways, especially these days, but I stand behind the notion that everyone the world over deserves human rights and the freedom to live the way they choose. This may not be everyone's way and I will surely be accused of being pompously American but I do think it's been shown to be the better way.

[koan]

RedGlitter;722022 wrote: Koan, you realize by not reporting those rapes, you allowed the rapist(s) to go free to possibly (and likely) rape another woman? You made that judgement call for all other women. I am very surprised and incredibly disappointed to know that. That's all I'm going to say about it.


That is so simple minded. Theoretically, all members of society should feel safe, know that justice is served by the courts and see appropriate punishments for crimes. Realistically it just doesn't happen. You really think they would have been found guilty with no witnesses and no immediate evidence? I didn't run to the hospital and have their sperm taken from my person the moment it happened so where is my case? You think I didn't make them pay for what they did? :wah:

What is that they say about a woman scorned? You think all their acquaintances weren't told what they did and they have no social consequences to pay? You think my going through the questions and harassment of a court and trial would have done me or anyone else any good without enough evidence to convict them? Get a grip, woman!! You defeat your own arguments by pretending the world functions according to your idealistic visions.



I am amazed that we have gone from Saudi's poor policy of beating women to anorexia stats. What's that about? Besides completely different things. What is the point of living in a society that lacks freedom for all? I'm sure some women like it there, but when you know nothing else and have been brainwashed, an apple is just an apple and never a whole pie.
So they are all brainwashed... how absurd.

I was amazed that statements were made that North American women have a better lifestyle. Some women hate where they live and some women have been abused. Some of those women live in the United States too. The lack of anorexia in Saudi Arabia is directly related to the inability of naked models to flaunt themselves as the ideal body type and the lack of ability for most people to observe the body type of women in their culture until they have been married.



So much to address here. I'll probably miss something again. I do want to say that Saudi Arabia has no monopoly on modesty. Modesty is as much a personal code as it is a government/religious policy. There are many western women and women in other countries who claim modesty without having to wrap up in a sheet. I am not complaining about anyone wishing to wear garb. I am complaining that they are forced to. I recall reading once in national Geographic, about how the Saudi women cover up for men but when they get together, they toss the garb and are dressed for each other with the makeup and fancy clothing. They said they tire of not being able to express their femininity. I wonder how we feel about their personal feelings on that.
wrap up in a sheet? that is so revealing about your attitude.

I have trouble believing that you think what you just said there is an accurate view of what Saudi Arabian women think or feel as a whole. You know full well that I can go dig up numerous quotes from women who say they choose to wear their "sheet" and enjoy it.



I see absolutely nothing wrong with the freedom to lift one's shirt for plastic beads at Mardi Gras and get catcalls from men if that's what the women choose to do. It's a judgement call perhaps, but I don't think any less of them my own self. They harm no one. I see no one addressed the men who beg them to lift their shirts and I think that says something even for our western world.

We Westerners take a lot of abuse for our ways, especially these days, but I stand behind the notion that everyone the world over deserves human rights and the freedom to live the way they choose. This may not be everyone's way and I will surely be accused of being pompously American but I do think it's been shown to be the better way.


I don't think that's been shown at all. I've been convinced recently that North America is disintegrating before our eyes. Our society is decadent, self indulgent and incapable of surviving.

[freetobeme]

I wondered about that too, to be raped numerous times is very sad, and not report any of them is strange. I think I can understand not wanting to go through the court system, but to let it go a number of times....

I don't see any moral equivalency between public lashings and anorexia, there's a big difference between recognizing evil treatment and subjugation of women, and a physiological dysfunction,



visit me here

[koan]

anorexia is directly related to the poor self image that western women acquire as a result of living in a "free" society.



I moved on with my life.

I just had the misfortune of encountering a few assholes. As the victim I had to decide how victimised I was going to be.

[RedGlitter]

koan;722039 wrote: anorexia is directly related to the poor self image that western women acquire as a result of living in a "free" society.






You say that like it's factual and I disagree. It's a disorder contributed to in part by living in a society that prizes a certain body type and penalizes those who don't possess it. It is not the product of living in a free society. That's ludicrous.

[koan]

RedGlitter;722040 wrote: You say that like it's factual and I disagree. It's a disorder contributed to in part by living in a society that prizes a certain body type and penalizes those who don't possess it. It is not the product of living in a free society. That's ludicrous.


you'll notice that I put quotes around the word "free" indicating that I was using it in a non literal way.

[koan]

Jester;722062 wrote: I apologize for opening the door to make this so personal for you. I am also very sorry you were the victim of rape and I hope a hundred times more good comes to you than was taken from you. However in your situation you had the right to justice and you had the method under rule of law to seek justice, the fact that you did not avail yourself of the rule of law does not change the fact that you had a right to it and the possibility of it happening. In Saudi Arabia you would not have had that choice without the risk of being executed yourself. I see that you are most annoyed at the fact that the female client in this case was lashed and not the lawyer who gave the advice. I think you’d be more annoyed, possibly even outraged, that it’s a risk of bodily harm to make an appeal. Why is it ok to punish someone for questioning authority? If that is not oppressive I do not know what is.


No need to apologise. I wouldn't have brought up my personal experience if it caused me unpleasant emotions in the present.

Having a right to justice and having justice carried out are entirely different matters.

If I'd been born in Saudi Arabia, none of those rapes would have happened as I would not have been alone with the men at the time. I may well have been raped in other ways but none of the times I experienced would have been possible. I actually have gained a lot of respect for why they hold that to be an important social factor. It's not because they don't trust the women, it's because they want them to be protected.

I'm annoyed that the lawyer put his client's best interests secondary to his own agenda. I think the girl should file grievance against him to reduce her own sentence.

[koan]

Jester;722063 wrote: Anorexia is a result of poor parenting, and a failure to teach a child that inner beauty is far more important than outer beauty. Anorexia doesn’t exist on the same level in Saudi Arabia because women do not have control over their own bodies. They simply cannot choose to be anorexic. These comparisons’ are not beneficial to the argument unless both societies have the same freedoms


What? They can't choose to stop eating? :wah:

Yes, poor parenting based on the cultural norms of Western society. People are saying women are better off in N America than in S Arabia and I'm showing an instance in which women are better off in S Arabia. It is entirely relevant.

[watermark]

I read about this somewhere recently and didn't read the whole story nor the whole thread put down here. I'm being reactionary now. No basis for my reaction at all whatsoever. But I don't want to read any more about this case.

This woman was a victim of rape. Got it? She was taken down by a man and he raped her. Is this clear? He put his dick into her against her permission. Is this questioned?

As a result she was punished.

Fair?

God grant me serenity

[koan]

watermark;722067 wrote: I read about this somewhere recently and didn't read the whole story nor the whole thread put down here. I'm being reactionary now. No basis for my reaction at all whatsoever. But I don't want to read any more about this case.

This woman was a victim of rape. Got it? She was taken down by a man and he raped her. Is this clear? He put his dick into her against her permission. Is this questioned?

As a result she was punished.

Fair?

God grant me serenity


there were two crimes.

she was not punished for being raped, she was punished for being alone in a car with an unrelated male. the person she was alone with did not rape her and she was there of her own choosing.

[koan]

Jester;722068 wrote: You can never assume justice will not be carried out if you do not act on the process.

You do not know if the rapes to you would have happened or not, the fact that rapes occur in Saudi Arabia is well established. You may or may not have based on the circumstances. I to think it is a great responsibility to protect women, but not at the level that it removes all hope of their freedom. All women want to be protected, but not all women want protection at the expense of choosing everything for them.

Again the outrage should be directed at the fact that one risks punishment in an appeal. Knowing all you now know about Saudi Arabia would you prefer to be born there as a woman?


I can assume anything I wish. That's what everyone in this thread has done.

Why do you think you told me something I didn't know?

[koan]

oh, in answer to your silly question:

If I were not who I am then I wouldn't care where I was born.

Being who I am with attachment to a person in the US I am currently choosing the US over any other country but if I had been born in Saudi Arabia I wouldn't have the same motivations for my choice so it is a very silly question to ask.

[watermark]

koan;722069 wrote: there were two crimes.

she was not punished for being raped, she was punished for being alone in a car with an unrelated male. the person she was alone with did not rape her and she was there of her own choosing.


thanks for clarifying. sounds like a confusing case. so i don't want to get involved. there are enough of you already who can determine what the problem is, no? i will say though that it is a sin to be in a car with an unrelated male, says so in the bible and the qaran-sp?. that woman was asking for it!

E

[koan]

Jester;722073 wrote: No, they cannot choose to stop eating.
I'm sorry, your assertion needs some proof. I'm not sure how to go about showing that they may choose to stop eating... if you can come up with a solution I'd be grateful.



Women are better off in N. America than Saudi Arabia, no doubt in my mind. They have the freedom to choose Anorexia or not, most do not. They have the right to choose who they marry and who they trust to take them on an errand. They have a right to appeal without fear of increased punishment. They have the right not to be beaten for the simplest errors in life. Like burning dinner or not ironing the right lines in a man’s shirt. If that same situation occurred in the US the woman would not be a criminal, just a victim.


You are welcome to your judgment. I still don't think marriage stats in N America are anything to brag about.

I've never said that I think Saudi Arabia has got a great social system, all I'm saying is that the USA doesn't either.

[koan]

watermark;722074 wrote: i will say though that it is a sin to be in a car with an unrelated male, says so in the bible and the qaran-sp?. that woman was asking for it!

E


:wah:

that's awesome!

[koan]

koan;722075 wrote: I'm sorry, your assertion needs some proof. I'm not sure how to go about showing that they may choose to stop eating... if you can come up with a solution I'd be grateful.




actually, jester, scratch that ... the link I posted earlier stating that it is not a problem in Saudi Arabia actually stated that they found a case but it was extremely rare. So, against all odds, I managed to prove you wrong.

[RedGlitter]

Please. It was a perfectly valid question Koan, and you know it. It seems to me you're just annoyed that someone else seems to have a better understanding of how things work over there. Your answer is what was silly.

[RedGlitter]

watermark;722074 wrote: thanks for clarifying. sounds like a confusing case. so i don't want to get involved. there are enough of you already who can determine what the problem is, no? i will say though that it is a sin to be in a car with an unrelated male, says so in the bible and the qaran-sp?. that woman was asking for it!

E


Erin, do you actually believe that? That any woman is asking to be violated because she trusted a man enough to behave properly that she was in his company?