JonBenet Ramsey case

lady cop
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JonBenet Ramsey case

Post by lady cop »

this case has never been solved. it is convoluted and complicated. you may recall the little 6 year old beauty queen, dressed like a hooker in child pageants, who was horribly murdered on Christmas night in her family home in boulder, colorado 1996. the unbelievable 'ransom note'. the botched investigation the weird happenings and political BS in DA office. do you have an opinion? i have believed from DAY ONE the parents did it. but the cast of characters is fascinating. i hope to see this resolved in my lifetime... discussion?
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Post by BabyRider »

I am with you LC. I thought the parents were neck-deep in this, too. I really love your analogy: "dressed like a hooker in child pageants". Sick and wrong, displaying children like they would show dogs. (No offense, Rachelg)

What are the chances something will develop in that case after all this time, LC?
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lady cop
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JonBenet Ramsey case

Post by lady cop »

there are some devoted people who strive for justice in this case...i fear it will not be found on this earth. the only way the truth will be known to us is if patsy finally snaps and spills her guts. but john keeps her very very close to the vest. he knows she is on the edge.
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Post by lady cop »

the day they buried that little girl they went on CNN. here is what set my BS detector off...patsy was clearly drugged out of her mind, ok i can see that. but 3 times john said "i want to know why"...well who gives a damn WHY? you only care about "why" if you know the killer. he did NOT say "i want to know WHO". so all my alarms went off and ever since i have observed them lying through their teeth. john even had the balls to run for office (and lose) in michigan last year. they were on national tv and patsy was confronted with a lie and john jumped right in to prevent her from answering. he controls her completely.
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rachelg
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Post by rachelg »

I thought I heard recently (within the last 2 mos) that the dna had proven it wasn't either of the parents. Was that not a creditable report? :confused:
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Post by lady cop »

rachelg wrote: I thought I heard recently (within the last 2 mos) that the dna had proven it wasn't either of the parents. Was that not a creditable report? :confused:
nope...red herring. it had to do with a tiny mixed DNA sample in her underwear that was unidentifiable. don't listen to the spin. it neither proved or disproved anything whatsoever.
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Post by libertine »

I think it was the brother..maybe accidently...and the parents covered it up for whatever reason. He was only slightly older than JonBenet.

Lady Cop is right.. we will probably NEVER know what happemed.
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Post by gmc »

I remember one of the better known UK chief constables talking about it. Two points that the parents would not have a choice about being questioned or any say as to what went on, it seemed to him that they were not investigated properly-how true that is I don't know. Also that the whole child pageant thing was disturbing as it was a paedophiles paradise that is incomprehensible that it would be tolerated in the UK.
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Post by Der Wulf »

My guess has been Patsy, motive, jelousy. momma was living vicariously through Jon Benet. Could be that JB was getting too much attention, kinda like creating a little frankenstein [in Patsy's mind.] Why did it happen in that time frame? Could be momma was getting some attention, and JB interfered.



Why the hell can't people just let kids be kids? Me thinks that parents who push their kids to compensate for their own shortcomings, or failed dreams, should have their kids taken away. Success aint happiness unless you are following your own dream. How many psychotics, and neurotics have these type parents created? :mad: :-5
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Post by Gabs »

I have always thought that the brother knew more than he was saying too. I think all three of them are knee deep in this. maybe the brother did it, or maybe he saw WHO did it. We will prob. never know and it is sad, such a pretty little girl whose life ended all too soon. :mad:
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Post by along-for-the-ride »

TV shows explore shocking new theories on JonBenet Ramsey case | Fox News

What do you think about these current findings?
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Post by magentaflame »

Havent seen it yet, only advertising for it. Ive put ten dollars down that they wont answer the question of her death......itll just be another crappy show that specific people will get a bit of fame and money from.

I figure ill watch the last 20 minutes of the two part series and double my money.

Btw, i think doctor Phil is a psych industry whore ....no value whats so ever.
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Post by Momus »

along-for-the-ride;1501406 wrote: TV shows explore shocking new theories on JonBenet Ramsey case | Fox News

What do you think about these current findings?


By coincidence, i watched the first two episodes myself. It appears, each one, is to present the facts of those who most came under the spotlight. I have also viewed JonBenét's autopsy photographs on the internet to find out more, but i would advise caution before doing likewise. The case has intrigued me for many years, simply due to this being one of the most memorable unsolved murders. In her autopsy photographs, JonBenet has two distinctive black marks, a perfect circle, one being on the face near her ear. She did not have these prior to her death. When compared with photographic evidence of other victims, these marks indicate a stun gun was used initially. She was strangled by cord and a paintbrush to apply leverage. Her skull was broken and she had blood in her panties when found. I would immediately rule out the parents first. The child was either tortured or these injuries applied after death. The claim by police that Patsy Ramsey flew into a rage due to JB wetting the bed, is absurd. The child had wet the bed most nights of her six year life. It's inconceivable to myself, that of all the nights Patsy would have flown into a rage, would be the Christmas night when most people are jolly with the spirit of yuletide. She had years to fly into a rage a wet bed, and had not before. To suggest, she struck the child in anger, could be remotely considered, yet to suggest that Patsy or John then tortured her is way off beam. JB by all accounts, was adored by her parents and her beauty pageant career, was the pride of Patsy's life. She would in effect, have been killing the golden goose. Again, with John Ramsey, he was an extremely loving father and i doubt he would defile his little girls body, just to fool police. If you inadvertently kill your six year old daughter by lashing out, rational, sane people, such as the Ramsey's would not be able to immediately use a process of thought, to plan to cover up, in the immediate aftermath. They would typically be devastated, leaving both unable to think straight. It is recorded that when police arrived, Patsy was on the porch carrying JB, wailing like a banshee. I do not believe it possible, for sane, educated people, to switch from cunning, covering up, to distraught in the space of half an hour. I would rule them out, completely. Next, is the son Burke Ramsey. Police suggest that he was annoyed by JB and lashed out at her with a torch. The fact that he once hit JB with a golf club apparently adds weight to this theory, although John Ramsey states, this incident was an accident. Burke was a young child himself at the time and JB's smashed skull, for myself, would have required greater force than that of a young boy. For Burke to be the killer, again, it's highly unlikely that a young child, would have had the thought process in the aftermath, to plant evidence to cover up. Another claim involved the killer being Burke, with Patsy and John staging the murder scene and defiling her corpse, to cover up for him. I doubt, any parent, having just seen their child kill their daughter, would have a sane thought process in order to do that. Next, is the prison inmate, John Karr, who calls himself Daxit, who confessed to her murder. By his own testimony, for myself, is too detailed. No DNA from Karr was ever found on JB but she did have a third party DNA on her body. Next is the strange santa. He knew the layout of the house as JB had given him a tour once before. Despite being weirder than weirder, he had acted as santa at the Ramsey's home before and the Ramsey's along with most people in Boulder. knew him well. For myself, he knew the Ramsey's well and most child killers are opportunists. Most do not know the parents when they abduct and murder a child at random. I myself would rule him out. I doubt that he could have killed the child knowing the parents well and how her death would affect them. Next, is Michael Helgoth, a 26 year old who's family had the scrapyard. It's rumoured that he made a tape where he confessed to killing JB but he had an accomplice. Helgorth was found dead two days after the murder,and it ruled suicide, although one of the original investigators, stated that the gun was found on his right side, but the path of the bullet, was in the direction of left to right. The theory that he too was murdered by the accomplice looks the most likely. You asked for thoughts. How do you see it, along for the ride?
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Post by magentaflame »

Two things there,.......and before i go further i only know the story because of cherry picking of the media.

The 'santa' you refer to. Peodoes often befriend parents of children to gain access to a child.its very common. They will usually part take in activities that children are involved in to gain access.

Secondly, it is also quite common (and im assuming the suicide weapon was a pistol?) For the firearm not to be anywhere near the body. Often flying out of the hand, can land anywhere. Its a hollywood myth that firearms are still in the hand or close to the body. Once youve shot yourself you dont have control over the kickback of the pistol.
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Post by magentaflame »

Those photos arent to bad. (Ive seen a hell of a lot worse).... the ligiture knot is interesting though. The person who tied that has done it before.

Poor little mite.

In my uneducated opinion . The person who did that did not want a live being. Whatever was done to her post mortem was definately the pount of the exercise.
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Post by Momus »

magentaflame;1501416 wrote: Two things there,.......and before i go further i only know the story because of cherry picking of the media.

The 'santa' you refer to. Peodoes often befriend parents of children to gain access to a child.its very common. They will usually part take in activities that children are involved in to gain access.

Secondly, it is also quite common (and im assuming the suicide weapon was a pistol?) For the firearm not to be anywhere near the body. Often flying out of the hand, can land anywhere. Its a hollywood myth that firearms are still in the hand or close to the body. Once youve shot yourself you dont have control over the kickback of the pistol.


The original investigation officer with experience of ballistics, stated that the bullet trajectory was left to right, ie the bullet entered the left hand side of the head. Firearms simply do not go flying off. Some suicide cases of self inflicted gunshot to the head, drop the gun, and some don't. It comes down to which part of the brain has been interrupted. If he shot himself in the head, he could have missed the part of the brain that induces Cadaveric spasm, and dropped the gun, but it would most likely drop to which side it was fired from. If the part of the brain was hit that induces Cadaveric spasm, the victims hand instantaneously, tightens his grip on the gun. It is this spasm that determines whether death from gunshot to the head, is a suicide, or murder. Upon autopsy, the coroner determines which part of the brain was hit. If they locate the bullet in an area that does not induce Cardaveric spasm, and the gun has fallen, then it's safe to assume suicide. If the bullet hit the area of the brain that induces the spasm, and the gun is dropped, chances are, it would be homicide staged as suicide.
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Post by magentaflame »

The police officer? Or detective with ballistics training......id want to know more about that officer before speculating.

But regardless, i have not seen the incident scene photos. So was it a rifle type firearm or pistol? Are there available scene photos of this incident?

Btw, do you realise you just agreed with me in saying the firearm can fall anywhere. And you also agree that its never safe to assume suicide.
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Post by ZAP »

It sounds like some sound reasoning and logical deductions on Momus' part.
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Post by Momus »

magentaflame;1501419 wrote: The police officer? Or detective with ballistics training......id want to know more about that officer before speculating.

But regardless, i have not seen the incident scene photos. So was it a rifle type firearm or pistol? Are there available scene photos of this incident?


Then do some research dear.
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Post by Momus »

magentaflame;1501416 wrote: Two things there,.......and before i go further i only know the story because of cherry picking of the media.

The 'santa' you refer to. Peodoes often befriend parents of children to gain access to a child.its very common. They will usually part take in activities that children are involved in to gain access.




Further more, my words were " Most do not know the parents when they abduct and murder a child at random." Pedophile's do often befriend the parent to get access to the children, , correct, but i did not say pedophile. I said 'abduct and murder'. Those words indicate i am talking about a killer. Pedophiles will befriend parents in order to groom and sexually assault a child, true. This is a case of murder, not sexual abuse. Therefore, i do not believe that santa knowing the parents well, would have betrayed them in such a horrific manner. I use the word abduct, as the Ramsey's stated that the suitcase found by the basement window, was not there before. It is also claimed that Helgorth bragged to friends prior, that he was about to come into big bucks. It's possible that the theory of them attempting to abduct the child and hold the Ramsey's to a ransom, is the true account of events. JB for a child, was well known to all in her county as the star of beauty pageants. Just the sort of treasure, that the wealthy would indeed pay a ransom to get back. It's possible, the plan failed down in the basement, when they believed she had died from the head injury.
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Post by magentaflame »

Yeah, cant see that happening though. You stated the parents not having the piece of mind to stage such a scene. I cant see abductors dong the same if the crime was botched.

The injuries to that child, in my opinion, were deliberate not frenzied. Someone definatelt wanted that child dead. I dont think there was torture before death, but a fantasy being acted out.

Would be interesting to compare other crimes similar to this one worldwide.

Abductors dont bring that kind of equipment to abduct someone......the ligiture doesnt fit an abduction.
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Post by Momus »

magentaflame;1501425 wrote: Yeah, cant see that happening though. You stated the parents not having the piece of mind to stage such a scene. I cant see abductors dong the same if the crime was botched.

The injuries to that child, in my opinion, were deliberate not frenzied. Someone definatelt wanted that child dead. I dont think there was torture before death, but a fantasy being acted out.

Would be interesting to compare other crimes similar to this one worldwide.

Abductors dont bring that kind of equipment to abduct someone......the ligiture doesnt fit an abduction.


You are missing the point entirely here. It is inconceivable for the parents to defile the body. Remember, the theory of the police, being that either Patsy Ramsey or the brother Burke had lashed out at JB in anger, causing the smashed skull, and then the parents defiled her corpse in order to make it appear that she had fallen prey to a sexual assault and murder. ie, their actions following the lashing out at her, would be actions to cover up, and not to perform any sick act on her. On the other hand, Helgorth and his accomplice, would not be covering up an accident of lashing out, but carrying out the torture for real, had either one, or both of them, been a sick pedophile. The original investigators agree the mark on her face could have been a stun gun, and used to immobilise her when they took her from her bed where she was sleeping. Have you seen the size of a stun gun ? They are the size of a regular hand held torch and small enough to put in a pocket upon leaving, hence no stun gun at the scene. If they stunned her in her bedroom after getting into the house through the basement window, and it was a planned abduction for ransom, they could have carried her down to the basement to leave by the basement window, the same as they came in. Their was a shoe imprint found in the snow outside the basement window that has never been traced. Once down in the basement with her, one or both may have decided to have some fun and torture her after they found they couldn't get her back through the window. The paint brush was not brought with them, but was belonging to the Ramsey's, which means it would have been used at the scene as it was to hand. The size of the house could also mean, that they could have carried this out in the basement without being heard or seen. Something went wrong down in that basement but for myself, i believe it was a botched abduction for ransom.
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Post by magentaflame »

Im not pointing the finger at anyone.im just playing devils advocate based on mmy own knowledge of criminal activities and incidents ive been shown and involved in over many years.

I noticed on one of those autopsy photos, one of the members put a photo up of Jon whilst still alive and she seemed to have the same kind of 'stun gun markings on her legs .

I dont know .....im only going off the research material you provided.and what ive heard over the years .

Personally i believe they'll never find the perp because theyre not meant to.
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Post by Momus »

magentaflame;1501431 wrote: Im not pointing the finger at anyone.im just playing devils advocate based on mmy own knowledge of criminal activities and incidents ive been shown and involved in over many years.

I noticed on one of those autopsy photos, one of the members put a photo up of Jon whilst still alive and she seemed to have the same kind of 'stun gun markings on her legs .

I dont know .....im only going off the research material you provided.and what ive heard over the years .

Personally i believe they'll never find the perp because theyre not meant to.


I did not say anywhere that she had stun gun markings on her legs. Why do you continue to fail to read and absorb? She did have markings on her legs but nowhere have experts, autopsy or police officers, reported the marks on her legs, were from a stun gun and neither did i. I stated one of the marks that indicated a stun gun had been used, was on her face by her ear. Have you seen all of the autopsy photographs? If you also read her full autopsy report, it's recorded that she had abrasion and vascular congestion of vaginal mucosa. It does not confirm she was sexually abused but was apparently consistent with her vagina being scraped roughly. A pubic hair was found on her body that did not match any of the Ramsey's. The abrasions on her legs and body in autopsy were attributed to her being dragged along the basement floor. She had DNA evidence under her fingernails that also do not match any of the Ramsey's. The official conclusion was that she died of the strangulation and not the head injury and that would say, she was not necessarily rendered unconscious by the blow to the head. Without the strangulation, she would have died eventually from the head injury, as swelling to the brain was in process. She was found with duct tape over her mouth, indicating that she was conscious in that basement and in danger of screaming and being heard. The rope and duct tape were not the Ramsey's either but could suggest, the intruders arrived with them and left with them as an abduction kit for a pre-planned kidnap. What is clear after 20 years, is the incompetence of the police in failing to secure the murder scene and contaminating evidence. The single factor to the finger of suspicion being pointed at the Ramsey's is the undigested pineapple in her stomach. Forensics claimed from this, that she ate the pineapple an hour and a half before her death when the Ramsey's were in the house after coming home. They now know that digestion can vary between different people and this time estimation could now be false.
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Post by Momus »

It appears, one must partake of a slice of humble pie. I downloaded the final installment and viewed it last night. I was wrong, very wrong. The new evidence and forensic advancements over the past 20 years, have convinced me who the killer was. I won't give the game away as some here may not have seen it yet, so i will just say, i was wrong and it was, someone in that Ramsey house, after all.
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Post by LarsMac »

magentaflame;1501431 wrote: Im not pointing the finger at anyone.im just playing devils advocate based on mmy own knowledge of criminal activities and incidents ive been shown and involved in over many years.

I noticed on one of those autopsy photos, one of the members put a photo up of Jon whilst still alive and she seemed to have the same kind of 'stun gun markings on her legs .

I dont know .....im only going off the research material you provided.and what ive heard over the years .

Personally i believe they'll never find the perp because theyre not meant to.


They covered that. The marks did not match the stun gun. That piece of evidence shot down my favorite notion of what happened.

However, I still hold that the boy did it, accidentally, and the dad made a grand effort to make it look like an outsider had done it.

The mom slept through the whole event, and never had a clue.
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Post by Momus »

LarsMac;1501443 wrote: They covered that. The marks did not match the stun gun. That piece of evidence shot down my favorite notion of what happened.

However, I still hold that the boy did it, accidentally, and the dad made a grand effort to make it look like an outsider had done it.

The mom slept through the whole event, and never had a clue.


You are correct Sir. Only the boy did not do it accidentally, it was in rage, and the parents covered up. I have to say, i am shocked. I always believed that the parents would not have been able to hold a same thought process after knowing their child had killed their daughter, and it just shows how wrong i was. They found a hand held torch on the kitchen counter that night. Police did originally believe that she was struck with this as it was next to that bowl of pineapple, that was digesting in her system. I never believed, that an 8 year old could smash a skull to that degree but a reconstruction, on a similar aged skull, covered with skin and hair, produced the exact same injury found in her skull, which was an odd shaped hole, and split running through to the back. She had no abrasion, cuts or blood on the scalp and that threw me off also. The pathologist showed that with a young child, as the head of the torch struck her,making the hole, the scalp would yield into the hole, with the blow and then retain it's shape. He also showed that for a child of her age, it would not take a great force to create that injury to her skull. This explains a lot. The torch next to the bowl of pineapple, explains away the undigested pineapple in her stomach, so it would appear, that some kind of fallout between the brother and sister took place at that counter. When he aligned the torch with the skull injury, the hole and torch matched exactly. The most damning new evidence came from enhancement of the emergency call Patsy Ramsey made reporting her daughter had been kidnapped and was missing. When she made that call, she believed that she had hung up, but there was several seconds where she didn't know, the operator was still on the line and could hear background conversation. The operator was never contacted once by the police at the time, but she always insisted, after Patsy believed she had hung up, she heard her say " ok we've called the police, now what?" There was then a short conversation that for twenty years, was inaudible. The Ramsey's always insisted that the boy was asleep in bed when they got home and found the ransom letter and he slept through everything. With advancements in technology, they now have been able to refine and amplify the short conversation. I listened to the advancement on headphones and you can clearly hear, John Ramsey say " we're not talking to you", followed by Patsy Ramsey saying " what did you do, oh Jesus help me?" This was followed by the boy saying " what did you find?". The boy was not in bed asleep after all. His voice is plain as day on that tape, talking to his parents. The pathologist stated it was the blow that killed her and not the strangulation but she was immediately brain dead from the blow, with the heart still functioning for a short time as the brain was dying. That explains the ligature marks on her neck. In his interview, Burke Ramsey now in his twenties, naturally denies any involvement but that tape is damning right now. I am shocked at how the Ramsey's could go from distraught, to calm and clever, back to distraught, yet it appears, they did.
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Post by magentaflame »

Gut feeling here...... still doesnt sound right.

Have all police reports been released to the public?

Not just initial reports but homocide as well?

The tape means nothing to me because because you can hear it either way. If the boy is oblivious to whats going on , he could still say those words over something else entirely.
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Post by Momus »

magentaflame;1501448 wrote: Gut feeling here...... still doesnt sound right.

Have all police reports been released to the public?

Not just initial reports but homocide as well?

The tape means nothing to me because because you can hear it either way. If the boy is oblivious to whats going on , he could still say those words over something else entirely.


Don't be ridiculous. The short period of conversation when Patsy believed she had hung up, the operator is repeatedly calling Patsy, Patsy, Patsy. The rest is within that same call. Are you trying to suggest, that a mother phones the emergency services, extremely distraught reporting a kidnapping and a ransom note just found and then 30 seconds later, her and the boy are having an entirely different conversation about something else.?
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Post by magentaflame »

Nope.
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Post by along-for-the-ride »

I don't see this as a call for justice. Much too much time has passed. I do see this as a true American tragedy
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