spot;463858 wrote: If it were a question of that then it would be entirely rational. I do it myself. I'm talking about a lifetime of suspecting strangers by default rather than accepting them, the lost opportunities for social engagement, the colossal profits being gleaned by the corporations pushing the "be cautious, be vigilant, behave" message. Risk management depends on an ability to compare risks. You collectively watch each other with mindless suspicion while blithely ignoring the carnage on your turnpikes.
Your'e using "samantics" Spot. You're using " lifetime of suspecting strangers by default", in place of, "taking self preservation pracautions for life"! There's an old proverb: There are none so blind, as those who will not see! Taking self "precautions" is far from being gleaned by a message from corporations, (by the way how did corporations wind up in here?) and in no way looses the opportunity for social engagements! (In fact, it may even enhace it)
And yes we do tend to ignore the carnage on our turnpikes, otherwise we may not want to drive on them daily! However, many of us also take & use "precautions" on the turnpikes as well!!! Self preservation ya know!
Not to belabor this topic, I agree that you will always tend to disagree. This will be my last post on this topic!
(And I'd expect your reply to be: I agree, so as to cancel my decree)
SnoozeControl;463866 wrote: Spot did something very similar to a thread I started about homeless or abandoned animals in Lebanon.That was the thread, as I recall, which directly resulted in the change of the TOS to prohibit the soliciting of "funds ... charitable or otherwise - on behalf of ... an organization of any kind". I may be wrong, of course, but BETA did seem to have overly high running costs for their very minimal (though widely publicized) intervention on the ground. It still strikes me as grotesque and inhumane that such an appeal should have run concurrently with the merciless slaughter of so many civilians, whether they were pet-owners or otherwise. Thank you for reminding us, Snooze.
"just how deserving the abandoned animals were" didn't come into anything I mentioned, if you go back and check.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
cars;463893 wrote: many of us also take & use "precautions" on the turnpikes as well!!! Self preservation ya know!Finally, an explanation for the number of Hummers in suburban America. One lives and learns.
"One lives and learns" is what I'm trying to recommend, of course. As opposed to avoiding life merely to survive.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
SnoozeControl;463933 wrote: Once again you're recklessly flinging inaccuracies around in an attempt to make your point... although what your point is is anyone's guess right now.
The TOS comment is incorrect, that 'rule' had already been in place and concerned 'soliciting funds' for personal use. Let me repeat that... PERSONAL use.And it was amended to the wording I gave. You do know it's been amended, I hope? I mentioned "the change of the TOS to prohibit", not the addition of a new clause. It's at http://www.forumgarden.com/terms.html in Section 6.SnoozeControl;463933 wrote: What are you trying to prove in THIS thread, Spot? LC and others gave excellent advice and gave it in the hopes it might help someone. You, on the other hand, aren't helpful at all.Elsie was scare-mongering again, the way she does. I added balance to the discussion.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
SnoozeControl;463954 wrote: I think it's apparent you're trying to stir in this thread and judging by other members' comments, your input isn't appreciated.The OP consists of a series of demands - "walk TALL and confidently", for example. "look people in the eye", "do NOT pick up even the most innocuous looking hitch-hiker!". It's a litany of commandments. I've been injecting an alternative risk assessment that suggests people should begin elsewhere. I've provided first-hand experience where behaving otherwise has brought benefits both to myself and to members of my family.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
lady cop;463949 wrote: elsie...how witty.Is that the wrong pronunciation of LC? Surely people have been using that abbreviation for years on FG.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The following is a list of the questions which are asked on a survey to assess irrational fear of rape. The study's purpose is to address the debilitating effect that this fear imposes upon women in society. I found that the "advice" of this thread was promoting many of the instances on this questionnaire that lend to irrational and debilitating behaviour.
1. Before I go to bed at night I double check to make sure the doors are securely locked. *
2. When someone rings/knocks at my door I ask who it is (or look through the peephole) before I open the door. *
3. I think twice before going out for a walk late at night. *
4. If I have to take the subway/bus alone at night I feel anxious. *
5. I avoid going out alone at night. *
6. I ask friends to walk me to my car/the subway if it is late at night. **
7. I think about the shoes/clothes I am wearing in terms of my ability to run in a dangerous situation. *
8. In general, how safe do you feel at night? ***
9. When I am walking alone I think about where I would run if someone came after me. *
10. I have turned down invitations/opportunities because I didn't want to risk coming home alone afterwards. **
11. I feel confident walking alone late at night. *
12. I am especially careful of wearing the "proper" clothes. *
13. If I was waiting for an elevator and it arrived with one man alone inside, I would wait for the next one. *
14. I am wary of men. *
15. I am afraid of being sexually assaulted. *
16. How safe would you feel walking to your car alone if it was parked in an underground parking lot? ***
17. If I have to walk outside late at night I take precautions. *
18. In general, I am suspicious of men. *
19. If it was dark and I had to walk to my car, I would make sure I was accompanied by someone I trusted. *
20. If I was driving alone and I had to park my car I would try to park on a well lit street. *
21. How safe do you feel going into public washrooms in subways or malls? ***
22. How safe do you feel in your apartment/house when you are by yourself? ***
23. I am afraid of men. *
24. I carry objects (keys, knife, something sharp) when I walk alone at night. *
25. When I'm walking out alone at night I am very cautious. **
26. If I heard that someone had been sexually assaulted in my neighbourhood, I wouldn't leave the house unless I really had to. **
27. When I am choosing a seat on the bus or subway I am conscious of who is sitting nearby. *
28. How safe do you feel being out alone in your neighbourhood at night? ***
29. If I am going out late at night, I avoid certain parts of town. *
30. When I get on the bus/streetcar/subway I take a seat that allows me to keep an eye on those sitting nearby. *
31. The possibility of rape affects my freedom of movement. *
The scoring key:
* 5 point Likert-type scale: always to never - scored 0-4
** 2 point scale - True-False - scored 0-4. We would recommend in further testing this be altered to match the 5 point always-never scale.
*** 5 point Likert-type scale - very safe to very unsafe - scored 0-4
Norms
Total fear of rape scores were obtained by summing across all 31 items. Total FORS scores ranged from 20 to 112 with a mean of 64.44
The higher the score on this questionnaire the more debilitated the person. So...do we still suggest that people increase their score here?
Diuretic;464011 wrote: Quality of life as we'd like it to be v quality of life as it really is.I'll settle for "quality of life as it's perceived", if you like? I do think the earlier figures have relative weight, you know. I'm pleased the thread now has various contributions from alternative perspectives, too.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Diuretic;464011 wrote: Quality of life as we'd like it to be v quality of life as it really is.
Both spot's statistics pointing to the reality of the minimal chance a woman stands of being attacked and the classification by the above survey as such fear being debilitating transforms your statement to mean that the "likable state" would be one of irrational fear. Life without fear has has higher quality...it really does.
There is enough advice in the newspapers, from immediate family members, and from knowing of someone who got attacked to create a reasonable awareness. Going about encouraging that fear beyond what occurs as a result of the media is almost irresponsible in my opinion. But then sociologists are just starting to wake up to that. There are now clinics that offer "Rape Fear" counselling to help women live normal lives. It is said to be alarmingly common as a syndrome nowadays and that it includes many women who have never been assaulted or even close to an assault.
We are talking about a new phenomenon of mental illness that affects roughly half the population.
Diuretic;464050 wrote: Encouraging fear as a concept is problematic. When does engendering an awareness of crime and the need to take precautions become "encouraging fear"? Is it only in the eye of the beholder?
It becomes "encouraging fear", imo, when it tells women how to do such basic things as walk (TALL), talk (eye contact) and wear their clothing (handbags)
spot;463391 wrote: Fearmongering does keep rearing its ugly head, doesn't it. I'd be delighted if someone did something productive about it on your side of the pond though I have very little confidence that you'll recover your collective nerve.
Sorta like this?:
"So what's the government going to do to make voters safer? One solution came from the Home Office in April 1999 in the form of "Anti-Social Behaviour Orders" - special court orders intended to deal with people who cannot be proven to have committed a crime, but whom the police want to restrict anyway. Behaviour Orders can, among other things, prohibit a person from visiting a particular street or premises, set a curfew, or lead to a person's eviction from his home.
Violation of a Behaviour Order can carry a prison sentence of up to five years.
Prime Minister Tony Blair is now proposing that the government be allowed to confine people proactively, based on fears of their potential dangerousness."
Is that Order still in effect? What was the name of that movie? Oh yeah, Minority Report .
When choosing between two evils, I always like to take the one I've never tried before.
Diuretic;464072 wrote: And the alternative is.........?
Not being argumentative or difficult here, just trying to work this out in my own mind as well.
Is it best for public agencies to keep this information to themselves? Isn't it appropriate to have the information available to those who want to use it? Does publicising its availability somehow create a climate of fear?
There's a real problem in trying to strike the right balance.
The alternative is to try and report these sorts of crimes in the media proportionally to the amount of times it happens. Then for people to go about living their lives normally instead of fearing things that aren't likely to happen and that happen randomly.
I was eating a salad this afternoon. I could have choked on it. Should I be aware of that and make sure to chew on each bite a certain number of times. Certainly it is supposed to be better for my digestion but I would also not enjoy spending every meal counting the times my teeth touch and enjoying the taste.
I fear nothing except death and taxes, and I really don't fear them much any more.
Do I take precautions in my everyday activities you bet your ass I do.:driving: Case in point I was at an intersection in the main entrance of a huge shopping mall here called "Fashion Valley" I was in the line to make a left turn so I could park and go into MACYS. There is a busy resturant on my right and bus stop packed with people.
There was no car behind and only 1 in front of me. I look up to move forward when a you man wearing glasses and dressed nicely crosses the intersection and as I'm moving forward he makes a quick left and moves down the side of my car and attemps to open the door violently. You bet I was happy my door was locked, and my window was up. The car in front of me advanced and I stepped on the gas almost dragging the idiot with me. I then reported it to mall security, and the police. Did any of the bystanders see this happen NO, thats how fast and slick this guy was. He had done the same thing at several of the other entrances to the mall. My guess my car was the target.
Has it stopped me from Shopping at Fashion Valley of course not.:driving:
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
Oh I forgot to mention that they caught the little creep the next weekend because of the great description I gave the Police.
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
Koan yes I believe my Car was the target. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have hurt me in some way to get my car which happen all to often in San Diego since I live in a city not 20 minutes from the Mexican Border.
Car Jackings, and killing or hurting the driver are high statistic because of location, location, location. :driving: So, yes as I take precations each day, and I will continue this, and shop at the Fashion Valley Mall beacuse they have the best sales in town.
Forgot to mention why San Diego has such a high statistic for stolen or hijacked cars. They drive them across the border and part them out. Big money is the parts business for cars. :driving:
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
Diuretic;464147 wrote: The car is only an example koan, a metaphor if you will. The bigger idea is not to be cowed but not to make oneself an easy target either.
The bigger idea of the thread was to imply that you make an easier target if you are a woman who doesn't walk, talk and carry her purse in a certain way. That is rather limiting.
You'll notice I didn't bring up whether car doors should or should not be locked. That wasn't one of the points of concern. I'll also point out that I agree that weapons shouldn't be carried but for vastly different reasons.
It is the way that those personal habits of how one walks, talks and carries accessories that push it past the line. And that has not been answered. The line crossed is the ability to live one's life in a normal fashion. As to cars, it is also suggested one put on a seatbelt and I take no issue to that suggestion. Locking doors is a good idea for men as well. For that reason I uphold it as good advice. We still haven't answered the issue at hand.
Diuretic;464178 wrote: Let's say, for the sake of argument, that criminologists have found that wearing a red jumper into the pub more often than not results in the wearer being assaulted in the pub. You can wear any colour jumper as long as it's not red and you won't be assaulted. Should people be told that? Or should we keep that information from the public because we don't want to upset anyone who owns a red jumper?
I've never owned a red jumper. There are many colours of jumpers that can be substituted. I can not however change (easily) the fact that I am a woman, that I walk, that I talk and that I sometimes need a handbag.
Diuretic;464178 wrote: Let's say, for the sake of argument, that criminologists have found that wearing a red jumper into the pub more often than not results in the wearer being assaulted in the pub.That was no red jumper, that was a Manchester United shirt.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
911;464075 wrote: Is that Order still in effect? What was the name of that movie? Oh yeah, Minority Report.An ASBO has nothing on the old Vagrancy Act of 1824 which we finally repealed three years ago, believe me.It defined idle and disorderly persons (it's what the police used to persecute vagrants with) and incorrigible rogues. A quarter-sessions judge didn't need evidence of a crime, if presented with the latter - he could hand down one year hard labour just by being shown that the defendant had been convicted twice by magistrates for being idle and disorderly and that the police now wanted him off the streets. An ASBO, by comparison, is more of an OBE in the circles where it's most often bestowed.
As for someone with a clean record being put away indefinitely solely on the say-so of a figure of authority... umm. Yes, OK, the authority is that of the Home Secretary and there's not *many* people in Belmarsh for that. Yet.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
1. Yes if you walk and talk and carry your purse a certain way here in the States your at more risk than those female/males who do pay attention to details. I will let you know that they even post in on signs in every mall here in San Diego on how to carry your purse, walk to your car, and get it and out of the mall safely without incident.
None of it is Rocket sicence by no means just an alert because there a those that will pick you out like the runt of the litter and you become the target, or get your car stolen or carjacked with your baby in the car seat in the back.
Is my 80 year old mother a prime target, you bet she is, do I let her go to a mall alone never. Do I look under my car, and in the back seat when I'm done shopping for the day without a doubt. Do I have my keys out and ready to open and enter my car as quickly as possible and locking the doors, no question.
Do I take everything that a thief may wan't out of my car prior to going shopping your damn right I do. Do I observe people in malls and the parking structures as I walk to my car YES, YES, YES... Do I take precautions with others that travel with me to shop, as to removing the baby from the car seat prior to exiting the car so your back is not turned, each and everytime. If there are other that can watch me or mom remove the baby from the seat they get out first and watch. There is nothing excessive or stupid about being aware, and informed and using precaution period. In my opinion it is what every male and female should do daily..:driving:
[QUOTE] For your review this is the latest warning issued to shoppers at Malls in the States
Ladies, please be careful! Brothers pass it on!
From the AP news wire.
Don't be surprised to see a naked woman walking out of a shopping mall restroom: The latest scam being perpetrated in our nations shopping malls is not the cost of gourmet ice cream cones or Harry Potter collectible figurines. With what is being called amazing regularity, victims of this new crime wave have been found walking out of shopping mall restrooms completely naked.
This has almost always been done by men to women, with a few exceptions. The way the scam works is, a man slips into a women's restroom and sneaks into a stall. He waits until there is only one woman in the restroom in a neighboring stall.
The criminal then stands on the toilet and points a hand gun into the next stall, demanding the woman's valuables. After getting her cash and jewelry, he demands that she remove all of her clothing and kick them out of the stall. The thief tosses the clothing into a shopping bag, hangs an out of order sign on the restroom door, and slips back into the mall.
The out of order sign ensures no one will soon come to the woman's rescue. It usually takes an hour or two for the woman to work up the nerve to leave the restroom in the nude, giving the criminal ample time to make his get away.
The woman is left naked and humiliated in a mall full of strangers. The best defense, say police, is to never go into a shopping mall restroom alone, as only women who are by themselves are targeted.
PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW. This has so far been a nearly perfect crime, as none of the perpetrators have been caught. Don't let this happen to another woman. [/QUOTE]
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
CARLA;464275 wrote: In my opinion it is what every male and female should do daily.It may sound a foolish question, carla, but do you prefer life that way? Would you not prefer a civil society based on common trust where the risks are so minimal that these precautions are no more or less likely to protect than mere chance? I'm sure it sounds foolish but a straight answer would be appreciated.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Comments: "From the AP news wire" this is not. The text offers no specifics, quotes no sources, cites no authorities. This isn't just bad journalism; it isn't journalism at all.
Even so, I dutifully searched for any sign that it ever appeared in newsprint and found nothing remotely resembling such a report. For a type of crime that's supposedly happening with such "amazing regularity," these forced disrobings in shopping mall restrooms are getting remarkably little media coverage. None at all, as a matter of fact.
in my work i have met many victims (also often known as 'the decedent') ...i've also known a lot of murderers. i have been accused of 'scare-mongering' here repeatedly. when in fact my intentions were no such thing. it is best if women in particular do not have a victim demeanor. it is best to appear aware and confident. purse-snatching is not uncommon, especially with the large population of elderly here. so yes, they should carry it close to the body.
lady cop;464339 wrote: in my work i have met many victims (also often known as 'the decedent') ...i've also known a lot of murderers. i have been accused of 'scare-mongering' here repeatedly. when in fact my intentions were no such thing. it is best if women in particular do not have a victim demeanor. it is best to appear aware and confident. purse-snatching is not uncommon, especially with the large population of elderly here. so yes, they should carry it close to the body.Lots better, that. A big improvement.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Spot I lived in a time where precautions were no more or less likely to protect than mere chance it was called the 50's and 60's. Will I ever see it again, not in my lifetime. To many people on the planet wanting what you have and taking it.
That was then this is now and I do prefer to be cautious in my daily activities, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying life one bit.
To the point I have taken charge of my families immediate saftey when they are with me period and that makes me comfortable. Has being aware and informed brought the crime rates down in our malls and on our streets yes, why because we the people have taken charge and stand up to these thugs and thiefs. Like I said I fear no one, but I'm not going to give them a chance at me or my family period.
Does this mean I can't trust my fellow man, hell no. It just means I have modified the way I do certain things now. Example I'm a native San Diegan born and raised here, there were no Malls until the 70's and then it was only one. I don't live in fear for one minute of a day. I just stay aware and informed.
[QUOTE]It may sound a foolish question, carla, but do you prefer life that way? Would you not prefer a civil society based on common trust where the risks are so minimal that these precautions are no more or less likely to protect than mere chance? I'm sure it sounds foolish but a straight answer would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
CARLA;464347 wrote: That was then this is now and I do prefer to be cautious in my daily activities, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying life one bit.Thank you carla. It turns out not to have been so foolish a question as it appeared, then.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
I've been away. Came back and started to read this thread, which I find a useful reminder. We had some problems at the Uni and women were given advice rather similar - by an Australian police officer - to what LadyCop suggested early on. Pity the thread then seemed to get hijacked.
One day I was driving along the main highway in Canberra and it was raining. I saw a pretty girl with long hair struggling with shopping bags and stopped to give her a lift. This in not something I would normally do, but all seemed fine. She turned out to be a bloke and a not very nice bloke. Shook me up a bit, and I am much more careful now.
We do live in a dangerous world. I try and trust people as much as possible. But at the same time, I think it's a really good idea to stay aware of one's surroundings, at all times, and to make a conscious effort not to look like a soft target - whichever country you're in. Avoid trouble, wherever you can, and if confronted - scream blue murder.
AussiePam;464706 wrote: Pity the thread then seemed to get hijacked.You mustn't blame Snooze too much, she's still very annoyed about the warzone pet charity. I'm sure she thought it was relevant to womens' safety in some way.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
(In fact, it may even enhace it)
