safety for women

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:20 pm

a thread by DG inspired this....i would like to talk about womens' safety. from rapists, from muggers, from carjackers. first thing....walk TALL and confidently! don't look like victim material. look people in the eye. don't carry any weapon that can be taken from you and used against you. don't buy that crap walmart pepper-spray. it's totally ineffectual. keep the car doors locked when you are driving. do NOT pick up even the most innocuous looking hitch -hiker! hold your purse close inside your body.( i won't even carry one.) don't leave it in shopping carts.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:03 pm

Thank you, LadyCop for such important info!

I um....have that pepper spray you speak of....I got mine off eBay. Is there a spray that does work?

I have read that if followed or someone is too close too you for your comfort, you should address them so they know you're aware of them. Is this correct?

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:31 pm

I'd like to add, have your keys out before you head out to the car so you aren't fumbling for them, be aware of your surroundings, and do not get distracted.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:49 am

RedGlitter;462802 wrote: Thank you, LadyCop for such important info!

I um....have that pepper spray you speak of....I got mine off eBay. Is there a spray that does work?

I have read that if followed or someone is too close too you for your comfort, you should address them so they know you're aware of them. Is this correct?first...Peg is very right about having your keys in hand! ........most pepper spray sold to the public is not as good as LE issued and gives a false sense of security...i don't like it because it will just aggravate the assailant. as for addressing a person too close to your comfort zone, no, just go where there are other people. followed like in a car? drive to the nearest police station. in fact...if an unmarked police car tries to stop you, signal that you see them, and drive to a populated area, if it's a real cop they will understand!

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:59 am

Thank you!

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:04 am

another thing...if someone confronts you, SCREAM BLOODY MURDER! they will usually run like hell.

beautyful · Post by **beautyful** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:58 am

Thanks for the advice Ladycop, sometimes I think I am a little careless when it comes to my own safety but then maybe I think oh it'll never happen to me! Thanks again!

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:10 am

When your out socializing.... never leave a glass untattended.

Uncle Kram · Post by **Uncle Kram** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:21 am

Lately, I've started to worry about this myself as my daughter is 14Â½. I think I'm going to find it hard to relax when she's out. I know she's got a life to live, but it's tough to let go of your protective instinct.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:26 am

I was stood, a couple of weeks ago, at the cross-roads by the marketplace in the centre of Beaconsfield, with a suitcase. Not having a detailed map, and being puzzled by contradictory street signs, I asked a passing pedestrian if she could point me toward the railway station. "I could", she said, "but it's a good quarter of an hour's walk... stay here while I get my car and I'll drop you there, it's on my way". And so she did, and it really was some way off. We discussed writers who had lived locally, she pointed out the house of G K Chesterton, and where Enid Blyton had lived before her house was demolished, and finally pulled into the station and delivered me to the ticket office. "Thank you very much", I said. "You're welcome", she said.

I suggest that "do NOT pick up even the most innocuous looking hitch-hiker" spreads fear beyond all reasonable boundaries. Either we live in a society or we live in a jungle. It's our own reactions to our surroundings that determine which it is, not the level of external threat. How do you reduce tension among your neighbours? By being neighbourly.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:28 am

If someone were in need of help such as there car is broke down, I would gladly send the cops to help them or call someone for them. I am not going to let them in the car with me. Too many times, I've heard neighbors of murderers, molesters, etc. say, "I never thought they'd be like that". I like living too much to risk my life that way when there are other safer alternatives.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:25 am

Spot, in your example you were not hitch-hiking. and you knew you were not a dangerous person. the lady took a chance. my advice here is to women traveling alone, i'm afraid it is a jungle over here in many ways. as for neighbors...i love to see friendly neighborhoods, i lived in a lovely one in Mass. currently my neighbors are people i have had to arrest, they don't like me much. oh well. in any case i'll stay with my advice for women not to pick up strangers on the road.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:29 am

lady cop;463000 wrote: Spot, in your example you were not hitch-hiking. and you knew you were not a dangerous person. the lady took a chance. my advice here is to women traveling alone, i'm afraid it is a jungle over here in many ways. as for neighbors...i love to see friendly neighborhoods, i lived in a lovely one in Mass. currently my neighbors are people i have had to arrest, they don't like me much. oh well. in any case i'll stay with my advice for women not to pick up strangers on the road.Only in America...

911 · Post by **911** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:11 am

spot;463089 wrote: Only in America...

That's not really a fair statement, Spot.

It became that way because we were so friendly to each other and then there were those that began taking advantage of others with a big heart. That could happen to anyone.

Who wouldn't stop to help a man with a broken leg on crutches pick up groceries he dropped? Several women did and now they're dead because Ted Bundy was a good looking man and very friendly.

Always yell "FIRE" if you're in trouble (unless it's in a crowded movie theater :wah: ). People will come out to watch a fire but not help when you're being raped or kidnapped.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

spot;462857 wrote: I suggest that "do NOT pick up even the most innocuous looking hitch-hiker" spreads fear beyond all reasonable boundaries. Either we live in a society or we live in a jungle. It's our own reactions to our surroundings that determine which it is, not the level of external threat. How do you reduce tension among your neighbours? By being neighbourly.

Hi Spot, a question. If she had been a man, would you have been just as comfortable getting in his car? Or were you more comfortable because she was a woman? Over here at least, a woman getting into a man's car is a no-no and most men understand the reasons for that. Women are taught from birth to be wary of strangers, especially strange men. It's ingrained in us. I have often wondered if men walk the earth feeling free and safe while women are burdened with suspecting a potential rapist or murderer in almost every man we pass. It's not that we don't want to be neighborly. It's that we really don't have that option with unknown men. What do you think?

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:30 am

RedGlitter;463145 wrote: What do you think?I think that if I were remotely concerned at the possibility of being attacked while travelling in the UK I'd not hitch-hike from one end of the country to the other. I think I first did it at fifteen, and the last time I stood at a trunk-route junction with my thumb out was last year. I rarely drive long distances alone without picking someone up, either - nearly always men, but not invariably. I must be several hundred times more likely to die in a wreck than as a result of hitching or hitchers, and I'm quite certain that's the case in the USA as well, for men and for women.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:35 pm

Please let me ask you if you would feel the same way about your son or daughter, at any age, getting rides from strangers? Not trying to provoke you if it sounds that way; I'm sincerely inquiring.

Thanks Spot.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:36 pm

RedGlitter;463145 wrote: Over here at least, a woman getting into a man's car is a no-no and most men understand the reasons for that. Women are taught from birth to be wary of strangers, especially strange men. It's ingrained in us. I have often wondered if men walk the earth feeling free and safe while women are burdened with suspecting a potential rapist or murderer in almost every man we pass.Do I feel the same way about my son or daughter? I appreciate entirely what you're saying, but if you can spare five minutes go and read http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=75 which is relevant to your comment - it's what happens when women do *not* have this attitude taught them from birth. Such teaching isn't universal. Do you think it's reasonable in the context of American life but not reasonable elsewhere, or do you think I'm unreasonably neglectful, or is there an option I've not covered by those two choices?

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:40 pm

My husband and I are thinking about getting a gun for the house. Any suggestions? I havent used a gun before.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:42 pm

DesignerGal;463265 wrote: My husband and I are thinking about getting a gun for the house. Any suggestions? I havent used a gun before.has he used one? i would urge you to go to an indoor range and get some training, then decide.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:16 pm

spot;463256 wrote: Do I feel the same way about my son or daughter? I appreciate entirely what you're saying, but if you can spare five minutes go and read http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=75 which is entirely relevant to your comment - it's what happens when women do *not* have this attitude taught them from birth. Such teaching isn't universal. Do you think it's reasonable in the context of American life but not reasonable elsewhere, or do you think I'm unreasonably neglectful, or is there an option I've not covered by those two choices?

I thoroughly enjoyed your story, Spot. Very much so.

Thank you for pointing me to it. No, I don't think you're neglectful at all. I hope my questions didn't come across that way. My reason for asking is only because I was surprised when you condoned hitching rides in this day, with the risks involved. I wondered if you had a different opinion when your children were involved and if not, what your reasons were. I know a couple decades ago it was common to do and seemingly, people were friendlier then and less apt to hurt someone. Then I wondered if fear is a gender thing or a regional issue. I have not traveled to other countries other than Mexico and am not familiar with their societies. American society as I'm sure you have heard, is rather violent. And it's getting worse. Is this peculiar to America? Is it different in England? Don't worry about seeming incoherent- I'm doing a fab job of it myself!

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:39 pm

RedGlitter;463308 wrote: I wondered if you had a different opinion when your children were involved and if not, what your reasons were. I know a couple decades ago it was common to do and seemingly, people were friendlier then and less apt to hurt someone.Well, that was her own account of the journey she made last year, it's not like it was a trippy new-age jaunt from the sixties. Seemingly people are still friendly.

As to why I encouraged her to turn out that way (to whatever extent I had influence), it's a matter of balancing risk and benefit. I've a pretty good idea of the risks involved in gap year travel, I assume I've a fair grasp of the risks of hitching too. I'd rather she took what risks really exist and justifiably developed her self-confidence than that she stayed home and merely put on an unjustified in-your-face front to impress her friends. As to the risk itself, I quantified it earlier in the "don't let your child leave the country for grad trip" thread to little effect. It's so low as to be as safe as staying home and facing the traffic for the same number of months on the UK roads. You'd be amazed, for all that, at the hostility I faced there while trying to discuss these facts, and I interpret this thread as a scare-mongering extension of the earlier one.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:47 pm

[quote=spot;463326]Well, that was her own account of the journey she made she made last year, it's not like it was a trippy new-age jaunt from the sixties. Seemingly people are still friendly.

As to why I encouraged her to turn out that way (to whatever extent I had influence), it's a matter of balancing risk and benefit. I've a pretty good idea of the risks involved in gap year travel, I assume I've a fair grasp of the risks of hitching too. I'd rather she took what risks really exist and justifiably developed her self-confidence than that she stayed home and merely put on an unjustified in-your-face front to impress her friends. As to the risk itself, I quantified it earlier in the "don't let your child leave the country for grad trip" thread to little effect. It's so low as to be as safe as staying home and facing the traffic for the same number of months on the UK roads. You'd be amazed, for all that, at the hostility I faced there while trying to discuss these facts.[/quote]

Why were people hostile over that?

I can see where you're coming from on this; it makes sense to me. Thanks for being so tolerant of my questions. I know when it comes to outside of America it seems sometimes as if I haven't been out of the cabbage patch.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:54 pm

RedGlitter;463336 wrote: Why were people hostile over that?

I think you'd need to ask the participants concerned if you're looking for motive. I'm sure there are sections of American society for whom a general fear among the population at large is a source of both profit and satisfaction. If you want to change it then change it, nobody outside of your society can do it for you. The price you collectively pay for it is distressing large portions of the globe.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:06 pm

Good LC..gthanks.

My hubby could not figure out once when I got upset when he picked up a guy who asked for a ride. We were at a gas station in a not too great part of town (near Rick's work). While Rick was pumping gas, a man approached him and asked for a ride to a drug store a few bloks away. It was raining hard out.

Rick gave him a ride. I told Rick that it just made me kind of nervous, as we did not even know the guy. I mean, he turned out to be plesant enough, and wanted to give Rick money...which Rick said no to...but you cannot be too careful.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:34 pm

I agree LC good advice. It has been my observation lately that there just aren't many Hitchikers on the road anymore??? Where can you hitchike on a freeway everyone is going 80 plus miles and hour.

If I see someone who looks in trouble (broken down car, flat tire) I call 911 and report it. I travel alone most of the time and wouldn't think of stopping on the road to help someone just not smart, and asking for trouble. 911 and send help to them.

[QUOTE]Spot, in your example you were not hitch-hiking. and you knew you were not a dangerous person. the lady took a chance. my advice here is to women traveling alone, i'm afraid it is a jungle over here in many ways. as for neighbors...i love to see friendly neighborhoods, i lived in a lovely one in Mass. currently my neighbors are people i have had to arrest, they don't like me much. oh well. in any case i'll stay with my advice for women not to pick up strangers on the road. [/QUOTE]

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:51 pm

SnoozeControl;463357 wrote: Fearmongering again, Spot?:rolleyes:Fearmongering does keep rearing its ugly head, doesn't it. I'd be delighted if someone did something productive about it on your side of the pond though I have very little confidence that you'll recover your collective nerve.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:09 pm

'scare-mongering' was not the intent of this thread. i am asked often about safety for women. many police depts. run self-defense classes for women. there must be a need.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:16 pm

lady cop;463410 wrote: 'scare-mongering' was not the intent of this thread. i am asked often about safety for women. many police depts. run self-defense classes for women. there must be a need.Only in America...

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:46 pm

I would have to agree with that Spot maybe it is because there are probably more women drivers in America than any other country in the World. Not sure of the numbers but it has to be up there.

[QUOTE]Only in America...[/QUOTE]

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:49 pm

lady cop;463410 wrote: 'scare-mongering' was not the intent of this thread. i am asked often about safety for women. many police depts. run self-defense classes for women. there must be a need.

I apologize if I ran the thread off its track. Maybe we could continue the other part of the discussion in a new thread? Reading the latest comments, I have yet more questions but I won't ask them here in an effort not to sidetrack the thread further. Sorry LC, your advice is necessary and appreciated and I didn't intend to ruin what you were trying to do. I'm off to start a new thread now...

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:50 pm

i don't feel anyone ran the thread off track. it's just a conversation.

Post by **spot** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:22 pm

CARLA;463552 wrote: I would have to agree with that Spot maybe it is because there are probably more women drivers in America than any other country in the World. Not sure of the numbers but it has to be up there.Not by a factor of five, though the exact equivalence of my figure to your statement is debatable. The World Health Organization total for mortality caused by road traffic injury shows 74,293 women dying in China, a rate of 11.9 per 100,000 population (2002 figures), compared to those in the USA of 13,963, a rate of 9.4 (1999 figures). The figures for men are China: 175,714 (26.2) and the USA: 42,230 (15.0). By contrast, the UK totals are men: 2,505 (5.6) and women: 974 (2.8) (1999 figures).

http://www.who.int/world-health-day/200 ... report/en/

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:36 pm

lady cop;463555 wrote: i don't feel anyone ran the thread off track. it's just a conversation.

:) Maybe I was a little too hasty then as I made a new thread for it.

Please see: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=21590

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:55 pm

RedGlitter;463572 wrote:

Maybe I was a little too hasty then as I made a new thread for it.

Please see: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=21590 not at all...there's always room for more topics!

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:09 pm

One common sense thing i do know. if i am on the road somewhere and my car breaks down. i lock it up and step away from it. walk up into the woods and call someone to come get me. sitting in the car is like being a sitting duck to me. there are too many roads in this area were you might be easily taken and no one be the wiser.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:18 pm

Well were the women in China actually driving the car..:wah: There is just to many people in China to even attempt driving..:driving:

Were not talking about driving fatalities. We are talking about being safe in the event something happen to you on the road and what to do. Like Guppy just posted get the hell out of the car and go where you can't be seen and call 911 and AAA that is what I would do as well.

You don't sit in your car waiting for some one to pull up and help you. That will in most cases get your car stolen, and you possibly killed that is the facts here in the US not pretty but that is how it is. :driving:

[QUOTE]Not by a factor of five, though the exact equivalence of my figure to your statement is debatable. The World Health Organization total for mortality caused by road traffic injury shows 74,293 women dying in China, a rate of 11.9 per 100,000 population (2002 figures), compared to those in the USA of 13,963, a rate of 9.4 (1999 figures). The figures for men are China: 175,714 (26.2) and the USA: 42,230 (15.0). By contrast, the UK totals are men: 2,505 (5.6) and women: 974 (2.8) (1999 figures).[/QUOTE]

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:16 am

CARLA;463595 wrote: Well were the women in China actually driving the car..I did say "the exact equivalence of my figure to your statement is debatable" and the question of who was driving, and what portion of the women were pedestrians, did cross my mind. My point though was one of proportion. The number being assaulted by strangers is utterly swamped by the numbers dying in traffic accidents, and yet all the concern here is focused on the minor risks and not on the major killers.

Motor vehicle trauma is the leading cause of death of Canadians between the ages of 1 and 41, for example (Canadian Medical Association Journal, CMAJ June 8, 2004; 170) - and that's not just even of women, note, that's all Canadians. There seems to be a fatalism as far as this massive and quantifiable risk is concerned, while the boogeyman risk is all that preoccupies the mind of so many posters.

Why should entire generations of women adopt this mindset of avoidance and disengagement toward the least potential of the dangers which surround them? Look at koan's figures, for example. To tighten safety in this minor area of risk, the rational reduction is to avoid being vulnerably located with relatives, friends and acquaintances rather than with strangers. To actually go out and engage more safely with the world, travel by public transport. There may be a lot more strangers about but you'll reduce your risk of dying violently while travelling by a factor of between ten and a hundred.

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:28 am

CARLA;463595 wrote: You don't sit in your car waiting for some one to pull up and help you. That will in most cases get your car stolen, and you possibly killed that is the facts here in the US not pretty but that is how it is.On the contrary, that's just how it isn't, even ignoring the hyperbole of "most cases".

The rate of forcible rapes in the USA in 2005 was estimated at 62.5 offenses per 100,000 female inhabitants (see http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/ ... _rape.html ) which is one woman in 1600 of the female population of the USA forcibly raped each year. Taking koan's figure from http://www.ncweb.com/org/rapecrisis/myth.html that 78% of women know their attacker, that leaves the chance for each woman in the USA each year of being forcibly raped by a stranger as about 1 in 7000.

Shall we deal with murders next?

There were 800 women murdered by strangers in the USA in 2005 ( collating http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/ ... le_01.html and http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/ ... icide.html )

All of this deliberate thread panic comes into context just with those two figures, in my opinion. Out of a hundred and fifty million women, eight hundred are killed and everyone has to regulate and restrict their entire way of life to try to avoid the same fate? Or one chance in seven thousand of forcible rape by a stranger? Does nobody think that perhaps avoiding being one of the fourteen thousand women dying on US roads each year is a slightly more significant and practical approach to increased life expectancy? I only draw traffic mortality into this because the figures are in front of me. Choose other avoidable modes of death and disaster if you'd rather, my point remains the same.

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:38 am

Statistics & Reports, are just that, the mechanicl input of data! :wah:

It's somewhat interesting to see how the other side of the pond equates that data into what they perceive as how it should affect our mental social attitude (didn't know how to spell Sikie?) towards danger here in the USA. Actually, unless you live here in this country, you really can not comprehend the "safety precautions" that needs to (no, make that must) be followed (actually not only by women, but men also) for self preservation! It's sad but true, however, also at the same time, necessary! That's just the "way of the world" here! In reality, most People here don't live their lives here in terror, but as the wise initial intent of this post stated, "Precautions" must be taken to ensure our safety!

(If you're not looking for trouble, it "will" find you!:-2)

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:04 am

cars;463810 wrote: Statistics & Reports, are just that, the mechanicl input of data!On the contrary, cars, the statistics provide a demonstrable basis for my position while all I hear in return is unsupported opinion. The statistics are the boiled down consequence of a far greater mechanical input of data (unless you're suggesting that I'm mechanically dredging up irrelevant details, as opposed to my finding out what the reality behind the fear-mongering is). If only someone would come up with alternative interpretations of hard facts then I'd be delighted to accept what's being said. Why is nobody else producing any numbers? Because the numbers support my contentions?

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:24 am

spot;463839 wrote: On the contrary, cars, the statistics provide a demonstrable basis for my position while all I hear in return is unsupported opinion. The statistics are the boiled down consequence of a far greater mechanical input of data (unless you're suggesting that I'm mechanically dredging up irrelevant details instead of finding out what the reality behind the fear-mongering is). If only someone would come up with alternative interpretations of hard facts then I'd be delighted to accept what's being said. Why is nobody else producing any numbers? Because the numbers support my contentions?

Seems like your'e trying to mix apples & oranges Spot! Can you put a number on taking self preservation "precautions"? I think not. You mention all you hear is unsupported opinion, well your own statistics that you tout, supports "our" reason for wanting to take necssary precautions. Why should we become a statistic, if by only taking a few precautions, we can alleviate becoming one ourselves?

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:34 am

cars;463855 wrote: Why should we become a statistic, if by only taking a few precautions, we can alleviate becoming one ourselves?If it were a question of that then it would be entirely rational. I do it myself. I'm talking about a lifetime of suspecting strangers by default rather than accepting them, the lost opportunities for social engagement, the colossal profits being gleaned by the corporations pushing the "be cautious, be vigilant, behave" message. Risk management depends on an ability to compare risks. You collectively watch each other with mindless suspicion while blithely ignoring the carnage on your turnpikes.