UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

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Post by RedGlitter »

AussiePam;904071 wrote: Are sociopaths born or do they become that way? Nature or nurture?


I believe they are born with a hairtrigger and nurture can set it off at anytime.
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Post by AussiePam »

All I can say, Red, is that in this instance I would never ever trust these sadistic murderers, whether they've "paid their debt to society", been "rehabilitated" or not. Their "debt to society" is not their "debt" to the bereaved mother.

And if anyone ever deliberately harmed any of my children, I would pursue them to the end of the earth. At very least, I could not walk upon the same earth they were sunning themselves on, while my child - due to their deliberate act - was not.
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Post by RedGlitter »

I offer no argument, Pam. I agree completely.
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Good posts Red and Pam:-6
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;903705 wrote: The others are revolutionists.


Nothing wrong with revolutionists...Especially when their governments ideals are questioned...
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Post by RedGlitter »

K.Snyder;904089 wrote: Nothing wrong with revolutionists...Especially when their governments ideals are questioned...


Here here!

(Or is that hear hear?)

:)
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Post by K.Snyder »

RedGlitter;904092 wrote: Here here!

(Or is that hear hear?)

:)


I believe it would be "hear hear"...Unless of course you're strenuously trying to give me something...:wah:
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Post by RedGlitter »

K.Snyder;904115 wrote: I believe it would be "hear hear"...Unless of course you're strenuously trying to give me something...:wah:


Smartbutt. :wah:
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Post by koan »

spot;903543 wrote: You're entirely mistaken as to my motive. My motive is to discuss the topic of the thread knowing that for every participant here there's another hundred people who will read it and draw their own conclusions, partly on the basis of what's said here. It's them I'm writing to, not you.


I think this is an important point to stress in emotionally charged threads such as this. It is very rare to change the mind of an opponent in a debate but the arguments are rather more effectively judged by the multitude of non members who read FG.

FG is a great place to spend time debating because it has such high google ranking and many people will click on links to this thread, or others, if they are looking for opinions on a topic that gets keyword hits. I don't have a lot of spare time anymore so, when I do have time to engage in debate, I choose to write here as I know the time is well spent. People will read it.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;902022 wrote: Go and read Lord Woolfe, he explains it quite well. The entire rehabilitation system of the country threw itself into getting the two of them right - and Mary Bell before them. They're showcase models of rehabilitation. They're the best we can do. What's more, there's no other killers in England I'd have chosen ahead of them for the prospect of being mended even on the grounds of blame and responsibility. These two are the least responsible killers I've ever heard of in my life, nobody else is more deserving of the effort to undo the damage they'd undergone at the hands of their families.


I haven't gotten to Lord Woolfe yet but have to ask based on your obvious agreement on the fact that these two killers are rehabilitated...

Would it not be appropriate to assume that these two murderers have been the focal point of a legislatures desire to romanticize their concepts in extended rehabilitation programs at the same time wouldn't you feel this would create a biased perspective leading up to these two "peoples" judgment as to their morality?...

Seems to me this particular ruling body is a bit too overzealous on getting the public to believe people capable of murder let alone complete and utter torture and mutilation fits that of..."people like the children this thread's discussed, who are so blatantly victims of their environments and so evidently successfully rehabilitated" are more or equally civilized with that of the rest...

My question is why do you feel the "Minority" in this case feels it's to their best interest to go against that of the majorities lack of willingness to release these to known murderers?...
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;903540 wrote:

Select Committee on Home Affairs Fifth Report: The application of the draft guideline to murder

Release must be directed by the Parole Board, and cannot occur unless the prisoner is regarded as not dangerous. The Parole Board may only review cases once the tariff has been served, and the majority of mandatory lifers are not released after the first review. Recidivism rates are extremely low (around 3%).

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/c ... irst_match

That's the proportion of murderers in England released on licence who subsequently re-offend and come before a court on another charge. Not necessarily of murder - any charge at all. One in thirty. Not, as you suggest, the possibility that a majority of released killers kill again - one in thirty have further trouble of any sort with the law, the remaining twenty nine don't. That's definitely lower than the offending rate of the whole population.

If I see a figure for the number of murderers released on parole in England who then murder again I'll produce it. I'm sure it exists. I'm sure it's very low indeed. I'd hope it was also lower than the background murder rate among the whole population or the parole board's not doing its job right, the way I defined my ideal of their responsibility earlier.


That's very well but I personally would not take a chance on releasing any murderers based on the simple fact that 3% have committed other crimes...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Oh and for the record I am willing to turn my back on these two "people"...

Regardless as to what I find after reading Lord Woolfe...
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;904163 wrote: That's very well but I personally would not take a chance on releasing any murderers based on the simple fact that 3% have committed other crimes...


Even though the general average population has a background criminality rate exceeding 3% and these people are more law-abiding than the average? I'd go further, they're less likely to commit a crime after their release than the average person in society who's never been in trouble with the law at all.

K.Snyder wrote: Seems to me this particular ruling body is a bit too overzealous on getting the public to believe people capable of murder let alone complete and utter torture and mutilation fits that of..."people like the children this thread's discussed, who are so blatantly victims of their environments and so evidently successfully rehabilitated" are more or equally civilized with that of the rest...I guarantee that they'd not make that effort for an adult killer. They went to these lengths because the two were ten years old and obviously victims of their environments. The psychiatric advice was that they weren't mentally deranged, the court chose to deal with them despite their age. I don't think it was the right place for them but the outcome, as far as their modified upbringing is concerned, was the same as if they'd not been tried. They were taken away from their previous environment and straightened out.

Chezzie, I've said repeated ly that in my opinion successful rehabilitation is bringing the measured offending rate of people released on parole below that of the population at large. You can't possibly have missed it, I've said it often enough. It's measurable, it's a reasonable objective, it seems ethically sound to my eyes unlike a position where one re-offender prevents any parole ever which is Snyder's case.
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Post by spot »

mrsK;903728 wrote: The parents are responsible for the way they bring up their children.

Once these children get to a certain age here they can basically do what they want.And if that happens at the age of ten then it's the parent that has failed the child, not the child that has failed the parent.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;904182 wrote: Even though the general average population has a background criminality rate exceeding 3% and these people are more law-abiding than the average? I'd go further, they're less likely to commit a crime after their release than the average person in society who's never been in trouble with the law at all.


Evidentally all but 3%...I'm just not willing to weigh the risks...And my motive for this is the blatant fact that they've already committed the vile act in which they're in question for...

spot;904182 wrote:

I guarantee that they'd not make that effort for an adult killer. They went to these lengths because the two were ten years old and obviously victims of their environments. The psychiatric advice was that they weren't mentally deranged, the court chose to deal with them despite their age. I don't think it was the right place for them but the outcome, as far as their modified upbringing is concerned, was the same as if they'd not been tried. They were taken away from their previous environment and straightened out.




I can understand the logic...But as far as my position is concerned rehabilitation is irrelevant and basing their potential on the likelihood of others in the society of committing the same acts is irrelevant...It's not about crime by association...It's crime altogether...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Irrelevant because basing ones motives off of the public is no different than agreeing with the majority...Same virtue...
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;904183 wrote: And if that happens at the age of ten then it's the parent that has failed the child, not the child that has failed the parent.


I don't see how it couldn't be both considering there is more than one virtue...
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Post by RedGlitter »

spot;904183 wrote: And if that happens at the age of ten then it's the parent that has failed the child, not the child that has failed the parent.


At what age then would you consider it appropriate that a child be responsible for their actions?
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Post by K.Snyder »

Ones moral integrity cannot be changed...Only influenced...And these two "people" knew what they were doing was wrong but they did it anyway and the price to pay was the life of a child whos smile cannot be denied...

Yes the parents failed them but to me that has nothing to do with their rights as "people" because the day they murdered that child is the day their rights hit the door Jack...

No one has the right to be put into the same vicinity as those two monsters...Bad upbringing or no bad upbringing it does not change the fact that these two "people" are capable of murder...And proving their "rehabilitation" is impossible altogether...
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;904182 wrote: The psychiatric advice was that they weren't mentally deranged, the court chose to deal with them despite their age.




Why do you feel the "Minority" in this case feels it's to their best interest to go against that of the majorities lack of willingness to release these two known murderers?...
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;904196 wrote: At what age then would you consider it appropriate that a child be responsible for their actions?
The Romans had a ceremony at which the father relinquished control of and responsibility for his son around the age of 16. He had a formal choice, to have the son killed as unworthy of the society he was about to enter or to declare him responsible for his own acts. There's civilization for you. It is, shall we say, paternalistic, but it's an indication of how they saw the problem.
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;904200 wrote: Why do you feel the "Minority" in this case feels it's to their best interest to go against that of the majorities lack of willingness to release these two known murderers?...


A greater awareness of the need for ethical standards.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;904229 wrote: A greater awareness of the need for ethical standards.


I'm not willing to be as trustworthy on the two "peoples" in question without personal observation to the likes of their own morale virtue from which, and hypothetically speaking, I would only deem the likes of themselves satisfactory only after they've lived the rest of their lives...
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Post by K.Snyder »

All I have to ask now is who's at greater risk from the ruling in this case?...
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;904229 wrote: A greater awareness of the need for ethical standards.


This quite blatantly implies that you feel the majority of the world is unethical...Or is it that you feel the majority of England is unethical?...
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

I'm with you.

I can't see how society can ever trust a murderer, no matter what program or rehabiliation course they are forced to go on.

A question to bare in mind: If a killer was never caught, would they themselves sign up for such rehab treatment or would they continue to kill?
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Post by spot »

I will say it one final time in this thread, not one of you seems competent to discuss or assess risk.
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Post by Tigerlily »

And you are?

I hope you have someone in your life who loves you enough to go to extremes for you.
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Post by spot »

Tigerlily;905570 wrote: And you are? Someone competent to discuss and assess risk, at least. I can handle the equations. It gives a different and more meaningful perspective on life's problems, honestly. Even knowing the subject exists helps. Hands up anyone else in the thread who knows risk assessment exists as a valid subject?

Tigerlily wrote: I hope you have someone in your life who loves you enough to go to extremes for you.How sweet. I'll be pretty livid if it turns out there is. Extremes are inherently bad form.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by AussiePam »

spot;905588 wrote: Someone competent to discuss and assess risk, at least. I can handle the equations. It gives a different and more meaningful perspective on life's problems, honestly. Even knowing the subject exists helps. Hands up anyone else in the thread who knows risk assessment exists as a valid subject?




At first I do admit to having had an emotional reaction to this neat but predictable put down, but then I gave it some thought and decided a detached, cool assessment of the content gave a much more meaningful perspective - and went in search of my morning coffee, smiling.

:-6
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;905588 wrote: Someone competent to discuss and assess risk, at least. I can handle the equations. It gives a different and more meaningful perspective on life's problems, honestly. Even knowing the subject exists helps. Hands up anyone else in the thread who knows risk assessment exists as a valid subject?




No one knows the risk when "rehabilitation" is defined by "to whom's more likely to commit a heinous crime-- Public vs known criminal" because no one knows what it's like to be another human being...Rehabilitation is 100% knowing that a person is never going to commit a crime again and should be used in that particular manner...No one can predict what other human beings do so it's irrelevant to compare statistics with other released criminals' motives...More tax payers dollars are being wasted at these two murderers expense all because people feel..."These two murderers have the right to be free among others of society because they were 10 years old when they brutally beat and murdered a two year old boy"...

I've read excerpts from Lord Woolfe and have found this particularly unsettling in that the ruling in this case obviously contradicts their belief that these two killers are 100% rehabilitated...

• They are both now 18 years of age. Being 18 they would be due to be transferred to young offenders' institutions. The reports make clear that the transfer would be likely to undo much of the good work to which I have referred. Having been living in an unnaturally protected environment, they are unprepared for the very different circumstances in which they would be detained in a young offenders' institution. They are unlikely to be able to cope, at least at first, with the corrosive atmosphere with which they could be faced if transferred. There is also the danger of their being exposed to drugs.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/oct/27/bulger

What happens when they're exposed to this environment in the real world?...It's allowed for them to murder then because they were exposed to some intimidation, or drugs?...

They are unlikely to be able to cope, at least at first, with the corrosive atmosphere with which they could be faced if transferred.


"Oh let's just set them free then"...Farce...
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Post by spot »

AussiePam;905646 wrote: At first I do admit to having had an emotional reaction to this neat but predictable put down, but then I gave it some thought and decided a detached, cool assessment of the content gave a much more meaningful perspective - and went in search of my morning coffee, smiling.

:-6Hallelujah.

Just out of interest, did the initial "And you are?" qualify as a neat but predictable put down? Am I not allowed to respond informatively?
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;905694 wrote: No one knows the risk when "rehabilitation" is defined by "to whom's more likely to commit a heinous crime-- Public vs known criminal" because no one knows what it's like to be another human being...Rehabilitation is 100% knowing that a person is never going to commit a crime again and should be used in that particular manner...No one can predict what other human beings do so it's irrelevant to compare statistics with other released criminals' motives...More tax payers dollars are being wasted at these two murderers expense all because people feel..."These two murderers have the right to be free among others of society because they were 10 years old when they brutally beat and murdered a two year old boy"...Turn it around then, Snyder. The trial judge, all the Home Secretaries, the appeals judges, the EU court, all agreed that the lads would be released sooner or later. Why were they all wrong and you're right? Why do you think their expertise should be discounted in favour of your theory? You're like Noah before the flood, the world doesn't work the way you seem to want it to. Short of killing everyone with an apocalyptic deluge you're not going to succeed in overthrowing the system.

"Rehabilitation is 100% knowing that a person is never going to commit a crime again and should be used in that particular manner" ? All you need do is find a dictionary agreeing with you and you can use the word that way but right now you're merely attempting to steal it.

Here's one version, from the OED... "The British Council for Rehabilitation was founded in 1944... Rehabilitation was defined as ‘the whole range of services from the time of the onset of the individuals' disability to the point at which he is restored to normal activity or the nearest possible approach to it’."
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;905710 wrote: Turn it around then, Snyder. The trial judge, all the Home Secretaries, the appeals judges, the EU court, all agreed that the lads would be released sooner or later. Why were they all wrong and you're right? Why do you think their expertise should be discounted in favour of your theory? You're like Noah before the flood, the world doesn't work the way you seem to want it to. Short of killing everyone with an apocalyptic deluge you're not going to succeed in overthrowing the system.

"Rehabilitation is 100% knowing that a person is never going to commit a crime again and should be used in that particular manner" ? All you need do is find a dictionary agreeing with you and you can use the word that way but right now you're merely attempting to steal it.

Here's one version, from the OED... "The British Council for Rehabilitation was founded in 1944... Rehabilitation was defined as ‘the whole range of services from the time of the onset of the individuals' disability to the point at which he is restored to normal activity or the nearest possible approach to it’."


( I will accept this as my opinion so as long as it's the opinions of others that there is a such thing as rehabilitation and not mere coincidence as to re offending-- Neither can be proven considering everyone is their own person...)

You can't "rehabilitate" a murderer in the same way you can't "rehabilitate" an alcoholic or crackhead...Just because an alcoholic doesn't ever drink again or a crackhead never gets high again is mere coincidence...Throw them into an alcoholic environment and a slum and see how long it takes before they pick up their unwanted habits...Much in the same way the excerpt I have given illustrates that these two killers are not 100% rehabilitated...

The simple fact that I believe there is no such thing as rehabilitating a murderer, because they've already stepped into the mindset they chose to that proves they are capable of ending another human beings life, implies quite clearly that I believe they should be locked up for the rest of their lives...Because rehabilitation to me is nothing more than weighing the risk being imposed upon the society associated with the crime that has been committed by the risk in question...The risk is greater in favor of reoffending because it's been proven that offense has been taken prior...

The ruling body in this case has released two killers because they believe the risk purely rests on the shoulders of other convictions and to me that's just unacceptable...You don't buy a striker from Ivory Coast to boost your scoring tally simply because Didier Drogba is a scoring machine...It's bad for business and it's bad for society...
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Post by spot »

And what bit of that answered any portion of my question?
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Post by K.Snyder »

The system is wrong...
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Post by K.Snyder »

K.Snyder;905727 wrote: The system is wrong...


In the same way you've already admitted that there are incompetent psychiatrists, psychologists and police officers...
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Post by K.Snyder »

I wouldn't expect anyone who's killed someone in a bar fight after defending themselves to be locked up for the rest of their life...I do however see a problem with seeing two people who's sole purpose was to murder be released...10 years old or not..."Rehabilitated" or not isn't of the question...It's they've done it once they can do it again...They've stepped into a mentality that is unchangeable in my opinion...

And the risk on both sides is -- Taking the chance of another person being murdered, or seeing these two people who's upbringing is irrelevant because it's the publics safety that is of the concern, be locked up in a prison institution, who's vulgarity is extremely limited I might add...Wondering if they get HBO...Pool tables must be nice...I've had one once but it surely was a heap of wood compared to the one's murderers get...
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;905725 wrote: And what bit of that answered any portion of my question?


In the same way what gives the system the right to say they're right and I'm wrong?...
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;905735 wrote: I wouldn't expect anyone who's killed someone in a bar fight after defending themselves to be locked up for the rest of their lifeI'd not expect anyone who's killed someone in a bar fight after defending themselves to be even put on trial, if the death was a consequence of the self-defence and the prosecution service recognised that it was a proportionate response. It's not a crime.
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;905737 wrote: In the same way what gives the system the right to say they're right and I'm wrong?...


The system has evolved for hundreds of years, and it's very big, and influential philosophers have had a major input into its methods, reasons and structure. All of that's more credible than someone who wants to throw it all out and impose a blanket ban. "They've stepped into a mentality that is unchangeable in my opinion" is a perfectly good opinion if you provide evidence to go with it but you never do, you just ignore all the evidence to the contrary and insist on redefining perfectly good English words to disguise your errors. You have an opinion based on your thoughts and feelings which don't reflect reality.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;905740 wrote: The system has evolved for hundreds of years, and it's very big, and influential philosophers have had a major input into its methods, reasons and structure. All of that's more credible than someone who wants to throw it all out and impose a blanket ban.


That's your opinion...
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;905742 wrote: That's your opinion...


Jesus, I wish you'd get your terminology straight. It's not an opinion, it's a series of facts. They're all verifiable. They're external to me, they exist as facts in the real world.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;905743 wrote: Jesus, I wish you'd get your terminology straight. It's not an opinion, it's a series of facts. They're all verifiable. They're external to me, they exist as facts in the real world.


The competence of psychiatry, psychology and policing is an opinion...Unless of course you have a written testament explaining that these psychiatrists, psychologists and police officers are correct by "God"...

They're external to you by other opinions...

And I do wish to put a "blanket ban" on people who torture, beat, lay people over rail road tracks eventually leading to the victims murder and mutilate dead corpses...
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Post by spot »

Do you mind if I explore your opinions a bit? So I can get a better idea of why you think what you think?

Blind people, for example, never commit violent crime. It's a simple matter these days to disable a person's sight without permanently damaging their ability to see once you reverse the process. You could sentence a killer to blindness instead of jail, for life if you want to. To make them remain productive in society you can even turn the blindness off just at their place of work. It ought to guarantee their inability to ever kill again. Let's assume for a moment that it does.

Would that be a suitable sentence for a killer?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;905763 wrote: Do you mind if I explore your opinions a bit? So I can get a better idea of why you think what you think?

Blind people, for example, never commit violent crime. It's a simple matter these days to disable a person's sight without permanently damaging their ability to see once you reverse the process. You could sentence a killer to blindness instead of jail, for life if you want to. To make them remain productive in society you can even turn the blindness off just at their place of work. It ought to guarantee their inability to ever kill again. Let's assume for a moment that it does.

Would that be a suitable sentence for a killer?


Are you suggesting that a blind person is incapable of murdering?...

No because the murderer in question would have had to be blind before this would remain relevant...And to suggest the two murderers in this case were blind as a result of their childhood is argumentative in that physical blindness cannot be compared with ignorance because the motives leading up to the horrid murder in question was simple spitefulness to the point of no motive at all...Which is the worst motive of any ignorance, and ignorance is the worst attribute man kind has ever been faced with...The same ignorance that is detrimental to society and the same ignorance I feel needs to be caged...
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;905772 wrote: Are you suggesting that a blind person is incapable of murdering?...

No because the murderer in question would have had to be blind before this would remain relevant...And to suggest the two murderers in this case were blind as a result of their childhood is argumentative in that physical blindness cannot be compared with ignorance because the motives leading up to the horrid murder in question was simple spitefulness to the point of no motive at all...Which is the worst motive of any ignorance, and ignorance is the worst attribute man kind has ever been faced with...The same ignorance that is detrimental to society and the same ignorance I feel needs to be caged...


We're reaching the point where I don't understand what you're writing any longer.

Of course blind people don't kill. If you blind someone they'll not be able to kill any longer. Go and look for examples if you don't believe me.

I'm offering a practical one-stop instant prevention from killing again without using a prison - blinding the killer. I was hoping you might say why you find it acceptable or otherwise.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;905779 wrote: We're reaching the point where I don't understand what you're writing any longer.

Of course blind people don't kill. If you blind someone they'll not be able to kill any longer. Go and look for examples if you don't believe me.

I'm offering a practical one-stop instant prevention from killing again without using a prison - blinding the killer. I was hoping you might say why you find it acceptable or otherwise.


I said no...I don't find blinding a killer an ulterior solution in the prevention of others being murdered...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Blind people are more than capable of murdering...
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Post by spot »

K.Snyder;905783 wrote: Blind people are more than capable of murdering...


You're being perverse now. Go and find examples. It's actually irrelevant to my question, you're merely avoiding answering it. ASSUME that blind people DON'T kill and decide whether - in that specific circumstance - it would allow killers to be left in society instead of in jail. I'm sure you think it wouldn't, I just want you to explain why.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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