UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

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G#Gill
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by G#Gill »

spot;902642 wrote: Because they were all victims in their own right.


I AM SORRY TO BE THE ONE TO SAY THIS, BUT IN MY OPINION, WITH REGARD TO SPOT'S STATEMENT AS QUOTED ABOVE, I BELIEVE THIS PERSON HAS FINALLY SHOT HIMSELF IN BOTH FEET. AND SHOWN EVERYBODY HIS TRUE COLOURS.

Spot you seem to have a sadistic enjoyment in getting so many people riled up. This latest diatribe of yours must surely be your crowning glory. I do hope you can sleep well :rolleyes:
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

Here here!
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Post by Carolly »

spot;902649 wrote: That's very general Carolly, it would help if you select something I wrote if you want me to explain it in better detail. If I remember, you'd love to meet me one day and you'll not be the one on the receiving end when it happens that's for sure? The difficulty in discussing things reasonably is that one never quite knows how far posters are prepared to go once they start making threats like that. lol so your worried about a woman meeting you oh fgs....I meant a face to face debate Spot and not hiding behind a screen and if that bothers you I do apologise.
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

Spot's beginning to grow on me. He's like that one friend everybody has who's always wrong but who tries to hammer his point home until he's blue in the face.
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;902652 wrote: And where is the reason in this thread? Once again it's a soundstage setup for you, Spot to vent your irritance about child soldiers and America at war. It's ridiculous. If you want to be a bleeding heart for baby murderers that is your right but you should not expect to convince most normal people of such hogwash.


I repeat, everything I've posted in this thread has been the middle-of-the-road exact position of Her Majesty's Government. I'm expressing the normal position, the extremists are the rest of you. Neither did I start the thread, I came into it a long time afterwards. If you want the reason for the thread you'd have to ask the OP, not me.
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Post by RedGlitter »

I'm expressing the normal position, the extremists are the rest of you.


Of course.:thinking:
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

Rather an extremist opposed to stupid laws than a blind fool who upholds everything his government feeds him.

If everything you've said is middle of the road and from the stance of the queen's law, what are your own opinions? Why come on here to fight somebody else's opinions???
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Post by spot »

Carolly;902655 wrote: lol so your worried about a woman meeting you oh fgs....I meant a face to face debate Spot and not hiding behind a screen and if that bothers you I do apologise.Surely not - the idea that your discourse face to face might be so much more persuasive than your style online isn't one which had even crossed my mind.

TheBlackWhisper;902665 wrote: If everything you've said is middle of the road and from the stance of the queen's law, what are your own opinions? Why come on here to fight somebody else's opinions???My opinions are as you see them laid out here, nothing disguised, nothing hidden. Pointing out that they're at the same time centrist opinions lacking any extreme does seem relevant though. People have made out in this thread that I'm out of touch and it's clearly not the case.
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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;902663 wrote: [quote=spot]I'm expressing the normal position, the extremists are the rest of you. Of course.:thinking:


All you need do is ask what happens in real life. In real life the two lads - and Mary Bell, who I insist is relevant to the thread - were paroled on licence back into the community. That's the centrist position together with all it implies about rehabilitation.
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Post by K.Snyder »

spot;902139 wrote: So, what of Mary Bell then, Gill? How does she differ from these two lads? How much is she in the same boat as far as an inbuilt incapacity to rehabilitate's concerned? She's over fifty now.


I think if you were to bring comparisons into the equation, such as the Mary Bell case, then it would be equally relevant to bring in comparisons that represent the majority of end results associated with murderers being released from prison...Otherwise the Mary Bell comparison becomes simply irrelevant to the point of pure coincidence...

I'm not willing to bet the majority of murderers whom are released never commit another act of murder let alone another crime detrimental to society...

Considering that the possibility in which these two boys will never murder again is pure speculation on the grounds in which no one is psychic, I think it's safe to say that comparing anyones motives to that of another are completely irrelevant...
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

So are we getting what you think here or what's happening in the world? Because I know how the world works and what's happening. If you're just reiterating the laws of the land there's no need. This is a debate on whether Bulger's killers should be allowed back into society. I'm against that. Where do you stand?
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Post by Carolly »

spot;902694 wrote: Surely not - the idea that your discourse face to face might be so much more persuasive than your style online isn't one which had even crossed my mind.

My opinions are as you see them laid out here, nothing disguised, nothing hidden. Pointing out that they're at the same time centrist opinions lacking any extreme does seem relevant though. People have made out in this thread that I'm out of touch and it's clearly not the case.Ditto .....boy your a great Mod turning this into something personal
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Post by kayleneaussie »

I am a mother and I know if what happened had happened to my own child and the two culprits were released I would take matters into my own hands. Also if I was the mother of these two boys I would want them locked up never to be released ever again. Now that is my opinion as a mother.
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Post by qsducks »

kayleneaussie;902724 wrote: I am a mother and I know if what happened had happened to my own child and the two culprits were released I would take matters into my own hands. Also if I was the mother of these two boys I would want them locked up never to be released ever again. Now that is my opinion as a mother.


Here, here! As a mom myself if those two dispicible so called humans ever did what happened to that defenseless baby to my children, they would never see the light of day again.
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Post by K.Snyder »

This is getting ridiculous people...

What has happened happened...There's no changing it...Because of this it's blatantly evident that there will be opinions that coincide with that of those to whom released these two killers(And yes they are still killers -- I think the families of the victims are at least deserving in the recognition of this vile lack of compassion)...
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

I just think there's a certain member on here who's getting people's backs up because he's supporting a side of society that should be flushed down the toilet...
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Post by Tigerlily »

People kill because they like to. Children torture animals because they like to. Legal systems seem to ignore the rights of normal people to go about their business with their children and themselves unmolested, as do apologists for murderers.

As a mother I would have done exactly what she did, and more, but I wouldn't have been daft enough to tell anyone. Revenge served best cold. And logic says I would have got off.
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Post by K.Snyder »

TheBlackWhisper;902754 wrote: I just think there's a certain member on here who's getting people's backs up because he's supporting a side of society that should be flushed down the toilet...


I'm sure others would agree with you but it's still an opinion...

Others as in the society being flushed down the toilet -- I tend to not let opinions get personal...
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Post by G#Gill »

spot;902640 wrote: Has it not occurred to you even once that from start to finish in this thread I've been giving the middle-of-the-road exact position of Her Majesty's Government? And, if it come to that, her Loyal Opposition's too?


Spot, I really don't think anybody is interested in this useless government's stance on anything. Why on earth should you feel obliged to take what you think may be their stance on this particular subject ? Have you no capability of passing your own personal opinion? Do you have to use a third party and make out that the opinion or stance is theirs? I think the time for 'devil's advocate' is passed. Now is the time to come clean and give us YOUR opinion, not what you think may be somebody else's. Or am I asking too much of you ? Perhaps you are unable to do this.........
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Post by K.Snyder »

I think it helps to challenge opinions even if it does appear to be far from the overall accepted majority...

Without challenge you have grounds for incompetence...
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Post by G#Gill »

K.Snyder;902767 wrote: I think it helps to challenge opinions even if it does appear to be far from the overall accepted majority...

Without challenge you have grounds for incompetence...


K. listen, all I ask is that Spot gives us the benefit of HIS personal opinion. I really am tired of reading Spot's 'devil's advocate' pieces of literary gobbledegook. I just wondered if he was capable of 'being himself' for once.
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Post by K.Snyder »

G#Gill;902770 wrote: K. listen, all I ask is that Spot gives us the benefit of HIS personal opinion. I really am tired of reading Spot's 'devil's advocate' pieces of literary gobbledegook. I just wondered if he was capable of 'being himself' for once.


Very well...

I was just making a statement really...
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;902770 wrote: K. listen, all I ask is that Spot gives us the benefit of HIS personal opinion. I really am tired of reading Spot's 'devil's advocate' pieces of literary gobbledegook. I just wondered if he was capable of 'being himself' for once.


My opinions are as you see them laid out here, nothing disguised, nothing hidden. Pointing out that they're at the same time centrist opinions lacking any extreme does seem relevant though. People have made out in this thread that I'm out of touch and it's clearly not the case.

You seem to think that I've toed a party line of some kind and that's not so. I've been critical of English practice in several ways. I've pointed out that the jails, most particularly the privatized profit-making ones, make a profit or pass inspection solely on the basis of holding prisoners, the more and the longer the better as far as they're concerned. I've argued that the country has no business to be running the jails because state-run prisons have no incentive to improve, all English jails should be privatised. I've suggested that a change to payment by results, measured in terms of declared rehabilitated prisoners released back into the community, with heavy financial penalties for any jail which releases a prisoner who then commits another crime, would stimulate detailed research into rehabilitation and recidivism which no other process would stimulate. None of that's Government policy, all of it's on FG and at least implied or referred to in this thread.

You may call it devil's advocacy, I call it deeply held honest rational opinion which holds water. I'd be absolutely delighted if people would actually discuss the content of my posts and not harangue me from the sidelines like a bunch of fishwives.

I note the phrase "tribal unempathic emo sensationalists who haven't a clue of how to assess risk" a few posts after the one I just linked to - that's exactly the stumbling block any attempt at discussion in this thread's come up against. I might put it into my sig.
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;902766 wrote: Spot, I really don't think anybody is interested in this useless government's stance on anything. Why on earth should you feel obliged to take what you think may be their stance on this particular subject ?I note in passing that the eight year punitive minimum sentence imposed on the two lads this thread's about, which is exactly what they served, was passed under a Conservative administration fourteen years into its term. The modern English use of jails dates back to Victorian times and has always balanced punishment, rehabilitation and isolating dangerous people from the community, those are the three planks. They're not a party political issue, they're the core values of all three main parties here. No party advocates one or two of those intentions, all support all three. If you can detect any clear blue water between the current stance of Labour, Liberal or Conservative in 2008 on imprisonment then you're doing better than I can manage.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Post by Hope6 »

I can't believe you guys are still debating this thing!

this is a highly emotional subject to a lot of us and Spot you should understand that this is in particular hard for mothers to read, the first thought you have is about that poor baby and what he went through, and his mother and what she will have to live with for the rest of her life. It can't be helped, it's just how we are, we imagine the horror of what if it was my baby? and that takes away all our desire to discuss anything about the laws or anything about the case.

at least that's the way i feel anyway, i just feel so bad for everybody involved, yes the parents of those two boys too, they must be going through hell too, having to live with the fact that there sons are murders. but my thoughts will always be for that little darlin that died so horrbly and i'm afraid this thread is gonna haunt me for a long time.
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Post by spot »

To be perfectly frank, if I see even one more "speaking as a mother" I'll post a youtube link to Bill Bailey's minor eruption on the subject. This is a highly emotive subject to a lot of us, mothers or otherwise. Stop claiming a uniquely valid perspective.

"The parents [or, to be more precise, the immediate families] of those two boys too" hold the prime responsibility for what happened, it's a pity no court was invited to express its opinion on their behaviour - and the same goes for Mary Bell's.
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Post by Hope6 »

spot;903291 wrote: To be perfectly frank, if I see even one more "speaking as a mother" I'll post a youtube link to Bill Bailey's minor eruption on the subject. This is a highly emotive subject to a lot of us, mothers or otherwise. Stop claiming a unique perspective.

"The parents of those two boys too" hold the prime responsibility for what happened, it's a pity no court was invited to express its opinion on their behaviour.




i'm not claiming a unique perspective, i'm just explaining my perspective!

and i'm sure that it's a highly emotional subject to people other that mothers, any human being should be upset by this story and i'm sure everyone here is!

but these kind of threads just always seem to get so out of hand with everybody turning on everybody else. and i know we should be able to discuss these things logically but for me my emotions won't let me do it, that's why i usually stay away from threads like this but this one got to me, i guess after reading the title i never should have read the story!

and before you say anything, it's not about being a mother, i've always been a highly emotional person, sorry but thats just me!

and yes the parents of those two boys should hold the prime responsibility for what they did, i do agree with you about that.
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Post by spot »

I won't even ask whether you think they should have been released.

Everyone in this thread who says the boys shouldn't have been paroled even if they were successfully rehabilitated - and it's been said - is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys shouldn't have had an effort made to rehabilitate them is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys should never have been released is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys should have been executed is an extremist. I am not an extremist, I'm normal, but precious few of the rest of you qualify.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Post by G#Gill »

spot;903291 wrote: To be perfectly frank, if I see even one more "speaking as a mother" I'll post a youtube link to Bill Bailey's minor eruption on the subject. This is a highly emotive subject to a lot of us, mothers or otherwise. Stop claiming a uniquely valid perspective.

"The parents of those two boys too" hold the prime responsibility for what happened, it's a pity no court was invited to express its opinion on their behaviour.


Oh just shut up Spot, go and make yourself a cup of tea ! Hey you said 'US' !!!! I really hope you are not including yourself in that, because as far as I can tell the only 'emotive' as regards yourself is your pedanticism !!! I too speak as a mother, by the way !!!!! Oh and another thing, I do not think that anybody in this thread were 'claiming uniquely valid perspective' that was just what you chose to read into the words typed by posters. Fathers, grandfathers, uncles etc. are certainly entitled and most welcome to make their point of view I'm sure !

Please go and have your cup of tea Spot.

If you post that dreadful Youtube link by Bill Bailey, it is in such bad taste that I will be forced to press the report button. Just stop to think for a minute if you can Spot. Just think what this thread is about, and just imagine, if you can, who may be reading it. You see I knew you had no feelings for other peoples' feelings.

An apology for threatening such an action would not go amiss.
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Post by Hope6 »

spot;903302 wrote: I won't even ask whether you think they should have been released.

Everyone in this thread who says the boys shouldn't have been paroled even if they were successfully rehabilitated - and it's been said - is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys shouldn't have had an effort made to rehabilitate them is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys should never have been released is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys should have been executed is an extremist. I am not an extremist, I'm normal, but precious few of the rest of you qualify.


well i haven't given my opinion yet on any of that so i'm not in your extremist catagory!

but i will say that yes they should have attempted to rehablitate them everybody deserves that chance i guess!

as for the rest of it, i'm not sure of my opinion yet!
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;903311 wrote: Please go and have your cup of tea Spot.I am, as it happens, too occupied to do that, I find I have Felicity to look after for the next three weeks. It's my job during that time to make sure she grows up to be a responsible adult. If I manage that, she'll be in the minority.
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Post by Hope6 »

G#Gill;903311 wrote: Oh just shut up Spot, go and make yourself a cup of tea ! Hey you said 'US' !!!! I really hope you are not including yourself in that, because as far as I can tell the only 'emotive' as regards yourself is your pedanticism !!! I too speak as a mother, by the way !!!!! Oh and another thing, I do not think that anybody in this thread were 'claiming uniquely valid perspective' that was just what you chose to read into the words typed by posters. Fathers, grandfathers, uncles etc. are certainly entitled and most welcome to make their point of view I'm sure !

Please go and have your cup of tea Spot.

If you post that dreadful Youtube link by Bill Bailey, it is in such bad taste that I will be forced to press the report button. Just stop to think for a minute if you can Spot. Just think what this thread is about, and just imagine, if you can, who may be reading it. You see I knew you had no feelings for other peoples' feelings.

An apology for threatening such an action would not go amiss.


You make a great point Gill! there could be parents who have had children who have been murdered reading this thread, with all the guests this forum always has we don't know who's reading out posts!
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Post by Tombstone »

At the risk of straying off the subject, may I ask a potentially unpopular question?

This has been a full thread describing the mis-deeds of our youth in society. There has also been a lot of talk about how "government" or "society" should react to these events.

Should we back up the clock a little bit and talk about the parents? (Parents of gang members, child murderers, etc.) What about their responsibility? Do they have any? It sure doesn't seem so.

Just putting a few thoughts out there...
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

Spot, for as long as I've been on here, you've come across as a right sanctimonious know-it-all. I can just see you writing a post, finishing it and kicking back thinking "job well done." The smugness radiating from your corner is stifling.

Do you know what an extremist is or have you just heard the word used a few times in bad context and thought "that's a good one to use"?

For your information: Extremism is a term used to describe the actions or ideologies of individuals or groups outside the perceived political center of a society.

Just because I and others on this thread don't a*s kiss the laws of this land like you doesn't give you the right to make out like we're trying to drown a brood of kittens or something. We just don't believe child killers are, and I quote you, "victims too".

For every bit of extremist I am, I find you for too pious for your own good.
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Post by TheBlackWhisper »

Parents should definitely be held responsibly to some level for this atrocity but again I believe it is the pupertrators who should be punished.

Parents whose kids don't go to school can find themselves locked up or fined. This is because they have failed to install a sense of authority over their child and also have failed to bring them into line. But ultimately it's the kids who are acting out and refusing to go so should the parents be punished even further or should we as a society finally wake up and realise kids are a lot wiser than we were a few years ago and should be treated and punished as such.
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Post by spot »

TheBlackWhisper;903517 wrote: Spot, for as long as I've been on here, you've come across as a right sanctimonious know-it-all.And you've been a member for - four days, is it? One wonders what you'll come across as after another three years' bedding in.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Post by spot »

TheBlackWhisper;903517 wrote: For your information: Extremism is a term used to describe the actions or ideologies of individuals or groups outside the perceived political center of a society.What a staggering coincidence. That's exactly what I meant by it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by G#Gill »

I certainly agree that indeed both sets of parents are responsible for the behaviour of their children. When I had a child of the age of Jamie Bulger, whenever I went out with him, he was either in a pushchair or I put his harness on with reins. I very rarely see mothers using these harnesses these days and it seems so stupid, because they are brilliant for peace of mind. They are still available ! That child would never have wandered off if his mother had used reins! I am sure she will never stop blaming herself for putting her little boy into danger like that, by her lack of responsible thought.

As regards the two killer children. I do say that each of their parents should have been made responsible for their sons' actions. They should have been aware that those boys often 'bunked off' school, and also the school should be accountable for apparently not informing the parents that their sons were missing from the school that day. On the boys' own admission they were frequently absconding from school. So what happened to communication from school to parent, prior to that fateful day?

Seems to me there was a total lack of control and discipline with regard to the two 10 year olds, and therefore huge responsibility should rest on the respective parents. Those parents should also have gone to court with a charge of failing to control their sons in a responsible manner, at the very least. At most, because of their failure with their sons, they should be held partly responsible for the resultant terrible and horrifying murder of that little toddler.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by G#Gill »

TheBlackWhisper;903517 wrote: Spot, for as long as I've been on here, you've come across as a right sanctimonious know-it-all. I can just see you writing a post, finishing it and kicking back thinking "job well done." The smugness radiating from your corner is stifling.

Do you know what an extremist is or have you just heard the word used a few times in bad context and thought "that's a good one to use"?

For your information: Extremism is a term used to describe the actions or ideologies of individuals or groups outside the perceived political center of a society.

Just because I and others on this thread don't a*s kiss the laws of this land like you doesn't give you the right to make out like we're trying to drown a brood of kittens or something. We just don't believe child killers are, and I quote you, "victims too".

For every bit of extremist I am, I find you for too pious for your own good.


BW, I think you will find that probably what you say in your first paragraph could be Spot's 'raison d' étre ' !!
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by spot »

K.Snyder;902712 wrote: I'm not willing to bet the majority of murderers whom are released never commit another act of murder let alone another crime detrimental to society...


Select Committee on Home Affairs Fifth Report: The application of the draft guideline to murder

Release must be directed by the Parole Board, and cannot occur unless the prisoner is regarded as not dangerous. The Parole Board may only review cases once the tariff has been served, and the majority of mandatory lifers are not released after the first review. Recidivism rates are extremely low (around 3%).

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/c ... irst_match

That's the proportion of murderers in England released on licence who subsequently re-offend and come before a court on another charge. Not necessarily of murder - any charge at all. One in thirty. Not, as you suggest, the possibility that a majority of released killers kill again - one in thirty have further trouble of any sort with the law, the remaining twenty nine don't. That's definitely lower than the offending rate of the whole population.

If I see a figure for the number of murderers released on parole in England who then murder again I'll produce it. I'm sure it exists. I'm sure it's very low indeed. I'd hope it was also lower than the background murder rate among the whole population or the parole board's not doing its job right, the way I defined my ideal of their responsibility earlier.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by spot »

G#Gill;903534 wrote: BW, I think you will find that probably what you say in your first paragraph could be Spot's 'raison d' étre ' !!
You're entirely mistaken as to my motive. My motive is to discuss the topic of the thread knowing that for every participant here there's another hundred people who will read it and draw their own conclusions, partly on the basis of what's said here. It's them I'm writing to, not you.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by G#Gill »

spot;903543 wrote: You're entirely mistaken as to my motive. My motive is to discuss the topic of the thread knowing that for every participant here there's another hundred people who will read it and draw their own conclusions, partly on the basis of what's said here. It's them I'm writing to, not you.


Oh, is that why you said "Because they were all victims in their own right" in answer to TheBlackWhisper's question :- "You've defended killer after killer on this thread. Why ?" because you were writing to the 'guests' reading this thread and nobody else, regardless of the fact that there may be 'guests' who have had similar violence against them or their children, or even the possibility of the actual parents of Jamie Bulger reading what you are writing ! Is that why you answered like that Spot ??

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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by spot »

G#Gill;903577 wrote: Oh, is that why you said "Because they were all victims in their own right" in answer to TheBlackWhisper's question :- "You've defended killer after killer on this thread. Why ?" because you were writing to the 'guests' reading this thread and nobody else, regardless of the fact that there may be 'guests' who have had similar violence against them or their children, or even the possibility of the actual parents of Jamie Bulger reading what you are writing ! Is that why you answered like that Spot ??

Words fail me.


I have no idea at all how anyone would go about helping either Ralph Bulger or Denise Fergus. Neither have had a sympathetic portrayal in the press and yet she in particular appears to be in thrall to Fleet Street's tabloid vulture reporters whenever the papers feel a desire to wheel her back into the limelight. Would having the two lads' identites revealed give them peace? Would vigilante assaults on them? They've individually invited it in the past, they've been reported to have gloated at the prospect and to have revelled in the idea that neither would be able to build a new life. It gives justice a bad name to be associated with that sort of demand and yet the preponderance of this thread is that such assaults would be justice - isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

My interest is in sentencing and prison reform. I'd have thought that was apparent by now. I believe very little of what Fleet Street tells me about Ralph Bulger or Denise Fergus though.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by Chezzie »

Tombstone;903514 wrote: At the risk of straying off the subject, may I ask a potentially unpopular question?

This has been a full thread describing the mis-deeds of our youth in society. There has also been a lot of talk about how "government" or "society" should react to these events.

Should we back up the clock a little bit and talk about the parents? (Parents of gang members, child murderers, etc.) What about their responsibility? Do they have any? It sure doesn't seem so.

Just putting a few thoughts out there...


Of course they do. Myself as a parent, im responsible for my childrens actions. If they do wrong it reflects on me and my parenting skills.

What is bugging me here is the "assumptions" made that these boys and mary bell are "definately reformed and wont reoffend, thats a false assumption because no one knows 100% for sure.

I also believe 8 years wasnt long enough to fully reabilitate them, I personally believe they shouldnt of been released when they were, ive done child care NVQ'S and some child protection so Im not talking completely out of my back side.

Ok so those boys had a terrible upbringing, so have many more who didnt go on to be violent or troublesome. If those boys hadnt murdered Jamie in such a vile way, torturing him, I probably could look on it a whole lot differently, but they did and for that reason I personally feel sick to the pit of my stomach at the prospect of one of those boys (men now) ever having the opportunity to place their hands on my daughters. Obviously the chances are slim, I bet Denise thought the chances of her little boy being taken and violently murdered were slim too.

Im not a sadistic person nor am I an extremist, far from it actually. I believe people are allowed to make a mistake in life and learn from it etc....However these boys are different, I believe their minds are warped and twisted, they didnt just murder Jamie, they tortured him in the worst possible way. Also they didnt just target him because they didnt like the look of him or due to a family fued etc...they picked him because the kids they first set their sights on got away, they deliberately wanted to hurt someone that day, unfortunately it was poor Jamie.

Just because we feel differently to you Spot, doesnt make us wrong or you right and visa versa. The difference is we dont ask you to change your opinion but you constantly goad us in your replies to change ours..

Cant we just have a difference of opinion on this forum without feeling belittled and be called names for doing so. I dont call anyone names for having an opinion.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by spot »

Nobody ever said definitely, nobody ever said 100%, and I don't call anyone names for having an opinion either. If I describe them as extremists it's because they've claimed they represent the centre ground and it's quite clear, as I've argued, that they don't. Neither do vigilantes. England has a long evolving continuous history of sentencing and prison policy. I stand inside that evolution, the others don't. The others are revolutionists.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by Chezzie »

Chezzie;899512 wrote: So your telling me that you can 100% for sure say that Mary Bell hasnt re offended???


spot;899514 wrote: I'm quite sure that the police and the prison parole service have paid close attention to her since her release, which makes me more confident that she hasn't killed since her release than I would be of a random stranger.


spot;902015 wrote: No.

Because you're including people like the children this thread's discussed, who are so blatantly victims of their environments and so evidently successfully rehabilitated that I'm not prepared to close the door on them just to find agreement with you.


spot;902022 wrote: Go and read Lord Woolfe, he explains it quite well. The entire rehabilitation system of the country threw itself into getting the two of them right - and Mary Bell before them. They're showcase models of rehabilitation. They're the best we can do. What's more, there's no other killers in England I'd have chosen ahead of them for the prospect of being mended even on the grounds of blame and responsibility. These two are the least responsible killers I've ever heard of in my life, nobody else is more deserving of the effort to undo the damage they'd undergone at the hands of their families.


spot;902561 wrote: On the contrary, I maintain that if she had broken a law - most especially if she'd killed - she'd have had her parole license revoked. I maintain that her continued freedom past fifty means she's not behaved criminally since her release.

If, as you suggest, her mind has been a fermenting morass of murderous thoughts, then that's even more kudos to the rehabilitation process than if she'd not had even a single fleeting desire to hurt someone.

Whether you count the state of her mind as relevant or not - and I'd argue that it's not - there's good evidence that she's killed nobody since she was declared reformed.


spot;903302 wrote: I won't even ask whether you think they should have been released



Everyone in this thread who says the boys shouldn't have been paroled even if they were successfully rehabilitated - and it's been said - is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys shouldn't have had an effort made to rehabilitate them is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys should never have been released is an extremist. Everyone in this thread who says the boys should have been executed is an extremist. I am not an extremist, I'm normal, but precious few of the rest of you qualify.


So you now agree that they may not be fully reformed? I highlighted your words that led me to believe you did think they were totally reformed, totally being fully so 100%...If iv'e misread you fine, i apologise but thats how it came across.



My views on these boys and what they did are not the views of someone who advocates or resorts to measures beyond the norm as I feel my views are infact in the majority. I am not an extremist in any way shape or form just because I have an opinion on these two murderers and im extremely unhappy in being called one on a public forum.

spot;903705 wrote: Nobody ever said definitely, nobody ever said 100%, and I don't call anyone names for having an opinion either. If I describe them as extremists it's because they've claimed they represent the centre ground and it's quite clear, as I've argued, that they don't. Neither do vigilantes. England has a long evolving continuous history of sentencing and prison policy. I stand inside that evolution, the others don't. The others are revolutionists.


I dont represent anyone except myself and my views.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by kayleneaussie »

I am baffled as to why this thread is still going. No one is ever going to agree with each other, we have all gave our opinions why keep this going:thinking:

As to Tombstones Post when I go out with any child they are always in the pram or holding my hand I never ever let them out of my sight. As to the two other boys as a parent my children at that age would never of been allowed to be wandering around by them selves so yes the parents do have a lot to answer to:(

We have to remember a child has been murdered in a horrific manner so we shouldnt be fighting about who is right or who is wrong, as I said before we have all stated what we think so lets let this thread rest in peace and stop dragging it out.:(
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by K.Snyder »

spot;903291 wrote: To be perfectly frank, if I see even one more "speaking as a mother" I'll post a youtube link to Bill Bailey's minor eruption on the subject. This is a highly emotive subject to a lot of us, mothers or otherwise. Stop claiming a uniquely valid perspective.

"The parents [or, to be more precise, the immediate families] of those two boys too" hold the prime responsibility for what happened, it's a pity no court was invited to express its opinion on their behaviour - and the same goes for Mary Bell's.


Yes but that's just it...The "damage" these two boys' parents has caused is unchangeable to the eyes of those opposed to your idea that these two boys are rehabilitated so it's completely pointless to keep dragging this same old BS on this thread out...I'm not saying that you're the only one by any means...

Just that in every instance you bring up your opinion(Opinion because it has of yet to be proven that these two boys will not commit another heinous crime let alone murder, at the same time weighing whether or not, hypothetically speaking, if they were to never commit another heinous crime that it's not completely coincidence -- Which should most probably be the grounds for another topic) which is that these two boys are completely trustworthy in never committing another heinous crime again shouldn't not be expected to get a response to the contrary...

At the same time Spot's just merely pointing out that these two people are "rehabilitated" so the fact in regards to these two boys' "rightful" punishment should be discussed in a thread specifically designed for that discussion and is irrelevant to this case...
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by mrsK »

Tombstone;903514 wrote: At the risk of straying off the subject, may I ask a potentially unpopular question?

This has been a full thread describing the mis-deeds of our youth in society. There has also been a lot of talk about how "government" or "society" should react to these events.

Should we back up the clock a little bit and talk about the parents? (Parents of gang members, child murderers, etc.) What about their responsibility? Do they have any? It sure doesn't seem so.

Just putting a few thoughts out there...


The parents are responsible for the way they bring up their children.

Once these children get to a certain age here they can basically do what they want.

They are told their rights at a young age & some of these kids know the system inside out.I am not saying all but most kids that know the system inside out are kids who are in trouble.

Unless kids are severly disabled they know right from wrong at an early age.

These killers knew right from wrong . I would never let rehabilitated child killers/murderers babysit anyone I know. Never ever.

Call me strange ,say what you will,I think a lot of parents,grandparents,uncles,aunties,cousins feel the same way.

I will do a survey at school today & see what I come up with.
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UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer

Post by AussiePam »

Are sociopaths born or do they become that way? Nature or nurture?
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