Trump Pulling Back In Syria

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Ahso!
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Trump Pulling Back In Syria

Post by Ahso! »

Is Trump doing this for Turkey under the guise of reducing US involvement in "forever wars"? Turkey has spent serious money with us lately. Is this part two of a "beautiful deal"?

Your thoughts?
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Post by LarsMac »

Leaving the Kurds to their final fate.

ISIS is all but dispatched, supposedly, so the US no longer has need of them.
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Post by gmc »

This is the third time the kurds have been shafted by the US. The turks want to exterminate them. Turkey has one of the most powerful militaries in the region and fundamentalist muslims have taken control over what was once a secular state.

In fairness to trump I don't think he can grasp the seriousness of what he had just done.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1526068 wrote: This is the third time the kurds have been shafted by the US. The turks want to exterminate them. Turkey has one of the most powerful militaries in the region and fundamentalist muslims have taken control over what was once a secular state.

In fairness to trump I don't think he can grasp the seriousness of what he had just done.


He’s the leader of the most powerful state in the world, it’s his job to understand the issues before he acts.
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Post by spot »

If it persuades future foreign mercenaries from acting as America's cannon fodder whenever the White House of the day decides it wants to interfere in the internal affairs of yet another sovereign nation, then I'm all in favor of abandoning the previous gullible militia that signed up for the job. It's a dire warning to whoever is next tempted by cash and weaponry.

The Kurds suffered 11,000 dead while acting under American direction in Syria, if I heard that right earlier this week. Without them, and with no ability to take casualties itself, America's belligerent foreign policy would have been hamstrung.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1526086 wrote: If it persuades future foreign mercenaries from acting as America's cannon fodder whenever the White House of the day decides it wants to interfere in the internal affairs of yet another sovereign nation, then I'm all in favor of abandoning the previous gullible militia that signed up for abandonment. It's a dire warning to whoever is next tempted by cash and weaponry.

The Kurds suffered 11,000 dead while acting under American direction in Syria, if I heard that right earlier this week. Without them, and with no ability to take casualties itself, America's belligerent foreign policy would have been hamstrung.


They're not simply foreign mercenaries there are some 30 million of them with the misfortune to be in an area rich in resources and bounded bounded by turkey, iran, iraq (it was kurds that saddam hussein used chical weapons against following in the footsteps of the british) and syria. (follow the oil). Turkey is going to ethnically cleanse the area. The kurds were there long before the arabs and turks.

Be interesting to see what the rest of the kurds in turkey decide to do -erdogan jailed their leaders.
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Trump Pulling Back In Syria

Post by spot »

gmc;1526090 wrote: They're not simply foreign mercenaries there are some 30 million of them with the misfortune to be in an area rich in resources and bounded bounded by turkey, iran, iraq (it was kurds that saddam hussein used chical weapons against following in the footsteps of the british) and syria. (follow the oil). Turkey is going to ethnically cleanse the area. The kurds were there long before the arabs and turks.

Be interesting to see what the rest of the kurds in turkey decide to do -erdogan jailed their leaders.


No, the Kurdish armed volunteer militia hired by America to fight their proxy war do not total 30 million. With their camp-followers they might amount to a quarter of a million. There are other Kurds in the world beside this mercenary force. The pre-war Syrian Kurd population was less than 2 million and I'd guess over half of those have fled Syria in the last decade.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

gmc;1526068 wrote:

In fairness to trump I don't think he can grasp the seriousness of what he had just done.


He understands, he just doesn't care. Like all sociopaths, no one exists outside of him. gmc, you (of all people)using the word fairness & trump in the same breath is a knife in my heart. Please don't do it again.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1526093 wrote: No, the Kurdish armed volunteer militia hired by America to fight their proxy war do not total 30 million. With their camp-followers they might amount to a quarter of a million. There are other Kurds in the world beside this mercenary force. The pre-war Syrian Kurd population was less than 2 million and I'd guess over half of those have fled Syria in the last decade.


It's not as simple or black amd white as you picture it. Why are there so many around the world? The kurds have been fighting for their own country ever since the ottoman empire took it off them. Turkey was one of the geat superpowers now they are after old glories and are no longer a secular state. God is with them.
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Trump Pulling Back In Syria

Post by spot »

gmc;1526106 wrote: It's not as simple or black amd white as you picture it. Why are there so many around the world? The kurds have been fighting for their own country ever since the ottoman empire took it off them. Turkey was one of the geat superpowers now they are after old glories and are no longer a secular state. God is with them.


I don't dispute that in the slightest. I'm discussing the American-financed American-armed Kurdish volunteer militia in Syria which has just been abandoned on the instruction of President Trump, not the historical justification for Kurdistan.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1526107 wrote: I don't dispute that in the slightest. I'm discussing the American-financed American-armed Kurdish volunteer militia in Syria which has just been abandoned on the instruction of President Trump, not the historical justification for Kurdistan.


So the upcoming genocide is justified because the americans trained and supplied some of the fighters? Some of the female peshmerga soldiers were yazidi women who joind the ranks after isis attacked their communities and took many of the women as slaves. I suppose you think they should have just stayed at home instead of becoming mercenaries and taking american weapons to attack isis. Trump has given a green light for this invasion to suggest the kurds were not aware of how unreliable the americans were likely to be is imo a mistake.

Best way to look at it is what would you do in their position?
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Post by spot »

gmc;1526123 wrote: So the upcoming genocide is justified?


Justified? Of course it isn't justified, the Turkish government is a repressive tyranny which in an ideal world would see a revolution and the dismantling of its entire military capacity.

What I have applauded is America's abandonment of its paid mercenary fighting force in Syria. No group should ever trust America to stand by it instead of walk away when America's interests have been satisfied.

Throwing this particular Kurdish volunteer militia to the wolves is exemplary. Turkey then crossing the border and bombing Kurdish population centres in Syria should be answered with a war crime tribunal, and the President of Turkey locked in a secure jail in the Hague for several decades.
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Post by LarsMac »

Fascinated to see a "tweet" from Netanyahu condemning The Turkish action in N Syria.
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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1526130 wrote: Fascinated to see a "tweet" from Netanyahu condemning The Turkish action in N Stria.


He must have been laughing his socks off as he wrote it then. Did he add a smiley?
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Post by gmc »

spot;1526124 wrote: Justified? Of course it isn't justified, the Turkish government is a repressive tyranny which in an ideal world would see a revolution and the dismantling of its entire military capacity.

What I have applauded is America's abandonment of its paid mercenary fighting force in Syria. No group should ever trust America to stand by it instead of walk away when America's interests have been satisfied.

Throwing this particular Kurdish volunteer militia to the wolves is exemplary. Turkey then crossing the border and bombing Kurdish population centres in Syria should be answered with a war crime tribunal, and the President of Turkey locked in a secure jail in the Hague for several decades.


It had a revolution unfortunately it turned a secular state in to an islamic one. Like many dictators they use religion to get control. Turkey has one of the most powerful militaries in the middle east stopping them now will mean all out war.
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Post by spot »

We don't do war any longer, and I didn't say I thought Turkey could be stopped. I do think the current Turkish leadership could be prosecuted at a tribunal in due course though. If anyone would like to set up a fund to make it happen I'll contribute.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1526140 wrote: We don't do war any longer, and I didn't say I thought Turkey could be stopped. I do think the current Turkish leadership could be prosecuted at a tribunal in due course though. If anyone would like to set up a fund to make it happen I'll contribute.


There are quite a few people around the world who might disagree with you on that one.

Turkey is not going to stop especially for an international tribunal whose authority it does not recognise, The united states does not recognise the jurisdiction of international courts over it's military why should turkey?

Turkey has the second largest military in Nato. While size does not necessarily equate to quality it is by no means of a size that can be intimidated in to submission. I reiterate the only way to stop turkey having it's way now is warfare. Hopefully I am wrong.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1526145 wrote: I reiterate the only way to stop turkey having it's way now is warfare. Hopefully I am wrong.


I'm wondering which army is going to be sent to this war you propose, you need two parties before a war can break out. Who would fight Turkish troops? The Russians, Iraqis, Iranians, Americans, NATO, are all allies of Turkey, so you'll need to look further afield to find a defender for the Kurds. That's been Kurdistan's problem ever since it failed to be born.

I can't see Israel chancing its arm outside its own borders. Well, Palestinian and Jordanian and Egyptian and maybe even Lebanese borders too, but not for a Kurdish enclave. Israeli troops north of the Euphrates? Even God never gave them that much territory.

Is there an Armenian army? Maybe we can field a Kazakh division or two, or a boatload of Cubans.

I have the answer! Simon Mann! All we need do is tell him there's oil rights to be had.

The Kurds have no friends but the mountains. Turkey, on the other hand, has three million refugees in pens just begging for the Turkish border into Europe to be opened for them, that's the ace in the hole reason everyone kowtows to President Erdogan.
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I was just reading that it seems the Orange One figures that he can now step in and negotiate a settlement to stop the fighting. Perhaps his next venture to get that Nobel Peace Prize that he has been coveting?
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Post by gmc »

spot;1526146 wrote: I'm wondering which army is going to be sent to this war you propose, you need two parties before a war can break out. Who would fight Turkish troops? The Russians, Iraqis, Iranians, Americans, NATO, are all allies of Turkey, so you'll need to look further afield to find a defender for the Kurds. That's been Kurdistan's problem ever since it failed to be born.

I can't see Israel chancing its arm outside its own borders. Well, Palestinian and Jordanian and Egyptian and maybe even Lebanese borders too, but not for a Kurdish enclave. Israeli troops north of the Euphrates? Even God never gave them that much territory.

Is there an Armenian army? Maybe we can field a Kazakh division or two, or a boatload of Cubans.

I have the answer! Simon Mann! All we need do is tell him there's oil rights to be had.

The Kurds have no friends but the mountains. Turkey, on the other hand, has three million refugees in pens just begging for the Turkish border into Europe to be opened for them, that's the ace in the hole reason everyone kowtows to President Erdogan.


You misunderstand or more likely I haven't made my point well. I'm not proposing a war I am pointing out that imo the only way turkey will be stopped is by warfare. That means imo that they will be able to do what they want because as you point out who is going to fight them. The wars over the last thirty years fought by the western powers or so have been powerful groups taking on weaker ones that realistically did not have much of a chance. Turkey is a whole different ballgame.

Successful dictators tend to hang on to power especially if god is on his side, he's stifled internal opposition and he has external targets. What if erdogan turns his attention to greece again - maybe he'll take a leaf out of donald trump's book and unilaterally abrogate international treaties and agreements what will greece be able to do about it what will nato do.
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Post by Saint_ »

Honestly, I'm trying to understand what, exactly, America gets out of all the lives and treasure we have spent in that region.

We don't need their oil anymore. I'd say it's time to abandon that entire part of the world.
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Post by spot »

Saint_;1526170 wrote: Honestly, I'm trying to understand what, exactly, America gets out of all the lives and treasure we have spent in that region.

We don't need their oil anymore. I'd say it's time to abandon that entire part of the world.


You have, for the first time in living memory, an isolationist President. What more could you want.
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Post by LarsMac »

Saint_;1526170 wrote: Honestly, I'm trying to understand what, exactly, America gets out of all the lives and treasure we have spent in that region.

We don't need their oil anymore. I'd say it's time to abandon that entire part of the world.


We buy the oil from them, so we can save our reserves for when the they hike the price. They can no longer hold us hostage with their oil. (for now)

We also leave our oil in the ground while we take the Natural Gas.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the ... untry.html

https://www.hydrocarbons-technology.com ... -reserves/
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Bryn Mawr;1526082 wrote: He’s the leader of the most powerful state in the world, it’s his job to understand the issues before he acts.


Aaaand by that definition he has never done his job correctly once...
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spot;1526172 wrote: You have, for the first time in living memory, an isolationist President. What more could you want.


An isolationist president who is sane?
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Post by spot »

Saint_;1526202 wrote: An isolationist president who is sane?


The sane ones clearly don't want the job. Stands to reason.
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Post by Ahso! »

So, has Trump trumped the Democrats, yet again? He's left them all exposed as the pro-endless-war mongers they've been since the Buba administration.

With headlines like "Agreement to pause Turkey’s campaign in Syria destroys US credibility, top Democrats say, despite demanding it" and pieces like "Trump’s Ending of Wars Could Derail the Democrats" it's difficult for the Democratic party elites to escape a fate of possible irrelevancy.

The only comments I recall from the last debate that echoed Trump's policy of ending these wars was from Bernie Sanders' passing comment, and of course, Tulsi Gabbard's shaming of her competitors. Granted, the links I've provided are from RT News, which often leans right, and Truthdig, which is pretty far left. Neither being read as much as the establishment media sites like NYT, WP, MSNBC, CNN, and others, where one will not find such honesty, but for those of us who look beyond establishment propaganda, it's eye-bulging stuff.
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Ahso!;1526286 wrote: So, has Trump trumped the Democrats, yet again? He's left them all exposed as the pro-endless-war mongers they've been since the Buba administration.

With headlines like "Agreement to pause Turkey’s campaign in Syria destroys US credibility, top Democrats say, despite demanding it" and pieces like "Trump’s Ending of Wars Could Derail the Democrats" it's difficult for the Democratic party elites to escape a fate of possible irrelevancy.

The only comments I recall from the last debate that echoed Trump's policy of ending these wars was from Bernie Sanders' passing comment, and of course, Tulsi Gabbard's shaming of her competitors. Granted, the links I've provided are from RT News, which often leans right, and Truthdig, which is pretty far left. Neither being read as much as the establishment media sites like NYT, WP, MSNBC, CNN, and others, where one will not find such honesty, but for those of us who look beyond establishment propaganda, it's eye-bulging stuff.


I am far more concerned with headlines such as,

Trump hails a cease-fire deal with Turkey, but its effect was largely to mitigate a grave foreign policy crisis of his own creation.

Fighting continues in spite of "Cease Fire" : AP journalists witness continued fighting in a northeast Syrian town at the center of the fight between Turkey and Kurdish forces, despite a U.S.-brokered cease-fire that went into effect hours earlier.

White House shifts position on Ukraine (Mick Mulvaney, acting chief of staff, acknowledges that Trump’s decision to hold up military aid to Ukraine was linked to his demand that Kyiv investigate the Democratic National Committee and the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign.)

These are from AP, not some political lackey rag.

I am also concerned that with the US "pull-out" leaving a number of nuclear weapons in the hands of Erdogan.

That is a pretty serious "WTF?!?"

Erdogan: "I Don't Accept" Being Told Turkey Can't Have Nuclear Weapons
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Post by LarsMac »

So, an observation from a fellow I have been following for a while:



A ceasefire whereby Turkey and Russia get everything they want -- including the US abandoning the region -- and the Kurds being thrown off their land or slaughtered.

Now, for this ceasefire to hold, Turkey's leader Erdogan said this morning: "It's the responsibility of the United States to ensure that Kurdish fighters withdraw in the 120-hour window."

Ah.

You see it, right?

That's the Joker in the deck. Right there.

It's the responsibility of the United States.

The United States.

It's our job to see all Kurdish fighters are removed from an area designated by Erdogan and Putin.

Got it?

And we have 5 days, 120 hours, to get it done -- using ... troops that have already retreated from the area and bombed their own bases, I guess.

Or Turkey resumes its attack.

So, when the Turkish slaughter resumes, and it will, it will be blamed on the United States for not evacuating these alleged fighters. That's right. And Russia and Turkey will justify it by pointing to Trump's comment that Turkey has a right to "clean out" the Kurds.

Essentially what's happened here is that Trump sent Pence to Turkey to take responsibility for genocide and hand a brutal tyrant a get out of jail free card.


- Jim Wright, Stonekettle Station (http://www.stonekettle.com/)

And the Donald is very proud of this "Cease-fire"
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Post by High Threshold »

Looking at it from a logical perspective: Many of us have said the U.S. has no business there. So now we'll see.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1526287 wrote: These are from AP, not some political lackey rag.




It's becoming more and more difficult to trust any mainstream news organization, including the AP. "Triumph of Conventional Wisdom: AP Expunges Iran/Contra Pardons from Barr’s Record" https://consortiumnews.com/2019/01/16/t ... rs-record/

There are a lot more too.
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Post by spot »

One of the most objectionable aspects of the present President of Turkey is that he clearly believes part of his job is to have people killed. No politician on the planet should believe that and not be immediately criminalized by the collective world's governments. One day we might have a mechanism that locks these deviants up if they get to that stage.

Erdogan vows to 'crush heads' of Kurdish fighters
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Post by High Threshold »

spot;1526319 wrote: One of the most objectionable aspects of the present President of Turkey is that he clearly believes part of his job is to have people killed. No politician on the planet should believe that and not be immediately criminalized by the collective world's governments. One day we might have a mechanism that locks these deviants up if they get to that stage.

Erdogan vows to 'crush heads' of Kurdish fighters
“No politician on the planet should believe that”?

For the benefit of balanced observation I wonder how many American presidents we can name who do not/did not specifically order (or implement operations that included) the murder of world leaders as well as large numbers of their innocent countrymen? Now that is a difficult task. The CIA have been involved in assassinations to the tune exceeding my number of fingers and toes.
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Post by spot »

High Threshold;1526323 wrote: For the benefit of balanced observation I wonder how many American presidents we can name who do not/did not specifically order (or implement operations that included) the murder of world leaders as well as large numbers of their innocent countrymen? Now that is a difficult task. The CIA have been involved in assassinations to the tune exceeding my number of fingers and toes.


I'm not sure why you exclude those who oversaw the murder of large numbers of foreigners, that would have been far easier.

From memory I could only comment on Presidents from around 1870 onward, and I start out hazy. We can start with the deliberate genocide of First People tribes, the presidents who sent out the army with commanders like Custer to achieve America's Manifest Destiny. The ones Hollywood spent generations venerating. John Wayne and stagecoaches, for example. The arrival of the cavalry in the final reel. The American Lie.

Were Presidents in the loop with the Pinkertons assassinating union organizers and strikers? I'd not be at all surprised but I don't actually know. That gets us as far as 1914, say. After the way the FBI took over that role and we get the rise of Edgar J Hoover and I think the number of deaths goes up.

Post-war Presidents started killing foreign leaders as well. Beginning with Truman it's all of them until whenever it stopped. Obama did it, Bush did it, Clinton, Daddy Bush, I can't come up with a President who might not have. Did Ford or Carter preside over such murders? I can agree all the others did, without looking them up, just from memory.

Post-war Presidents also held office while their own countrymen were killed by the agencies, the only fog is the propaganda of the time saying the countrymen were guilty criminals who needed killing. The Black Panthers for example, whom I would describe as social activists. The various cult massacres where, every time, the authorities said the cult leaders were responsible.

But yes, your underlying accusation stands up very well.
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High Threshold
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Trump Pulling Back In Syria

Post by High Threshold »

spot;1526327 wrote: I'm not sure why you exclude those who oversaw the murder of large numbers of foreigners, that would have been far easier.
Because I was responding to the statement, "no politician on the planet" on the subject of the American president and Turkey.
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spot
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Trump Pulling Back In Syria

Post by spot »

High Threshold;1526335 wrote: Because I was responding to the statement, "no politician on the planet" on the subject of the American president and Turkey.


We both were, my meaning was within that set. Try I'm not sure why you exclude those American Presidents who oversaw the murder of large numbers of foreigners, that's more explicit but it's what I had in mind.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Raphael
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Trump Pulling Back In Syria

Post by Raphael »

The words below seem to summarise the true position .

Of course there are many reasons why the MSM do not want this known .

imho



" The Turkish invasion in northeast Syria was designed to give Trump a reason to withdraw U.S. troops. It was designed to push the Kurdish forces to finally submit to the Syrian government. Behind the scene Russia had already organized the replacement of the Kurdish forces with Syrian government troops. It has coordinated the Syrian army moves with the U.S. military. Turkey had agreed that Syrian government control would be sufficient to alleviate its concern about a Kurdish guerilla and a Kurdish proto-state at its border. Any further Turkish invasion of Syria is thereby unnecessary.

The plan has everyone winning. Turkey will be free of a Kurdish threat. Syria regains its territory. The U.S. can leave without further trouble. Russia and Iran gain standing. The Kurds get taken care of."
Ahso!
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Trump Pulling Back In Syria

Post by Ahso! »

Raphael;1526364 wrote: The words below seem to summarise the true position .

Of course there are many reasons why the MSM do not want this known .

imho



" The Turkish invasion in northeast Syria was designed to give Trump a reason to withdraw U.S. troops. It was designed to push the Kurdish forces to finally submit to the Syrian government. Behind the scene Russia had already organized the replacement of the Kurdish forces with Syrian government troops. It has coordinated the Syrian army moves with the U.S. military. Turkey had agreed that Syrian government control would be sufficient to alleviate its concern about a Kurdish guerilla and a Kurdish proto-state at its border. Any further Turkish invasion of Syria is thereby unnecessary.

The plan has everyone winning. Turkey will be free of a Kurdish threat. Syria regains its territory. The U.S. can leave without further trouble. Russia and Iran gain standing. The Kurds get taken care of."


Hi Raphael, and welcome to Forumgarden.

Thanks for the post. It is customary to include a link when quoting a source. This is so we can read the entire piece and see the source if we so choose.

I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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