Addiction self inflicted?

gmc
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by gmc »

This article got me thinking

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ar-illness

in particular.

As someone who has spent time in rehab for drink problems, I can tell you that it’s absolutely key to tackle this element of shame that is currently in his mind. Let me be clear: no more than someone suffering from cancer has he let anyone down. Not friends, family, colleagues, fans, or himself. He’s unwell, pure and simple, and he needs to go somewhere where he can get well – safely – and where he can learn the techniques he needs to remain safe and sober in the future.




Can't say I agree, someone with cancer has no choice in the matter someone who has become addicted does and can choose to come off it. Don't misunderstand I know the reasons for addiction are complex and can be tied in with mental health and in this particular case prescription painkillers seem to be the start of it.

But you can choose not to take drugs, not to drink not to gamble to compare it as an illness with cancer I find deeply offensive. There are people my age dying early for what are smoking related diseases heart attack, cancer etc. While I sympathise they knew the potential consequences and could have chosen not to smoke. There are poeple also dyingh because of smoking but where second hand smoke was the cause and they have reason to be angry although there is little point in being so.

But this annoys me addiction whatever the reason is self inflicted and be stopped. Or do you disaagree?
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spot
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by spot »

I think there are two conditions.

There's people who aren't addicted, and there's people who are addicted.

Someone who isn't addicted self-inflicts if they engage an addictive practice.

Someone who's addicted is unwell.

Neither person is in the same category as the other.
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Bruv
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Bruv »

Know what you are saying but disagree.

Some people have addictive personalities, I see it as a sort of mental illness.

I have known at least a couple of alcoholics, that would deny they are, it crept up on them, now to be normal it takes a can or two, or a swift shot.

Like anorexia it's easy to say to the sufferer ........Eat, or a gambling addict stay away from the betting shop, but the nature of addiction is it's just not as easy as that.
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gmc
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by gmc »

I'm not disputing addiction is an illness but it is not on a par, imo, with something like cancer where there is really no choice in the matter. Nor is it on a par with a mental illness like say schizophrenia. Anecdotally I know three people with manic depression where what brought it on seems to have been the use of marijuana not much of a sample I know but it is a factor in my non scientific opinion. I also knew people who were heavy drug users, being in a room with someone tripping on acid is a novel experience to put it mildly. I know drunkards (bear in mind where I live it was at times almost obligatory and getting totally wasted is still socially acceptable it took a lot of strength of character to turn roind and refuse to drink - it was like farting in a lift perty pooper is one of the milder epithets ) and alcoholics and junkies while I jave sympathy for the latter amnd think they should get help their illness is in large part self inflicted which was the point I was making.

posted by bruv

Like anorexia it's easy to say to the sufferer ........Eat, or a gambling addict stay away from the betting shop, but the nature of addiction is it's just not as easy as that.


Anorexia is a poor comparison with addiction sufferers don't have a lot of choice in their bahaviour addicts do. When you are sober you can decide not to have that first drink
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Bruv »

Think in everything you have said you have forgotten the word .......Addiction.

It might be choice to drink or not to drink or gamble or not to gamble......to start with.

But for that one person in a group of drinkers.........it becomes a need, sometimes a physical requirement to get to normality.

Sometimes an addict can function 'normally' after satisfying the craving, the only person to know would be the addict.

Those groups that sit in town centres with bottles of White Diamond are only the tip of a very big iceberg, the really intelligent capable addicts are doctors, bankers and MPs.
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gmc
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by gmc »

Bruv;1510340 wrote: Think in everything you have said you have forgotten the word .......Addiction.

It might be choice to drink or not to drink or gamble or not to gamble......to start with.

But for that one person in a group of drinkers.........it becomes a need, sometimes a physical requirement to get to normality.

Sometimes an addict can function 'normally' after satisfying the craving, the only person to know would be the addict.

Those groups that sit in town centres with bottles of White Diamond are only the tip of a very big iceberg, the really intelligent capable addicts are doctors, bankers and MPs.


Quite well aware of that but once more I reiterate that I do not consider alcohol or drug addiction an illness the same way as something like cancer or pneumonia is. It's the comparison I take umbrage at. Whatever the reason it starts be it stress or whatever it is any addiction is self inflicted. I've worked alongside functioning alcoholics I know people that became addicted to pain killers - and got themselves off them once they realised what was happening. Good luck to ant and as it happens I don't think he needs to apologise either but someone with cancer is going to die and there's usually **** all they can do about it and very seldom was it a lifestyle choice.

A child with leukemia or bone cancer did not cause their own illness by and large alcoholics and drug addicts do, while I sympathise to compare the two is in imo wrong.
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Clodhopper »

A child with leukemia or bone cancer did not cause their own illness by and large alcoholics and drug addicts do, while I sympathise to compare the two is in imo wrong.




How can I possibly argue with that?

All I'd add is that the heroin addict I know got there because she was originally prescribed valium, then when it was realised how bad it was she was taken off it. Straight to cold turkey with no relief and she was on valium for a reason (It was a wrong prescription imo, but that's how it was back then).

Then someone said hey, this'll take the edge off and she was hurting so much she did...

After a certain point, comparing tragedies is pointless. They're just effin tragedies. Kids with cancer or addiction top the tree as far as I'm concerned. No difference worth bothering about in the face of that sort of horrible as far as I can see.
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Mark Aspam »

I was just watching the nightly news (NBC) and there was a big report about opioid addiction in the USA. I had heard similar reports previously but this one was quite lengthy and scary. Addicts not convicted of any crime but confined in the local jail because there was no room in the hospitals.

I wouldn't know an opioid if it bit me on the ass. I'm not even sure that I'm spelling it correctly.

Does the UK have a similar problem?
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Clodhopper »

Without having seen the report I can't be sure, but we do have problems. Our cultures are linked, and if you have a problem, there's good chance it will end up over here. Drugs do. Your gangsters don't seem to have though, nor the mafia, come to that. Not sure why.

It's not all bad, of course. The musical interaction has historically been hugely influential in both directions, though the prevailing wind is westerly. :)
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Mark Aspam »

Clodhopper;1510359 wrote: Without having seen the report I can't be sure, but we do have problems. Our cultures are linked, and if you have a problem, there's good chance it will end up over here. Drugs do. Your gangsters don't seem to have though, nor the mafia, come to that. Not sure why.

It's not all bad, of course. The musical interaction has historically been hugely influential in both directions, though the prevailing wind is westerly. :)I'm not sure but I think if you google NBC News or NBC Nightly News you may be able to call up the report.

Regarding gangsters and Mafia, I haven't heard of such activity for years. But I live in a relatively small city, perhaps such scum is active elsewhere. Here we do have some drug peddlers though, they come and go, when they go it's usually to jail.
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Clodhopper »

Mark Aspam;1510361 wrote: I'm not sure but I think if you google NBC News or NBC Nightly News you may be able to call up the report.

Regarding gangsters and Mafia, I haven't heard of such activity for years. But I live in a relatively small city, perhaps such scum is active elsewhere. Here we do have some drug peddlers though, they come and go, when they go it's usually to jail.


I was thinking historically, not just about the present. Drugs we had as an issue independent of the States, I believe. Opium from India was the first thing that hooked people over here, I think (if we ignore booze and tobacco) then Cocaine which might have had a US connection. LSD certainly came from the US a few generations later along with the Hippie culture.

Found the report. Just awful. A short look into hell. When you've got whole families using stuff they said was many times more powerful than heroin then you get kids born addicted and family dying round you. What you have there looks like an epidemic of despair. What's worse is that few people seem able to break out of it completely. Some do, but not many.
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FourPart
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by FourPart »

There has to be some sort of transitionary stage between recreational & addiction. For instance, at which point does a Social Drinker cross the line to become an Alcoholic?

As for addiction being considered as an illness, I wouldn't necessarily agree. It can be the consequence of an illness, but not an illness in itself. I am also opposed to how alcoholics can be given vouchers to pay for drink because of it being considered a medical condition. Yes, of course there are varying circumstances as to how someone becomes addicted in the first place, but that's another matter. For instance, someone may have been put on morphine to kill the pain of an ongoing medical condition, such as a cancer, for example, but after having had treatment to remove the malignancy remains dependant on the morphine. The addiction is not, in itself, an illnes, but would require support in order to treat it. However, in order to break any sort of addiction the addict must first acknowledge that there is a problem & must WANT to break the addiction. This is where the difference between an illness and an addiction lies. An illness can be treated whether the patient acknowledges the problem or not. An addiction cannot.
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Bruv »

My wife's daughter was put on Tramadol for some reason, when seen by another doctor he was worried about the length of time she had been on it.

Don't know if tramadol is highly addictive, only that Frankie Boyle had a comedy series called Tramadol Nights, which I never watched anyway.

So it is not always entirely down to the addicted person's choice.
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Post by FourPart »

Bruv;1510384 wrote: My wife's daughter was put on Tramadol for some reason, when seen by another doctor he was worried about the length of time she had been on it.

Don't know if tramadol is highly addictive, only that Frankie Boyle had a comedy series called Tramadol Nights, which I never watched anyway.

So it is not always entirely down to the addicted person's choice.


That's exactly the point I was making. The cause may be an illness, but the addiction is not. It's most certainly a real thing, but the only one who can really break it is the addict themselves, ideally with the support of those closest to him / her. It's even been shown that putting drug addicts in prison & totally cleaning their system of the drug is of no use unless the addict wants to remain that way. Otherwise, as soon as they get out they're straight onto their next fix.
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Post by Bruv »

FourPart;1510386 wrote: It's even been shown that putting drug addicts in prison & totally cleaning their system of the drug is of no use unless the addict wants to remain that way. Otherwise, as soon as they get out they're straight onto their next fix.


Which sorta confirms the notion that it's a mental condition rather than an actual dependency on the substance ?
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Post by FourPart »

There are 2 types of addiction. There's the physical dependancy & the mental dependancy. The physical dependancy is that once it's out of your system, physically, be it by gradual withdrawal or by cold turkey, then it's out. There is also the mental addiction where the addict is convinced that they need it - much the same as Religion. In fact, in many ways, Religion could even be seen as an addiction. There's the Social users - those who just use it to meet with friends once a week & partake in a quick fix. Although they can also end up getting more & more involved in their Church activities, until they get to the point that they can't cope without it. It may sound flippant, but it is an addiction & works the same way nonetheless. It eases the reality of life for a brief moment, and then you want that escape more & more until the point when you can't face reality any more.
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Clodhopper »

Changing mental states in the way you describe is incredibly hard. Finding God appears to be one of the more successful ways of doing it (or substituting one addiction with another less harmful one, depending on your point of view). But when the drug is the only thing in their lives that has ever been reliable and good to them anything short of breaking the cycle completely is just sticking plaster over a gaping wound. Breaking the cycle involves destroying the poverty trap, in my opinion. Not easy.
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Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1510388 wrote: Which sorta confirms the notion that it's a mental condition rather than an actual dependency on the substance ?


It depends. Some substances are very physically addictive.

Nicotine, for example is monstrous. The toughest thing I ever did was to quit smoking. Heroin and other Opiates are very physically addicting.

Combine that with the behavioral addiction process, and you have a tough job getting off some addictions.

First step is always, get away from the stuff and wean the individual from the immediate contamination. Cleanse the system.

But after that, one must remove himself from the environment where the addiction is fed. Stop hanging out with the people who support the substance use. You cannot easily quit smoking tobacco if all the people you hang out with smoke. You cannot quit alcohol, and still hang out in the pub with all your pals for whom a few pints are part of the daily grind.

Well, some people can, but it takes a superhuman willpower, which, if you have, you probably would not have become addicted in the first place.

The physical part is relatively easy to handle. The social aspect is the tough part.

As to the "Self-inflicted" question.

Absolutely. We make these choices, often knowing that they will have serious impact, and think that "It won't happen to me."

The negative impact of tobacco smoking was well known by the time I was approaching my teens. So was Alcohol use. We did it anyway. We had to be cool and tough, and we weren't scared of all that stuff.
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Post by Bruv »

As I always said, giving up smoking is easy....................................I have done it 5 times before...........I wont be restarting anytime soon this time.

I know about the physical addiction, remove the source and it alters your concentration, mood, it can actually give pain.

I knew alcohol was addictive when I had my first pint, so why was it I and others in the same group of drinkers, with the same intake have escaped alcoholism when a few have succumbed ?

As well as a physical self inflicted side to the addiction, there is a mental dependence as well, amongst certain people
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Post by minks »

I am on the fence about it being an illness too.

Sadly for some it's an escape from something much larger and much more horrifying, it's a coping tactic.

Many times addiction is a result of abuse.

On the flip side, it starts with something that one finds pleasure in and suddenly one is lost deep within addictions grip.
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by magentaflame »

Mark Aspam;1510357 wrote: I was just watching the nightly news (NBC) and there was a big report about opioid addiction in the USA. I had heard similar reports previously but this one was quite lengthy and scary. Addicts not convicted of any crime but confined in the local jail because there was no room in the hospitals.

I wouldn't know an opioid if it bit me on the ass.


the drugs they give you after major surgeries. Most medical clinics have a sign and a list of drugs they will not prescribe unless you are under their doctors care for major health issues or surgeries.
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Post by magentaflame »

Bruv;1510384 wrote: My wife's daughter was put on Tramadol for some reason, when seen by another doctor he was worried about the length of time she had been on it.

Don't know if tramadol is highly addictive, only that Frankie Boyle had a comedy series called Tramadol Nights, which I never watched anyway.

So it is not always entirely down to the addicted person's choice.


I have tramadol. But on strict instruction to only take it when absolutely neccesary. (I can be trusted because i hate taking medications. and I know the difference between "oh my god I'm dying here" to " well it will take the edge off") My brtherinlaw on the other hand takes it like a lolly....that's how bad his back pain is.

I seem to have a real problem with these kind of drugs. They knock me around too much.

I still remember being accused of drunkiness on this very forum back in 2012..... I wasn't of course but the mixture of drugs I was on after surgery, made me feel fiiiine....but didn't come over too well outwardly. Was seeing pretty unicorns and rainbows and snippets of dance routines from Bonnie Doon
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Addiction self inflicted?

Post by Wandrin »

It has long been known that children of alcoholics/addicts are more likely to become alcoholics/addicts themselves. I vaguely recall reading about a study that tried to see if this correlation extends to those who don't remember or never met the addicted parent. As I recall, they found a correlation, but the study size was too small to definitively change prevailing opinions as to whether the proclivity can be inherited. If so, though, that would lend a bit of support to the disease theory.
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Post by magentaflame »

I've only ever seen studies where there's a correlation between the nature and nurture aspects. And it wasn't conclusive. Tea totallers give birth to addicts as well. In fact I know some addicted to tea and coffee.
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Post by Clodhopper »

There are certainly people who are more prone to addiction than others. I'm one and have suffered for it. Fought alcohol to a draw and am currently failing to stop smoking. Speed was another addiction - and why I stopped biking (not the other sort of speed...;)). I think being a bit of an obsessive type plays into it, as well. These days I am very careful. Totally addicted to tea though. :)

Reasons for it I think are a mix of nature and nurture: You need to have tendencies (which may in themselves be good things or at least neutral traits) that get pushed in bad directions by your environment especially in childhood. Once the pattern has been set in adulthood, that's it for life I think. You can't cure, you can only control.
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Post by FourPart »

Addiction to cigarettes is much worse than most people even realise. The reality is that it's not even the nicotine that most smokers are addicted to, but the other chemicals that are added to the cigarettes. This is no accident. It's in the substances that are claimed to be there in order to keep the cigarettes alight. After all, if you take a hand rolled one, if you don't keep puffing on it, it will go out. This is because there is only the tobacco to keep it going. The tailor made ones, however, have a far more deadly cocktail of chemicals, and it is these chamicals which are known to be highly addictive as well as even more carcinogenic that tobacco.

I used to be a smoker, but of pipe & hand rolled cigarettes. However, I quit about 25 - 30 years ago. I didn't have any problems in quitting. I just said one day, that's it - no more, and that's all there was to it. You will also find that the majority of those who have difficulty in giving up are using tailor made ones. In fact the best way to quit, if you are not up to total cold turkey is to switch first to hand rolled, and then to quit.

Furthermore, never say that you're "trying to quit". I so doing you are giving yourself a back door to get back into it. You must decide to quit outright.
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Post by Bruv »

I was a long term smoker, first tailor made then for economy hand rolled. I had a brief period with a pipe, but I was a very wet smoker (some would say I'm a drip) another time I was on cigars, only small ones.

I disagree, hand rolled was my choice even when I could afford tailor made, the satisfaction was such that I would need a roll up after a proper cigarette.

A lot of nicotine addiction is habit, a reward after a period of work, at breaks, after meals etc.

The key to giving up is the real personal desire to quit, outside pressure doesn't work. I gave up several times, only to reward my good behaviour with a smoke at the end of my day.

A conversation with my doctor finally gave me the zeal to make my serial quiting a permanent one.

I will confess to enjoying a roll up recently at my birthday do.
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

The only thing I miss about having given up is the occasional bit of home grown.
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Post by magentaflame »

Addiction .... (I've been looking into it because ...Well how many times now have I tried to give up?) There is a school of thought that there is no such thing as addiction. It's actually a personality trait. People who tend to take up mindboggling meanless stuff like smoking would have once been the explorers of the world, the carers the hunters, inventors...they were the unstoppable one eyed doers of their tribes.... they did "STUFF". They need to be free to do their stuff as well. Apparently those with the "doing" trait will fill a void with a mundane thing (whatever society has going) to fill a frustration....a frustration with not being able to do what they want when they want to.

The trick to kick one habit is to replace it with another, to fill that frustration. You all hear things like "it relaxes me" , "it's a reward", " it's something to do with my hands". These aren't excuses. These are true and real emotions and thought processes.

To cure yourself? the next time you find yourself doing something that interests you and has your mind so engaged you find you smoke less KEEP DOING IT.

OR

take off and do what you want, when you want, where ever you want. < --------- because that's what your personality is geared toward. Unfortunetly in the times we live in the barstards just wont let us do it.

So the next time someone who is a gym junkie or runs everyday says they are heaps more healthier than yourself.......technically in "body" it's true. But in their head? not so much, because they are performing the same ritual as yourself.

and fourpart is correct. It's the chemicals. Even the cigarette companies figured all this out in the early seventies and fixed that little problem of people realising they could do other stuff rather than smoke. they already had those frustrated due to their personality...... but what about all the rest?
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