Scotland's political map redrawn

[Clodhopper]

It seems the Conservatives are on the rise (Ruth Davidson impressed me, I have to say, on the little I've seen of her) as the main Unionist Party, getting support from the pro UK Scots and at the same time the SNP are losing their brexiters to them.

General election 2017: Scotland's split exposes a new UK political divide - BBC News

It'll be interesting to see how this works out. Are we going to end with a nationalist west of Scotland against a unionist east, or is it more patchwork?

[Clodhopper]

Thinking about it a little more, is regionalism the future?

If we end with West against East in Scotland (which is after all, traditional), we already have a North South divide in England. Should we consider breaking down into the ancient historical kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria? Kernow too? The Scots to Scotia and what? Pictland? The Welsh could go to Gwynedd and Dyfed and would likely love to. We would preserve and enhance our own regional identities, we'd keep a free trade area, each Kingdom could set it's own social policy and international relations. If we wanted to maintain a serious international presence we'd have to co-operate closely to do it and we'd be much less likely to be involved in foreign wars.

Since we're at a point where we really can seriously redraw the political map of the UK, should we?

[gmc]

What gets reported in the mainstream media doesn't necessarily reflect what is being said or done in scotland. The most obvious nonsense is that nicola sturgeon has not actually called for a referendum now rather but 2018-19 when the deal for brexit is actually known if you watch the bbc or read the daily mail you wouild think she wanted vone now and big bad theresa had slapped her down. You never get to see everything she says while ruth davidson gets reported in detail. The tories did well at the expense of labour, the snp gained seats at the local elections and also took control of more councils a fact that gets reported as the tories doing well in scotland. Labour are doing deals with the tories on councils where the snp are the largest party but not large enough to have overall control in order to keep the snp out oerty politics over what is best for the community - they're not doing themselves any favours.

The tory election leaflets consist of vote for us and stop the snp. The snp after the no vote had in their manifesto the option to push for another referendum if there was a material change the result of the 2015 election took everybody by surprise with labour and tory all but wiped out. I don't know what will happen at the next election they might lose a few seats but will probably remain the third largest party in westminster. The prospect of the tories winining the election and a hard brexit is a nightmare anyone with half a brain would object to.

Incidentally it's much the same with jeremu coprbyn what he actuall says and what is reported are not one and the same.

If we end with West against East in Scotland (which is after all, traditional), we already have a North South divide in England. Should we consider breaking down into the ancient historical kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria? Kernow too? The Scots to Scotia and what? Pictland? The Welsh could go to Gwynedd and Dyfed and would likely love to. We would preserve and enhance our own regional identities, we'd keep a free trade area, each Kingdom could set it's own social policy and international relations. If we wanted to maintain a serious international presence we'd have to co-operate closely to do it and we'd be much less likely to be involved in foreign wars.


Also scotland is not simply a region of england any more than wales or ireland is.

[Clodhopper]

Didn't say it was. I was saying perhaps break down all of them into regions, except possibly Ireland where the situation is different. Ruth Davidson I only saw during the brexit debate, I don't read the Mail and didn't get the impression you describe from the BBC. I will however be interested to see how the election goes in Scotland in the light of the suggestion of the article. The tory leaflets you mention do fit the pattern described.

If I lived in Scotland, I'd have voted for the Union in the last referendum and would be voting to leave in the next one to retain membership of the EU given the EU said it would be happy with that a few months back. I think it offers better long term future for Scotland.

[gmc]

Nicola Sturgean is being interviewed by andrew neil on bbc1 this evening as part of a series of interviews with all the leaders - check it out it's only half an hour. I'm not a great fan of the snp but at least post independence we can hold them to account it's not likely they will dominate the scottish government the way they do now. I agree with you independence post brexit and scotland would do very well indeed the rest of the UK is in big trouble.

One of my neighbours is anti snp and was criticising her debating style of talking over everybody, I asked him when he had seen her do that and he's never seen her in dabater or during first ministers question time ( not something I watch very often as I have an oiverwhelming urge to change channels) in the scottish parliament the impression is coming from the mainstream media. I was watching the wright stuff when one of the panel was making fun of her flapping her arms while speaking there is a liot of personal abuse being levelled at her by the unionists a sure sign they have no counter arguments.

[Clodhopper]

Ah damn. Didn't read your post til just now.

For me the snp have to get past the n bit. Nationalists are always very close to comparing their superiority with everyone else's inferiority, very sure of their exceptionalism. In the situations that are likely to evolve post brexit maybe a crude tribalism is the best attitude. Being part of the EU made us all part of a much wider community and our ancient carks and slights stood out less in the overall mix. Now? All our little local grievances become the whole world. Brexit is a triumph for nationalism. Now we have cut ourselves off from the European community and its values of multiculturalism and tolerance. It may not be what many brexiters intended, but they've done it. We are back to being four nations plus special cases in a small group of islands and we are in the process of committing economic suicide. Poverty makes all issues worse, and local resentments will be exacerbated when one area seems to get something where others don't: today's postcode lotteries multiplied and on steroids. If we take into account hatreds that have endured a thousand years, poison our political debate today and show no signs of disappearing where would we draw the geographical lines to minimise resentment of the privileged others and create a sense of local ownership?

If brexit doesn't go well all the regions in these islands are going to be fighting for the dwindling money like cats in a sack. We have forgotten that peace is first and foremost a by-product of a full belly. If London and the South East are seen to be less badly affected than other areas then frankly anything could happen.

We'll have to see how the negotiations proceed. Given the apparent totally unrealistic appreciation from brexiters of how brexit is viewed by France and Germany in particular (proof that Albion is indeed Perfidious) I'm not optimistic. If we are flung out on WTO rules then we have to borrow like heck to cover the time until we have deals in place. We are already one of the most heavily indebted countries in the world per capita and only get away with it because we can pay. If our ability to pay is hit our credit dries up.

The best bet is probably to vote Corbyn and hope he renationalises everything. I've had some anecdotal evidence from a fellow Lib Dem volunteer that there's a good vibe on the doorstep and evidence of tactical voting from Labour supporters in the local wards but it does feel we're going to struggle to hold the constituency as a whole. Maybe the anti-May tide will help us.

The Corbyn resurgence is perhaps the most positive thing to come out of the whole damn mess. If you believe, as I do, that brexit rapidly became a plan to make the very rich a lot richer at the expense of the rest of us (not a conspiracy so much as the opportunity arising and people like Murdoch, Banks, the Barclay brothers and the alt right in the US putting their money and resources at the brexit camp's disposal) then Corbyn is without doubt the antidote, for what he's worth. (I would also like to be more sure Putin didn't have something to do with it, as well. Brexit, I mean, not Corbyn)

A break up looks a ridiculous idea at this moment I know, but I think the stresses of brexit will exacerbate existing stresses and resentments. There's going to be a lot of anger about unfulfilled promises and a lot of people looking for scapegoats. I can see the North of England in particular feeling they have nothing to lose and there is already a Wessex Regionalist Party with an aim of getting powers similar to those currently held by Scotland within the Union. Apparently it's been around since the 1970s. If people start to feel that their area isn't getting a fair deal then these parties start to look more attractive, especially if they get a charismatic leader like, say, Farage. These are the sorts of forces we have given power to by the brexit vote.

If there was a referendum in London about leaving the UK and staying in the EU I'd vote EU. The best I can see for the UK is a huge increase in national debt. I dunno what brexiters are going to do when they realise what they've done to their children and grandchildren. Deny it, I'd guess. Blame everyone else.

If we get a deal which allows us to operate at say 95% of the money we currently make from the EU and business continues pretty much as normal - no additional checks or paperwork - then it will feel no worse than a normal recession: there will be bankruptcies, job losses, more cuts but nothing we haven't seen before in say the 1980s, followed by a recovery if we can get good trade deals. However the chances of that seem slight at present. We want to negotiate many issues concurrently, they want to settle the cash costs, EU members' Rights and Ireland first (the so called divorce terms). We will have a chance to see how things are likely to go depending on how this issue goes: If we get our way then it looks as if we will get a pretty good deal because it will indicate a very co-operative attitude from the EU, focussing on minimising the economic fallout above all other issues. Heck, if just get to the point of extending the 2 years while further negotiations take place it will be an achievement!

However if we end up negotiating the divorce terms first then it will show that the EU has the power to impose its agenda, looks intent on imposing its terms and we either take them or leave them. There will be an increasing sense of crisis if not outright panic as the deadline approaches and we will either capitulate and accept the terms on offer which are likely to be considerably better than WTO terms and Dover to London Lorry tailbacks, or refuse them and go to WTO rules with a huge wave of bankruptcies as manufacturers and suppliers of services find they are suddenly outpriced by competitors or just cut off by paperwork and/or EU regulations. We already know EU companies that source components or products from the UK are looking for alternative suppliers, just in case. If that happens we really are up the proverbial creek and not only are we short a paddle, but we've holed the canoe and refuse to even admit it as we sink. That's when the nightmare scenarios start to unfold, and the breakup of the UK state and even its member nations, becomes a realistic possibility.

edit: Just had a chat with a friend who pointed out I underestimate the intense dislike many English feel for the SNP as the perceived face of the "No friends south of the Border" Scots. Many here will see a win for Scots independence as a win for hatred of the English, just as many Europeans see the UK leaving the EU as a win for anti-EU hatred. I do mean hatred too: that's how it is seen.

[gmc]

edit: Just had a chat with a friend who pointed out I underestimate the intense dislike many English feel for the SNP as the perceived face of the "No friends south of the Border" Scots. Many here will see a win for Scots independence as a win for hatred of the English, just as many Europeans see the UK leaving the EU as a win for anti-EU hatred. I do mean hatred too: that's how it is seen.


That's a perception encouraged by the likes of the daily mail. Some of the comments you see would suggest we are little better than ground dwelling knuckle dragging half wits. You do find a few who blame the english they tend to be a minority. I did shut up one tory critic who was making fun of our ability to run our own economy by taking out an english £20 note that happens to feature a famous scottish economist.

For me the snp have to get past the n bit. Nationalists are always very close to comparing their superiority with everyone else's inferiority, very sure of their exceptionalism. In the situations that are likely to evolve post brexit maybe a crude tribalism is the best attitude. Being part of the EU made us all part of a much wider community and our ancient carks and slights stood out less in the overall mix. Now? All our little local grievances become the whole world. Brexit is a triumph for nationalism.


Bit ironic since the scots nats want to stay part of a larger community and not isolate ourselves in a fit of blind xenophobic flag waving stupidity convinced that the world needs us and our products as proposed by ukip harking back to an empire and status as a world power we no longer have, once we were an industrial powerhouse that was destroyed by our own governments - remember thatcher and britain can do best as a service economy and there is no such thing as community? To paraphrase jummy reid you can't build an economy based on banking and working in shops. We don't have a capiltailst economy it gets more and more fascist every day. What corbyn is proposing is more like liberal capitalism capitalist than anything the tories are coming out with.

Brexit is a triumph of bigotry and misinformation not nationalism.

[Clodhopper]

gmc;1509773 wrote: That's a perception encouraged by the likes of the daily mail. Some of the comments you see would suggest we are little better than ground dwelling knuckle dragging half wits. You do find a few who blame the english they tend to be a minority. I did shut up one tory critic who was making fun of our ability to run our own economy by taking out an english £20 note that happens to feature a famous scottish economist.



Bit ironic since the scots nats want to stay part of a larger community and not isolate ourselves in a fit of blind xenophobic flag waving stupidity convinced that the world needs us and our products as proposed by ukip harking back to an empire and status as a world power we no longer have, once we were an industrial powerhouse that was destroyed by our own governments - remember thatcher and britain can do best as a service economy and there is no such thing as community? To paraphrase jummy reid you can't build an economy based on banking and working in shops. We don't have a capiltailst economy it gets more and more fascist every day. What corbyn is proposing is more like liberal capitalism capitalist than anything the tories are coming out with.

Brexit is a triumph of bigotry and misinformation not nationalism.


SOME scots nats want to remain part of a wider community. What made me post the thread was the story about the Scots brexiters leaving the snp for the tories on account of the wider community they want nothing to do with. The extent of this is something we should get an indication of with the election. I assume there are also brexiter unionist Scots who are very happy with the status quo!

Nationalism is a death dealing curse. It is bigotry given physical reality in Conquistadors and Redcoats and the SS. It is a justification of our crudest animal impulses of the lowest rather than the highest order. If Humanism is an appreciation and acceptance of the shared difficulties of existence wherever we are from, Nationalism is an expression of its exclusion and indifference and arrogance.

[gmc]

Nationalism is a death dealing curse. It is bigotry given physical reality in Conquistadors and Redcoats and the SS. It is a justification of our crudest animal impulses of the lowest rather than the highest order. If Humanism is an appreciation and acceptance of the shared difficulties of existence wherever we are from, Nationalism is an expression of its exclusion and indifference and arrogance.


Nationalism takes many forms in the case of ukip it is xenophobic, racist and harks back to a glorious past that is well past. nationalism can also be pride in what your nation has and can accomplish a kind of national consciousness that is self confident and able to take it's place in the world without needing the blind patriotism and xenophobia we see from ukip and now the tories as they think that is the way to get support. The aggression in scotland comes mainly from the unionist side - not that the snp supporters are saints by any means. After the referendum it was the orange lodge and unionist supporters that attacked the yes supporters in george square in glasgow ending what had bewen a notably civilised campaign burning the scottish saltire and attacking women and children that is the face of british nationalism and unionism in scotland.

Most brexit supporters are incapable of rational and peaceful debate that's why farage and nuttall just try and talk over everyone in debate. I watched may and corbyn, it was again brought up that most immigration to this country is from outside the eu the point goes right past them.

[Clodhopper]

Every single human alive can be proud of the achievements of their ancestors as a whole. But nationalism is by its definition a minority declaring superiority over a majority. pride in what your nation has and can accomplish a kind of national consciousness could be great description of the feeling your ancestors and mine had over the period they helped established an Empire with not just a rapacious looting fervour but a sense that they were bringing civilisation to the savage. What your modern nationalism will do with its sense of superiority is yet to be seen.

[gmc]

Clodhopper;1509779 wrote: Every single human alive can be proud of the achievements of their ancestors as a whole. But nationalism is by its definition a minority declaring superiority over a majority. could be great description of the feeling your ancestors and mine had over the period they helped established an Empire with not just a rapacious looting fervour but a sense that they were bringing civilisation to the savage. What your modern nationalism will do with its sense of superiority is yet to be seen.


You confuse I think modern nationalism with the racist nationalism of the nazis which was nationalism of an extreme kind as was the empire building flag waving patriotism all european nations were party to in the past that died it's death on the poppy fields of flanders and of ww2.

Nationalism is not by definition a minority declaring superiority over a minority that is only one aspect of a complex issue.

[Clodhopper]

Nationalism was going strong in Serbia Croatia and Monte***** quite recently. The rise of the far right across Europe and the US has been dramatic in recent years and the far right and nationalism are hand and glove.

I agree part of the issue here is that we aren't quite talking about the same thing. I differentiate between nationalism and patriotism with the latter covering supporting sports teams and for example an appreciation of what has been contributed to the Arts and Sciences. It's an entirely positive thing in that we support our boys and girls when they compete and laud achievements, but we don't (or shouldn't) demean or belittle the opposition. If we do, we are sliding from patriotism into nationalism. Not a particularly vicious form, I grant you, but it does illustrate the difference. chuckle. I have to admit I don't always succeed in living up to this standard, but I do try.

Nationalism to me is inherently racist and I don't think it ever entirely died. As you said, UKIP show worrying signs of it. I know from living there that Scots nationalism had an anti English racist component 30 years ago and nothing I've heard since has said it has gone away. The SNP has in recent years I've noticed made some efforts to curb this but well, it seemed rather half-hearted and we both know it's going to take some doing. Especially now so many of the English have noticed and are reacting, unfortunately, exactly as you'd expect. I have wondered if Salmond actually intended this as a way of encouraging the two nations to split but with hindsight I doubt it - it was just a bit of clumsiness from a politician moving onto a larger stage than before. He's shown himself to be a big enough thinker (though I always found him offputting as a politician) to know that hostility between us is in neither of our interests.

Anti-nationalism is a big part of why I am so much in favour of the EU. It is at its core it seems to me, an anti-nationalist bastion. By leaving it we made a nationalist statement - the core of brexit was not pro-UK it seems to me, it was anti-EU. There has never been an admitted destination for brexit other than out. Nothing about where to and how we get there: During the referendum it was all how easy it would be. Now it's how the pain of the transition period will be worth it. But no clue about for what. Immigration some say; others flatly deny it. Sovereignty, said some. Hmm. Yes, every day I woke up and thought how oppressed I was that it was the European Court of Justice that was the final court of appeal. Ridiculous.

[gmc]

Clodhopper;1509784 wrote: Nationalism was going strong in Serbia Croatia and Monte***** quite recently. The rise of the far right across Europe and the US has been dramatic in recent years and the far right and nationalism are hand and glove.

I agree part of the issue here is that we aren't quite talking about the same thing. I differentiate between nationalism and patriotism with the latter covering supporting sports teams and for example an appreciation of what has been contributed to the Arts and Sciences. It's an entirely positive thing in that we support our boys and girls when they compete and laud achievements, but we don't (or shouldn't) demean or belittle the opposition. If we do, we are sliding from patriotism into nationalism. Not a particularly vicious form, I grant you, but it does illustrate the difference. chuckle. I have to admit I don't always succeed in living up to this standard, but I do try.

Nationalism to me is inherently racist and I don't think it ever entirely died. As you said, UKIP show worrying signs of it. I know from living there that Scots nationalism had an anti English racist component 30 years ago and nothing I've heard since has said it has gone away. The SNP has in recent years I've noticed made some efforts to curb this but well, it seemed rather half-hearted and we both know it's going to take some doing. Especially now so many of the English have noticed and are reacting, unfortunately, exactly as you'd expect. I have wondered if Salmond actually intended this as a way of encouraging the two nations to split but with hindsight I doubt it - it was just a bit of clumsiness from a politician moving onto a larger stage than before. He's shown himself to be a big enough thinker (though I always found him offputting as a politician) to know that hostility between us is in neither of our interests.

Anti-nationalism is a big part of why I am so much in favour of the EU. It is at its core it seems to me, an anti-nationalist bastion. By leaving it we made a nationalist statement - the core of brexit was not pro-UK it seems to me, it was anti-EU. There has never been an admitted destination for brexit other than out. Nothing about where to and how we get there: During the referendum it was all how easy it would be. Now it's how the pain of the transition period will be worth it. But no clue about for what. Immigration some say; others flatly deny it. Sovereignty, said some. Hmm. Yes, every day I woke up and thought how oppressed I was that it was the European Court of Justice that was the final court of appeal. Ridiculous.


Like I said I thinbk it is more complex than that I just don't see things the same way you do.

Also from my perpective I am seeing the likes of the dailymail and ukip stirring up english nationalism often in the form of quite nasty anti-scottish and irish rhetoric. Actually and completely irrelevant engels despised the irish as well no doubt because he was living in engkland at the time.