Muhammad Ali, RIP

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Post by spot »

The Catholic Church was permanently changed by the protest of Martin Luther, the Soviet Union by the moral protest of Alexander Solzhenitsyn. For the USA, at the time and in the circumstance, that duty of righteous refusal to condone or support despite the personal consequence fell to Muhammad Ali. He stood his ground against the system and won worldwide admiration.

He also boxed.

He was a great man.

The man who changed his sport and his country

In Ali’s Voice From the Past, a Stand for the Ages
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Post by Snowfire »

Arguably the greatest sportsman in modern times. Everybody knew him, recognised him, loved or hated him. You couldn't ignore him or forget him.

There had been discussions to award him some honourary knighthood. They talked about it far to long.
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One of my all time heroes, a sad day.
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Post by G#Gill »

An internationally admired sportsman and benefactor. Mohammad Ali. You will be missed all over the world. A man larger than life and with a huge ego to match his supreme ability. Clever, humourous, wonderful sportsman. I doubt that there will be another like you Ali. R.I.P. big man, pain free at last.
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I've so far failed to find any comment by Donald Trump relating to the death of America's Most Distinguished Muslim - a title now inherited by President Obama, one assumes.
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1496565 wrote: The Catholic Church was permanently changed by the protest of Martin Luther, the Soviet Union by the moral protest of Alexander Solzhenitsyn. For the USA, at the time and in the circumstance, that duty of righteous refusal to condone or support despite the personal consequence fell to Muhammad Ali. He stood his ground against the system and won worldwide admiration.

He also boxed.

He was a great man.

The man who changed his sport and his country

In Ali’s Voice From the Past, a Stand for the Ages


He was a great boxer and decent man.

RIP
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Post by Bruv »

spot;1496575 wrote: I've so far failed to find any comment by Donald Trump relating to the death of America's Most Distinguished Muslim - a title now inherited by President Obama, one assumes.


You should have stuck with Twitter......Muhammad Ali is dead at 74! A truly great champion and a wonderful guy. He will be missed by all!
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

"No Vietnamese ever called me (n-word)"---The Greatest
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Post by spot »

Bruv;1496581 wrote: You should have stuck with Twitter......


Ah.

Perhaps Donald didn't know.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

spot;1496586 wrote: Ah.

Perhaps Donald didn't know.


Didn't know what?
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Post by spot »

That Muhammad Ali was America's Most Distinguished Muslim.
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Post by Bruv »

"I am a Muslim and there is nothing Islamic about killing innocent people in Paris, San Bernardino, or anywhere else in the world. True Muslims know that the ruthless violence of so called Islamic jihadists goes against the very tenets of our religion.

We as Muslims have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda. They have alienated many from learning about Islam. True Muslims know or should know that it goes against our religion to try and force Islam on anybody.

Speaking as someone who has never been accused of political correctness, I believe that our political leaders should use their position to bring understanding about the religion of Islam and clarify that these misguided murderers have perverted people's views on what Islam really is"

From a man with an IQ of 78 ?
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496565 wrote: 1. The Catholic Church was permanently changed by the protest of Martin Luther, the Soviet Union by the moral protest of Alexander Solzhenitsyn. For the USA, at the time and in the circumstance, that duty of righteous refusal to condone or support despite the personal consequence fell to Muhammad Ali. He stood his ground against the system and won worldwide admiration.

2. I've so far failed to find any comment by Donald Trump relating to the death of America's Most Distinguished Muslim - a title now inherited by President Obama, one assumes.


1. CHRISTIANITY was changed by Luther, the RCC pretty much remained, and still remains, as always apart from clerical abuses of Luther's time such as the sale of indulgences. That different abuses have occurred more recently is not in question.

2. Why would such a title be assigned to the president? Do you mean by Trump, or in general?

My own recollection of Clay, before he became Ali, was that I asserted that if he survived the first few rounds of the first Liston fight he would very likely win the bout, everybody told me I was crazy and offered to bet, I won a lot of dough that night!
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Post by spot »

1. We agree the Catholic Church was permanently changed by the protest of Martin Luther, then. You can't say "apart from" and not be in agreement with the statement.

2. If you've never seen President Obama referred to as a Muslim, you've been living a very solitary life.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496630 wrote: 1. We agree the Catholic Church was permanently changed by the protest of Martin Luther, then. You can't say "apart from" and not be in agreement with the statement.

2. If you've never seen President Obama referred to as a Muslim, you've been living a very solitary life.1. No, we don't agree on that at all, maybe you'd better read it again. The RCC's primary claim remains that it can be traced back to the apostles without a break. That various scandals have occurred along the way is, as I said, not in dispute.

2. I've never heard him so referenced except by morons, bigots and political extremists.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mark Aspam;1496637 wrote: 1. No, we don't agree on that at all, maybe you'd better read it again. The RCC's primary claim remains that it can be traced back to the apostles without a break. That various scandals have occurred along the way is, as I said, not in dispute.

2. I've never heard him so referenced except by morons, bigots and political extremists.


That's quite often then :-)
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Post by Mark Aspam »

Bryn Mawr;1496638 wrote: That's quite often then :-)Not so much around here, and I was certainly not referring to spot.

As far as I know, the prez is a lifelong Protestant Christian. I am a lifelong Catholic, my father was a Congregationalist, a denom for which I have great respect, but certainly not a member based on my parentage.
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Post by spot »

We had one "apart from" and one "except by", which actually means two agreements.

I didn't say the church's "primary claim" had changed, I said the church changed permanently. So it did. Look at your "apart from" list to see how it changed permanently.

Your answer to "have you heard him so referenced" is "yes, by morons, bigots and political extremists". It isn't no I haven't. You have. By morons, bigots and political extremists.

Finding exceptions does not reverse a fact unless the fact claims to be absolute and exceptionless.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496653 wrote: I said the church changed permanently. So it did. How did it change permanently as a result of Luther leaving it, except that it had then ridded itself of one sleazy, nun-chasing priest? Please be specific. I think you are just playing with words here. Also, it is completely off the subject of the thread.

Ali is to be admired for his opposition to the Vietnam debacle. So are MILLIONS of Americans who were not successful sports figures.
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Mark Aspam;1496657 wrote: How did it change permanently as a result of Luther leaving it, except that it had then ridded itself of one sleazy, nun-chasing priest? Please be specific.You said it yourself, the Catholic Church permanently stopped selling indulgences.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496658 wrote: You said it yourself, the Catholic Church permanently stopped selling indulgences.OK - can't argue with that. But that had nothing to do with doctrine. Luther changed doctrine to his own personal liking. He even tried, unsuccessfully, to have certain books removed from the Bible because they didn't fit his own perverse view of what Christianity should be like.

The connection with Ali seems to me rather vague.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mark Aspam;1496657 wrote: How did it change permanently as a result of Luther leaving it, except that it had then ridded itself of one sleazy, nun-chasing priest? Please be specific. I think you are just playing with words here. Also, it is completely off the subject of the thread.

Ali is to be admired for his opposition to the Vietnam debacle. So are MILLIONS of Americans who were not successful sports figures.


Describing Luther as a sleazy nun-chasing priest is a bit rich given the behaviour of the clergy of the time.

Remember, the Borgia popes had only left the throne of St Peter fourteen years before Luther posted his Ninety Five Tracts.
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Mark Aspam;1496659 wrote: The connection with Ali seems to me rather vague.It's there in the opening post - that Ali took on the "duty of righteous refusal to condone or support despite the personal consequence", just like Martin Luther did.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496661 wrote: It's there in the opening post - that Ali took on the "duty of righteous refusal to condone or support despite the personal consequence", just like Martin Luther did.Talk about apples and oranges! His righteous refusal was shared by millions of Americans. I can't name one of them who started his/her own religion.

Regarding Bryn's comment, I think I noted in an earlier, unrelated thread that my term paper in (Catholic) high school religion class was on Rodrigo Borgia (Alexander VI), possibly the worst pope of all time. Catholics believe that the fact that the Church survived those times is highly significant. Catholicism traces its heritage directly from the apostles without a break, bad popes notwithstanding. Protestantism traces to malcontents who decided to start their own religion. Obviously, both systems have been popular for centuries, God bless them.
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Post by spot »

Joseph Smith, rather infamously.

Either you recognize Protestants as Christians or you don't, just like you recognize the Orthodox Church as Christian or you don't. If they're Christians then Martin Luther didn't start his own religion. You could run your response past the current Pope before deciding whether you're right or not. I believe you'll find he says we're Christian too, though not at present in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

On a minor point of information, Anglicans and Methodists both state as a matter of doctrine that they're members of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church, within which they include the Roman Catholic Church as a distinct communion within Christianity - which is more than they allow for the followers of Joseph Smith, who aren't, Mormons being heathen apostate heretics destined to the eternal damnation of hellfire.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496664 wrote: On a minor point of information, Anglicans and Methodists both state as a matter of doctrine that they're members of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church, within which they include the Roman Catholic Church as a distinct communion within Christianity...I was aware of that regarding the Anglicans but not re the Methodists. The Methodists also have great picnics.
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Post by LarsMac »

Mark Aspam;1496665 wrote: I was aware of that regarding the Anglicans but not re the Methodists. The Methodists also have great picnics.


presbyterians, as well.

The term "Catholic" is used in its original meaning of universal in extent.
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Post by Bruv »

Thought Ali was a Muslim.......but I am slow.
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Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1496594 wrote: "I am a Muslim and there is nothing Islamic about killing innocent people in Paris, San Bernardino, or anywhere else in the world. True Muslims know that the ruthless violence of so called Islamic jihadists goes against the very tenets of our religion.

We as Muslims have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda. They have alienated many from learning about Islam. True Muslims know or should know that it goes against our religion to try and force Islam on anybody.

Speaking as someone who has never been accused of political correctness, I believe that our political leaders should use their position to bring understanding about the religion of Islam and clarify that these misguided murderers have perverted people's views on what Islam really is"

From a man with an IQ of 78 ?


Where did you get that?
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Post by Mark Aspam »

LarsMac;1496670 wrote: Where did you get that?I was wondering that also. Bruv, what is your source? And who is being quoted?
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Post by LarsMac »

Mark Aspam;1496672 wrote: I was wondering that also. Bruv, what is your source? And who is being quoted?


That was quoted from Muhammed Ali, replying to The Donald's comments about banning Muslims from entering the US.
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Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1496670 wrote: Where did you get that?


Mark Aspam;1496672 wrote: I was wondering that also. Bruv, what is your source? And who is being quoted?


It is attributed to Ali, how about NBC..... Aljazeera......Vox ?
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Post by Mark Aspam »

Bruv;1496676 wrote: It is attributed to Ali, how about NBC..... Aljazeera......Vox ?Well, OK, it doesn't sound much like his style. Is it possible that someone else wrote it and he approved it?

Also, what is the 78 IQ - that is borderline moron range. Ali may not have been a rocket scientist, but 78 sounds kinda low. Or is that referring to Trump?
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Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1496676 wrote: It is attributed to Ali, how about NBC..... Aljazeera......Vox ?


Well, I know where the quote came from.

I am specifically referring to the last line, which I bolded, referring to the "IQ of 78"
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Mark Aspam;1496681 wrote: Also, what is the 78 IQ - that is borderline moron range. Ali may not have been a rocket scientist, but 78 sounds kinda low. Or is that referring to Trump?


There's background at https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-M ... n-IQ-of-78
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Post by Bruv »

Spot has it, he is far quicker than me.

I have seen this before and the various arguments run along the lines that IQ tests are unreliable, to they are biased against blacks. In this example of Ali's IQ it may have been that he 'threw it' or that although he was bright he wasn't adept at IQ type tests.
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Mark Aspam;1496662 wrote: Talk about apples and oranges! His righteous refusal was shared by millions of Americans. I can't name one of them who started his/her own religion.

Regarding Bryn's comment, I think I noted in an earlier, unrelated thread that my term paper in (Catholic) high school religion class was on Rodrigo Borgia (Alexander VI), possibly the worst pope of all time. Catholics believe that the fact that the Church survived those times is highly significant. Catholicism traces its heritage directly from the apostles without a break, bad popes notwithstanding. Protestantism traces to malcontents who decided to start their own religion. Obviously, both systems have been popular for centuries, God bless them.


And yet, at a time when we had "possibly the worst pope of all time" the man who called for a discussion on reigning in the worst excesses of the Church was a "sleazy, nun-chasing priest"?
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Post by Mark Aspam »

Bryn Mawr;1496701 wrote: And yet, at a time when we had "possibly the worst pope of all time" the man who called for a discussion on reigning in the worst excesses of the Church was a "sleazy, nun-chasing priest"?Exactly! I think you hit the nail with your head here.

Both denoms have their historical skeletons. Catholics have the Borgias, Lutherans have Luther.

I lived in Germany for eight years. Nearly everybody was either a Catholic or a Lutheran. We all got along just fine. By the way, I previously had no idea that Lutherans had nuns. Very common in Germany and perhaps elsewhere in Europe. Virtually unknown in the USA - certainly unknown to me.
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The underlying contention about Luther being a sleazy nun-chasing priest is that the Roman Catholic church, for no biblical or doctrinal reason but as a matter of obedience to Church Law, forbade priests to marry and therefore demanded they be celibate. Luther said the Church Law, having no biblical or doctrinal reason, was unnecessary and so he married a nun, Katharina von Bora. The "sleazy" bit is just bias, the nun he chased was a single nun not nuns in general. I don't think anyone has any reason to think Martin Luther ever had carnal knowledge outside the bonds of matrimony.

The Roman Catholic church claimed at the time that being a priest annulled his marriage so he was living in sin, hence "sleazy". You pay your money and you take your choice.

I might add that the Roman Catholic Church does, in fact, now have priests who are married and finds no fault in them. They're a small sub-group of priests but it shows there is not now, and consequently never has been, any biblical or doctrinal exclusion to the principle. Just a bureaucratic choice within the Church, of a law which didn't exist before (at a guess without looking it up) 900 AD. I think we'd all agree enforced obedience to celibacy among the clergy has had dreadful consequences since.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mark Aspam;1496706 wrote: Exactly! I think you hit the nail with your head here.

Both denoms have their historical skeletons. Catholics have the Borgias, Lutherans have Luther.

I lived in Germany for eight years. Nearly everybody was either a Catholic or a Lutheran. We all got along just fine. By the way, I previously had no idea that Lutherans had nuns. Very common in Germany and perhaps elsewhere in Europe. Virtually unknown in the USA - certainly unknown to me.


It's your description, I was asking you to justify the second in light of the first.

To me it is just mud slinging.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

Bryn Mawr;1496710 wrote: It's your description, I was asking you to justify the second in light of the first.

To me it is just mud slinging.Well, attempting to reply to both previous posts, I am not an expert on Church history, but to my knowledge, the various Eastern rites of Roman Catholicism have always admitted married men to the priesthood, although to my knowledge those rites do NOT allow priests to marry after ordination. So the current lessening of the requirements in the Western rite is hardly unique. It's too bad that it didn't happen much earlier.

According to what I have read from Catholic and secular sources, it seems to me that Luther's motivations were mainly concerned with situations other than priestly celibacy, notably the TEMPORAL - not spiritual - corruption already discussed here.

With regard to the 'sleazy' characterization, I refer you to Luther's writings, some of which are extremely vulgar, almost bordering on pornography. So I suppose that the mud is slung in both directions.

But as we all know, all this is WAY WAY off the subject of the thread.

P.S. Didn't think to mention this because it is so obvious, but as far as I know any RC priest or nun who wishes to marry can leave their religious vocation behind and do so with Church approval. They still remain Catholics in good standing, assuming that they wish to be. I assume that that would have pertained to Luther and Ms. vanBora. He just 'wanted it both ways' I guess.
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There is no "Eastern Rite of Roman Catholicism", there's Roman Catholicism and then there's the Orthodox Church. The two have refused to recognize the validity of the other's Mass for well over a thousand years. I've no idea who the Copts are in communion with but there's precious few of them still alive and practicing.

By all means refer me to a specific book and a quote - "Luther's Writings" occupy several yards on the library shelf and I can't find your reference from so vague a description.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496714 wrote: There is no "Eastern Rite of Roman Catholicism", there's Roman Catholicism and then there's the Orthodox Church. And your source for that is what?

There is no SINGULAR Eastern rite, there are various Eastern rites, most of them quite ancient, of which the Byzantine aka Melkite is, to my knowledge, the most prominent.

These are known as "Uniate" rites, that is, in union with Rome, to distinguish them from the various Eastern schismatic rites to which you referred.

You could look it up.
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Post by spot »

If they're Uniate, as opposed to Orthodox, they're overwhelmingly outnumbered. Anyone discussing Eastern Christianity is going to be talking about the Orthodox church which is most definitely not in communion with Rome, and to highlight these Uniate minnows, in a futile attempt to deny the most fundamental split Christianity ever faced, is pretty daft. Calling the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches "Eastern schismatic rites" is beyond belief. Melkite adherents number approximately 1.6 million worldwide. Eastern Orthodox adherents currently number around 210 million.
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Mark Aspam
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496716 wrote: If they're Uniate, as opposed to Orthodox, they're overwhelmingly outnumbered.No one's denying that, someone claimed that they didn't exist. I won't name names.

Nor do I think that the Eastern rites would object to being called schismatic, it's not a condemnation but an historical fact.

And by the way, the last time I checked, quite friendly with the Vatican nowadays.
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Post by G#Gill »

You have turned a respectful thread to Muhammad Ali into an argument about religion !!! Why can't people just be respectful to a well thought of sportsman who has just died ? I feel you are making a mockery of a thread devoted to a much-appreciated athlete. A man of the highest regard world-wide. There is absolutely no need to introduce religious bickering is there? I think it is quite shameful behaviour.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1496714 wrote: 1. The two have refused to recognize the validity of the other's Mass for well over a thousand years.

2. By all means refer me to a specific book and a quote - "Luther's Writings" occupy several yards on the library shelf and I can't find your reference from so vague a description.Sorry I overlooked these comments before.

1. My understanding is that the RCC regards the EO churches as having valid sacraments and valid orders. What is your source to the contrary?

2. Well, I studied Luther's writings in high school, a LONG LONG time ago, but the comment I've never forgotten was his wish to **** in his pants and throw them in the devil's face. Not exactly theology on a very high level.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

G#Gill;1496718 wrote: You have turned a respectful thread to Muhammad Ali into an argument about religion !!! Why can't people just be respectful to a well thought of sportsman who has just died ? I feel you are making a mockery of a thread devoted to a much-appreciated athlete. A man of the highest regard world-wide. There is absolutely no need to introduce religious bickering is there? I think it is quite shameful behaviour.I think I said that a couple of times before, thanks for the reminder G!
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Post by LarsMac »

Perhaps all the religious stuff could be peeled off to its own thread?
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