The Armenian Genocide

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I note that "Pope Francis has used the word "genocide" to describe mass killing of Armenians under Ottoman rule in WW1 100 years ago, at a Vatican church service": Pope Francis calls Armenian WW1 killings 'genocide' - BBC News

Not before time, too. It's blatantly obvious that the mass slaughter of Armenian civilians by the Ottomans is a historical event.

I remember the first time the Internet was weaponized, by a Turk, to deny the fact. He spent months around 1994 pouring propaganda indiscriminately onto Usenet under the pseudonym Serdar Argic in one of the most cowardly acts of vandalism the Internet ever experienced. Wherever the chap is now, hiding in military-controlled Turkish-occupied Cyprus or not, bad cess to him, the lying tosspot. He wrecked a unique environment.
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Why now and why not earlier on? taken them long enough to speak out and quite frankly until the catholic church acknowledges the part their teachings played in bringing on the holocaust and stop making false claims about hitler being an atheist, apologises for their opart in supporting him, defrocks paedophile priests and places them at the disposal of civil authorities the pope can hardly lay claim to the moral high ground when it comes to crimews against humanity.

They have an interest in stirring up christiam/muslim conflict or maybe I am just terribly cynical.
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The Turkish government has knee-jerked as usual: Turkey anger at Pope Francis Armenian 'genocide' claim - BBC News

If the Turkish people want to transform their society into a country fit to interact with civilized people, the minimum required of them is that they acknowledge the mass slaughter of Armenian civilians by the Ottomans as a historical event instead of falling back on a mealy-mouthed trivializing of what happened, and to formally apologize on behalf of those who did it. I don't care a toss whether they throw in the word "genocide", what annoys me is their blind prejudiced denial of history.
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Surely the question has to be asked as to how long does something have to be before history becomes just that - history? Just as children cannot be held accountable for the sins of their parents, how can the descendants of multiple generations be held to account for the acts of their ancestors? Should we find the direct descendants of those who participated in the Crusades & prosecute them for War Crimes, or those Scandinavian warmongers for the invasion of our very own Peace-Loving British Isles? Or Italy, for the invasion of practically everywhere by the Romans?

Surely a line must be drawn somewhere - but where?
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I wouldn't dream of holding any Turk responsible for the genocide. I hold the present-day Turks in general and the Turkish government in particular responsible for refusing to acknowledge the mass slaughter of Armenian civilians by the Ottomans as a historical event. This blind, bigoted and prejudiced refusal is the fault of the current generation, is insultingly barbaric and is easily rectified.
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gmc;1477400 wrote: Why now and why not earlier on? taken them long enough to speak out and quite frankly until the catholic church acknowledges the part their teachings played in bringing on the holocaust and stop making false claims about hitler being an atheist, apologises for their opart in supporting him, defrocks paedophile priests and places them at the disposal of civil authorities the pope can hardly lay claim to the moral high ground when it comes to crimews against humanity.

They have an interest in stirring up christiam/muslim conflict

or maybe I am just terribly cynical.
No. I don't think you are.
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spot;1477401 wrote: The Turkish government has knee-jerked as usual: Turkey anger at Pope Francis Armenian 'genocide' claim - BBC News

If the Turkish people want to transform their society into a country fit to interact with civilized people, the minimum required of them is that they acknowledge the mass slaughter of Armenian civilians by the Ottomans as a historical event instead of falling back on a mealy-mouthed trivializing of what happened, and to formally apologize on behalf of those who did it. I don't care a toss whether they throw in the word "genocide", what annoys me is their blind prejudiced denial of history.


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FourPart;1477402 wrote: Surely the question has to be asked as to how long does something have to be before history becomes just that - history? ...................... Surely a line must be drawn somewhere - but where?
... and the answer might be "COMPENSATION" in the way that Germany pays to the Jews.
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High Threshold;1477407 wrote: ... and the answer might be "COMPENSATION" in the way that Germany pays to the Jews.


With tongue firmly in cheek might I suggest that the holocaust was payback for the jews killing jesus? It took the catholic church till 1962 to concede that maybe not all jews were to blame just a few of them. The Killing of jesus has been the justification for anti-semitism for so long it was ingrained in our psyche.

If we all start paying compensation for wrongs done by our various ancestors whre do you begin or call a halt?
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gmc;1477412 wrote: With tongue firmly in cheek might I suggest that the holocaust was payback for the jews killing jesus? It took the catholic church till 1962 to concede that maybe not all jews were to blame just a few of them. The Killing of jesus has been the justification for anti-semitism for so long it was ingrained in our psyche.

If we all start paying compensation for wrongs done by our various ancestors whre do you begin or call a halt?


First of all the Jews didn't kill Jesus so there is no “payback” to be had. Secondly, the subject of ancestry isn't on the board. Both the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian thing took place in the 1900's – hardly a long-reaching ancestral complaint. Germany isn't paying compensation to the Jews of all generations until the end of time, you should know. Third (and the only on-topic response) is that it's the possibility of “compensation” that MIGHT lie at the bottom of Turkey's denial.
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High Threshold;1477413 wrote: First of all the Jews didn't kill Jesus so there is no “payback” to be had.


You know, you've said that before and you simply misunderstand the issue. The claim that the Jews killed Jesus is based on the Barabbas story:Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked. And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barabbas. And the crowd came up and began to ask Pilate to do as he usually did for them. And he answered them, saying, “Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?” For he perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release for them Barabbas instead. And Pilate again said to them, “Then what shall I do with the man you call the King of the Jews?” And they cried out again, “Crucify him.” Question: Why did Jesus die? Answer: A crowd representing all of the Jewish nation demanded it at a public meeting, and had they not done so Jesus would have been released.
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spot;1477414 wrote: You know, you've said that before and you simply misunderstand the issue.
This must be the “I've heard it all before” argument.

spot;1477414 wrote: The claim that the Jews killed Jesus is based on the Barabbas story:Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked. And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barabbas. And the crowd came up and began to ask Pilate to do as he usually did for them. And he answered them, saying, “Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?” For he perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release for them Barabbas instead. And Pilate again said to them, “Then what shall I do with the man you call the King of the Jews?” And they cried out again, “Crucify him.” Question: Why did Jesus die? Answer: A crowd representing all of the Jewish nation demanded it at a public meeting, and had they not done so Jesus would have been released.
You know, you've said that before. A simple lack of logic on the part of the Christians and anyone (certainly not you) who support it - in this, the age of enlightenment.

Question: Was someone else released or are the Jews to blame to each and every living thing put to the Roman sword?
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Not only did Pope Benedict XI dismiss the claim of the Jews being responsible, rather than the crowd, but it appears that there's no historical record of the supposed tradition of releasing a prisoner anywhere, except in the Gospels, and therefore has questionable merit as far as its veracity is concerned.

Also, something I never knew - Barabbas' first name was Jesus, so you could say that when they called for Jesus to be released the Romans misunderstood. ;-)

Barabbas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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FourPart;1477417 wrote: Not only did Pope Benedict XI dismiss the claim of the Jews being responsible, rather than the crowd, but it appears that there's no historical record of the supposed tradition of releasing a prisoner anywhere, except in the Gospels, and therefore has questionable merit as far as its veracity is concerned.

Also, something I never knew - Barabbas' first name was Jesus, so you could say that when they called for Jesus to be released the Romans misunderstood. ;-)

Barabbas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You rather miss the point that for two thousand years the jews were blamed by the church for the crucifixion and the origins of anti-semitism lie in those teachings. Prejudice does not need to be rational or have any basis in reality for it to take hold. More to the point if the religious authorities are the ones perpetrating the prejudice and it's church doctrine to challenge such a prejudice was to go against god and downright dangerous. Nowadays we like to think we are more enlightened but there are plenty who want to go back to the good old days when we were all god fearing and quite frankly I don't believe any religious leader has any interest in human rights or living in a world of peace and understanding just what serves the interests of their own church.

First of all the Jews didn't kill Jesus so there is no “payback” to be had. Secondly, the subject of ancestry isn't on the board. Both the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian thing took place in the 1900's – hardly a long-reaching ancestral complaint. Germany isn't paying compensation to the Jews of all generations until the end of time, you should know. Third (and the only on-topic response) is that it's the possibility of “compensation” that MIGHT lie at the bottom of Turkey's denial.




Now that makes sense. The turks tried to convert europe to islam by force why not drag up all that as well? Christian against muslim stone age religion versus stone age religion yopu couldn't make this stuff up could you.
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FourPart;1477417 wrote: ........ it appears that there's no historical record of the supposed tradition of releasing a prisoner anywhere, except in the Gospels, and therefore has questionable merit as far as its veracity is concerned.
That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that. It would be an interesting line to follow.

FourPart;1477417 wrote: Also, something I never knew - Barabbas' first name was Jesus, so you could say that when they called for Jesus to be released the Romans misunderstood. ;-)
"You could say"? Why not let us say it! If we did, we'd just be the latest addition to an even newer testament. Is there anything wrong in that?
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gmc;1477422 wrote: Now that makes sense. The turks tried to convert europe to islam by force why not drag up all that as well? Christian against muslim stone age religion versus stone age religion yopu couldn't make this stuff up could you.
If you have a relevant point to make you might try to make it clearer than it is. You also might like to see what I actually wrote because it could save you some time and trouble.
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High Threshold;1477416 wrote: You know, you've said that before. A simple lack of logic on the part of the Christians and anyone (certainly not you) who support it - in this, the age of enlightenment.
The thread brought the issue up in the context of previous generations in an age of acknowledged darkness. I agree there are still some froth-lipped fundamentalist Christians who continue to peddle their filthy interpretation about inherited guilt.

Question: Was someone else released or are the Jews to blame to each and every living thing put to the Roman sword?


"Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released for them Barabbas". Mark 15:15.
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spot;1477433 wrote: The thread brought the issue up in the context of previous generations in an age of acknowledged darkness. I agree there are still some froth-lipped fundamentalist Christians who continue to peddle their filthy interpretation about inherited guilt.
The thing is, I criticise Judaism and Islam (etc.) mostly from what I've heard, what I've read, and what I assume explains the attitude of those I see in my proximity. Christianity I criticise from teachings and example – in other words from the “inside”. And criticise I most certainly do. Too much of Christian foundation rests upon superstition and (as you say) “froth-lipped … filthy interpretation about inherited guilt”. Our opinions may only differ in the fact that I attribute that description to much more than “fundamentalist Christians”. Possibly even worse than those are the fringe Christians who never bother with Christianity other than the fact that they were baptised. They don't even bother scanning the Bible looking for support, but just make it up as they go along. A recently deceased cousin of mine was one of those. I tried to engage him in an earnest discussion on the subject but he kept repeating, “He washed his hands! He washed his hands! He washed his hands!” But then what sort of intelligent response could I have expected of him? …. he was (after all) a cousin from my mother's side of the family.

I read once an interesting piece on how the New Testament is specifically anti-Semitic, complete with a walk-through pointing out the examples. I'll have to look it up and read it again.
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High Threshold;1477428 wrote: If you have a relevant point to make you might try to make it clearer than it is. You also might like to see what I actually wrote because it could save you some time and trouble.


Dotto. I will make allowances since I know english is a second language for you.

posted by high threshold

The thing is, I criticise Judaism and Islam (etc.) mostly from what I've heard, what I've read, and what I assume explains the attitude of those I see in my proximity. Christianity I criticise from teachings and example – in other words from the “inside”. And criticise I most certainly do. Too much of Christian foundation rests upon superstition and (as you say) “froth-lipped … filthy interpretation about inherited guilt”. Our opinions may only differ in the fact that I attribute that description to much more than “fundamentalist Christians”. Possibly even worse than those are the fringe Christians who never bother with Christianity other than the fact that they were baptised. They don't even bother scanning the Bible looking for support, but just make it up as they go along. A recently deceased cousin of mine was one of those. I tried to engage him in an earnest discussion on the subject but he kept repeating, “He washed his hands! He washed his hands! He washed his hands!” But then what sort of intelligent response could I have expected of him? …. he was (after all) a cousin from my mother's side of the family.

I read once an interesting piece on how the New Testament is specifically anti-Semitic, complete with a walk-through pointing out the examples. I'll have to look it up and read it again.






Come of it the whole religion is based on the notion of inherited guilt. Original sin is the doctrine at the heart of christian theology - even a newborn baby is a sinner doomed to limbo unless it's baptised and eternal hellfire unless it follows the right path to god. Although believe the vatican recently babies that die befire they are baptised no longer go to limbo. Humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world the Genesis myth shows that transgressions (the original sin) committed by the first human pair brought about a “fall” of creation resulting in the present corrupt state of the world or alternatively the world is corrupt because the creator was corrupt. My personal viewpoint is that there was no creator and it's all a pack of stone age nonsense made in to a religion that is supposed to be scrosanct an treated ith respect.

Why don't you read the new testament for yourself and look for the anti-semitic bits or even have a look t the various congreeses where it was decided what was to be included in the bible and what was or was not the true belief. Biggest shock might be that it romans who were making all the decisions. It's a made up story written well after the events any gospels that contradicted the official version were sytematically removed and destroyed.

What is it with religiouis people that they never seem to read the bible for themselves or look in to who actually wrote it and just beleve any ninsense they are told.
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On a point of information, the passage about the Jewish crowd calling for the crucifixion of Jesus is one of the earliest fragments of the New Testament to have survived, on a copy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_90 dating around 175. That's at a time when Christianity was still periodically officially persecuted by the Roman authorities, and over a hundred years before the establishment of Christianity as the state religion, and it predates by centuries the canonical synods which you mention. Only one other New Testament fragment dates from before this one.
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gmc;1477459 wrote: Dotto. I will make allowances since I know english is a second language for you.
In that case I'll return your gift of tolerance and reciprocate in kind, though I must say that until now I really did think English was your mother tongue. My mistook.



gmc;1477459 wrote: Come of it the whole religion is based on the notion of inherited guilt. Original sin is the doctrine at the heart of christian theology - even a newborn baby is a sinner doomed to limbo unless it's baptised and eternal hellfire unless it follows the right path to god.
Yes, true enough. We are all to blame for that taste of apple. Damn the French.



gmc;1477459 wrote: Although believe the vatican recently babies that die befire they are baptised no longer go to limbo.
Recently, you say? Perhaps yes. But I am 68 and I do remember being told (Catholic school, you know) that the new born would go straight to hiven.

gmc;1477459 wrote: Why don't you read the new testament for yourself and look for the anti-semitic bits or even have a look t the various congreeses where it was decided what was to be included in the bible and what was or was not the true belief. Biggest shock might be that it romans who were making all the decisions. It's a made up story written well after the events any gospels that contradicted the official version were sytematically removed and destroyed.
Me? Read the whole thing? You're talking to the wrong guy. I'd rather watch TV re-runs of “Green Acres” all week long.

gmc;1477459 wrote: What is it with religiouis people that they never seem to read the bible for themselves or look in to who actually wrote it and just beleve any ninsense they are told.
The Lord works in strange ways, my son. But to answer your question … it be called “faith”. Maybe that's the heart of the problem. You don't really need to know anything to "know the truth" and shive it up everyone's nose.
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The Turkish President has addressed the world:Mr Erdogan said on Tuesday that when political or religious leaders played the role of historians, what resulted was "delirium, not fact".

"Hereby, I want to repeat our call to establish a joint commission of historians and stress we are ready to open our archives. I want to warn the Pope to not repeat this mistake and condemn him."

Turkey's Erdogan condemns Pope over Armenia 'genocide' - BBC News





You warn the Pope, Mr Erdogan? You condemn the Pope?

I seem to remember the last person to shoot a Pope was Turkish. Perhaps, Mr Erdogan, you could be construed as uttering a threat.
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Now, if the west were not so damned islamophobic then something positive might be accomplished.
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posted by high threshold

In that case I'll return your gift of tolerance and reciprocate in kind, though I must say that until now I really did think English was your mother tongue. My mistook.




I can spell I can type it's the two together I occasionally get wrfong, well more than occasionally actually.

Recently, you say? Perhaps yes. But I am 68 and I do remember being told (Catholic school, you know) that the new born would go straight to hiven.






2007 it was

The Pope ends state of limbo after 800 years - Telegraph

By Nick Pisa in Rome

12:01AM BST 23 Apr 2007

Babies who die before being baptised will no longer be trapped in limbo following a decision by the Pope to abolish the concept from Roman Catholic teaching.


Me? Read the whole thing? You're talking to the wrong guy. I'd rather watch TV re-runs of “Green Acres” all week long.




tsk tsk and there's me an atheist who sat down as a teenager to read the whole thing. (I won't pretend I read it from end to end in it's entireity) Brought up a protestant you see it was rather required reading since you were supposed to find your own way to god. Personally it should be required reading by all, in my exerience most christians and especially of the nuttier kind are rather selective in which bots they choose to believe in. Read bits of the koran as well but found it highly derivative and got sidetracked by the writings of Richard Francis Burton.

The Lord works in strange ways, my son. But to answer your question … it be called “faith”. Maybe that's the heart of the problem. You don't really need to know anything to "know the truth" and shive it up everyone's nose.


Maybe faith plus a reluctance to think too deeply.

What I was trying to get at (possibly in a rather obtuise way) is the sheer hypocrisy of the pope to criticise the turks for the armenian genocide while pretending his organisation had nothing to do with the holocaust and actively re-writing history to make hitler an atheist and that was the reason for what he did.

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.”

― Adolf Hitler




“The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan.”

― Adolf Hitler
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gmc;1477514 wrote: I can spell I can type it's the two together I occasionally get wrfong, well more than occasionally actually.
Tweren't your spelling but the redundancies, actually. As far as spelling goes it's the coordination between the “middle” and “ring” fingers of your right hand that's giving you trouble, so that the “o” becomes “i”.

gmc;1477514 wrote: 2007 it was
I must have been sleep-walking all through 1957-61. In addition to that detail I distinctly remember (being a Catholic mind) that eating meat on a Friday was a “MORTAL SIN” back then, but no one else seems to recall it that way.

gmc;1477514 wrote: The Pope ends state of limbo after 800 years - Telegraph (The Pope ends state of limbo after 800 years - Telegraph)

Babies who die before being baptised will no longer be trapped in limbo following a decision by the Pope to abolish the concept from Roman Catholic teaching.
You see now, our disagreement on the time-line not withstanding, this is the sort of thing (along with the eating of meat on Friday) that make people like me trot down to the bishop and formally denounce the church. I did so in 1978. I mean REALLY ….. who is it who decides these things - heaven or hell???

gmc;1477514 wrote:

tsk tsk and there's me an atheist who sat down as a teenager to read the whole thing. (I won't pretend I read it from end to end in it's entireity) Brought up a protestant you see it was rather required reading since you were supposed to find your own way to god. Personally it should be required reading by all, in my exerience�* most christians and especially of the nuttier kind are rather selective in which bots they choose to believe in.
I read the first chapter on a couple of occasions … and gave up. I don't really care who begot whom. I just wanted to know about the fire and brimstone, whatever was meant by Jesus being a “Jew”, and how a gun-totting self-inflated Charlton Heston could get the part of Moses. I finally decided that NOBODY knows anything more than I do.

gmc;1477514 wrote: What I was trying to get at (possibly in a rather obtuise way) is the sheer hypocrisy of the pope to criticise the turks for the armenian genocide while pretending his organisation had nothing to do with the holocaust and actively re-writing history to make hitler an atheist and that was the reason for what he did.
Hear, hear.

gmc;1477514 wrote: “My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.”

― Adolf Hitler
THIS is the very first time that I have EVER seen any reference to Hitler proclaiming Christian conciousness. I could never sympathise with him (an understatement) but my loathing has just trebled.

gmc;1477514 wrote: “The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan.”

― Adolf Hitler
Is that a quote by the CIA did you say? I think there might have been a fair bit of political psychology (a la J. Göbbels) tucked between the pages of chemical formulae aboard the U-234. Could that be the reason why the Whine House isn't gloating about the incident you think?
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posted by high threshold

Tweren't your spelling but the redundancies, actually. As far as spelling goes it's the coordination between the “middle” and “ring” fingers of your right hand that's giving you trouble, so that the “o” becomes “i”.


I tried teaching myself touch typing I just ended up making mistakes at a faster rate.

THIS is the very first time that I have EVER seen any reference to Hitler proclaiming Christian conciousness. I could never sympathise with him (an understatement) but my loathing has just trebled.




Don't take my word for it have a read of mein kampf. He wasn't simply a ranting lunatic othrwise he would not have had so many follow him.

Mein Kampf PDF Version | The Mein Kampf Project at Christogenea.org

And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord." (p.46




Bear in mind it was once a best seller and an awful lot of people all over the world agreed with him about race - scratch the surface many still do they just don't phrase it quite so openly. It's within living memory that Anti-miscegenation laws were in force in america thatcher and reagan supported apartheid and nelson mandela was a terrorist. Have a look at some of the opposition to barack obama they can barely contain their hatred for his racial background. He had it in for bankers and big business as well not to mention the communists and socialists - marx was jewish.

A conflict that set fire to the whole world and affects the way we live today I think people need to be aware of the past and why so many people died if only so that we don't all fall for it again. Sometimes I think we are.
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gmc;1477533 wrote: I tried teaching myself touch typing I just ended up making mistakes at a faster rate.
It's the law of averages.

gmc;1477533 wrote: mein kampf …... Bear in mind it was once a best seller
So was the Bible, Mao's “Red Book”, and Kaddafi's “Green Book”. Copies printed and sold mean nothing.

gmc;1477533 wrote: Have a look at some of the opposition to barack obama they can barely contain their hatred for his racial background.
I know. The racial tone is palpable.

gmc;1477533 wrote: A conflict that set fire to the whole world and affects the way we live today I think people need to be aware of the past and why so many people died …..I agree with that, but the grand problem is that 1984 has arrived and “being aware of the past” is being spun and packaged so that our “awareness” differs from someone's else's.

gmc;1477533 wrote: ….. if only so that we don't all fall for it again. Sometimes I think we are.
Only “sometimes”? It's all round us. Every day.
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Only “sometimes”? It's all round us. Every day.


I try and be optimistic. Big brother works both ways people are watching and posting online what is happening in the world. Theoretically was can vote for change and a better world. My parents were born just after ww1, imagine growing up expecting to go to war at some point and knowing what ww1 was like for the ordinary soldier. At least nowadays a full scale world war would last minutes and we would be all really in the **** or dead.
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gmc;1477550 wrote: ............................ At least nowadays a full scale world war would last minutes and we would be all really in the **** or dead.
Seems to me we've already had several World Wars since the Second one. The difference is that we now call them “conflicts”, “civil wars” (in which half the world participates), “leadership changes”, “war (without the caps) on Terrorism”, and any number of clandestine operations, black flag movements and coups implemented by governments abroad. If the doughboys of WW I felt like cannon fodder then the lads today are simple satchels of explosives, not very unlike the suicide bomber …........ except for who gets to pull the pin.
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High Threshold;1477554 wrote: Seems to me we've already had several World Wars since the Second one. The difference is that we now call them “conflicts”, “civil wars” (in which half the world participates), “leadership changes”, “war (without the caps) on Terrorism”, and any number of clandestine operations, black flag movements and coups implemented by governments abroad. If the doughboys of WW I felt like cannon fodder then the lads today are simple satchels of explosives, not very unlike the suicide bomber …........ except for who gets to pull the pin.
You could even say that the Japanese part wasn't even really anything to do with WW2, as it was totally unrelated to Nazism. Mind you, we should be grateful to the Japanese. They brought the US out of sitting on the sidelines of Neutrality. WW2 officially ended after VE Day. WW3 continued with the Japanese - they just overlapped.
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FourPart;1477587 wrote: You could even say that the Japanese part wasn't even really anything to do with WW2, as it was totally unrelated to Nazism. Mind you, we should be grateful to the Japanese. They brought the US out of sitting on the sidelines of Neutrality. WW2 officially ended after VE Day. WW3 continued with the Japanese - they just overlapped.
Too true. Hitler, it is said, was very cross with Japan for involving the Nazis by default. The attack on Pearl Harbour was as much of a surprise to Adolf as it was to the Americans.
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FourPart;1477587 wrote: You could even say that the Japanese part wasn't even really anything to do with WW2, as it was totally unrelated to Nazism. Mind you, we should be grateful to the Japanese. They brought the US out of sitting on the sidelines of Neutrality. WW2 officially ended after VE Day. WW3 continued with the Japanese - they just overlapped.


The sino-japanese war started in 1933 when they invaded manchuria after the natural resources they were involved in ww1 on the allied side. There arguably was a racial element and they also conducted medical experiments on chinese prisoners. In some ways you could say they were just playing the same game the european and yes the american imperial powers had played. Simple explanations never really explain all the factors involved.
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High Threshold;1477592 wrote: as it was to the Americans.


It wasn't a surprise to the Americans in the slightest, it was the inevitable consequence of US sanctions which FDR imposed solely to bring the Japanese to declare war. The surprise for everyone was Germany declaring war on the US, that wasn't in anyone's playbook.
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spot;1477598 wrote: It wasn't a surprise to the Americans in the slightest, it was the inevitable consequence of US sanctions which FDR imposed solely to bring the Japanese to declare war. The surprise for everyone was Germany declaring war on the US, that wasn't in anyone's playbook.
Well, you're not being entirely honest, are you. You know very well the “surprise” was the date, the time, the target, and ….. YES ….... even the fact that it was carried out at all. All you are are saying is that the Americans deserved it. No same ting, man. Their just deserves is another subject.
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High Threshold;1477605 wrote: Well, you're not being entirely honest, are you. You know very well the “surprise” was the date, the time, the target, and ….. YES ….... even the fact that it was carried out at all.
You have to be kidding me - surely you're aware that the US had broken the Japanese diplomatic cipher and had seen the instruction to the Japanese Washington Embassy to declare war, together with the text of the declaration, the day before the attack? Try reeding the NSA's account at https://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic_h ... rbor.shtml either side of this paragraph...

With the 14-part message available, warnings were sent to American bases overseas. But, there were delays. Admiral Stark, Chief of Naval Operations, felt that previous warnings had been enough to keep Pearl Harbor alert, and declined to wake Admiral Kimmel in Hawaii at an early hour. General George Marshall, Army Chief of Staff, spent that Sunday morning in his usual recreational horseback ride and was unavailable until close to noon. He authorized dispatch of a war warning, but, as it happened, Army communications to Hawaii were down due to technical problems, and the warning was sent -- via Western Union telegram!



... and bear in mind this is the NSA putting their best gloss on what was already public knowledge.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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spot;1477611 wrote: You have to be kidding me - surely you're aware that the US had broken the Japanese diplomatic cipher and had seen the instruction to the Japanese Washington Embassy to declare war, together with the text of the declaration, the day before the attack? Try reeding the NSA's account at https://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic_h ... rbor.shtml either side of this paragraph...

With the 14-part message available, warnings were sent to American bases overseas. But, there were delays. Admiral Stark, Chief of Naval Operations, felt that previous warnings had been enough to keep Pearl Harbor alert, and declined to wake Admiral Kimmel in Hawaii at an early hour. General George Marshall, Army Chief of Staff, spent that Sunday morning in his usual recreational horseback ride and was unavailable until close to noon. He authorized dispatch of a war warning, but, as it happened, Army communications to Hawaii were down due to technical problems, and the warning was sent -- via Western Union telegram!



... and bear in mind this is the NSA putting their best gloss on what was already public knowledge.
That tears it! :yh_angry I'm telling Trude Dog what you just said!

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High Threshold;1477605 wrote: Well, you're not being entirely honest, are you. You know very well the “surprise” was the date, the time, the target, and ….. YES ….... even the fact that it was carried out at all. All you are are saying is that the Americans deserved it. No same ting, man. Their just deserves is another subject.


spot;1477611 wrote: You have to be kidding me - surely you're aware that the US had broken the Japanese diplomatic cipher and had seen the instruction to the Japanese Washington Embassy to declare war, together with the text of the declaration, the day before the attack?


Come again?

“In the early morning hours of December 7th, Japanese aircraft from its carrier task force struck Hawaii -- not only the Navy base at Pearl Harbor, but also the Army installation at Schofield Barracks, the Army Air Corps's Hickam Field, and some smaller units. Their air operations continued for a little over two hours. The Japanese had achieved complete surprise.”

“Army cryptologists had been instructed to report in at mid-day on Sunday, December 7. When the news of the Japanese attack came, none were surprised at the fact of the attack, but

all, including William Friedman, were surprised at the location.”
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We (the US) knew something was coming, but not where. The expectation was that it would probably be the Phillipines.
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LarsMac;1477617 wrote: We (the US) knew something was coming, but not where. The expectation was that it would probably be the Phillipines.
"The Japanese had achieved complete surprise.” " ... all, including William Friedman, were surprised at the location.”
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You already said that.
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LarsMac;1477617 wrote: We (the US) knew something was coming, but not where. ...
I already said that.
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High Threshold;1477622 wrote: I already said that.


Yes, you did.
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In all their wars / conflicts, the Americans never expect the battle to be played on Home Ground.
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FourPart;1477639 wrote: In all their wars / conflicts, the Americans never expect the battle to be played on Home Ground.
They claim that's the reason they wage their wars abroad ... "to protect their freedom", if you can believe that load of croc.
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Do you think they would be quite so keen to start their wars if they thought there was any real chance of fighting the war at home?
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FourPart;1477643 wrote: Do you think they would be quite so keen to start their wars if they thought there was any real chance of fighting the war at home?
No, I don't think so. I reckon when they realized the gullibility of such a large part of humanity to believe, “Jesus died for our sins” they figured they could apply that kind of logic to their own non-Democratic use, such as “with us or against us” and “love it or leave it” ….. and pawn it off as “Leading the free world” and “Champions of Democracy”. Sort of an anti-logic
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I note that Time Magazine's "most influential person in the world" has been announced this week, after a poll of (mostly international) subscribers, to be President Vladimir Putin, who out-scored President Obama by a factor of five.

So much for all the anti-Putin Western propaganda of the last few months. I'll tell you what, if he had a party standing in the UK election he'd be a home dunk, there's nobody remotely resembling his stature in this country.
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spot;1477658 wrote: I note that Time Magazine's "most influential person in the world" has been announced this week, after a poll of (mostly international) subscribers, to be President Vladimir Putin, who out-scored President Obama by a factor of five.

So much for all the anti-Putin Western propaganda of the last few months. I'll tell you what, if he had a party standing in the UK election he'd be a home dunk, there's nobody remotely resembling his stature in this country.


Well his actions of course are consequential so in that respect he is influential, good or bad.

As for his potential popularity here, he is no less arrogant and full of self importance than our own politicians. I dont see the attraction
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He's trustworthy and he gets results.
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spot;1477664 wrote: He's trustworthy and he gets results.


Well, he gets results.
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