The Armenian Genocide

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Post by spot »

I am not a subscriber of Time Magazine, otherwise Professor Brian Cox would have got an extra vote.
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spot;1477668 wrote: I am not a subscriber of Time Magazine, otherwise Professor Brian Cox would have got an extra vote.


I'd be happy to give him mine too. Much better than Putin baring his chest on horse back. All that testosterone !
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Snowfire;1477669 wrote: I'd be happy to give him mine too. Much better than Putin baring his chest on horse back. All that testosterone !


Thought he needed a training bra. At least. Pewtin.
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I would agree that Putin is probably the most influential person in the world at the moment. What must be borne in mind, though, is that being influential doesn't necessarily mean influential in the positive sense. It simply means it influences the outcome of things. He has certainly done that by bringing about what is essentially a return to the Cold War & putting everyone on the brink of a World War. I call that influential.
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That's one interpretation, supported by a whole host of newspaper reporters trotting out what their governments feed them. I see him rather as someone acting in the best interest of the citizens he serves.
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spot;1477403 wrote: I wouldn't dream of holding any Turk responsible for the genocide. I hold the present-day Turks in general and the Turkish government in particular responsible for refusing to acknowledge the mass slaughter of Armenian civilians by the Ottomans as a historical event. This blind, bigoted and prejudiced refusal is the fault of the current generation, is insultingly barbaric and is easily rectified.


That whiny xenophobic Chauvinist denigrator of women, President Erdogan, is again foaming at the mouth instead of ending the Armenian matter once and for all with a formal acceptance of guilt on behalf of the Ottoman Empire and an apology.

German MPs recognise Armenian 'genocide' amid Turkish fury - BBC News

I've no idea how or when he thinks he's going to bulldoze his backward corrupt nation into the European Union but I doubt anyone alive today will see it happen, mostly because of this continual Who's Da Man posturing of his own current misogynist regime in a country which had once honorably aspired to become a secular constitutional republic.
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I have no idea what the BBC website editor thinks he means by putting the word genocide in "alleged" quotation marks at German genocide vote inflames tensions with Turkey - BBC News

It would be equally insensitive to put the same quotation marks round the word Holocaust when discussing the Holocaust. There are Holocaust deniers and they are vile people. The BBC seems to have employed an Armenian Genocide denier too.

What should we expect next? References to "World War" Two?
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I can't really get why this is such an issue.

It seems that by now, it should just be an accepted part of history. Time to move on.

Turkey denying the thing is like Italy denying the Roman sack of Jerusalem.
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The Romans killed Jesus.
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Entirely legally though, they shouldn't be criticized for it.
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spot;1496806 wrote: Entirely legally though, they shouldn't be criticized for it.


Since all the relevant parties are all long dead, I reckon not.
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spot;1496806 wrote: Entirely legally though, they shouldn't be criticized for it.


They weren't. Guess who was??????????
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I didn't say anything, I wasn't there. By the time the offending line was written everyone with first-hand knowledge was long dead. The line is a blatant shoe-in political afterthought, not journalism. It says a lot about the mindset of the 2nd century Christian church, it says nothing at all about the population of Jerusalem in the first century AD.
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Genocide is a relatively modern concept.

How do you define genocide? - BBC News

So what is genocide and when can that term be applied?

UN definition

The term was coined in 1943 by the Jewish-Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin who combined the Greek word "genos" (race or tribe) with the Latin word "cide" (to kill).

After witnessing the horrors of the Holocaust, in which every member of his family except his brother was killed, Dr Lemkin campaigned to have genocide recognised as a crime under international law.

His efforts gave way to the adoption of the UN Convention on Genocide in December 1948, which came into effect in January 1951.

Article Two of the convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":

Killing members of the group

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The convention also imposes a general duty on states that are signatories to "prevent and to punish" genocide.

Since its adoption, the UN treaty has come under fire from different sides, mostly by people frustrated with the difficulty of applying it to specific cases.


If were all going to start apologising for past genocidal actions then the british, americans, french, germans, japanese, chinese zulu - well try and think of any nation that hasn't at one time or another has tried to exterminate somebody for ethnic, religious or simple land grabbing reasons. Maybe the turks should apologise for trying to conqueor europe while they're at it. Acknowledge the past and move on preferably without pretending that ascribing 21 century viewpoints to 20th century actions is beneficial.

posted by larsmac

Turkey denying the thing is like Italy denying the Roman sack of Jerusalem.




Not to mention the invasion of gaul, germany, britain, syri,a romania etc etc.

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gmc;1496843 wrote: If were all going to start apologising for past genocidal actions then the british, americans, french, germans, japanese, chinese zulu - well try and think of any nation that hasn't at one time or another has tried to exterminate somebody for ethnic, religious or simple land grabbing reasons. Maybe the turks should apologise for trying to conqueor europe while they're at it. Acknowledge the past and move on preferably without pretending that ascribing 21 century viewpoints to 20th century actions is beneficial.


I have no great desire to see the buggers apologize for the past, I'm complaining that their dog of a President denies the historical event happened at all. It's the intransigent knee-jerk belligerent lying denial I object to. They can say it was justified for all I care, what they can't do is refuse to acknowledge that it happened.

The reason they go out killing Kurds today as their local equivalent of fox-hunting is that they refuse to acknowledge they have a history of behaving like this.
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spot;1496847 wrote: I have no great desire to see the buggers apologize for the past, I'm complaining that their dog of a President denies the historical event happened at all. It's the intransigent knee-jerk belligerent lying denial I object to. They can say it was justified for all I care, what they can't do is refuse to acknowledge that it happened.

The reason they go out killing Kurds today as their local equivalent of fox-hunting is that they refuse to acknowledge they have a history of behaving like this.




One of the great achievements of the turkish people post ww1 was to create a state with a seculat constitution What is worryimng imo is attempts to turn what is currently a secular state in to a muslim one. Anyone not a muslim or female in turkey has reason to worry about what will happen. It's the same is happening in countries like india, the releigious get politicval power and they set about destroying democracy
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gmc;1496852 wrote: One of the great achievements of the turkish people post ww1 was to create a state with a seculat constitution What is worryimng imo is attempts to turn what is currently a secular state in to a muslim one. Anyone not a muslim or female in turkey has reason to worry about what will happen. It's the same is happening in countries like india, the releigious get politicval power and they set about destroying democracy


It's interesting to see the demographics of the conflict - the urban secular against the rural Islamic.

Kemal Ataturk had a great vision, it's sad to see it being destroyed.
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I just wonder what's next. Shall we pester Putin to apologize for the destruction of the Kulaks? The Starvation of the Ukraine and Georgia?
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I had no idea it was Russian policy to deny that those events happened. Are you sure they deny it? I thought the Russians wrote history books about it.
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spot;1496897 wrote: I had no idea it was Russian policy to deny that those events happened. Are you sure they deny it? I thought the Russians wrote history books about it.


I dunno. Just saying. Whether it happened, or not, whether acknowledged, or not. All that stuff is in the past, and should stay there. It's time to move on.

Turkey of today is quite far removed from the events of 100 years ago.

It probably would be good for them to just say, "OK, yeah, that happened a long time ago. We have nothing to do with what the Ottoman Empire did."

Seems simple enough.
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Don't tell I, tell 'Ee.
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spot;1496522 wrote: That whiny xenophobic Chauvinist denigrator of women, President Erdogan, is again foaming at the mouth instead of ending the Armenian matter once and for all


What's more, he's crippling his country in the process:Istiklal Sevuk has run his jewellery shop for almost 30 years and says it's never been so bad. "Yes we have terror attacks in the main cities - but our biggest problem is our government and President Erdogan," he says.

"He doesn't follow peace with our neighbours and he's damaging the image of the country. We don't have a government anymore - we have one man who does everything. Erdogan is why we're in this mess."

In the once Russian-dominated area of Belek, businesses have been crushed. One tour operator, Pegas, used to bring 19 planes a day to Antalya, full of Russians. Now the company has had to ditch the fleet and fire 3,000 staff.

Turkey tourism: an industry in crisis - BBC News

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Is he not an elected official?
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A demagogue is someone who can command sufficient support from within his electorate to be let loose on the world despite his blatant inadequacies. You may well be about to discover this yourself.
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spot;1497153 wrote: A demagogue is someone who can command sufficient support from within his electorate to be let loose on the world despite his blatant inadequacies. You may well be about to discover this yourself.


I wish I could deny that with some confidence. Alas, you may be right.
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Turkey's suppressing a military coup this evening.

What a totally tinpot little country President Erdogan has reduced the place to.

I really don't care which side wins but at least they're not getting membership of the EU.

Turkey army group announces takeover on TV - BBC News
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Post by loreng morena »

They have an interest in stirring up christiam/muslim conflict or maybe I am just terribly cynical.
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Who has? The Turkish armed forces? The persecuted political opposition of what used to be the secular republic of Turkey? Dyed-in-the-wool Islamic fundamentalist fanatics like President Erdogan? There are a lot of factions in Turkey.

Who benefited from ordering an ineffectual number of uninformed troops onto the streets of Istanbul seven weeks ago and then announcing by cellphone that there was an attempted coup in progress? Who already had lists prepared for the arrest of a hundred thousand educated critics?

I've no idea how Christianity plays any part in Turkey either culturally or politically, perhaps you could flesh out your suggestion. The proportion of the Turkish population which is Christian is 0.2%.

The people being killed by the Turkish armed forces are Muslim, most of them are Kurdish, most of whom for far too long a period have been unarmed non-combatant refugees. The people being tortured in Turkish prisons are Turkish citizens who would, very understandably, prefer an internationally respected secular government instead of an isolationist return to the 1500s.
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Post by gmc »

I think you're about to see an attempt to wipe out the kurds, unfortnately for them they are sitting on large oil reserves. Turkey is about to become an islamic state.
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Who believes what most politicians say? Not I.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1500925 wrote: Who believes what most politicians say? Not I.


How do you explain donald trump or brexit? or the iraq war post 911. People do believe even in the face of damning evidence of the lies being told.
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Whatever might get you reelected.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1500934 wrote: Whatever might get you reelected.


Doesn't explain why people believe them though. I think they just hear what feeds in to their prejudices unfortunately prejudice can be shaped and once shaped it's really hard to change people's minds even when the facts that influence their decision are demonstrably wrong.
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Post by Ted »

Eric Fromm, I believe, wrote a book titled "Escape From Freedom" based on the idea that people would sooner have others make there decisions for them. They really don't like the freedom to choose and would rather have someone else make the decisions. This is apparently a more comfortable position.
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spot;1477399 wrote: I remember the first time the Internet was weaponized, by a Turk, to deny the fact. He spent months around 1994 pouring propaganda indiscriminately onto Usenet under the pseudonym Serdar Argic in one of the most cowardly acts of vandalism the Internet ever experienced. Wherever the chap is now, hiding in military-controlled Turkish-occupied Cyprus or not, bad cess to him, the lying tosspot. He wrecked a unique environment.


The world is nevertheless slowly getting woke to the historical truth:

Nikol Pashinyan Verified Account

@NikolPashinyan



I salute the US Congress historic vote recognizing the Armenian Genocide. Resolution 296 is a bold step towards serving truth and historical #justice that also offers comfort to millions of descendants of the Armenian Genocide survivors.






Where would we be without Twitter.
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