Louisiana Privatizing Education

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:22 pm

yaaarrrgg;1395948 wrote: If the science scores do not improve, the next round of pressure will be to dumb down the tests, or increase cheating.
This is the one and only legitimate use I see for the federal Dept of Education: tracking scores and making reports so that the states can benchmark off each other. Maybe make an annual or less periodic standard test to mark any trends in improvement or decline ... not making passing the test mandatory to graduate; not tying any mandates to the test on threat of losing some kind of funding ... just for tracking & reporting.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:00 pm

Accountable;1395965 wrote: Thisis the one and only legitimate use I see for the federal Dept of Defense: tracking scores and making reports so that the states can benchmark off each other. Maybe make an annual or less periodic standard test to mark any trends in improvement or decline ... not making passing the test mandatory to graduate; not tying any mandates to the test on threat of losing some kind of funding ... just for tracking & reporting.

Did I miss something? Why would the Department of Defense be tracking test scores?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:32 am

Wandrin;1395975 wrote: Did I miss something? Why would the Department of Defense be tracking test scores?

I meant Education. I'll fix the original. Thanks.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:09 am

Accountable;1395986 wrote: I meant Education. I'll fix the original. Thanks.I figured you were serious because it made about as much sense as the rest of your ranting in this thread.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:28 pm

Ahso!;1395991 wrote: I figured you were serious because it made about as much sense as the rest of your ranting in this thread.
Gee, you really got your panties twisted over this, huh? Here:

Circle of Concern - Circle of Influence

Of all the good suggestions in The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, "Habit 1: Be Proactive" is particularly useful when you feel powerless against life's forces. Covey recommends examining what you can do instead of focusing on worries over which you have no control.Click here for more.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:01 am

Accountable;1395998 wrote: Gee, you really got your panties twisted over this, huh? Here:

Click here for more.

Retaliation in three, two...

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:40 pm

Accountable;1395749 wrote: I agree. It seems to be the way politicians do things nowadays. Not too long ago someone asked the question of which country's education system had the highest scoring students. The answer was Finland, I believe. But rather than investigating to see what they were doing & how, our politicians simply asked how much they were spending per student.

Perhaps they don't want to know the answer because it is state funded, compulsory and has a national curriculum and there are very few private schools. Access to education is seen as a right and very few doubt the legitimacy of the government setting the standards and also imposing them on what private schools there are. That's right socialist or basic common sense depending on our point of view.

I would be very cynical about the motives of those who want to privatise education and you are correct in accusing me of hostility to faith based schools. I make no bones about it, but don't accuse me of prejudice which is an unreasoned opinion. I have very good reasons and personal experience to find religious schools appalling and to consider them divisive. even our football teams separate supporters by their religion. Furthermore politically I think it safe to say we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum - though in UK terms i would be left of centre and I make no apology for that - I will always be on the side of liberty and freedom those values enshrined in the very word liberal. You not having benefited from a liberal broad based education I make allowances for and hope to interest you enough you start doing your own research. Religion is important and should be taught as a subject in it's own right but to segregate children on religious grounds and worse allow religious authorities control over what is taught in those schools is a recipe for disaster imo. I note what you say about how the courses would be monitored but how long before, in the name of religious freedom, there are calls for religious schools to teach what they like. After all they are private and the parents are choosing to send them there.

At the moment people can choose to send their kids to what you call a public school or to a private one. This voucher system will take money away from state education and give it to private institutions. I can see why they all think it a wonderful idea. You need a well educated workforce in a modern economy - rather than cutting the money and resources it rather suggests more should be done and perhaps spent to improve your education system, education has a value in itself it is far too important to be left to the market. That is something every good capitalist should know if they can think for themselves rather than the garbage coming out of right wing think tanks.

Do you seriously think any protestant is going to go to a catholic school no matter how good? Or any good catholic will want their children exposed to the heresies preached by baptists and the like, even the piscies find them a but extreme. ? You have catholic schools I presume in Louisiana - how many accept protestants and how many non Catholics actually attend them? That's just the tip of the iceberg just wait till the seventh day adventists get going on the baptists. Would you send your kids to a mormon school or to a muslim school? If that is all that is near you what choice do you actually have?

Religious leaders of all stamps want to control their flocks - they need ill-educated flocks who believe everything they are told secular education is the best way to defeat them always has been and they know it that's why they want to change the education system in the states and why they bleat abut an assault on religion, there isn't but anyone questioning what they are told to believe they seem to find frightening. If they succeed you will have a right wing Christian government riding roughshod over your constitution in no time at all. They only reason to have religious schools of any kind is so the priests can control their flock and indoctrinate the children, I don't really care what they do in Louisiana, I just find it sad they are trying to go backwards. What chance any industry will invest there without a good educational infrastructure?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:18 pm

gmc;1396126 wrote: Perhaps they don't want to know the answer because it is state funded, compulsory and has a national curriculum and there are very few private schools. Access to education is seen as a right and very few doubt the legitimacy of the government setting the standards and also imposing them on what private schools there are. That's right socialist or basic common sense depending on our point of view. You often have brilliant insight on numerous subjects, but on this one your view is appallingly shallow. Education doesn't give a damn where the money comes from. A curriculum is not naturally superior simply because it is uniform. Your implication that education is not seen as a right in the US is false, and I believe you know that and so have lied.

The issue is far deeper than whether people pay a school directly or use the government as a middleman. It is cultural. Our society has never placed great value on education. Far more weight is given to ingenuity and hard work.

From some recent research I've been doing, it seems to have started in the 19th century. Prior to that, men took the responsibility of teaching the children (remember that western society was very sexist then) which reflected the high priority they placed on education. Towns and territories on the American frontier started hiring single women to teach because (1) they could save money over hiring men, and (2) women were less likely to cause a fuss if a farmer decided to pull his kids out of school to work the harvest.

I would be willing to bet that the ratio of male to female teachers remained very high in Europe, while American society eventually started regarding teaching as "women's work." As a result, education still has a far lower priority in the US than in many other countries.

gmc;1396126 wrote: I would be very cynical about the motives of those who want to privatise education and you are correct in accusing me of hostility to faith based schools. I make no bones about it, but don't accuse me of prejudice which is an unreasoned opinion. I have very good reasons and personal experience to find religious schools appalling and to consider them divisive. I'd allow you that .... if we were talking about Scotland. Since we're not, you have NO personal experience in the subject at hand, and therefore must make prejudiced opinions. Cultures differ. Religions differ. Religions of similar name are different in different cultures. Your hostility is little different from a child whose father was abusive assuming that all fathers are abusive.

gmc;1396126 wrote: even our football teams separate supporters by their religion.Further evidence that your experience does not apply to the situation in the US.

gmc;1396126 wrote: Furthermore politically I think it safe to say we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum - though in UK terms i would be left of centre and I make no apology for that - I will always be on the side of liberty and freedom those values enshrined in the very word liberal. You not having benefited from a liberal broad based education I make allowances for and hope to interest you enough you start doing your own research. Please explain to me how in God's name I'm not supposed to be insulted by that!

gmc;1396126 wrote: You need a well educated workforce in a modern economy - rather than cutting the money and resources it rather suggests more should be done and perhaps spent to improve your education system, education has a value in itself it is far too important to be left to the market. It's far too important to be left to one system to stagnate.

gmc;1396126 wrote: That is something every good capitalist should know if they can think for themselves rather than the garbage coming out of right wing think tanks. Or left wing ones.

gmc;1396126 wrote: Do you seriously think any protestant is going to go to a catholic school no matter how good?Yes. It happens all the time. Again, and I'd appreciate it if you would read it aloud to yourself and maybe get someone else to read it aloud to you as well, so that it might finally sink in.

We are not Scotland. The US is a different culture. We do not experience the same things or in the same ways as you do.

Protestant students help Catholic schools survive

Queen of Angels Catholic School in North Huntingdon was also in danger of closing. Instead, the number of students has increased by 20 percent over the past five years. In Greensburg, Aquinas Academy's middle school grew almost 6 percent because some children transferred from public school. All Saints Regional School in Masontown, Fayette County, recorded a 5 percent gain over last year. More than a quarter of its students are not Catholic.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:33 am

Accountable;1396143 wrote: Please explain to me how in God's name I'm not supposed to be insulted by that!

Perhaps leaving god out of the equation. Technically, self-righteous attitudes are, after all, god-given.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:36 am

We all need to understand that in most places in the US our religions( Catholic, Protestant) do not have the history of hate and divisiveness. I have a sister in law who is catholic and I am not. We have often discussed why there is so much hatred and trouble between religions in Europe. We don't worry too much around here which religion you are, at least we don't go militant about it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:43 am

YZGI;1396187 wrote: We all need to understand that in most places in the US our religions( Catholic, Protestant) do not have the history of hate and divisiveness. I have a sister in law who is catholic and I am not. We have often discussed why there is so much hatred and trouble between religions in Europe. We don't worry too much around here which religion you are, at least we don't go militant about it.You don't consider excluding groups of people from enjoying equal rights hateful or divisive? What about inventing lies about religions other than christian ones (Islam as an example)? That's not hateful or divisive.

When was the last time America went to war against a Christian country?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:45 am

Ahso!;1396188 wrote: You don't consider excluding groups of people from enjoying equal rights hateful or divisive? What about inventing lies about religions other than christian ones (Islam as an example)? That's not hateful or divisive.

When was the last time America went to war against a Christian country?

When was the last time Catholics and Protestants fought in the US?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:47 am

YZGI;1396190 wrote: When was the last time Catholics and Protestants fought in the US?Civil War?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:49 am

Ahso!;1396191 wrote: Civil War?

You're implying the Civil war had undertones of a religious discontent between the catholics and Protestants?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:54 am

YZGI;1396192 wrote: You're implying the Civil war had undertones of a religious discontent between the catholics and Protestants?I'd say so, but I'd remove your "the" from the above sentence.

eta:I'd should say that I'd call many of the differences between the north and south as rooted in religious dogma. Whatever we want to call the south's dominant version of christianity as opposed to the north's version. Not necessarily catholic vs protestant.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:11 am

Ahso!;1396194 wrote: I'd say so, but I'd remove your "the" from the above sentence.

eta:I'd should say that I'd call many of the differences between the north and south as rooted in religious dogma. Whatever we want to call the south's dominant version of christianity as opposed to the north's version. Not necessarily catholic vs protestant.
LOL! You're so bigoted against religion that even when no evidence points toward religious guilt, you assume you must've missed it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:12 am

Ahso!;1396188 wrote: You don't consider excluding groups of people from enjoying equal rights hateful or divisive? What about inventing lies about religions other than christian ones (Islam as an example)? That's not hateful or divisive.

When was the last time America went to war against a Christian country?

1941

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:16 pm

Accountable;1396143 wrote: You often have brilliant insight on numerous subjects, but on this one your view is appallingly shallow. Education doesn't give a damn where the money comes from. A curriculum is not naturally superior simply because it is uniform. Your implication that education is not seen as a right in the US is false, and I believe you know that and so have lied.

The issue is far deeper than whether people pay a school directly or use the government as a middleman. It is cultural. Our society has never placed great value on education. Far more weight is given to ingenuity and hard work.

From some recent research I've been doing, it seems to have started in the 19th century. Prior to that, men took the responsibility of teaching the children (remember that western society was very sexist then) which reflected the high priority they placed on education. Towns and territories on the American frontier started hiring single women to teach because (1) they could save money over hiring men, and (2) women were less likely to cause a fuss if a farmer decided to pull his kids out of school to work the harvest.

I would be willing to bet that the ratio of male to female teachers remained very high in Europe, while American society eventually started regarding teaching as "women's work." As a result, education still has a far lower priority in the US than in many other countries.

I'd allow you that .... if we were talking about Scotland. Since we're not, you have NO personal experience in the subject at hand, and therefore must make prejudiced opinions. Cultures differ. Religions differ. Religions of similar name are different in different cultures. Your hostility is little different from a child whose father was abusive assuming that all fathers are abusive.

Further evidence that your experience does not apply to the situation in the US.

Please explain to me how in God's name I'm not supposed to be insulted by that!

It's far too important to be left to one system to stagnate.

Or left wing ones.

Yes. It happens all the time. Again, and I'd appreciate it if you would read it aloud to yourself and maybe get someone else to read it aloud to you as well, so that it might finally sink in.

We are not Scotland. The US is a different culture. We do not experience the same things or in the same ways as you do.

Protestant students help Catholic schools survive

I use the anecdotes to try to clarify where I am coming from with regard to the opinions I hold. I have not at any time suggested the US is a microcosm of scotland you just seem to think I am suggesting it is, if it were it would be far more socialist in outlook. It's your loss mate not mine.

The point about Finland that you miss is not where the money is coming from but the fact education is state controlled in finland. you wonder why it's educational system seems to be superior to the US - one of the reasons is a uniform curriculum and standardised qualifications with exams and marking carried out by external assessors. The state system is so good private schools cannot really compete. It;'s actually the same in all the Scandinavian countries. I'm not trying to insult you and I'm sorry if I came across that way but you do seem not to want to accept factual evidence or even fact check it ourself when it conflicts with what you want to believe i.e. that a national curriculum and state controlled education rather than leaving it all to the private sector does actually produce good results - have a look at taiwan and Singapore as well

In my opinion for education to be a right it cannot be viewed as something that is subject to market forces and should be privatised for the simple reason that would result in the poor being excluded. I find the notion appalling and oppose it in everty way I can. If it was up to me I wouldn't end private schools in the UK but I would prevent any more academies or religious schools being allowed and better yet ban them altogether and make muslim mix with christian.

I am of the opinion that if you increase the number of religious schools in the US and in particular allow your right wing Christians the power you will start to see sectarianism. I also hope I am completely wrong, Christians can be friends in a secular society but if fundamentalists succeed in putting god in the centre of america the next arguments will be about whose god. Presumably ahso wanted people's opinions it's not obligatory we all agree. If you want to try and change my opinion please do so but are there any reasons why this is a good idea?

FBI make Christian militia arrests - Telegraph

Execute All Gays! RE: Local Pastor Calls For Death Of Queers & Homosexuals - YouTube

OK you say there is no problem with religious nutters in America and they are not dangerous I'll take your word for it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:28 pm

Accountable;1396213 wrote: LOL! You're so bigoted against religion that even when no evidence points toward religious guilt, you assume you must've missed it.Religion and the American Civil War

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:13 pm

Accountable;1396214 wrote: 1941I forgot the Nazis were christian. Bigotry is so unreliable. Lets not forget we didn't really want any part of that war.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:29 pm

Ahso!;1396250 wrote: I forgot the Nazis were christian. Bigotry is so unreliable. Lets not forget we didn't really want any part of that war.
Who is we? My dad's friends (he was 4F) were so anxious many enlisted with Canada, not being able to wait for us to get our act together. My dad tried 4 times to get in. I know there were isolationists, but I think many here wanted to be involved before Germany declared war on us.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:37 pm

AnneBoleyn;1396261 wrote: Who is we?Our political leaders.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:07 pm

gmc;1396237 wrote: I use the anecdotes to try to clarify where I am coming from with regard to the opinions I hold. I have not at any time suggested the US is a microcosm of scotland Anecdotes are not very useful if they don't apply. Don't try to tell me you weren't trying to measure America with a Scotland yardstick. It's the only experience you have and you made your judgment by it.

gmc;1396237 wrote: The point about Finland that you miss is not where the money is coming from but the fact education is state controlled in finland. you wonder why it's educational system seems to be superior to the US - one of the reasons is a uniform curriculum and standardised qualifications with exams and marking carried out by external assessors.If Finland was a part of the USA it would be #22 in population. Our education system is state run, that is, run by each state. Each state has its own uniform curriculum. We're different than you. We're bigger than you. Our system is not the centralized system that you have. Get over it.

The problem is not that Washington doesn't dictate every lesson to be taught in every school in the nation. That's styoooopid.

gmc;1396237 wrote: The state system is so good private schools cannot really compete.What does that mean? What does "good" mean in this instance? You can't say it's the performance of the students, because that is the effect, not the cause.

gmc;1396237 wrote: It;'s actually the same in all the Scandinavian countries. I'm not trying to insult you and I'm sorry if I came across that way but you do seem not to want to accept factual evidence or even fact check it ourself when it conflicts with what you want to believe i.e. that a national curriculum and state controlled education rather than leaving it all to the private sector does actually produce good results - have a look at taiwan and Singapore as wellStop being thick. Nobody is "leaving it all" to the private sector. Such hogwash makes it impossible to communicate with you.

gmc;1396237 wrote: In my opinion for education to be a right it cannot be viewed as something that is subject to market forces and should be privatised for the simple reason that would result in the poor being excluded. I find the notion appalling and oppose it in everty way I can.Then let me ease your mind. YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT THE POOR BEING EXCLUDED.

gmc;1396237 wrote: If it was up to me I wouldn't end private schools in the UK but I would prevent any more academies or religious schools being allowed and better yet ban them altogether and make muslim mix with christian. Yes, yes. Religion bad. Must destroy. Yada yada yada.

gmc;1396237 wrote: OK you say there is no problem with religious nutters in America and they are not dangerous I'll take your word for it.No you won't. You'll accept the anecdotes that fit your paradigm and ignore the empirical evidence.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:32 pm

Ahso!;1396241 wrote: Religion and the American Civil WarThis is actually a pretty good paper,thanks. Did you read it?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:14 pm

Accountable;1396292 wrote: This is actually a pretty good paper,thanks. Did you read it?Yes. I also read Richard Carwardine's Evangelicals and Politics in Antebellum America when it first came out.

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:26 pm

According to Carwardine, the waning of revivalist fervor led evangelical Protestants to ally with national political parties to further their social agendas. The political parties, in turn, made concentrated efforts to win the evangelical Protestant vote. Carwardine maintains that evangelical Protestants gave birth to ecclesiastical sectionalism, steered political discourse, and pressured politicians, thus leaving their mark on Whig and Republican politics.

Boy, does THAT sound familiar. Well, (except for the "Whig" part.)

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:27 am

posted by accountable

Anecdotes are not very useful if they don't apply. Don't try to tell me you weren't trying to measure America with a Scotland yardstick. It's the only experience you have and you made your judgment by it.

Which was rather the point I was making

I use the anecdotes to try to clarify where I am coming from with regard to the opinions I hold.

You tend to measure other countries with your own yardstick - we all do it. Obviously my opinions are coloured by my own experiences I've never claimed otherwise. . If you ask people in other countries what they think it's only to be expected they will have different opinions. Don't ask if you can't respect other people may have completely opposite points of view. American attitudes to healthcare for instance are hard to understand if you have grown up with a welfare state.

f Finland was a part of the USA it would be #22 in population. Our education system is state run, that is, run by each state. Each state has its own uniform curriculum. We're different than you. We're bigger than you. Our system is not the centralized system that you have. Get over it.

The problem is not that Washington doesn't dictate every lesson to be taught in every school in the nation. That's styoooopid.

You asked the question why is finnish education part of the answer is national curriculum and independently assessed external exams. Social democratic government tend to view education as a means of overcoming the divisions in society - equality of opportunity and all that. Come to that we could do with taking a few lessons from the Scandinavian countries and other european nations. Our politicians tend to use education as a political football the current lot seem determined to take us back the the 18th century. As it happens our education system is a ls less centralised than you seem to think, local authorities are then iones that determine what happens in their regions, the scots and English systems are actually very different - but I won't go there.

What does that mean? What does "good" mean in this instance? You can't say it's the performance of the students, because that is the effect, not the cause.

The state system is so good that private schools cannot offer enough added value that people would be preprepared to take pay for them. It's the same in sweden and denmark.

Stop being thick. Nobody is "leaving it all" to the private sector. Such hogwash makes it impossible to communicate with you.

You do seem to have a rather powerful political lobby that wants everything to be in private hands else why are they even talking about this in Louisiana.

Then let me ease your mind. YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT THE POOR BEING EXCLUDED.

I hope I am but in my opinion this will make divisions in society even worse than they are. Add religion and race in to the mix and you may have a problem.

NB:o·pin·ion

[uh-pin-yuhn]

noun

1.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2.

a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

You don't have to agree with me. presumably ahso wondered what people thought about it.

No you won't. You'll accept the anecdotes that fit your paradigm and ignore the empirical evidence.

You're probably right there, the thing is it's what people like these can achieve before they are stopped, time and time again they try to shape society to what they think is the "right" way of things. Controlling education is one of the best ways to do it. I'm well aware that may be an extreme viewpoint but that is why I look askance at religious education. I hope the states never has the kind of sectarianism we have had in europe but IMO it would be naive to think you couldn't. Kennedy got a lot of opposition for his Catholicism and he is so far as i am aware the only catholic president you have ever had. What do Christians think of Romney as a mormon running the place? issue .non/issue

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:43 pm

This article in Salon is relevant. It discusses the curriculum used by some of the schools that will be getting the education money. I especially like the part about the Loch Ness Monster disproving evolution and how dinosaurs are still on earth.

Shocking Christian school textbooks - AlterNet - Salon.com

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:24 pm

Wandrin;1397043 wrote: This article in Salon is relevant. It discusses the curriculum used by some of the schools that will be getting the education money. I especially like the part about the Loch Ness Monster disproving evolution and how dinosaurs are still on earth.

Shocking Christian school textbooks - AlterNet - Salon.comYeah, well, you know, those parents who take their kids out of public education and place them into religious education at the taxpayer's expense are going to be real pissed off when their kids don't get a public education at those private religious schools.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:33 pm

Yup. And then the school will either change or lose the students ... and the funding that goes with them.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:29 am

Accountable;1397046 wrote: Yup. And then the school will either change or lose the students ... and the funding that goes with them.

This story was in today's New York Daily News:

"Loch Ness Monster seen as real dinosaur in biology books taught in Louisiana school

The startling claim about Nessie’s authenticity is reportedly made to bolster creationism within the textbook. The Loch Ness Monster is described as a type of dinosaur, and if dinosaurs and man co-exist, then presumably there would be holes in the scientific argument for evolution."

Read more: Loch Ness Monster seen as real dinosaur in biology books taught in Louisiana school - NY Daily News

So how many more morons will we create in the meantime? How low does education sink while LA enjoys it's experiment?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:31 am

AnneBoleyn;1397832 wrote: This story was in today's New York Daily News:

"Loch Ness Monster seen as real dinosaur in biology books taught in Louisiana school

The startling claim about Nessie’s authenticity is reportedly made to bolster creationism within the textbook. The Loch Ness Monster is described as a type of dinosaur, and if dinosaurs and man co-exist, then presumably there would be holes in the scientific argument for evolution."

Read more: Loch Ness Monster seen as real dinosaur in biology books*taught in Louisiana school* - NY Daily News

So how many more morons will we create in the meantime? How low does education sink while LA enjoys it's experiment?

You beat me to it. original article

Loch Ness monster cited by US schools as evidence that evolution is myth - Odd - Scotsman.com

On the upside it might be good for tourism

Sometimes for the good of society as a whole you need to curb the activities of the Blessed gullible. It's hard enough not to laugh when American tourists ask the way to Brigadoon.

Help us to preserve the remaining wild haggis of Scotland

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:38 am

AnneBoleyn;1397832 wrote: This story was in today's New York Daily News:

"Loch Ness Monster seen as real dinosaur in biology books taught in Louisiana school

The startling claim about Nessie’s authenticity is reportedly made to bolster creationism within the textbook. The Loch Ness Monster is described as a type of dinosaur, and if dinosaurs and man co-exist, then presumably there would be holes in the scientific argument for evolution."

Read more: Loch Ness Monster seen as real dinosaur in biology books*taught in Louisiana school* - NY Daily News

So how many more morons will we create in the meantime? How low does education sink while LA enjoys it's experiment?

Why didn't they just go with alligators or crocodiles as their dinosaurs? Seems like that would be a little easier sell.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:07 pm

YZGI;1397836 wrote: Why didn't they just go with alligators or crocodiles as their dinosaurs? Seems like that would be a little easier sell.
Dude, where ya been? Alligators & crocs are reptiles. The latest I heard was that dinosaurs were ancestors to birds.

Developmental Biology 9e Online: Did Birds Evolve from the Dinosaurs?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:19 pm

YZGI;1397836 wrote: Why didn't they just go with alligators or crocodiles as their dinosaurs? Seems like that would be a little easier sell.
They don't want easy, they want impossible. Test of faith.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:20 pm

gmc: It's hard enough not to laugh when American tourists ask the way to Brigadoon.

Aw, c'mon. Only Americans ask that?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:34 pm

Accountable;1397842 wrote: Dude, where ya been? Alligators & crocs are reptiles. The latest I heard was that dinosaurs were ancestors to birds.

Developmental Biology 9e Online: Did Birds Evolve from the Dinosaurs?

I gotta go back to just being a wise ass.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:13 pm

Birds evolved from *some* dinosaurs. That doesn't mean that crocodiles and alligators didn't as well.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:30 pm

I know of a few people who might have evolved from dinosaurs.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:23 pm

SnoozeAgain;1397852 wrote: Birds evolved from *some* dinosaurs. That doesn't mean that crocodiles and alligators didn't as well.
:yh_ooooo BLASPHEMY!

:yh_silent Burn her!

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:09 pm

According to the Texas state GOP platform, they want to ban the teaching of "critical thinking skills" in public schools because they "focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.” Perhaps Louisiana could do that too, to get around some of those pesky curriculum problems.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:25 pm

Wandrin;1397864 wrote: According to the Texas state GOP platform, they want to ban the teaching of "critical thinking skills" in public schools because they "focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.” Perhaps Louisiana could do that too, to get around some of those pesky curriculum problems.
I for one would really appreciate a link when you make such announcements. It would at least give me a place to start to read up on it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:31 pm

Straight from the source:

http://www.tfn.org/site/DocServer/2012- ... docID=3201

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Basic Standards – We favor improving the quality of education for all students, including those with special needs. We support a return to the traditional basics of reading, writing, arithmetic, and citizenship with sufficient discipline to ensure learning and quality educational assessment.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:07 pm

Accountable;1397865 wrote: I for one would really appreciate a link when you make such announcements. It would at least give me a place to start to read up on it.

Oops. Sorry about that.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:12 am

Wandrin;1397872 wrote: Oops. Sorry about that.:yh_hugs

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can't believe they are so open and blatant about it. I figured it would be some kind of attorney-speak phrasing that someone had interpreted/spun. But there it is, plain and simple.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:37 am

Accountable;1397890 wrote: :yh_hugs

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can't believe they are so open and blatant about it. I figured it would be some kind of attorney-speak phrasing that someone had interpreted/spun. But there it is, plain and simple.

Why would they not be? They see nothing wrong with with it - Most advocates of religious education do so from much the same standpoint.

posted by anneboelyn

gmc: It's hard enough not to laugh when American tourists ask the way to Brigadoon.

Aw, c'mon. Only Americans ask that?

Ever since they remade greyfriars bobby in 2005 we now have tourists insisting they put up a statue of the wrong type of dog. Bad enough they think we all wear kilts and paint our faces blue.

Google Image Result for http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_buildings ... 030921.jpg

Edinburgh-Royal Mile-Gretfriar's Bobby

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:40 am

gmc;1397891 wrote: Why would they not be? They see nothing wrong with with it - Most advocates of religious education do so from much the same standpoint.

posted by anneboelyn

Ever since they remade greyfriars bobby in 2005 we now have tourists insisting they put up a statue of the wrong type of dog. Bad enough they think we all wear kilts and paint our faces blue.

Google Image Result for http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_buildings ... 030921.jpg

Edinburgh-Royal Mile-Gretfriar's Bobby

If not blue, then what color do you paint your faces?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:10 am

And put your kilt back on! That's indecent.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:54 am

Accountable;1397895 wrote: And put your kilt back on! That's indecent.

The laughter and envy of other nations we regard with equal indifference.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:37 am

gmc;1397915 wrote: The laughter and envy of other nations we regard with equal indifference.
:yh_rotfl :yh_worshp