Louisiana Privatizing Education

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:15 am

What do you think?

(Reuters) - Louisiana is embarking on the nation's boldest experiment in privatizing public education, with the state preparing to shift tens of millions in tax dollars out of the public schools to pay private industry, businesses owners and church pastors to educate children.
Louisiana's bold bid to privatize schools | Reuters

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:05 am

The sum, presumably, is

Total Schools Budget + Efficiency Savings + Additional Parental Contribution - Shareholder Dividend - Cost Of Schools = 0

I'd suspect "Additional Parental Contribution" is by definition zero or it wouldn't be privatized public education, it would be the public voucher system going to newly privatized schools. Public vouchers seem to have been off the agenda ever since they were first suggested.

The aim is to reduce Total Schools Budget?

If Efficiency Savings exceeds Shareholder Dividend then they can do that without bringing down the Cost Of Schools (or the cost of educating each child through the system, it's the same thing).

It's more likely, in practice, they'll trim the Cost Of Schools to generate their Shareholder Dividend.

Shareholder Dividend is zero if it's a not-for-profit private concern, is that an option?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:16 am

Is this by any chance going to allow the religious right to set the curriculum in a whole lot of new faith schools? Says he going all conspiracy theory on your ass.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:46 am

This is the beauty of the American system that would be destroyed by those who want to centralize power & policy in Washington. Fifty grand experiments on how to make it better. If Louisiana's idea results in higher standardized test scores, then the rest of the country benefits by adopting & adapting it to fit their own situations. If the idea fails, then the rest of the country benefits by not having to implement a permanent national program only to find out that it doesn't work.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:58 am

Officials have not estimated the price tag of these programs but expect the state will save money in the long run, because they believe the private sector can educate kids more cheaply than public schools.

Whether those savings will materialize is unclear.

By law, the value of each voucher can't exceed the sum the state would spend educating that child in public school -- on average, $8,800 a year. Small private schools often charge as little as $3,000 to $5,000 a year.

Yet at some private schools with low tuition, administrators contacted by Reuters said they would also ask the state to cover additional, unspecified fees, which would bring the cost to taxpayers close to the $8,800 cap. The law requires the state to cover both tuition and fees.

I predict the price of grade school education will skyrocket to match the maximum the state will pay.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:03 am

Accountable;1395440 wrote: This is the beauty of the American system that would be destroyed by those who want to centralize power & policy in Washington. Fifty grand experiments on how to make it better. If Louisiana's idea results in higher standardized test scores, then the rest of the country benefits by adopting & adapting it to fit their own situations. If the idea fails, then the rest of the country benefits by not having to implement a permanent national program only to find out that it doesn't work.

Somehow, I don't see higher test scores being a real concern:

The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:28 am

As long as the math test require the counting of fish or blessing all should be fine.

I liked the response from the lady who said she didn't want to confuse the children regarding evolutionary theory. Like a sometime loving but mostly vengeful God isn't confusing enough.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:32 am

I wonder if the taxpayers in La are going to demand that the state assure them that none of their personal school taxes goes to religious education. That was the right's argument on welfare and abortion.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:36 am

So, religious anti-science and anti-fact indoctrination will be substituted for actual education? How many years of remedial education will be required if a student actually wants to attend a good college? Will this also spawn special religious colleges that have the same lowered standards? Is the attempt to make a high school diploma or college degree worthless?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:17 am

LarsMac;1395444 wrote: Somehow, I don't see higher test scores being a real concern:
Savings is the primary concern, but they're not going to get it. However, if this experiment shows another state that one or two pieces can be used to improve their system, then some good is accomplished. LA is at or near the bottom in terms of education in America already, so any improvement would be welcome. They are making changes to try this; they can likewise make changes when they find flaws. The haters in this thread won't see that but it doesn't make it less true.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:34 am

Keep this up and in ten years or so america will be a third world country.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:05 am

People believe that kind of hyperbole without thinking, certainly without investigating its veracity. That's evident in several posts in this thread.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:22 pm

I have a relative who teaches at a religious school. She teaches her kids that dinosaurs couldn't possibly existed because they are not mentioned in the Bible. The dinosaur fossils that are on display in museums are an elaborate hoax by satanists/humanists to lead people away from the truth, she teaches. The earth is 6,000 years old and carbon dating evidence that proves otherwise is part of a conspiracy. Evolution is also a conspiracy, as is global climate change. Noah sailed to every continent and put two of every species into his ark and anyone who questions his ability to fit them all in a boat of the time is evil. Did you know that God constantly creates oil underground for man's use?

I doubt that graduates of such a school system could gain admittance to a good college without a lot of remedial work.

If Louisiana is saying that an education in a school such as this is equal to a good education and that the taxpayers should pay for such indoctrination, then I don't see this as a good thing.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:25 pm

Accountable;1395454 wrote: Savings is the primary concern, but they're not going to get it. However, if this experiment shows another state that one or two pieces can be used to improve their system, then some good is accomplished. LA is at or near the bottom in terms of education in America already, so any improvement would be welcome. They are making changes to try this; they can likewise make changes when they find flaws. The haters in this thread won't see that but it doesn't make it less true.Surely we've learned one or two things about education over the years. One such lesson would be that we know the religious have been trying to get more of a footing in the system which this affords them. We know that it's best to teach fact instead of religious myth as science and when those officials of religious institutions make statements suggesting religious creationism will usurp recognized science, that's a problem that's already been established.

I don't have a problem trying different methods of teaching, however, what's happening in Louisiana is not that. It's not worth sacrificing a generation of people's education when we already know the outcome even if it is only one state's generation, and even though it's Louisiana.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:14 pm

Such phobia about religion. Any mention of anything religious and the banshees come out of the woodwork.

How do you guys sleep at night knowing there's a religious nut out there that might kill you in ritual sacrifice??

Phucking bigots.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:31 pm

Accountable;1395513 wrote: Such phobia about religion. Any mention of anything religious and the banshees come out of the woodwork.

How do you guys sleep at night knowing there's a religious nut out there that might kill you in ritual sacrifice??

Phucking bigots.

I was relating what a relative of mine teaches her kids in one specific school, not condemning religion. Parents have a right to see that their children are educated in any way that they choose, but don't tell me that a child who is taught that science is a lie and part of a conspiracy are getting a quality education to prepare them for Harvard or Stanford.

There is another aspect of for-profit schools that I find troubling. There is ample data available for the recent influx of for-profit colleges to compare the quality of the education and the cost.

Demographics Do Not Explain For-Profits' Shortcomings on Student-Success Measures, GAO Says - Government - The Chronicle of Higher Education

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/forprofitpaper.pdf

FRONTLINE: college, inc. | PBS

Educating Sergeant Pantzke - Video | FRONTLINE | PBS

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:37 pm

Wandrin;1395448 wrote: So, religious anti-science and anti-fact indoctrination will be substituted for actual education? How many years of remedial education will be required if a student actually wants to attend a good college? Will this also spawn special religious colleges that have the same lowered standards? Is the attempt to make a high school diploma or college degree worthless?

Wandrin;1395514 wrote: I was relating what a relative of mine teaches her kids in one specific school, not condemning religion.
Since you're so fond of throwing bombs, you ought to pay attentions of what bombs you throw.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:55 pm

Accountable;1395517 wrote: Since you're so fond of throwing bombs, you ought to pay attentions of what bombs you throw.

I'm not sure that I understand, since it was certainly not my intent to "throw bombs".

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:25 am

Accountable;1395440 wrote: If Louisiana's idea results in higher standardized test scores Out of interest, how long does the experiment need to run uninterrupted by other variables before the result - better or worse scores attributable to privatizing - can be considered significant? Ten years? Fifteen? Twenty?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:30 am

Accountable;1395513 wrote: Such phobia about religion. Any mention of anything religious and the banshees come out of the woodwork.

How do you guys sleep at night knowing there's a religious nut out there that might kill you in ritual sacrifice??

Phucking bigots.

With good reason. Religion tears apart communities and can destroy whole countries. When you preach your faith is the only true one and all else are going to hell there is only ever going to be one outcome if they become too powerful at it's worst it leads to open warfare. Just ask anyone living in kosovo or lebanon, iran, pakistan, northern ireland, iran who isn't religious who they blame for the misery. Will these schools allow mixed race classes? How will they teat anyone who doesn't fit the social norms or who rejects the religion will they be expelled? Maybe not to begin with but just give it a few years - after all if they are private institutions they can do what they like never mind who is paying for them.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:31 am

Accountable;1395513 wrote: Such phobia about religion. Any mention of anything religious and the banshees come out of the woodwork.I'm not sure that's a fair observation. Religion's just one instance of a whole range of topics where one can distinguish between "this works for me" - which is "good practice" on the part of the speaker - and "what you do is wrong" - which is "bad practice" on the part of the speaker. Wiping out bad practice is hygienic.

You describe pointing out bad practice as bigotry, it's anything but. Pointing it out is a reaction, not an attack. The error is on the part of the person or group claiming that "what you do is wrong" especially when they then take steps to change others as their notion of remedial action. I'm sure you get my drift, it applies to religious fundamentalists just as much as to your Washington government. Sometimes the two seem difficult to distinguish.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:00 am

Accountable;1395462 wrote: People believe that kind of hyperbole without thinking, certainly without investigating its veracity. That's evident in several posts in this thread.

Many people accept religion without thinking - indeed suspending reason is essential to be religious.

Such phobia about religion. Any mention of anything religious and the banshees come out of the woodwork.

How do you guys sleep at night knowing there's a religious nut out there that might kill you in ritual sacrifice??

Phucking bigots.

You mean like al qaeda?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:06 am

gmc;1395529 wrote: Many people accept religion without thinking - indeed suspending reason is essential to be religious.
Many people also condemn without thinking entire communities, institutions, and attempts to improve a segment of society simply because some support comes from religious organizations. Some of these same people elect proven liars and known criminals into powerful political positions rationalizing that their affiliation with a particular party makes them acceptable.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:50 am

Accountable;1395535 wrote: Many people also condemn without thinking entire communities, institutions, and attempts to improve a segment of society simply because some support comes from religious organizations. Some of these same people elect proven liars and known criminals into powerful political positions rationalizing that their affiliation with a particular party makes them acceptable.

Do you know, I prefer that to crusading.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:39 am

The article also had an interesting point. It mentioned the small private schools who charge between $3,000-$5,000 per year, who are now coming up with all sorts of extra fees and charges to get the full $8,800 from the state. This parallels what the GAO found in for-profit colleges, who adjusted their fees to match the max that the GI Bill or student loans would cover.

There was an interesting article in today's Salon about one of the for-profit colleges.

America's worst colleges - Student Loan Debt - Salon.com

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:18 am

spot;1395539 wrote: Do you know, I prefer that to crusading.
Snipers usually have a target. What was your snipe aimed at?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:25 am

Wandrin;1395558 wrote: The article also had an interesting point. It mentioned the small private schools who charge between $3,000-$5,000 per year, who are now coming up with all sorts of extra fees and charges to get the full $8,800 from the state. This parallels what the GAO found in for-profit colleges, who adjusted their fees to match the max that the GI Bill or student loans would cover.
Keep that in mind when voting for Obamacare. When bottomless pockets get involved, market forces lose their power to keep prices reasonable.

If my memory serves, I believe it was Belgium that attached their spending to the pupil, rather than the school. Parents could send their students to any school they chose, and the set amount followed the kid. I like that system because if the schools don't keep the parents happy then they lose the kid ... and the money.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:51 pm

Accountable;1395535 wrote: Many people also condemn without thinking entire communities, institutions, and attempts to improve a segment of society simply because some support comes from religious organizations. Some of these same people elect proven liars and known criminals into powerful political positions rationalizing that their affiliation with a particular party makes them acceptable.

I ahve good reason to be wary of religious schools. I suspect their motives are not for the best, sadly such concerns are too often borne out by the reality. Would you be so ready to accept the idea if it also allowed madrassas to become part and parcel of the american landscape - bet a lot of those good christians would object.

While it is true many crooks get elected they do not claim to be inspired by the divine and criticising them is not seen as an attack on their religion. Education is a right and is essential for the good of society that it is available to all, it is also essential for a functioning capitalist society that the workforce be educated - it's just too important to be left in the hands of for profit education bodies. Have a look at what Adam Smith had to say about it - Good education, a healthy workforce and good wages are essential for a capitalist economy to succeed.

It's sad but i really see america going backwards over the next few years if this kind of thing continues. Will you ever get back to a capitalist economy do you think? We have similar issues but more chance I think of resolving them.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:06 pm

gmc;1395593 wrote: I ahve good reason to be wary of religious schools. I suspect their motives are not for the best, sadly such concerns are too often borne out by the reality. Would you be so ready to accept the idea if it also allowed madrassas to become part and parcel of the american landscape - bet a lot of those good christians would object.I'm sure they would. I wouldn't.

gmc;1395593 wrote: While it is true many crooks get elected they do not claim to be inspired by the divine and criticising them is not seen as an attack on their religion.You make the mistake of thinking all the world is Scotland. Newt Gingrich and John Edwards both claim to be inspired by the divine, claim that all their shortcomings are forgiven, and have plenty of justification to believe that people of myriad religious persuasions would still vote for them.

gmc;1395593 wrote: Education is a right and is essential for the good of society that it is available to all, it is also essential for a functioning capitalist society that the workforce be educated - it's just too important to be left in the hands of for profit education bodies.It's too important to allow prejudice to sway decisions. You and others in this thread are condemning the entire program based only on the most extreme negative stereotypes of religion. That makes you and the others bigots.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:25 pm

Accountable;1395594 wrote: It's too important to allow prejudice to sway decisions. You and others in this thread are condemning the entire program based only on the most extreme negative stereotypes of religion. That makes you and the others bigots.If the program can be tweaked and fixed then no I'm not condemning it, if however, that is not the case then yes I am condemning the entire program. It's completely up to the designers of the program whether or not it should be condemned altogether.

It's a fact that the religious element involved in the political process are the more aggressive type, and it's that element that I'm talking about. If you don't know that then you're right, you are naive.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:33 pm

It's too important to allow prejudice to sway decisions. You and others in this thread are condemning the entire program based only on the most extreme negative stereotypes of religion. That makes you and the others bigots.

Well, no. It makes us nervous, not bigots. The American Theocratic Right has a very scary reputation in the UK, and the idea of it getting its crazed mitts on Education and imposing Wandrins' relative's curriculum on them makes the hair stand up on the back of the neck. And not in a good way. I imagine we - I - am overreacting a bit with that response. Please tell me I am!

We have a lot of very good Church of England Schools here, so I know it can be done (with gmc's caveat that it can go very wrong), but I trust the Church of England in a way I do not trust the American Religious Right. And if it goes wrong, that's a lot of kids whose education - life, even - you've wrecked in the name of an experiment.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:49 pm

Accountable;1395575 wrote: Snipers usually have a target. What was your snipe aimed at?

Fundamentalist Christians crusading, of course. It's their Manifest Destiny, isn't it?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Clodhopper;1395596 wrote: Well, no. It makes us nervous, not bigots.While your prejudice makes you nervous, gmc's has prompted wholesale condemnation.

Clodhopper;1395596 wrote: The American Theocratic Right has a very scary reputation in the UK, and the idea of it getting its crazed mitts on Education and imposing Wandrins' relative's curriculum on them makes the hair stand up on the back of the neck. And not in a good way. I imagine we - I - am overreacting a bit with that response. Please tell me I am!Of course you are! And you should be ashamed to allow your prejudice and a complete stranger's unconfirmed anecdote to have such a powerful influence over you, when your own personal experience with religious institutions' impacting religion is not remotely similar.

Clodhopper;1395596 wrote: We have a lot of very good Church of England Schools here, so I know it can be done (with gmc's caveat that it can go very wrong), but I trust the Church of England in a way I do not trust the American Religious Right. And if it goes wrong, that's a lot of kids whose education - life, even - you've wrecked in the name of an experiment.
Life is an experiment. If we listened only to our prejudices when making judgments, we would never evolve socially. If we all waited for someone else to try something first, nothing would ever be tried.

Holy Crap! I'm surprised the UK hasn't nuked the ME by now purely in the name of safety, considering the sentiments displayed here.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:30 pm

Accountable;1395604 wrote: Holy Crap! I'm surprised the UK hasn't nuked the ME by now purely in the name of safety, considering the sentiments displayed here.Religious fundamentalism has more impact on the political process of the US than it does in Iran, the only reason you can't accept that is partisan prejudice on your part, fed to a large extent by your knee-jerk Rah Rah domestic news outlets following the government line about foreign affairs.

The extent to which religious conformity is a sine qua non for holding representative office in the US is disgusting. I take it you'd describe it as non-existent, trivial or just plain decent respect for the Founding Fathers.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:38 pm

In a for-profit school, the primary goal is to produce a profit for the stockholders. The quality of the "product" will be just enough to compete successfully in the marketplace to gain those profits. I doubt that this model will work well in education. It has not worked well for college level education, although it has proved profitable and is therefore considered a success by the shareholders.

I agree that the public school system needs a fresh approach. In fact, I find the school curriculum to be seriously flawed, but that's a different topic.

There are numerous problems with a for-profit education system replacing public schools. In the smaller towns, where the public schools are to be shut down, while I'm sure that many religious schools will pop up, what about the parents who don't want to send their kids to one of those religious schools? How far will their kids have to travel each day to find a school with a balanced curriculum or one that won't push only one religious belief system? Will the transportation costs be born by the parents? Will there really be choice in the smaller communities where the majority would be happy with religious schools?

How does the state plan to evaluate the quality of education provided to the children? Will the state keep the education credentials requirements for teachers that it already has, or lower them to suit the religious schools?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:43 pm

Wandrin;1395608 wrote: In a for-profit school, the primary goal is to produce a profit for the stockholders. The quality of the "product" will be just enough to compete successfully in the marketplace to gain those profits. I doubt that this model will work well in education. It has not worked well for college level education, although it has proved profitable and is therefore considered a success by the shareholders."... produce a profit for the owner(s)," not necessarily stockholders, but you're very close. It's actually to maximize profits. But try to look at your statement objectively.

* What is the "product"? Is it the quality of books? Style of teaching? Result on a standardized test?

* And who determines the quality? Ideally, it would be the parents - who would pull their kid and funds when they find the "product" less than they can get elsewhere - and the state BOE - which apparently isn't adequate to watch over even the schools they currently have. I haven't read enough of this proposal to know the answer in this particular instance.

* The way you phrased "The quality of the 'product' will be just enough to compete successfully in the marketplace to gain those profits" makes it clear you've made up your mind, but consider: This product presumably has a fixed price, meaning that the parent doesn't save anything by going to a cheaper place because the state is paying the voucher. If you take two competitors, each of whom only want enough quality to stay competitive, each would improve their own quality at least +1 above the other, which would force the other to improve, and so on. So to make the quality of the 'product' just good enough to compete would still result in continuous improvement, lest the school lose business.

* The difference between the college model and this one is that the price would be fixed by and large at the limit of the voucher.

Wandrin;1395608 wrote: I agree that the public school system needs a fresh approach. In fact, I find the school curriculum to be seriously flawed, but that's a different topic.Indeed. Washington politicians have taken control of what always has been, and by rights should be, a state/local matter. One size cannot fit all. When we get into this conversation remind me to vent about NCLB. :-5

Wandrin;1395608 wrote: There are numerous problems with a for-profit education system replacing public schools. In the smaller towns, where the public schools are to be shut down, while I'm sure that many religious schools will pop up, what about the parents who don't want to send their kids to one of those religious schools? How far will their kids have to travel each day to find a school with a balanced curriculum or one that won't push only one religious belief system? Will the transportation costs be born by the parents? Will there really be choice in the smaller communities where the majority would be happy with religious schools?I missed the mention of closing public schools. Did you read another story you could link? Without that information, the rest of your questions seem a bit silly.

Wandrin;1395608 wrote: How does the state plan to evaluate the quality of education provided to the children? I believe federal law requires standardized tests. I know that before Washington took over, Louisiana had standardized testing. Do you have any real reason to believe that would change?

Wandrin;1395608 wrote: Will the state keep the education credentials requirements for teachers that it already has, or lower them to suit the religious schools?Careful, your bigotry's showing again. :yh_shame

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:20 pm

Accountable;1395611 wrote: Careful, your bigotry's showing again. :yh_shame

Privatizing is one issue. But have you looked at the religious "educational" materials? Look at Pahu's epic post for an example. There's a lot of incoherent hogwash presented as science.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:53 am

While your prejudice makes you nervous, gmc's has prompted wholesale condemnation.

I think there is a need to be a bit more careful with the word "prejudice". The online dictionary came up with this:

1.

a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

b. A preconceived preference or idea.

2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.

3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.

Since we've lived with the Northern Irish Troubles most of our lives, gmc grew up in communities where sectarian strife was and sometimes still is all too common, and our history itself warns of the dangers of religious extremism from Bloody Mary onwards it is a bit hard to call our opinions prejudiced. Wrong possibly, overreacting maybe, but not irrational, not when people call eachother Prods and Taigs and we've just, perhaps, stopped the actual killing.

Sure, what you are talking of is not exactly the same. But the dangers ARE there and we know quite a bit about them. Some of us, anyway. We are not predisposed to regard attempts by religious extremists to put a Creationist agenda at the heart of education favourably. True.

If these schools turn into beacons of educational best practice I will applaud. But if they turn into Wandrin's relative's sort of place we will certainly regard our alarm as justified.

Of course you are! And you should be ashamed to allow your prejudice and a complete stranger's unconfirmed anecdote to have such a powerful influence over you, when your own personal experience with religious institutions' impacting religion is not remotely similar.

Unless and until I have a reason to do otherwise, I regard people's statements of fact as honest. So when Wandrin says that his relative teaches that way, I basically believe him. Or her. And I really didn't know it had got that bad already.

Secondly, my personal experience of religion has been positive, but I know my history and Liverpool in the 1950s, Glasgow in the '60s and '70s and now with the problems of integration and the new Islamic threat. I read the papers and see the photos of bomb wrecked bloodstained streets and the BBC reports of the endless funerals and reckon I've a good idea of where religious extremism leads. Putting religious extremism into schools is a big, big step down that path. And from the little I've gathered, there is nothing to stop that happening. And all religions know the importance of indoctrinating the young.

Holy Crap! I'm surprised the UK hasn't nuked the ME by now purely in the name of safety, considering the sentiments displayed here.

:wah: That's not a bad description of the reasons the UK joined the US against Saddam Hussein and supports the war on Al Qaeda. Mostly. I think.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:32 am

The US is already way, way down on educational 'achievements':

Global grade: How do U.S. students compare? - Academic skills | GreatSchools

I think the rest of the world has the right to be alarmed to hear that the religious right are going to usurp our educational system and dumb down the country more than it already is. Yes, that's my opinion and I freely admit to being biased because I can see what these fruitcakes are attempting to do to our country. I've talked to people that believed everything that Wandrin's relative is teaching in class and I can certainly see that element trying to 'teach' that to our country's children. Who in their right mind would want some illiterate dimwit bully in charge of the vast majority of weaponry on the planet?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:52 am

Accountable;1395611 wrote: Careful, your bigotry's showing again.Where do you get off saying something like this when some of the christian school officials interviewed for the article have said flat out that they are not going to teach evolutionary theory? It appears you do not have an appreciation for the subject. What has been becoming more clear on an almost daily basis is how evolutionary theory turns out to be the core of understanding many other subjects including psychology, sociology, religion and others.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:52 am

Okay, for all you paranoid religious bigots (who, btw are just as guilty, hate-filled, and disgusting to me as racists and homophobes) here is some actual factual information you can ignore, rather than biased innuendo and single-instance anecdotes to feed your prejudices.

Graduation Requirements - Louisiana Department of Education - These are the requirements for graduation from high school in Louisiana. Notice that biology is required in all curricula. (But, Acc, how do we know that the dangerous religious bible-thumpin' evangelist "teachers" are teaching what they're supposed to, rather than indoctrinating the poor children with the subversive lies and making them a pack of bloodthirsty killers?)

Testing - Louisiana Department of Education - This link explains Louisiana's standardized testing system. Minimum scores are required, in addition to passing the classes, to qualify for graduation. What do they test?

Grade-Level Expectations - Louisiana Department of Education - This link explains Louisiana's educational expectations at every grade level. I did a search for the word "evolution" and you can all comfortably ignore the fact that knowledge of traditional Darwinian evolution is a requirement to pass Biology, which is required in all curricula. Evolution of the known universe, including the Big Bang theory is also required material. Oddly enough, I couldn't find one mention of Adam, Eve, God, or Intelligent Design in any of the science, World Geography, or World History PDFs.

Yes, I understand. This is Louisiana we're talking about, and we all know what toothless lying religious zealots they are, every single one of them. So of course these official web pages are just for public consumption and have no bearing at all on what really goes on in their schools.

Phuck you all. It is not religion that destroys society. It is bigotry.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:26 am

If I understand correctly biology is offered in tenth grade, is that right? So explain to me how or why any tenth grader who has been brought through a religious education up until then will have any appreciation for anything with the name Darwin attached to it when the administrators have said out right they themselves do not recognize evolutionary theory as legitimate science? By the time 10th grade rolls around prejudices have already been formed from misinformation and plain ignorance.

Tax money should not be allocated for Sunday school disguised as elementary education. It's that simple. Fix that part and I'm on board. Not that that matters. Louisiana's religious right-wing appears to have already won this round and that's too bad for everyone else, especially the kids.

Incidentally, it appears you don't understand much of my concerns regarding this at all.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:42 am

I forgot to mention something above and that is that establishing the fundamental framework of evolutionary theory by using it's language often early on in life would add to the later absorption of the biological information yet to come, not to mention all the other subjects that evolutionary theory compliment.

eta: BTW, some terms you might be better off searching for is "natural selection" and "speciation". See if they show up and if they do check for how they are defined.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:53 am

Accountable;1395626 wrote: Okay, for all you paranoid religious bigots (who, btw are just as guilty, hate-filled, and disgusting to me as racists and homophobes)

You're seriously baffled, mate. You just shut your eyes and wish it was all light and happiness. This is abstracted from List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Just how homophobic does a church have to be for it to qualify for you?

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is opposed to same-gender sexual practices and relationships

The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest of the Baptist denominations and the largest Protestant group in the U.S., considers same-gender sexual behavior to be sinful

The American Baptist Churches USA (ABCUSA) officially regards homosexual conduct "as incompatible with Biblical teaching"

the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. does not allow its clergy to officiate at ceremonies for same-sex unions

The Christian Reformed Church in North America has maintained the stance since the 1970s that homosexuality is the direct result of a sinful world much like any other sin. Homosexuality should be discouraged and the Church should show compassion for homosexuals like they would for any other sinner. Further, the Church should do everything in its power to help homosexuals see "the error of their ways" and to help repair the brokenness of sin.

Congregations of the Church of Christ... openly gay and lesbian persons will find it difficult to find a congregation willing to include them in church life if they are unrepentant of what the church considers an ungodly lifestyle.

Jehovah's Witnesses consider same-sex sexual activity to be sinful, but recognize that some people may be prone to homosexuality, including members of their congregation. Members are required to abstain from any homosexual behavior, which is listed as a serious sin.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... Homosexual activity is considered a serious sin on par or greater than other sexual activity outside of a legal, heterosexual marriage.

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LC-MS), the second largest Lutheran church in the United States at 2.4 million members, does not ordain homosexuals.

The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), the third largest Lutheran church in the United States at 395,947 members, does not ordain homosexuals.

I congratulate The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the largest Lutheran church body in the United States, which on 21 August 2009 voted 559 to 451 in favor of allowing non-celibate gays to become ordained ministers. They are a straw in the wind compared to the rest of their bible-literalist compatriots.

And I've not even mentioned the Roman Catholics.

Homophobia would be comparatively non-existent and ineffectual were it not for the continued entrenched fundamentalist dogmatic insistence by the world's major religious denominations - Muslim, Hindu, Latter-Day-Saint and Christian - that each uniquely possesses God's Revealed Truth and that (among other things) it's homophobic.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:48 am

Ahso!;1395628 wrote: Incidentally, it appears you don't understand much of my concerns regarding this at all.
Of course I do. Religion BAD! Must be destroyed!

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:49 am

Okay, for all you paranoid religious bigots (who, btw are just as guilty, hate-filled, and disgusting to me as racists and homophobes) here is some actual factual information you can ignore, rather than biased innuendo and single-instance anecdotes to feed your prejudices.

Graduation Requirements - Louisiana Department of Education - These are the requirements for graduation from high school in Louisiana. Notice that biology is required in all curricula. (But, Acc, how do we know that the dangerous religious bible-thumpin' evangelist "teachers" are teaching what they're supposed to, rather than indoctrinating the poor children with the subversive lies and making them a pack of bloodthirsty killers?)

Testing - Louisiana Department of Education - This link explains Louisiana's standardized testing system. Minimum scores are required, in addition to passing the classes, to qualify for graduation. What do they test?

Grade-Level Expectations - Louisiana Department of Education - This link explains Louisiana's educational expectations at every grade level. I did a search for the word "evolution" and you can all comfortably ignore the fact that knowledge of traditional Darwinian evolution is a requirement to pass Biology, which is required in all curricula. Evolution of the known universe, including the Big Bang theory is also required material. Oddly enough, I couldn't find one mention of Adam, Eve, God, or Intelligent Design in any of the science, World Geography, or World History PDFs.

Yes, I understand. This is Louisiana we're talking about, and we all know what toothless lying religious zealots they are, every single one of them. So of course these official web pages are just for public consumption and have no bearing at all on what really goes on in their schools.

Oh good. Glad there are safeguards in place.

Think atheists can be every bit as bigoted as the very religious. Don't think I've ever encountered a bigoted agnostic. It's hard to be bigoted about uncertainty.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:54 am

Ahso!;1395630 wrote: eta: BTW, some terms you might be better off searching for is "natural selection" and "speciation". See if they show up and if they do check for how they are defined.
Why don't YOU see if they show up. I'm not the one trying to justify my bigotry.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:59 am

Back in public middle school I had a creationist science teacher. On a personal level she was friendly and I liked her. Though as far as being a teacher, she was probably the one of the two worst science teachers I've ever had. Her job wasn't even to teach evolution, but she managed to interject creationist points of view in everything. You can't teach science, and more importantly promote an interest in it, while undermining it at the same time.

That year she told me I did well on the national science tests. She encouraged me to enroll in advanced classes the next year. But I decided against it and went for the easiest level, because I couldn't see the point of working harder learning more material if science was half b.s. like she said. The next year in middle school my science teacher was even worse. He was a military screamer who seemed to hate the class and the class didn't like him either. So I went from A's to an F. My interest in science didn't pick back up until I happened to get a real science teacher in highschool.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:12 am

Accountable;1395632 wrote: Of course I do. Religion BAD! Must be destroyed! Neither he nor I have suggested so. I've been speaking throughout as a practicing Christian in good standing. My unorthodoxy, if it is indeed unorthodox, is in refusing to forgive what fundamentalists have done with what is otherwise a perfectly good mental framework with which to explore existence.

As a Christian, traditionally, I'm not meant to despise them and abhor their disgusting notions. They pay no attention unless I do those things and even then their concept of God is so demonic that I find it impossible to engage the miscreants in any meaningful dialogue.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:47 am

Accountable;1395632 wrote: Of course I do. Religion BAD! Must be destroyed!why not just try answering what is a relevant question? Are you claiming my scenario is not legitimate?