Bad things happen in wars
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nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
Bad things happen in wars
I lost my Dad to the Viet Nam war. No - he didn't go over there - he didn't make it that far. As a Lt. Col. in the Army Air Ranger Reserve - he way doing his flights when he died (he was a pilot) and was told he would be called up again.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Bad things happen in wars
posted by spot
There seems to be a taboo, these days, along the lines of "the members of our Armed Forces are wonderful people, we admire them immensely for their potential sacrifice, let's applaud whenever they march by." Unpopular though it might be, I refuse to kow-tow to it. Taboos in general are lousy guides to morality. People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion. They had a choice to be useful members of society, and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines.
Just to put a different spin on this, most people in this country are intensely proud of our armed forces, for that reason care deeply about the circumstances in which they are asked to go to war. Many are angry about the circumstances that got us involved in it. We have an all volunteer force calling those who join moral derelicts I find offensive as well.
Iraq had nothing to do with 911, wmd's were a fabrication and lie to get the british parliament to agree, had the full intelligence reports not been altered to make the case it is fairly unlikely that TB would have got the support for war. We were lied to by our prime minister which is hardly the fault of the americans. Supporting our troops does not mean we blindly accept that what they are involved in was the right couirse of action just because a politician told us it was.
Warfare is a last resort and only a last resort. If you care about your armed forces you should care deeply about what and why they are being asked to die for and the effect it has on their families. TB has been very heavily criticised for not even writing to the families of the deceased and refusing to meet with them. Those opposed to the war in the UK don't get accused of not supporting our troops except by the most rabid idiot.
The last person who wants to fight in a war is the one that actually has to. There is a lot of sympathy for american troops put in an intolerable situation by their commander in chief, to go from all out warfare to peace keeping in urban areas where the target is not clear cut is a hard switch to make. ironically british forces are better trained for the kind of warfare in iraq thanks to experence in ireland and places like kosovo, it's not just they are in a safer area.
Personally I don't know how I would react in the kind of situation these troops find themselves in and it's easy to be judgemental in hindsight and from safety the military do the best job they can regardless i would query the motives of the policians that put them there whether american, british, european or anything else that led up to this
posted by jives
As opposed to you, a cowardly hypocrite who sits in his living room judging others and making no effort to help his country. The same country that has given him the freedom to spout this nonsense. Well, that's your right, won by these great people, and that right applies to all, even those as pathetic as yourself.
Not directed at me but patriotism does not mean my country right or wrong. That kind of jingoism died a long time ago round about the time of the first world war.
from the oxford engkish dictionary, a blast from the past
jingo // n. (pl. -oes)
a supporter of policy favouring war; a blustering patriot.
by jingo! a mild oath.
jingoism n.
jingoist n.
jingoistic // adj.
[17th c.: originally a conjuror's word: political sense from use of by jingo in a popular song, first applied to those supporting the sending of a British fleet into Turkish waters to resist Russia in 1878]
posted by jives
[QUOTE]The point remains, without the soldiers that you insult and degrade, vicious dictators can do what they will. Your army is all that stands between yourself and slavery to another government. I have a feeling that the North Koreans wouldn't mind annexing your little piece of real estate, if enough of your compatriots take a stance like yours.
All that stands between us and dictatorchip is the strong desire to tell all politicians to go play with themselves when they use a supposed outside threat to take away our hard fought for liberties. In the UK as a whole we don't buy it. TB now has the lowest % of the popular of any government in the UK since 1918, even Maggie T was more popular, leaving aside our need for electoral reform bear that in mind and don't assume there is popular support for the war in Iraq in the UK, there isn't. If actually attacked by another cuntry we would fight, terrorists do not represent a country and can't be fought with conventional armies or nuclear weapons, nor do they spring out of nowhere.
Support for our troops however, is there in spades. Same with US troops, dislike of US policy does not equate to dislike of americans per se or disrespect for your armed forces, but it is kind of a moot point if they should be asked to do what they have been in the first place. Talking about the behavious of some in these situations does get away from the main issue.
posted by anastrophe
now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.
I agree with you there. But I would have thought after the experience of vietnam I would have expected most americans to be more cynical about going to war and more ready to question the need for it and what their governments tells them. Seems you were fooled as well,
How about you sort out GW (OK he can't stand again but who's next?) and we'll sort out Tony Blair and our political system, personally I think we both need to. Ones not better than they other but there are considerable differences
you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea
Don't need to am quite well aware of it, don't pretend it never existed but would point out that in the 21st century imperialism should not be tolerated in any form by the US, Europe, China, Russia etc.l the roots of imperialism are still there it's the flower that is different (just made that up, good analogy huh?)
Like most peoples we can be nasty shits and have been and also wonderful as well, I could point to the treatment of the indigenous peoples and the fact you kept slavery going long after we abolished it in the empire but I wont.
The past is interesting as you can only appreciate why the present is the way it is by looking at it, If you think anyone in the UK would now go to war for the sake of empire now you are badly mistaken.
posted by capn buzzard
Bollocks. I did not think that Americans understood the meaning of this language Paul
Maybe we can teach the americans to swear properly? perhaps it's the accent or something but they either sound really prissy or effeminate. I think you need to be scots, irish or from the north of england to sound convincing when you swear.
There seems to be a taboo, these days, along the lines of "the members of our Armed Forces are wonderful people, we admire them immensely for their potential sacrifice, let's applaud whenever they march by." Unpopular though it might be, I refuse to kow-tow to it. Taboos in general are lousy guides to morality. People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion. They had a choice to be useful members of society, and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines.
Just to put a different spin on this, most people in this country are intensely proud of our armed forces, for that reason care deeply about the circumstances in which they are asked to go to war. Many are angry about the circumstances that got us involved in it. We have an all volunteer force calling those who join moral derelicts I find offensive as well.
Iraq had nothing to do with 911, wmd's were a fabrication and lie to get the british parliament to agree, had the full intelligence reports not been altered to make the case it is fairly unlikely that TB would have got the support for war. We were lied to by our prime minister which is hardly the fault of the americans. Supporting our troops does not mean we blindly accept that what they are involved in was the right couirse of action just because a politician told us it was.
Warfare is a last resort and only a last resort. If you care about your armed forces you should care deeply about what and why they are being asked to die for and the effect it has on their families. TB has been very heavily criticised for not even writing to the families of the deceased and refusing to meet with them. Those opposed to the war in the UK don't get accused of not supporting our troops except by the most rabid idiot.
The last person who wants to fight in a war is the one that actually has to. There is a lot of sympathy for american troops put in an intolerable situation by their commander in chief, to go from all out warfare to peace keeping in urban areas where the target is not clear cut is a hard switch to make. ironically british forces are better trained for the kind of warfare in iraq thanks to experence in ireland and places like kosovo, it's not just they are in a safer area.
Personally I don't know how I would react in the kind of situation these troops find themselves in and it's easy to be judgemental in hindsight and from safety the military do the best job they can regardless i would query the motives of the policians that put them there whether american, british, european or anything else that led up to this
posted by jives
As opposed to you, a cowardly hypocrite who sits in his living room judging others and making no effort to help his country. The same country that has given him the freedom to spout this nonsense. Well, that's your right, won by these great people, and that right applies to all, even those as pathetic as yourself.
Not directed at me but patriotism does not mean my country right or wrong. That kind of jingoism died a long time ago round about the time of the first world war.
from the oxford engkish dictionary, a blast from the past
jingo // n. (pl. -oes)
a supporter of policy favouring war; a blustering patriot.
by jingo! a mild oath.
jingoism n.
jingoist n.
jingoistic // adj.
[17th c.: originally a conjuror's word: political sense from use of by jingo in a popular song, first applied to those supporting the sending of a British fleet into Turkish waters to resist Russia in 1878]
posted by jives
[QUOTE]The point remains, without the soldiers that you insult and degrade, vicious dictators can do what they will. Your army is all that stands between yourself and slavery to another government. I have a feeling that the North Koreans wouldn't mind annexing your little piece of real estate, if enough of your compatriots take a stance like yours.
All that stands between us and dictatorchip is the strong desire to tell all politicians to go play with themselves when they use a supposed outside threat to take away our hard fought for liberties. In the UK as a whole we don't buy it. TB now has the lowest % of the popular of any government in the UK since 1918, even Maggie T was more popular, leaving aside our need for electoral reform bear that in mind and don't assume there is popular support for the war in Iraq in the UK, there isn't. If actually attacked by another cuntry we would fight, terrorists do not represent a country and can't be fought with conventional armies or nuclear weapons, nor do they spring out of nowhere.
Support for our troops however, is there in spades. Same with US troops, dislike of US policy does not equate to dislike of americans per se or disrespect for your armed forces, but it is kind of a moot point if they should be asked to do what they have been in the first place. Talking about the behavious of some in these situations does get away from the main issue.
posted by anastrophe
now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.
I agree with you there. But I would have thought after the experience of vietnam I would have expected most americans to be more cynical about going to war and more ready to question the need for it and what their governments tells them. Seems you were fooled as well,
How about you sort out GW (OK he can't stand again but who's next?) and we'll sort out Tony Blair and our political system, personally I think we both need to. Ones not better than they other but there are considerable differences
you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea
Don't need to am quite well aware of it, don't pretend it never existed but would point out that in the 21st century imperialism should not be tolerated in any form by the US, Europe, China, Russia etc.l the roots of imperialism are still there it's the flower that is different (just made that up, good analogy huh?)
Like most peoples we can be nasty shits and have been and also wonderful as well, I could point to the treatment of the indigenous peoples and the fact you kept slavery going long after we abolished it in the empire but I wont.
The past is interesting as you can only appreciate why the present is the way it is by looking at it, If you think anyone in the UK would now go to war for the sake of empire now you are badly mistaken.
posted by capn buzzard
Bollocks. I did not think that Americans understood the meaning of this language Paul
Maybe we can teach the americans to swear properly? perhaps it's the accent or something but they either sound really prissy or effeminate. I think you need to be scots, irish or from the north of england to sound convincing when you swear.
Bad things happen in wars
That's a magnificent post, gmc. I wish I could write like that.
I voted for yon Blair chappie, and he was such a clean breath of a breeze in those days. We didn't realize the import of that messianic gleam in his eye. The thought that he might go whoring with others never crossed our innocent minds. How things changed, though...
Farewell to cold winter, summer's come at last
Nothing have I gained but my true love I have lost
I'll sing and I'll be happy like the birds upon the tree
For since he deceived me I care no more for he
Let him go, let him tarry, let him sink or let him swim
He doesn't care for me nor I don't care for him
He can go and get another that I hope he will enjoy
For I am going to marry a far nicer boy
Except, sadly, the only far nicer boy on offer was Michael Howard. Well, we had the election, I got the manifestos, I was peppered with paper through the post, and guess what?
He wrote me a letter saying he was very bad
I sent him back an answer saying I was awful glad
He wrote to me another saying he was well and strong
But I care no more about him than the ground he walks upon
Despite which, dear reader, I voted for him. Tony Blair is back in power with my mandate clasped do his bosom.
Isn't life strange?
gmc wrote: We have an all volunteer force calling those who join moral derelicts I find offensive as well.My first reaction was, that's the point, they volunteered. I have a huge sympathy for conscripts. I'd give a cup of tea to a passing conscript, Chinese or Finnish, any day of the week. As you say, "The last person who wants to fight in a war is the one that actually has to". But I'll concede, instead. Not because I raised a flurry of hackles - I posted one side of my mind to shock, and it's still partly my mind. I concede because it's not all of my mind. There are squaddies out there who would help old ladies cross the road, and I hope they come home safe. I withdraw the epithet of "moral derelicts".
I voted for yon Blair chappie, and he was such a clean breath of a breeze in those days. We didn't realize the import of that messianic gleam in his eye. The thought that he might go whoring with others never crossed our innocent minds. How things changed, though...
Farewell to cold winter, summer's come at last
Nothing have I gained but my true love I have lost
I'll sing and I'll be happy like the birds upon the tree
For since he deceived me I care no more for he
Let him go, let him tarry, let him sink or let him swim
He doesn't care for me nor I don't care for him
He can go and get another that I hope he will enjoy
For I am going to marry a far nicer boy
Except, sadly, the only far nicer boy on offer was Michael Howard. Well, we had the election, I got the manifestos, I was peppered with paper through the post, and guess what?
He wrote me a letter saying he was very bad
I sent him back an answer saying I was awful glad
He wrote to me another saying he was well and strong
But I care no more about him than the ground he walks upon
Despite which, dear reader, I voted for him. Tony Blair is back in power with my mandate clasped do his bosom.
Isn't life strange?
gmc wrote: We have an all volunteer force calling those who join moral derelicts I find offensive as well.My first reaction was, that's the point, they volunteered. I have a huge sympathy for conscripts. I'd give a cup of tea to a passing conscript, Chinese or Finnish, any day of the week. As you say, "The last person who wants to fight in a war is the one that actually has to". But I'll concede, instead. Not because I raised a flurry of hackles - I posted one side of my mind to shock, and it's still partly my mind. I concede because it's not all of my mind. There are squaddies out there who would help old ladies cross the road, and I hope they come home safe. I withdraw the epithet of "moral derelicts".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Philadelphia Eagle
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:50 am
Bad things happen in wars
This thread illustrates,I think, that there are fundamental differences in thinking between the general populations in America and that of Britain.
As has been stated by others, we are extremely proud of the achievements (often milatarily led) of our nation throughout the world and to have it degrated is anathama to us.
In the course of my work I found myself from time to time alongside active units of both American and British operatives and both were entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries.
The populations of both owe a huge debt of gratitute to them - often greater than people imagine.
The difference in thinking, I believe, is that here in America that understanding or acceptance is perhaps more videly accepted.
Spot made the classic error of confusing the US Armed Forces withdrawl from Vietnam with the Fall of Saigon and the capitulation of the South Vietnamese Army to the Viet Cong two years later.
I have on several occasions met with some of those MIA's from Vietnam - not here in America but elsewhere. They have made new lives overseas.
I'm retired now and will always be grateful for the on-going work our people do to keep this country free and safe.
As has been stated by others, we are extremely proud of the achievements (often milatarily led) of our nation throughout the world and to have it degrated is anathama to us.
In the course of my work I found myself from time to time alongside active units of both American and British operatives and both were entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries.
The populations of both owe a huge debt of gratitute to them - often greater than people imagine.
The difference in thinking, I believe, is that here in America that understanding or acceptance is perhaps more videly accepted.
Spot made the classic error of confusing the US Armed Forces withdrawl from Vietnam with the Fall of Saigon and the capitulation of the South Vietnamese Army to the Viet Cong two years later.
I have on several occasions met with some of those MIA's from Vietnam - not here in America but elsewhere. They have made new lives overseas.
I'm retired now and will always be grateful for the on-going work our people do to keep this country free and safe.
America the Beautiful :-6
website - home.comcast.net/~nmusgrave/
website - home.comcast.net/~nmusgrave/
Bad things happen in wars
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: As has been stated by others, we are extremely proud of the achievements (often milatarily led) of our nation throughout the world and to have it degrated is anathama to us.But you will, I hope, concede that there are two *legitimate* points of view, here? "Nationalism is an infantile disease, the measles of mankind" isn't the view of an idiot, it's a quote from Einstein.
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: In the course of my work I found myself from time to time alongside active units of both American and British operatives and both were entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries.Entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries, undoubtedly. Utterly so. What of poor Lynndie England, though - co-opted, untrained, put into a role specifically because she's not got the military education of a professional soldier and is unaware of her duty to refuse illegal orders? Now she's a scapegoat, and because she was never "real" army nobody's on her side at all. She's been used and abused by these professionals.
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: Spot made the classic error of confusing the US Armed Forces withdrawl from Vietnam with the Fall of Saigon and the capitulation of the South Vietnamese Army to the Viet Cong two years later.Easily done, and I've admitted my error. I'm pleased I found that figure of 1,373 U.S. Nationals still resident in Vietnam right up to the last month, though. It's more than an embassy-full.
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: I have on several occasions met with some of those MIA's from Vietnam - not here in America but elsewhere. They have made new lives overseas.That's an interesting comment, PA. Do you mean MIAs, or do you mean men who refused both the draft and the subsequent oath of allegiance, which is what my near-100,000 figure spoke of?
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: In the course of my work I found myself from time to time alongside active units of both American and British operatives and both were entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries.Entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries, undoubtedly. Utterly so. What of poor Lynndie England, though - co-opted, untrained, put into a role specifically because she's not got the military education of a professional soldier and is unaware of her duty to refuse illegal orders? Now she's a scapegoat, and because she was never "real" army nobody's on her side at all. She's been used and abused by these professionals.
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: Spot made the classic error of confusing the US Armed Forces withdrawl from Vietnam with the Fall of Saigon and the capitulation of the South Vietnamese Army to the Viet Cong two years later.Easily done, and I've admitted my error. I'm pleased I found that figure of 1,373 U.S. Nationals still resident in Vietnam right up to the last month, though. It's more than an embassy-full.
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: I have on several occasions met with some of those MIA's from Vietnam - not here in America but elsewhere. They have made new lives overseas.That's an interesting comment, PA. Do you mean MIAs, or do you mean men who refused both the draft and the subsequent oath of allegiance, which is what my near-100,000 figure spoke of?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
koan wrote: I have never before heard this point of view that the US should not have pulled out. Not that I disagree. I wouldn't know. I was just wondering if this is only your opinion or if there are many others who feel the same way. Why do you think they were about to negotiate? koan:
It is my opinion that when we pulled out "WITH HONOR" (yah right) this let the Khmer Rouge (Red Khmer) gain traction and take total control of Cambodia.
They were led by Pol Pot
From April 17, 1975, (when they took control of Phnom Penh the capitol of Cambodia) for the next four years 1.7-million people were destroyed in a genocide in Cambodia. That number translates to one out of every five Cambodians. Maybe there is a history lesson here for walking away from Iraq?
The reason for the bombings in Cambodia stem from the North Vienamese hiding in Cambodia to move supplies and attack into South Vietnam.
The Khmer Rouge refused to negotiate in Paris and seeing the the US preparing to pull out of Viet Nam, and the bombings stopping in Cambodia, waited for the opening to seize power over Cambodia. This led to the mass genocides.
koan I think this is not the place to carry this on, but if you want me to cause waves and bring up a new thread on Viet Nam I would consider it.....
It is my opinion that when we pulled out "WITH HONOR" (yah right) this let the Khmer Rouge (Red Khmer) gain traction and take total control of Cambodia.
They were led by Pol Pot
From April 17, 1975, (when they took control of Phnom Penh the capitol of Cambodia) for the next four years 1.7-million people were destroyed in a genocide in Cambodia. That number translates to one out of every five Cambodians. Maybe there is a history lesson here for walking away from Iraq?
The reason for the bombings in Cambodia stem from the North Vienamese hiding in Cambodia to move supplies and attack into South Vietnam.
The Khmer Rouge refused to negotiate in Paris and seeing the the US preparing to pull out of Viet Nam, and the bombings stopping in Cambodia, waited for the opening to seize power over Cambodia. This led to the mass genocides.
koan I think this is not the place to carry this on, but if you want me to cause waves and bring up a new thread on Viet Nam I would consider it.....
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Bad things happen in wars
BTS
It's up to you if you start a thread on it or not. I am certainly interested in reading it but I know how much work is involved when you start a controversial thread that needs research etc.
It's up to you if you start a thread on it or not. I am certainly interested in reading it but I know how much work is involved when you start a controversial thread that needs research etc.
Bad things happen in wars
That's a magnificent post, gmc. I wish I could write like that.
Keep talking to jives and anastrophe and you will find you have to think about what you say and the way you say it. It's actually the best bit about the forum IMO you have to think about your opinion and be able to articulate it rather than just have it. Type slowly and remember their spelling is crap.
I voted for yon Blair chappie, and he was such a clean breath of a breeze in those days. We didn't realize the import of that messianic gleam in his eye. The thought that he might go whoring with others never crossed our innocent minds. How things changed, though...
Pleased to say I didn't, have thought he was a smarmy git from the very beginning almost voted for Robin Cook since he's my MP and I respect the way he stuck to his principles and walked out of the cabinet. but as always I have voted on favour of PR, until we get it we are always going to get the maggie thatchers and the tony blairs. neither the Tories or Labour want change as they realise it means they might actually be able to convince people their policies are right.
Do you have gerrymandering in the United States? The first thing Labour did was redraw the boundaries, the tories do it as well that's why they keep quoit about it.
posted by philadelhia eagle
This thread illustrates,I think, that there are fundamental differences in thinking between the general populations in America and that of Britain.
As has been stated by others, we are extremely proud of the achievements (often milatarily led) of our nation throughout the world and to have it degrated is anathama to us.
You have every reason to be proud of your armed forces, you have better military than the politicians deserve. Criticising some aspects of US foreign policy is not a criticism of your military or americans per se. Just as valid criticisms of the devious hypocrisy of european policy in the middle east and elsewhere, well speaking personally I don't assume that you automatically dislike all europeans just because you object to some of the things the EEC does. We know european governments, especially the french, are hypocritical and manipulative and out for their own interests. All that is being pointed out is that US policy is hardly altruistic on many occasions either.
What is the national interest? it is a mistake to believe it is what a politician tells you.
posted by philadelphia eagle
In the course of my work I found myself from time to time alongside active units of both American and British operatives and both were entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries.
The populations of both owe a huge debt of gratitute to them - often greater than people imagine.
The difference in thinking, I believe, is that here in America that understanding or acceptance is perhaps more videly accepted.
There I would really disagree with you, what is different is that when we criticise the war in Iraq we are not being critical of the armed forces or condemning them, far from it it is anger at the position they have been put in and the duplicity surrounding the decision. When some politicians made comment that those opposed to the war should be more patriotic and support our troops it was very rapidly squashed as being a pathetic attempt to stop dissent which . You don't support troops by cheering every time they go to war but by making damn sure that when they are asked to fight the reasons are sound.
It is an acknowledged fact that british armed forces are the best in the world, those who disagree don't know what they are talking about you really would not get very far putting any other point of view in th UK believe me. No one would argue with you probably out of a desire to be polite to foreigners who don't know any better.
Pride in our miltary is intensely felt especially perhaps in Scotland where most of the regiments recruit locally and generation in the same family have served, the Iraq war and the doing away with of the traditional scottish regiments cost Labour an awful lot of support in Scotland.
you do seem a tad sensitive to criticism and ready to take umbrage at the least imagined slight and assume that if you slag of the queen tony blair etc in retaliation we will be equally offended. doesn't work you have have a hard job being any more disrespectful than we are ourselves and it's not taken personally anyway. Try and have the self confidence not to worry what other people think. Shees calling MacDonald's unhealthy is being taken as anti american and anti capitalist. Actually you should see what is said about europeans, frog eaters being one of the kinder ones about the french, hamburger eaters is not as insulting somehow. When i think about it we are quite kind.
Maybe it's because your president is also your head of state so you take it as personally insulting about america when he gets called a woodentop. Tony Blair is just the leader of the party with the majority of seats in parliament as such he does not symbolise the nation. Woodentop is quite a pleasant epithet, smarmy lying git is more often the description used about Tony Blair, we expect our political commentators to ask awkward questions and make the bastards squirm. The term paxo'd I think will enter the english lexicon in honour of one of the more aggressive questioners.
Dwight D Eisenhower
QUOTE]This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience....We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications....In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
Farewell broadcast, 17 Jan. 1961, in New York Times 18 Jan. 1961
This is one of the most prescient quotations of the 20th century, add in a dash of fundamentalist christianity and the wilkl to use military power as an instrument of policy and I can of wonder where america is going with it all.
George Orwell
Political languageis designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
Shooting an Elephant (1950) Politics and the English Language
http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/h ... index.html
Keep talking to jives and anastrophe and you will find you have to think about what you say and the way you say it. It's actually the best bit about the forum IMO you have to think about your opinion and be able to articulate it rather than just have it. Type slowly and remember their spelling is crap.
I voted for yon Blair chappie, and he was such a clean breath of a breeze in those days. We didn't realize the import of that messianic gleam in his eye. The thought that he might go whoring with others never crossed our innocent minds. How things changed, though...
Pleased to say I didn't, have thought he was a smarmy git from the very beginning almost voted for Robin Cook since he's my MP and I respect the way he stuck to his principles and walked out of the cabinet. but as always I have voted on favour of PR, until we get it we are always going to get the maggie thatchers and the tony blairs. neither the Tories or Labour want change as they realise it means they might actually be able to convince people their policies are right.
Do you have gerrymandering in the United States? The first thing Labour did was redraw the boundaries, the tories do it as well that's why they keep quoit about it.
posted by philadelhia eagle
This thread illustrates,I think, that there are fundamental differences in thinking between the general populations in America and that of Britain.
As has been stated by others, we are extremely proud of the achievements (often milatarily led) of our nation throughout the world and to have it degrated is anathama to us.
You have every reason to be proud of your armed forces, you have better military than the politicians deserve. Criticising some aspects of US foreign policy is not a criticism of your military or americans per se. Just as valid criticisms of the devious hypocrisy of european policy in the middle east and elsewhere, well speaking personally I don't assume that you automatically dislike all europeans just because you object to some of the things the EEC does. We know european governments, especially the french, are hypocritical and manipulative and out for their own interests. All that is being pointed out is that US policy is hardly altruistic on many occasions either.
What is the national interest? it is a mistake to believe it is what a politician tells you.
posted by philadelphia eagle
In the course of my work I found myself from time to time alongside active units of both American and British operatives and both were entirely professional and a credit to their respective countries.
The populations of both owe a huge debt of gratitute to them - often greater than people imagine.
The difference in thinking, I believe, is that here in America that understanding or acceptance is perhaps more videly accepted.
There I would really disagree with you, what is different is that when we criticise the war in Iraq we are not being critical of the armed forces or condemning them, far from it it is anger at the position they have been put in and the duplicity surrounding the decision. When some politicians made comment that those opposed to the war should be more patriotic and support our troops it was very rapidly squashed as being a pathetic attempt to stop dissent which . You don't support troops by cheering every time they go to war but by making damn sure that when they are asked to fight the reasons are sound.
It is an acknowledged fact that british armed forces are the best in the world, those who disagree don't know what they are talking about you really would not get very far putting any other point of view in th UK believe me. No one would argue with you probably out of a desire to be polite to foreigners who don't know any better.
Pride in our miltary is intensely felt especially perhaps in Scotland where most of the regiments recruit locally and generation in the same family have served, the Iraq war and the doing away with of the traditional scottish regiments cost Labour an awful lot of support in Scotland.
you do seem a tad sensitive to criticism and ready to take umbrage at the least imagined slight and assume that if you slag of the queen tony blair etc in retaliation we will be equally offended. doesn't work you have have a hard job being any more disrespectful than we are ourselves and it's not taken personally anyway. Try and have the self confidence not to worry what other people think. Shees calling MacDonald's unhealthy is being taken as anti american and anti capitalist. Actually you should see what is said about europeans, frog eaters being one of the kinder ones about the french, hamburger eaters is not as insulting somehow. When i think about it we are quite kind.
Maybe it's because your president is also your head of state so you take it as personally insulting about america when he gets called a woodentop. Tony Blair is just the leader of the party with the majority of seats in parliament as such he does not symbolise the nation. Woodentop is quite a pleasant epithet, smarmy lying git is more often the description used about Tony Blair, we expect our political commentators to ask awkward questions and make the bastards squirm. The term paxo'd I think will enter the english lexicon in honour of one of the more aggressive questioners.
Dwight D Eisenhower
QUOTE]This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience....We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications....In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
Farewell broadcast, 17 Jan. 1961, in New York Times 18 Jan. 1961
This is one of the most prescient quotations of the 20th century, add in a dash of fundamentalist christianity and the wilkl to use military power as an instrument of policy and I can of wonder where america is going with it all.
George Orwell
Political languageis designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
Shooting an Elephant (1950) Politics and the English Language
http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/h ... index.html
-
Philadelphia Eagle
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:50 am
Bad things happen in wars
I mean MIA's , Spot.
I'm afraid you'll just have to accept the fact that I'm well trained to know the difference between an MIA and a draft dodger.
I'm afraid you'll just have to accept the fact that I'm well trained to know the difference between an MIA and a draft dodger.
America the Beautiful :-6
website - home.comcast.net/~nmusgrave/
website - home.comcast.net/~nmusgrave/
Bad things happen in wars
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: I mean MIA's , Spot.
I'm afraid you'll just have to accept the fact that I'm well trained to know the difference between an MIA and a draft dodger.I only asked because I'd mentioned Americans living abroad rather than swear an oath of allegiance to the USA, and you mentioned Americans living abroad as well. I think most people would find it an interesting comment that you made, not just me. These are people who are listed as missing in action after the Vietnam War, and you've met them abroad where "They have made new lives overseas". I'm not disbelieving you at all, but I've not heard of such a thing before. I don't move among people from whom I'd expect to have heard it, of course. If you'd ever like to go into more detail, I for one would be interested to know more about it.
I'm afraid you'll just have to accept the fact that I'm well trained to know the difference between an MIA and a draft dodger.I only asked because I'd mentioned Americans living abroad rather than swear an oath of allegiance to the USA, and you mentioned Americans living abroad as well. I think most people would find it an interesting comment that you made, not just me. These are people who are listed as missing in action after the Vietnam War, and you've met them abroad where "They have made new lives overseas". I'm not disbelieving you at all, but I've not heard of such a thing before. I don't move among people from whom I'd expect to have heard it, of course. If you'd ever like to go into more detail, I for one would be interested to know more about it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Philadelphia Eagle
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:50 am
Bad things happen in wars
Unfortunately, Spot, I can't elaborate on this one.
The sitaution I described is well known in some circles.
I'm not being evasive but I have certain constraints placed upon me (even though I'm retired now).
The sitaution I described is well known in some circles.
I'm not being evasive but I have certain constraints placed upon me (even though I'm retired now).
America the Beautiful :-6
website - home.comcast.net/~nmusgrave/
website - home.comcast.net/~nmusgrave/
Bad things happen in wars
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: Unfortunately, Spot, I can't elaborate on this one.I'm quite happy with that. I perked up because I thought you might have comments relating to Sedgwick Tourison's "Secret Army, Secret War", or the Lao/Hmong veterans. That was a tale I'd have been interested to hear, and you might have been refering to it in passing. Whatever it is though, whenever you feel it's tellable, I'm sure you'll find listeners.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
koan wrote: I have never before heard this point of view that the US should not have pulled out. Not that I disagree. I wouldn't know. I was just wondering if this is only your opinion or if there are many others who feel the same way. Why do you think they were about to negotiate?
It's called the "Linebacker Operations" Koan. We had been fighting a political war fo the most part of the war, finally, the Generals and the politicians got together and decided to fight a military war. Take a look at this:
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... parks.html
After the strikes, Hanoi looked like the surface of the Moon. BTS is right, they were ready to negotiate.
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/vn_af.jpg
It's called the "Linebacker Operations" Koan. We had been fighting a political war fo the most part of the war, finally, the Generals and the politicians got together and decided to fight a military war. Take a look at this:
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... parks.html
After the strikes, Hanoi looked like the surface of the Moon. BTS is right, they were ready to negotiate.
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/vn_af.jpg
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Bad things happen in wars
Philadelphia Eagle wrote: Spot made the classic error of confusing the US Armed Forces withdrawl from Vietnam with the Fall of Saigon and the capitulation of the South Vietnamese Army to the Viet Cong two years later.As a footnote to this part of the discussion - remote though it has become from General Mattis - may I quote this paragraph?
"The base at Udorn was shut down at the end of June. Operations in Vietnam continued until the fall of Saigon in April 1975. When plans for a new stay-behind company in Thailand, staffed by a contingent of select helicopter and transport pilots, fell through, all Air America personnel were discharged. The company finally closed its doors on 30 June 1976, returning more than $20 million to the US Treasury"
The surrounding story from which this is taken, of what I still think qualifies as US Armed Forces involvement in Vietnam until April 1975, is at http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art7.html
"The base at Udorn was shut down at the end of June. Operations in Vietnam continued until the fall of Saigon in April 1975. When plans for a new stay-behind company in Thailand, staffed by a contingent of select helicopter and transport pilots, fell through, all Air America personnel were discharged. The company finally closed its doors on 30 June 1976, returning more than $20 million to the US Treasury"
The surrounding story from which this is taken, of what I still think qualifies as US Armed Forces involvement in Vietnam until April 1975, is at http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art7.html
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion. They had a choice to be useful members of society, and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines.
American Soldier(Toby Keith/Chuck Cannon)
I’m just tryin’ to be a father, raise a daughter and a son be a lover to their mother, everythin’ to everyone
Up and at ‘em bright and early, I’m all business in my suit
Yeah I’m dressed up for success, from my head down to my boots
I don’t do it for money, there’s bills I that I can’t pay
I don’t do it for the glory, I just do it anyway
Providing for our future’s, my responsibility
Yeah I’m real good under pressure, being all that I can be
And I can’t call in sick on Mondays when the weekend’s been too strong
I just work straight through the holidays, and sometimes all night long
You can bet that I stand ready, when the wolf growls at the door
Hey I’m solid, hey I’m steady, hey I’m true down to the core.
And I will always do my duty no matter what the price
I’ve counted up the cost, I know the sacrifice
Oh and I don’t want to die for you, but if dyin’s asked of me
I’ll bear that cross with honor, cause freedom don’t come free.
I’m an American Soldier an American
Beside my brothers and my sisters, I will proudly take a stand
When liberty’s in jeopardy, I will always do what’s right
I’m out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight
American Soldier, I’m an American, Soldier.
An American Soldier an American
Beside my brothers and my sisters, I will proudly take a stand
When liberty’s in jeopardy, I will always do what’s right
I’m out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight.
Have you a pipe in which you can smoke that?Back atcha'.
American Soldier(Toby Keith/Chuck Cannon)
I’m just tryin’ to be a father, raise a daughter and a son be a lover to their mother, everythin’ to everyone
Up and at ‘em bright and early, I’m all business in my suit
Yeah I’m dressed up for success, from my head down to my boots
I don’t do it for money, there’s bills I that I can’t pay
I don’t do it for the glory, I just do it anyway
Providing for our future’s, my responsibility
Yeah I’m real good under pressure, being all that I can be
And I can’t call in sick on Mondays when the weekend’s been too strong
I just work straight through the holidays, and sometimes all night long
You can bet that I stand ready, when the wolf growls at the door
Hey I’m solid, hey I’m steady, hey I’m true down to the core.
And I will always do my duty no matter what the price
I’ve counted up the cost, I know the sacrifice
Oh and I don’t want to die for you, but if dyin’s asked of me
I’ll bear that cross with honor, cause freedom don’t come free.
I’m an American Soldier an American
Beside my brothers and my sisters, I will proudly take a stand
When liberty’s in jeopardy, I will always do what’s right
I’m out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight
American Soldier, I’m an American, Soldier.
An American Soldier an American
Beside my brothers and my sisters, I will proudly take a stand
When liberty’s in jeopardy, I will always do what’s right
I’m out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight.
Have you a pipe in which you can smoke that?Back atcha'.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
Bad things happen in wars
BabyRider wrote: Back atcha'.I deserve every word of it, BabyRider, and I apologised a while back for extending "moral derelicts" to the troops at the sharp end of conflict. I have issues with the guys who put them in harm's way, both the politicians and the ranking officers who implement or give unethical, or even illegal, commands.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
I know you did. I just couldn't resist. I'm human.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
Bad things happen in wars
BabyRider wrote: I know you did. I just couldn't resist. I'm human.And biker trash too, for goodness' sake. I had a two-cylinder BSA (that's a bike but a lot short of a Harley) when I was a lad.
I've listened to Toby Keith's song, it wasn't as C&W as I'd expected from the lyrics. He picks his guitar well. I'd prefer it without the string section. Strong voice, I'll see if I can find a CD on eBay.
Here's my favorite lyric about the military, it has that sitting-around-bored-sideways aspect of military life that people talk about:
Terry Allen, from his Salivation CD:
It's X-mas on the Isthmus of Panama
We're listless this Christmas, no Santa Claus
No wise men, no angels no mistletoe trucks
No reindeer, no shepherds, we're right out of luck.
Ah we hung all our stockings on the palm trees with care
Stayed up all night, Still nothin there
So we snorted some incense and shot up some myrrh
Stayed up two more days, just to make sure
It's X-mas on the Isthmus of Panama
It's hopeless, we're dopeless, no Santa Claus
No wise men, no angels, no mistletoe trucks
No reindeer, no shepherds, we're right out of luck
Bethlehem...Bethle-her ... Bethle-you Bethle-me ... Mucho
There’s something about X-mas that brings me to tears
Snowmen an chestnuts and roastin reindeers
That story from the Bible, God's only son
The immaculate injection, ah you know the one
Well they wadn't from round here, they was Judean strangers
So they called up the front desk "Let me speak to the Manger"
There was horses, there was cows, there was sheep, there was pig
Mary asked Joseph "Hey who booked this gig?"
I've listened to Toby Keith's song, it wasn't as C&W as I'd expected from the lyrics. He picks his guitar well. I'd prefer it without the string section. Strong voice, I'll see if I can find a CD on eBay.
Here's my favorite lyric about the military, it has that sitting-around-bored-sideways aspect of military life that people talk about:
Terry Allen, from his Salivation CD:
It's X-mas on the Isthmus of Panama
We're listless this Christmas, no Santa Claus
No wise men, no angels no mistletoe trucks
No reindeer, no shepherds, we're right out of luck.
Ah we hung all our stockings on the palm trees with care
Stayed up all night, Still nothin there
So we snorted some incense and shot up some myrrh
Stayed up two more days, just to make sure
It's X-mas on the Isthmus of Panama
It's hopeless, we're dopeless, no Santa Claus
No wise men, no angels, no mistletoe trucks
No reindeer, no shepherds, we're right out of luck
Bethlehem...Bethle-her ... Bethle-you Bethle-me ... Mucho
There’s something about X-mas that brings me to tears
Snowmen an chestnuts and roastin reindeers
That story from the Bible, God's only son
The immaculate injection, ah you know the one
Well they wadn't from round here, they was Judean strangers
So they called up the front desk "Let me speak to the Manger"
There was horses, there was cows, there was sheep, there was pig
Mary asked Joseph "Hey who booked this gig?"
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Bad things happen in wars
spot wrote: As a footnote to this part of the discussion - remote though it has become from General Mattis - may I quote this paragraph?
"The base at Udorn was shut down at the end of June. Operations in Vietnam continued until the fall of Saigon in April 1975. When plans for a new stay-behind company in Thailand, staffed by a contingent of select helicopter and transport pilots, fell through, all Air America personnel were discharged. The company finally closed its doors on 30 June 1976, returning more than $20 million to the US Treasury"
The surrounding story from which this is taken, of what I still think qualifies as US Armed Forces involvement in Vietnam until April 1975, is at http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art7.html
unable to concede the point and drop it, i see.
"The base at Udorn was shut down at the end of June. Operations in Vietnam continued until the fall of Saigon in April 1975. When plans for a new stay-behind company in Thailand, staffed by a contingent of select helicopter and transport pilots, fell through, all Air America personnel were discharged. The company finally closed its doors on 30 June 1976, returning more than $20 million to the US Treasury"
The surrounding story from which this is taken, of what I still think qualifies as US Armed Forces involvement in Vietnam until April 1975, is at http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art7.html
unable to concede the point and drop it, i see.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Bad things happen in wars
posted by spot
And biker trash too, for goodness' sake. I had a two-cylinder BSA (that's a bike but a lot short of a Harley) when I was a lad.
Ageing rocker eh? bet you went to margate for your hols.
re vietnam, how about should the US have got involved in the first place?
http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/h ... index.html
It's easy to be smart in hindsight or waste time in ah buts, history has a habit of repeating itself. Just curious to see what you think.
And biker trash too, for goodness' sake. I had a two-cylinder BSA (that's a bike but a lot short of a Harley) when I was a lad.
Ageing rocker eh? bet you went to margate for your hols.
re vietnam, how about should the US have got involved in the first place?
http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/h ... index.html
It's easy to be smart in hindsight or waste time in ah buts, history has a habit of repeating itself. Just curious to see what you think.
Bad things happen in wars
anastrophe wrote: unable to concede the point and drop it, i see.We disagree over the meaning of the words, anastrophe. There were undoubtedly military advisers in-country until April 1975. Of course the US withdrew its divisions in accordance with the Paris Treaty of 1973. Nobody has suggested otherwise. There were - let's cover all possibilities - between one and six thousand US military and intelligence personnel in-country at the start of April 1975, besides those who landed to support the withdrawal. They withdrew during that month. It's those people for whom you and I cannot find a mutually acceptable label. This is wording, not disagreement. I'm not out to score points.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Bad things happen in wars
spot wrote: We disagree over the meaning of the words, anastrophe. There were undoubtedly military advisers in-country until April 1975. Of course the US withdrew its divisions in accordance with the Paris Treaty of 1973. Nobody has suggested otherwise.
as i said, unwilling to concede the point. this all arose because you wrote, and i quote:You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?
i pointed out that that statement was in error. ignoring that virtually every news agency on the planet, when reporting the anniversary on 30 april 2005, referred to it - correctly i might add - as the thirtieth anniversary of the fall of saigon.
that was the dispute, the whole of the dispute. i said 'get your facts straight'. since then, you've done everything in your power to avoid acknowledging that the anniversary that was recognized on 30 april 2005 was the thirtieth anniversary of the fall of saigon.
This is wording, not disagreement. I'm not out to score points.you're just out to never concede that you were wrong in the statement quoted above.
what it boils down to for me is, why do you care? why this absolutely overarching fixation on any and all errors, failures, wrongs, deceptions that the U.S. may have committed over apparently the last 100 years? The Pat Tillman thing - why do *you* a british citizen give a damn about what type of service cross he was awarded posthumously? the only answer i can infer is that *any* wrong committed by the US apparently in your view damns *all* of the US.
but there i go again, falling for Trolling behavior. How about that topic that linked to a website that claimed that dozens of MP's were active pedophiles, that tony blair was covering up? why aren't you spending your hours online trying to get to the bottom of that alleged malfeasance? what about the racist thugs in england who routinely beat and intimidate "towel heads" - when's britain going to fix that problem? is tony blair in bed with the oil companies? he allied himself with bush, the texas oilman, and we all know that the iraq war was about oil. was tony thinking ahead - the north sea output has already peaked, so better get in bed with the american oil barrons to ensure the flow of petrol to the commonwealth? and why is it the violent crime and murder rates are rising at a faster rate ever since the virtual ban on all firearms? shouldn't you look at your policies there?
maybe that'll keep you busy for a bit. be a love and start a new topic for each one though, so we can keep them out of this thread that is strictly about the wedding party massacre and coverup. you remember that, right? that's what this topic started out about.
sigh.
as i said, unwilling to concede the point. this all arose because you wrote, and i quote:You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?
i pointed out that that statement was in error. ignoring that virtually every news agency on the planet, when reporting the anniversary on 30 april 2005, referred to it - correctly i might add - as the thirtieth anniversary of the fall of saigon.
that was the dispute, the whole of the dispute. i said 'get your facts straight'. since then, you've done everything in your power to avoid acknowledging that the anniversary that was recognized on 30 april 2005 was the thirtieth anniversary of the fall of saigon.
This is wording, not disagreement. I'm not out to score points.you're just out to never concede that you were wrong in the statement quoted above.
what it boils down to for me is, why do you care? why this absolutely overarching fixation on any and all errors, failures, wrongs, deceptions that the U.S. may have committed over apparently the last 100 years? The Pat Tillman thing - why do *you* a british citizen give a damn about what type of service cross he was awarded posthumously? the only answer i can infer is that *any* wrong committed by the US apparently in your view damns *all* of the US.
but there i go again, falling for Trolling behavior. How about that topic that linked to a website that claimed that dozens of MP's were active pedophiles, that tony blair was covering up? why aren't you spending your hours online trying to get to the bottom of that alleged malfeasance? what about the racist thugs in england who routinely beat and intimidate "towel heads" - when's britain going to fix that problem? is tony blair in bed with the oil companies? he allied himself with bush, the texas oilman, and we all know that the iraq war was about oil. was tony thinking ahead - the north sea output has already peaked, so better get in bed with the american oil barrons to ensure the flow of petrol to the commonwealth? and why is it the violent crime and murder rates are rising at a faster rate ever since the virtual ban on all firearms? shouldn't you look at your policies there?
maybe that'll keep you busy for a bit. be a love and start a new topic for each one though, so we can keep them out of this thread that is strictly about the wedding party massacre and coverup. you remember that, right? that's what this topic started out about.
sigh.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Bad things happen in wars
spot wrote:
I'll see if I can find a CD on eBay.
The title you'll be looking for is "Shockin' Y'all." Great stuff.
Ok, back to the thread......
I'll see if I can find a CD on eBay.
The title you'll be looking for is "Shockin' Y'all." Great stuff.
Ok, back to the thread......
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]
Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????
We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.
Bad things happen in wars
anastrophe wrote: what it boils down to for me is, why do you care? why this absolutely overarching fixation on any and all errors, failures, wrongs, deceptions that the U.S. may have committed over apparently the last 100 years?Again, you divert the thread but traduce my motives to the point where I can't ignore them without defending myself.
I care, quite simply, because I want my liberal values to survive, for my children to have a place in a free world.
I think the attack on Liberal America began long before the second World War, anastrophe, but that's the point where I see the deliberate ambition toward Empire crystalize. Two strands have entwined through America's history from that point. At one end, Senator Joseph McCarthy and his assistant Nixon, whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of Communism; at the other, Cheney and Rumsfeld whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of aliens in general. Linked perpetually with that strand, there are those who hooted down McCarthy, who forced Nixon from office by the application of the law, and who currently have an uphill struggle against an increasingly totalitarian regime in Washington. I may not have been born there but by crikey, I'm under its shadow, along with the rest of humanity.
To borrow inspirational words, freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when America will be joined as one in a peaceful and hopeful globe. When that day finally comes, as it will, American Liberals can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines from the moment they chose Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness as their guiding principle.
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
I care, quite simply, because I want my liberal values to survive, for my children to have a place in a free world.
I think the attack on Liberal America began long before the second World War, anastrophe, but that's the point where I see the deliberate ambition toward Empire crystalize. Two strands have entwined through America's history from that point. At one end, Senator Joseph McCarthy and his assistant Nixon, whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of Communism; at the other, Cheney and Rumsfeld whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of aliens in general. Linked perpetually with that strand, there are those who hooted down McCarthy, who forced Nixon from office by the application of the law, and who currently have an uphill struggle against an increasingly totalitarian regime in Washington. I may not have been born there but by crikey, I'm under its shadow, along with the rest of humanity.
To borrow inspirational words, freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when America will be joined as one in a peaceful and hopeful globe. When that day finally comes, as it will, American Liberals can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines from the moment they chose Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness as their guiding principle.
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Bad things happen in wars
spot wrote: Again, you divert the thread but traduce my motives to the point where I can't ignore them without defending myself.
I care, quite simply, because I want my liberal values to survive, for my children to have a place in a free world.
I think the attack on Liberal America began long before the second World War, anastrophe, but that's the point where I see the deliberate ambition toward Empire crystalize. Two strands have entwined through America's history from that point. At one end, Senator Joseph McCarthy and his assistant Nixon, whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of Communism; at the other, Cheney and Rumsfeld whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of aliens in general. Linked perpetually with that strand, there are those who hooted down McCarthy, who forced Nixon from office by the application of the law, and who currently have an uphill struggle against an increasingly totalitarian regime in Washington. I may not have been born there but by crikey, I'm under its shadow, along with the rest of humanity.
To borrow inspirational words, freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when America will be joined as one in a peaceful and hopeful globe. When that day finally comes, as it will, American Liberals can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines from the moment they chose Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness as their guiding principle.
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
quite simply, no, you are not an american, any more than i'm eating bangers and mash right now. do you have US citizenship? no? then bugger off.
American "Liberals" are an utterly lost faction of wackos in this country. they are at the front lines alright, the front lines of a completely failed ideology. You seem to feel kin with them. great. you seem to believe communism isn't an utterly failed ideology. great. let me know when you find your tinfoil hat.
your little nation has nuclear weapons. one of the few such nations on this earth. your little nation is as much a threat to world peace as the U.S. on that basis. you could destroy virtually all life on the planet if your nuclear weapons were deployed.
your fixation on the U.S. is a convenient way of ignoring your own problems. physician, heal thyself. get your own house in order, then come knocking on our door with broom in hand.
I care, quite simply, because I want my liberal values to survive, for my children to have a place in a free world.
I think the attack on Liberal America began long before the second World War, anastrophe, but that's the point where I see the deliberate ambition toward Empire crystalize. Two strands have entwined through America's history from that point. At one end, Senator Joseph McCarthy and his assistant Nixon, whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of Communism; at the other, Cheney and Rumsfeld whipping up and exploiting the public's fear of aliens in general. Linked perpetually with that strand, there are those who hooted down McCarthy, who forced Nixon from office by the application of the law, and who currently have an uphill struggle against an increasingly totalitarian regime in Washington. I may not have been born there but by crikey, I'm under its shadow, along with the rest of humanity.
To borrow inspirational words, freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when America will be joined as one in a peaceful and hopeful globe. When that day finally comes, as it will, American Liberals can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines from the moment they chose Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness as their guiding principle.
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
quite simply, no, you are not an american, any more than i'm eating bangers and mash right now. do you have US citizenship? no? then bugger off.
American "Liberals" are an utterly lost faction of wackos in this country. they are at the front lines alright, the front lines of a completely failed ideology. You seem to feel kin with them. great. you seem to believe communism isn't an utterly failed ideology. great. let me know when you find your tinfoil hat.
your little nation has nuclear weapons. one of the few such nations on this earth. your little nation is as much a threat to world peace as the U.S. on that basis. you could destroy virtually all life on the planet if your nuclear weapons were deployed.
your fixation on the U.S. is a convenient way of ignoring your own problems. physician, heal thyself. get your own house in order, then come knocking on our door with broom in hand.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Bad things happen in wars
spot wrote: To borrow inspirational words, freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when America will be joined as one in a peaceful and hopeful globe. When that day finally comes, as it will, American Liberals can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines from the moment they chose Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness as their guiding principle.
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
emphasis mine. you might try working at consistency in your proclamations. by your borrowed words, you are not a free man.
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
emphasis mine. you might try working at consistency in your proclamations. by your borrowed words, you are not a free man.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Bad things happen in wars
anastrophe wrote: quite simply, no, you are not an american, any more than i'm eating bangers and mash right now. do you have US citizenship? no? then bugger off.
American "Liberals" are an utterly lost faction of wackos in this country. they are at the front lines alright, the front lines of a completely failed ideology. You seem to feel kin with them. great. you seem to believe communism isn't an utterly failed ideology. great. let me know when you find your tinfoil hat.
your little nation has nuclear weapons. one of the few such nations on this earth. your little nation is as much a threat to world peace as the U.S. on that basis. you could destroy virtually all life on the planet if your nuclear weapons were deployed.
your fixation on the U.S. is a convenient way of ignoring your own problems. physician, heal thyself. get your own house in order, then come knocking on our door with broom in hand.There's that old fashioned Yankee arrogance we're known for now! Anastrophe is far too intelligent to fire off Ann Coulter diatribes against Britons that have the audacity to not bow in submission to US self loving chest beating.
American "Liberals" are an utterly lost faction of wackos in this country. they are at the front lines alright, the front lines of a completely failed ideology. You seem to feel kin with them. great. you seem to believe communism isn't an utterly failed ideology. great. let me know when you find your tinfoil hat.
your little nation has nuclear weapons. one of the few such nations on this earth. your little nation is as much a threat to world peace as the U.S. on that basis. you could destroy virtually all life on the planet if your nuclear weapons were deployed.
your fixation on the U.S. is a convenient way of ignoring your own problems. physician, heal thyself. get your own house in order, then come knocking on our door with broom in hand.There's that old fashioned Yankee arrogance we're known for now! Anastrophe is far too intelligent to fire off Ann Coulter diatribes against Britons that have the audacity to not bow in submission to US self loving chest beating.
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Bad things happen in wars
David813 wrote: There's that old fashioned Yankee arrogance we're known for now! Anastrophe is far too intelligent to fire off Ann Coulter diatribes against Britons that have the audacity to not bow in submission to US self loving chest beating.
yes, well, damn me for speaking my mind. you'd never speak your mind, now would you david!
yes, well, damn me for speaking my mind. you'd never speak your mind, now would you david!
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Bad things happen in wars
anastrophe wrote: yes, well, damn me for speaking my mind. you'd never speak your mind, now would you david!I am demure, careful with my judgments and unbelievably brilliant. I feel sorrow for those that lack these blessings.:yh_giggle
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
Bad things happen in wars
David813 wrote: I am demure, careful with my judgments and unbelievably brilliant. I feel sorrow for those that lack these blessings.:yh_giggle
:yh_rotfl
Why don't we just call this "bad things happen" or better yet "sh_t happens"
:yh_rotfl
Why don't we just call this "bad things happen" or better yet "sh_t happens"
Bad things happen in wars
koan wrote: :yh_rotfl
Why don't we just call this "bad things happen" or better yet "sh_t happens"I CONCUR!!! (And let's fence off the rightists. They're annoying and distracting and I'm outta RAID!!!)
Why don't we just call this "bad things happen" or better yet "sh_t happens"I CONCUR!!! (And let's fence off the rightists. They're annoying and distracting and I'm outta RAID!!!)
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
Bad things happen in wars
posted by spot
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
I know you were quoting but good grief man have you no ambition?
We arra peepul (well known glasgow philosopher I. Ispissed)
All wars are a bad idea whatever the reason. They should be a last ultimate resort when all else has fails. Using warfare as a deliberate part of foreign poolicy used to be called imperialism.
What concerns me about the US is that now realpolitik has become the order of the day for your political leaders and in so doing have convinced americans it is justified and morally right. That I think is unamerican.
realpolitik // n.
politics based on realities and material needs, rather than on morals or ideals.
[German] Ah good old Bismarck
While we're at it I am not too convinced about european governments either.
All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of America, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "I am an American".
I know you were quoting but good grief man have you no ambition?
We arra peepul (well known glasgow philosopher I. Ispissed)
All wars are a bad idea whatever the reason. They should be a last ultimate resort when all else has fails. Using warfare as a deliberate part of foreign poolicy used to be called imperialism.
What concerns me about the US is that now realpolitik has become the order of the day for your political leaders and in so doing have convinced americans it is justified and morally right. That I think is unamerican.
realpolitik // n.
politics based on realities and material needs, rather than on morals or ideals.
[German] Ah good old Bismarck
While we're at it I am not too convinced about european governments either.
Bad things happen in wars
anastrophe wrote: emphasis mine. you might try working at consistency in your proclamations. by your borrowed words, you are not a free man.I'll pass that on to JFK as soon as I see him again.
You've just reduced the number of Berliners on the planet by quite a few.
I thought speeches like that were taught in schools?
You've just reduced the number of Berliners on the planet by quite a few.
I thought speeches like that were taught in schools?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
posted by anastrophe
emphasis mine. you might try working at consistency in your proclamations. by your borrowed words, you are not a free man.
Since you feel that way about it why don't you use your own language instead of pinching ours. :sneaky:
emphasis mine. you might try working at consistency in your proclamations. by your borrowed words, you are not a free man.
Since you feel that way about it why don't you use your own language instead of pinching ours. :sneaky:
Bad things happen in wars
gmc wrote: I know you were quoting but good grief man have you no ambition?
We arra peepulYou need a severly bent imagination to see JFK stood on a soapbox outside a pub in the Gorbals saying that! The nearest I got was the rather more up-market Sauchiehall Street. Very European, I thought, the architecture.
So... back to the topic. Bad things happen in wars; the Scots; Butcher Cumberland; actually, what springs to mind is the Covenanters marching barefoot in the snow to come down on the English as day broke. One of the great moments in history, the defence of the covenant.
Most of what I know of Scotland I learned from the novels of S.R. Crockett - the Black Douglas, the Moss-Troopers, the Grey Man. Did you ever read any?
We arra peepulYou need a severly bent imagination to see JFK stood on a soapbox outside a pub in the Gorbals saying that! The nearest I got was the rather more up-market Sauchiehall Street. Very European, I thought, the architecture.
So... back to the topic. Bad things happen in wars; the Scots; Butcher Cumberland; actually, what springs to mind is the Covenanters marching barefoot in the snow to come down on the English as day broke. One of the great moments in history, the defence of the covenant.
Most of what I know of Scotland I learned from the novels of S.R. Crockett - the Black Douglas, the Moss-Troopers, the Grey Man. Did you ever read any?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
The people who are anti-war are not, in my opinion of this thread, 'anti-American bashers' nor are they stating they hate the soldiers as people. Nobody, except the ignorant, would say that they don't have respect and appreciation for those who bravely have, and will today, fight for the freedom of their family and country.
There is an important point which I think has so far not been explored. Some anti-war advocates mistakenly state that "Americans are murdererous war mongers" and the misjudged response is often "You're a traitor - we are fighting for your freedom".
The truth is that there are manipulative or deceptive leaders who promote this division of sides into pro- and anti-war . Why? Because then nobody steps away from this debate to see that they are both being used as combatants - thanks to the generous help of the mass media. Bogus "left-wing/right-wing" promotion, and many other ways they use to split us all into opposing camps allows the wars to flourish or wane at their whim. There is also positive leadership, but the danger of "cultish" behavior can form in those who believe their leader can do no wrong. Not one person is without faults, and they should not be ignored when they surface, especially so if they appear to us be serious. (Hitler is an example - nearly all the German people saw him as infallible - not that he WAS a 'positive' leader)
It should be obvious to everyone that we really DO all want the same basic ideals in life!! We need to look at ALL the information we can from every source available. Weed out the BS from the truth as much as possible. And we MUST be willing to change our long- standing beliefs, as hard as that may be, if we find they are not the truth.
There is an important point which I think has so far not been explored. Some anti-war advocates mistakenly state that "Americans are murdererous war mongers" and the misjudged response is often "You're a traitor - we are fighting for your freedom".
The truth is that there are manipulative or deceptive leaders who promote this division of sides into pro- and anti-war . Why? Because then nobody steps away from this debate to see that they are both being used as combatants - thanks to the generous help of the mass media. Bogus "left-wing/right-wing" promotion, and many other ways they use to split us all into opposing camps allows the wars to flourish or wane at their whim. There is also positive leadership, but the danger of "cultish" behavior can form in those who believe their leader can do no wrong. Not one person is without faults, and they should not be ignored when they surface, especially so if they appear to us be serious. (Hitler is an example - nearly all the German people saw him as infallible - not that he WAS a 'positive' leader)
It should be obvious to everyone that we really DO all want the same basic ideals in life!! We need to look at ALL the information we can from every source available. Weed out the BS from the truth as much as possible. And we MUST be willing to change our long- standing beliefs, as hard as that may be, if we find they are not the truth.
Bad things happen in wars
posted by Spot
You need a severly bent imagination to see JFK stood on a soapbox outside a pub in the Gorbals saying that! The nearest I got was the rather more up-market Sauchiehall Street. Very European, I thought, the architecture.
Well it is European city after all, built on tabacco, slaves and trade with the americas, just like Bristol.
posted by spot
So... back to the topic. Bad things happen in wars; the Scots; Butcher Cumberland; actually, what springs to mind is the Covenanters marching barefoot in the snow to come down on the English as day broke. One of the great moments in history, the defence of the covenant.
Most of what I know of Scotland I learned from the novels of S.R. Crockett - the Black Douglas, the Moss-Troopers, the Grey Man. Did you ever read any?
Not those ones no, but many others mnuch myth and legend is written about scotlan's wars. The reality is often quite depressing.
I got interested in history looking for the answer to one question, what would make someone stand in the line of battle ready to do or die. On one level it is an incredibly stupid thing to do but why do it for a king or anything other than immediate family? If you look at all wars, both sides always think they are in the right if it was just for money or wealth in Iraq the insurgents would just give up. Why did the ordinary Iraqui troops in the gulf war and the present one stand against the forces against them? Me I don't know and I disbelieve anyone who thinks there is a simple answer.
I actually think the first gulf war was the right thing to do to stop open aggression, ideally that would have been the time to kick out Saddam. Having not done so it would have been better to let the Iraguis sort out their own problems. Every time you go to war people die, just never the politicians, and the ones that actually do the fighting gain the least and lose the most from the conflict
There is no such thing as a limited war and politicians who think they can use military force in a limited manner are kidding themselves. The knock on effect from conflict is hard to predict.
You need a severly bent imagination to see JFK stood on a soapbox outside a pub in the Gorbals saying that! The nearest I got was the rather more up-market Sauchiehall Street. Very European, I thought, the architecture.
Well it is European city after all, built on tabacco, slaves and trade with the americas, just like Bristol.
posted by spot
So... back to the topic. Bad things happen in wars; the Scots; Butcher Cumberland; actually, what springs to mind is the Covenanters marching barefoot in the snow to come down on the English as day broke. One of the great moments in history, the defence of the covenant.
Most of what I know of Scotland I learned from the novels of S.R. Crockett - the Black Douglas, the Moss-Troopers, the Grey Man. Did you ever read any?
Not those ones no, but many others mnuch myth and legend is written about scotlan's wars. The reality is often quite depressing.
I got interested in history looking for the answer to one question, what would make someone stand in the line of battle ready to do or die. On one level it is an incredibly stupid thing to do but why do it for a king or anything other than immediate family? If you look at all wars, both sides always think they are in the right if it was just for money or wealth in Iraq the insurgents would just give up. Why did the ordinary Iraqui troops in the gulf war and the present one stand against the forces against them? Me I don't know and I disbelieve anyone who thinks there is a simple answer.
I actually think the first gulf war was the right thing to do to stop open aggression, ideally that would have been the time to kick out Saddam. Having not done so it would have been better to let the Iraguis sort out their own problems. Every time you go to war people die, just never the politicians, and the ones that actually do the fighting gain the least and lose the most from the conflict
There is no such thing as a limited war and politicians who think they can use military force in a limited manner are kidding themselves. The knock on effect from conflict is hard to predict.
Bad things happen in wars
Philadelphia Eagle;61924 wrote: I, and I suspect many others, find your anti-American, socialist rantings obnoxious and rude.
You obviously have an obsession with our military.
In America we are very proud of our many achievements.
You do not see us attacking your country's politics so why your obsessive interest in ours?
It's easy to throw stones at the person at the top of the pile but that's where we are and that's where we'll stay.
I note General Mattis is very much in the news again this week as front-runner for Secretary of Defense.
I commend the thread. None of it has dated in the slightest. General Mattis is a man without honor.
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet
You obviously have an obsession with our military.
In America we are very proud of our many achievements.
You do not see us attacking your country's politics so why your obsessive interest in ours?
It's easy to throw stones at the person at the top of the pile but that's where we are and that's where we'll stay.
I note General Mattis is very much in the news again this week as front-runner for Secretary of Defense.
I commend the thread. None of it has dated in the slightest. General Mattis is a man without honor.
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
He's issued an introductory text to the people he'll be in charge of.
Message to the Department of Defense from Secretary of Defense James Mattis
It’s good to be back and I’m grateful to serve alongside you as Secretary of Defense.
Together with the Intelligence Community we are the sentinels and guardians of our nation.
We need only look to you, the uniformed and civilian members of the Department and your families, to see the fundamental unity of our country.
You represent an America committed to the common good; an America that is never complacent about defending its freedoms; and an America that remains a steady beacon of hope for all mankind.
Every action we take will be designed to ensure our military is ready to fight today and in the future. Recognizing that no nation is secure without friends, we will work with the State Department to strengthen our alliances.
Further, we are devoted to gaining full value from every taxpayer dollar spent on defense, thereby earning the trust of Congress and the American people.
I am confident you will do your part. I pledge to you I’ll do my best as your Secretary.
MATTIS SENDS
Message to the Depart of Defense ~ Secretary of Defense James Mattis
That's wonderfully like the message this thread started with. I do hope he doesn't preside over yet more civilian bloodbaths like he did last time.
I just red it again, it really is smug repellent self-congratulatory garbage. Tell them to keep their honor bright, Jim.
Message to the Department of Defense from Secretary of Defense James Mattis
It’s good to be back and I’m grateful to serve alongside you as Secretary of Defense.
Together with the Intelligence Community we are the sentinels and guardians of our nation.
We need only look to you, the uniformed and civilian members of the Department and your families, to see the fundamental unity of our country.
You represent an America committed to the common good; an America that is never complacent about defending its freedoms; and an America that remains a steady beacon of hope for all mankind.
Every action we take will be designed to ensure our military is ready to fight today and in the future. Recognizing that no nation is secure without friends, we will work with the State Department to strengthen our alliances.
Further, we are devoted to gaining full value from every taxpayer dollar spent on defense, thereby earning the trust of Congress and the American people.
I am confident you will do your part. I pledge to you I’ll do my best as your Secretary.
MATTIS SENDS
Message to the Depart of Defense ~ Secretary of Defense James Mattis
That's wonderfully like the message this thread started with. I do hope he doesn't preside over yet more civilian bloodbaths like he did last time.
I just red it again, it really is smug repellent self-congratulatory garbage. Tell them to keep their honor bright, Jim.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
Being proud toi day "I'm an American" is rather interesting. Why do Americans put the maple leaf on their luggage when in Europe?? Why are they not considered popular in Europe? Why do people in Europe tell me they do not like Americans?
War is the pits. I like what Churchill said "War if necessary but not necessarily war" Sometimes as with Hitler we don't have much choice.
War is the pits. I like what Churchill said "War if necessary but not necessarily war" Sometimes as with Hitler we don't have much choice.
Bad things happen in wars
I was there in Operation Frequent Wind, and I can assure you that given the naval presence, there were more than a few Americans stuck in Saigon at the time.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Bad things happen in wars
That must have been quite a day to have witnessed.
The "that wasn't the end of the war" deflection ploy was in common use ten years ago, it made conversation pretty much impossible. Finding common ground takes two.
The "that wasn't the end of the war" deflection ploy was in common use ten years ago, it made conversation pretty much impossible. Finding common ground takes two.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
My ship was pretty far off the coast, but I recall walking on deck and seeing US naval ships as far as I could see littering the ocean. It was a massive presence. There were refugee camps set up in Guam and Midway - I forget which one we went to - I tend to think it was Guam. We assisted in the processing of refugees coming off the ships. I was just shy of my 19th birthday. I recall looking into the eyes of some of the people trying to get a sense of their plight. Lots of sadness and fear.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Bad things happen in wars
Was it allowed to have a camera with you in circumstances like that? I would assume people would want to keep a visual history of what they'd been doing in such dramatic circumstances.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
I note General Mattis has been touring Japan and South Korea.
"Mattis does not intend to broach the subject of host-nation payments towards supporting almost 50,000 US troops based in Japan."
I don't suppose he would. They have much the same local reputation as Trumpolini attributes to Mexicans crossing the border - murderers and rapists. There's a groundswell in Japan to have the bases closed and the occupying forces sent home. And yes, I can give references if asked. Try Tens of thousands protest on Okinawa to close key U.S. bases in Japan for example.
Quite why "the US also has 28,500 troops in South Korea, mostly ranged along the heavily armed border separating it from the North" I'm not sure. They're not a deterrent. If push came to shove they'd qualify more as hostages.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rms-mattis
"Mattis does not intend to broach the subject of host-nation payments towards supporting almost 50,000 US troops based in Japan."
I don't suppose he would. They have much the same local reputation as Trumpolini attributes to Mexicans crossing the border - murderers and rapists. There's a groundswell in Japan to have the bases closed and the occupying forces sent home. And yes, I can give references if asked. Try Tens of thousands protest on Okinawa to close key U.S. bases in Japan for example.
Quite why "the US also has 28,500 troops in South Korea, mostly ranged along the heavily armed border separating it from the North" I'm not sure. They're not a deterrent. If push came to shove they'd qualify more as hostages.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rms-mattis
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
spot;1506243 wrote: Was it allowed to have a camera with you in circumstances like that? I would assume people would want to keep a visual history of what they'd been doing in such dramatic circumstances.I had a camera and took pictures but don't know what happened to them. I had found a number of photos by others on the ships of what I described a few years ago online, but I can't seem to locate them now.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Bad things happen in wars
I note General Mattis has been dressing down NATO.
Mattis also told a meeting of defence ministers: “No longer can the American taxpayer carry a disproportionate share of the defence of western values. Americans cannot care more for your children’s future security than you do.â€
Trump has long argued that the US bears too large a share of the Nato financial burden and that the other member countries should at least meet the target of spending at least 2% of their national GDP on defence. Nato says only the US, UK, Poland, Estonia and Greece have met the target
Mattis tried to make his case by citing the threat from Moscow, noting Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region and Islamic State’s hold over parts of Iraq and Syria, and saying that “some in this alliance have looked away in denial of what is happeningâ€.
“Despite the threats from the east and south, we have failed to fill gaps in our Nato response force or to adapt,†he added.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... tary-trump
Perhaps the General should check what precisely the NATO Treaty obligations consist of. The Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Iraq is not a member of NATO. Syria is not a member of NATO. There is absolutely no obligation on any NATO member to join America in its foreign aggression.
Mattis also told a meeting of defence ministers: “No longer can the American taxpayer carry a disproportionate share of the defence of western values. Americans cannot care more for your children’s future security than you do.â€
Trump has long argued that the US bears too large a share of the Nato financial burden and that the other member countries should at least meet the target of spending at least 2% of their national GDP on defence. Nato says only the US, UK, Poland, Estonia and Greece have met the target
Mattis tried to make his case by citing the threat from Moscow, noting Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region and Islamic State’s hold over parts of Iraq and Syria, and saying that “some in this alliance have looked away in denial of what is happeningâ€.
“Despite the threats from the east and south, we have failed to fill gaps in our Nato response force or to adapt,†he added.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... tary-trump
Perhaps the General should check what precisely the NATO Treaty obligations consist of. The Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Iraq is not a member of NATO. Syria is not a member of NATO. There is absolutely no obligation on any NATO member to join America in its foreign aggression.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bad things happen in wars
Mattis tried to make his case by citing the threat from Moscow, noting Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region and Islamic State’s hold over parts of Iraq and Syria, and saying that “some in this alliance have looked away in denial of what is happeningâ€.
Bit rich seeing as his president didn't sem to know crimea had been annexed, let's hope they look at a map before they invade poland or somewhere else in europe by mistake.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/31/polit ... mea-putin/
Bad things happen in wars
gmc;1506698 wrote: let's hope they look at a map before they invade poland or somewhere else in europe by mistake. Not a matter to take lightly - the Poles were rather annoyed when it finally came to light that America's Mutually Assured Destruction planned step before targeting anywhere in Soviet Russia was to take out Warsaw just to show they were serious. With friends like that, who needs enemies.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.