Bad things happen in wars

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spot
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Bad things happen in wars

Post by spot »

Rather than allow the Wedding Party debacle to be forgotten, may we discuss it for a few minutes?

'"These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naive," Major General James Mattis, commander of the US 1st Marine Division, said. But he had no explanation of where the dead women and children in the video came from. "I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars," he said cryptically. "I don't have to apologise for the conduct of my men."

'General Mattis asked: "How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilisation?" Iraqis replied that the victims of the attack were holding the wedding in the village where they had lived all their lives.'

Let me quote these inspiring words from General Mattis' 1st Marine Division (REIN) Commanding General's Message to All Hands, March 2003: 'When I give you the word, together we will cross the Line of Departure, close with those forces that choose to fight, and destroy them. Our fight is not with the Iraqi people, nor is it with members of the Iraqi army who choose to surrender. While we will move swiftly and aggressively against those who resist, we will treat all others with decency, demonstrating chivalry and soldierly compassion for people who have endured a lifetime under Saddam's oppression.'

' [...] You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weapon. Share your courage with each other as we enter the uncertain terrain north of the Line of Departure. Keep faith in your comrades on your left and right and Marine Air overhead. Fight with a happy heart and strong spirit. For the mission's sake, our country's sake, and the sake of the men who carried the Division's colors in past battles — who fought for life and never lost their nerve — carry out your mission and keep your honor clean.'

I think an apology for the conduct of the General's command, at least, would be quite in order. All that is missing is a man of conscience.

Engage your brain, General, before you engage your weapon.

Let's not be naive.
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Bad things happen in wars

Post by john8pies »

Yep, it`s hard to believe, isn`t it? Mind you, it`s hard in a way to believe that after thousands of years in which millions of wars have cost zillions of life, some leaders would rather apparently engage in yet another war rather than try other ways of sorting things out.
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Post by Philadelphia Eagle »

You may not realize it Spot but you are talking to some of us who have actually 'been there, done that etc'

Many of your own countrymen are also in that category.

I can tell you from personal experience that 'armchair experts' are not the most popular of people with those who actually go and do the real job.
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Post by spot »

Of course I realize it, PE. You've told us, we've read it, we take it into consideration.

There seems to be a taboo, these days, along the lines of "the members of our Armed Forces are wonderful people, we admire them immensely for their potential sacrifice, let's applaud whenever they march by." Unpopular though it might be, I refuse to kow-tow to it. Taboos in general are lousy guides to morality. People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion. They had a choice to be useful members of society, and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines.

And General Mattis, among his peers, is a moral derelict on a larger scale than most.

Have you a pipe in which you can smoke that?
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Bad things happen in wars

Post by Philadelphia Eagle »

I, and I suspect many others, find your anti-American, socialist rantings obnoxious and rude.

You obviously have an obsession with our military.

In America we are very proud of our many achievements.

You do not see us attacking your country's politics so why your obsessive interest in ours?

It's easy to throw stones at the person at the top of the pile but that's where we are and that's where we'll stay.
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Post by spot »

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: I, and I suspect many others, find your anti-American, socialist rantings obnoxious and rude.That's supposed to deter me from expressing my opinion?

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: You obviously have an obsession with our military.Well what a surprise - this is, after all, the military that forces its presence most objectionably on so many parts of the world which might otherwise support Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: In America we are very proud of our many achievements.Have you no concept of how utterly unChristian that vile boast is?

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: You do not see us attacking your country's politics so why your obsessive interest in ours?Because your politics intrudes to such an extent on the life and well-being of the 96% of the population of the planet who aren't American. There are so many parallels between US foreign policy and cancer that I scarcely know where to begin explaining them to you.

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: It's easy to throw stones at the person at the top of the pile but that's where we are and that's where we'll stay.I've seen children play King of the Castle before, and it's a perfect analogy for your position. You get to stay at the top of the castle by pushing down the competition, which is just what I see happening. I prefer more co-operative games.
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Post by Jives »

spot wrote: There seems to be a taboo, these days, along the lines of "the members of our Armed Forces are wonderful people, we admire them immensely for their potential sacrifice, let's applaud whenever they march by."


Since they are risking their lives for you, that seems the courteous thing to do. Didn't your mother teach you that?

Unpopular though it might be, I refuse to kow-tow to it.


Thereby disrespecting your entire country and all the values it stands for.

People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion.


As opposed to you, a cowardly hypocrite who sits in his living room judging others and making no effort to help his country. The same country that has given him the freedom to spout this nonsense. Well, that's your right, won by these great people, and that right applies to all, even those as pathetic as yourself.

They had a choice to be useful members of society,


Useful.....as in defending THE VERY SOCIETY ITSELF. So how are you useful? You drink the hard-won privilges of society like a bloodsucking leech. Military people make it possible for you to sleep safely at night. They deserve the title of "citizen", you do not.

and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines.


Yes, I'm sure that dodging bullets and seeing their friends slaughtered and maimed is their favorite passtime. Sheesh! Do you actually believe this, you cowardly snake? People like you are the antithesis of decent, honest, men and women of integrity.

Have you a pipe in which you can smoke that?


It's quite apparent to me that you have been smoking something. Apparently something that would make you lose all faith in the values of your country and your family. Go ask your Grandfather what he thinks of your trash-talking slander of his generation. Without soldiers, you would currently be speaking German.

No.....that's not true. You would be dead, since the Nazis exterminated the genetically imperfect, and the metally unstable such as yourself. :wah:
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Post by Jives »

Say, Spot....shouldn't you have started this thread in the "Religion" forum? Since HATRED OF THE U.S. SEEMS TO BE YOUR RELIGION! :mad:
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Post by Jives »

spot wrote: Because your politics intrudes to such an extent on the life and well-being of the 96% of the population of the planet who aren't American. There are so many parallels between US foreign policy and cancer that I scarcely know where to begin explaining them to you..


Said the small bitter man sitting in the ruined ashes of a once great Empire on which the "Sun Never Set".

so your civilization is now a footnote in the back pages of history, so sorry for you. Our Civilization is reaching heights yours never heard of! (the Moon for example.)

While you're still trying to figure out your labor problems, we are reaching for the stars with Ion-drive engines.

Of course we're proud!

and of course you're.....JEALOUS! LOL! :wah:
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Post by spot »

Jives wrote: Since they are risking their lives for you, that seems the courteous thing to do. Didn't your mother teach you that?They are not risking their lives for me in the slightest, they are risking their lives for their political masters and for their generous pay packets. If any of them are acting under the misapprehension that they are risking their lives on my behalf, allow me to say, here and now, thank you for your misguided efforts but do, please, stop it.

Jives wrote: ... bloodsucking leech ... cowardly snake ...It is scarcely an hour, Jives, since I was described in this thread as rude. I refute that suggestion. I have been unfailingly polite to everyone here since I arrived.

Jives wrote: Without soldiers, you would currently be speaking German.That is perhaps the most widely-used cockamamie view of reality that military apologists drag out, these days. How you can dare equate what was done in the fight against Fascism with the self-interest of current times is a matter for your own conscience, not mine.
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Post by Jives »

spot wrote: They are not risking their lives for me in the slightest, they are risking their lives for their political masters and for their generous pay packets. If any of them are acting under the misapprehension that they are risking their lives on my behalf, allow me to say, here and now, thank you for your misguided efforts but do, please, stop it.


Without them, you would have no country.

I have been unfailingly polite to everyone here since I arrived.


Hmmm...aside from insulting the honor of every serviceman that ever lived, including my grandfather, father, and myself, and impugning the integrity of decent servicemen the world over, and dragging the values and morals of an entire generation through the mud, I'd say yes...you have been polite.

Oh! HAHAhAhhaahaha....I'm sorry, I couldn't say that with a straight face.

That is perhaps the most widely-used cockamamie view of reality that military apologists drag out, these days. How you can dare equate what was done in the fight against Fascism with the self-interest of current times is a matter for your own conscience, not mine.


The point remains, without the soldiers that you insult and degrade, vicious dictators can do what they will. Your army is all that stands between yourself and slavery to another government. I have a feeling that the North Koreans wouldn't mind annexing your little piece of real estate, if enough of your compatriots take a stance like yours.

Of course, you'll have to be "re-educated' , after which this discusion will have become a moot point.
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Post by spot »

Jives wrote: The point remains, without the soldiers that you insult and degrade, vicious dictators can do what they will. Your army is all that stands between yourself and slavery to another government.I have no problem with armies being employed for defense. When was the last time the US military was used for defense?

You field an offensive capability, you play away from home, you kill people in their own land and express surprise when anyone resists. What you chiefly lack, thanks to your sycophantic media, is a respectable objective view of your actions or motives.
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Post by spot »

Jives wrote: Hmmm...aside from insulting the honor of every serviceman that ever lived, including my grandfather, father, and myself, and impugning the integrity of decent servicemen the world over, and dragging the values and morals of an entire generation through the mud, I'd say yes...you have been polite.


The man who has insulted the honor of every serviceman that ever lived, including your grandfather, father, and yourself, and impugned the integrity of decent servicemen the world over, and dragged the values and morals of an entire generation through the mud, is, of course, the subject of this thread, General Mattis - it's why I mentioned him in the first place.

I'm referring, of course, to these words of his:

"Actually, it’s a lot of fun to fight. You know, it’s a hell of a hoot… It’s fun to shoot some people. I’ll be right upfront with you, I like brawling… You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn’t wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway. So it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

He gets paid a lot, he enjoys playing with noisy lethal weaponry, and he has no moral sense. Which is where I began.
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Post by Jives »

OK, now I've got you....

(Jives smiles to himself and rubs his hands together)

You don't like U.S. Military policy.

That's an entirely different thing. I even agree with yo on that point. I'm not a full-blown supporter of the War in Iraq, myself. I saw Afghanistan as justified, but I had moral problems with Iraq.

But you see.....what you attacked was not U.S. policy. You attacked the decent, honest men and women who carry out that policy. That is a serious, and egregious mistake.

In the words of your own Alfred Lord Tennyson:

The Charge Of The Light Brigade

Memorializing Events in the Battle of Balaclava, October 25, 1854

Written 1854

Half a league, half a league,

Half a league onward,

All in the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!

Charge for the guns!' he said:

Into the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'

Was there a man dismay'd ?

Not tho' the soldier knew

Some one had blunder'd:

Their's not to make reply,

Their's not to reason why,

Their's but to do and die:

Into the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon in front of them

Volley'd and thunder'd;

Storm'd at with shot and shell,

Boldly they rode and well,

Into the jaws of Death,

Into the mouth of Hell

Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,

Flash'd as they turn'd in air

Sabring the gunners there,

Charging an army, while

All the world wonder'd:

Plunged in the battery-smoke

Right thro' the line they broke;

Cossack and Russian

Reel'd from the sabre-stroke

Shatter'd and sunder'd.

Then they rode back, but not

Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon behind them

Volley'd and thunder'd;

Storm'd at with shot and shell,

While horse and hero fell,

They that had fought so well

Came thro' the jaws of Death,

Back from the mouth of Hell,

All that was left of them,

Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?

O the wild charge they made!

All the world wonder'd.

Honour the charge they made!

Honour the Light Brigade,

Noble six hundred!

In other words, disagree with the war, but honor the soldier!!! ;)
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Post by spot »

Jives wrote: In other words, disagree with the war, but honor the soldier!!! ;)I think my answer to this crossed in the post. Look back one message.

Tennyson was notorious for writing doggerel, after he became Poet Laureate. Have a look at The Revenge, if you don't believe me.
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Post by Jives »

OK, then, let's go back to the general: here's an exellent post by BTS:

Both the left and the right are wrong about Marine Corps Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis. He is neither the Jack Nicholson caricature of a Marine depicted in the 1992 movie A Few GoodMen nor the callous and mad eccentric depicted by George C. Scott in the 1970 movie Patton.

Instead, Gen. Mattis is a remarkably learned and thoughtful man who adheres to the old-fashioned Christian, chivalric warrior code. As such, he confounds modern-day screamers on both the left and the right for whom the warrior code is unintelligible. I know because I had the privilege of serving under Gen. Mattis as a Marine in Iraq.

Moreover, while we were both in-country the General graciously took the time to engage me in an exclusive half-hour conversation. At the time, I was trying to secure a commission as an officer. The General learned that my relatively advanced age (then 35) was posing a problem and offered to help. That a three-star general with a war on his hands would take the time to assist a lowly Lance Corporal speaks volumes about the heart and character of Gen. Mattis.



I SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN surprised. I had spent the spring and summer of 2003 with the First Battalion, Fourth Marine Regiment, at an abandoned pistol factory in Al Hillah, about 60 miles south of Baghdad. Gen. Mattis regularly showed up to speak with us. He would tell us colorful stories, offer tough-minded advice and counsel, and eagerly solicit our thoughts and questions. We loved him because we knew he loved us.

And Gen. Mattis didn't just talk the talk; he walked the walk. He led from the front. Indeed, on at least one occasion that I know of, the General was bloodied from a firefight or improvised explosive device while out on patrol with junior, enlisted Marines one-third his age. That's what makes Gen. Mattis such a great warrior: He truly respects and cares for his Marines.

"Guardiano," he told me, "I don't give a damn about the officers. If they don't like what they're doing, they can get on a plane and leave the Corps -- go back where they came from. But I do care deeply about those 18- and 19-year-old Lance Corporals out on the frontlines." The General was telling me that, as an officer, I better be concerned with helping younger, junior Marines, not advancing my own career.

That's why all the liberal talk about Mattis being some sort of "psychopathic killer" is so ludicrous. Nor is he, as the conservative talk-show set would have it, an inhumane "fighting machine." Psychopathic killers don't care for their men; and machines don't exhibit compassion for a liberated but frightened people.

Yet, I am absolutely convinced that whenever a Marine died or bled, a part of Gen. Mattis died and bled, too. And whenever an innocent Iraqi was intimidated, beaten or shot, Gen. Mattis was incensed and outraged. But because of our modern-day cultural depravity, we lack the basic vocabulary necessary to identify and understand, let alone appreciate and celebrate, warriors like Gen. Mattis.



HOW, THEN, TO EXPLAIN the General's comment that it is "fun to shoot some people"? Is not such a sentiment "indicative of an apparent indifference to the value of human life," as the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) argues?

Unfortunately for the council and other professional grievance lobbies, context is everything, especially when it come to war and killing. Gen. Mattis clearly did not say he likes killing for killing's sake. Instead, like most Marines, he enjoys fighting for a righteous cause. He enjoys a good "brawl," especially when it involve shooting vermin who subjugate, beat, and abuse women.

Moreover, if the critics bothered actually to listen to Gen. Mattis's remarks -- which you can do online at NBC's San Diego affiliate website -- they would realize that he was calling for an investment in so-called soft-power resources that would help to avert combat. He was saying, in effect: "Look, I love a good fight and would enjoy shooting and killing these bastards; but we need to do the things that will make that unnecessary."

The General was speaking at a professional conference on military transformation; and he was urging the Pentagon to invest in efforts that would "diminish the conditions that drive people to sign up for these kinds of insurgencies."

None of the widely touted new technologies and weapons systems, he noted, "would have helped me in the last three years [in Iraq and Afghanistan]. But I could have used cultural training [and] language training. I could have used more products from American universities [who] understood the world does not revolve around America and [who] embrace coalitions and allies for all of the strengths that they bring us."

That sure doesn't sound like the fanatical Col. Kurtz of Apocalypse Now.



GEN. MATTIS ALSO IMPLICITLY took exception to conservative defense analysts like Weekly Standard contributor Thomas Donnelly, who seem to think that increasing the size of the Army and Marine Corps will solve most of our military challenges. But a larger -- and thus more bureaucratic -- force structure may be exactly what is not needed to win the war against Islamic fascism.

As the General explained, "We're seeing a re-criminalization of war. And that means we need to get small units, not big armies... Small units so capable that, as we close with the enemy, they're transformed into something that is as capable as our air units and sea units have been in shutting down the threats to this country over the last 30 years."

Some critics have alleged that Gen. Mattis's' comments reflect a dangerous military mindset that gave rise to the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. However, for any of the Marines who served under him, it is impossible to imagine a scandal like Abu Ghraib happening on the General's watch.

That's because Gen. Mattis always made it his business to know what was happening in his command; and he did not tolerate stupidity and abuse by his Marines. We all understood this because he communicated well and often his expectations. Those expectations included his demand to "keep your honor clean" and to treat the Iraqis "as you would your own family, with dignity and respect."

Let's hope this reality is included in the movie, destined to come, about Gen. Mattis, the Marine Corps, and Iraq. This would be a refreshing change from Hollywood's recent depictions of the U.S. military. And it would rightly honor a man and a warrior who is truly an American hero.



John R. Guardiano is an Arlington, Virginia-based journalist and proud (reserve) member of the United States military.
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Post by spot »

If we're going to trade other people's opinions, I was quite impressed by this one...

The new ugly American

by Tess Ellis, Unknown News

May 28, 2004

When those in the future look back at this time in history, they can't help but be appalled at the ignorance of those who orchestrated the debacle in Iraq. Not to mention horrified by the total disregard shown for the lives of the people there and their culture.

Following a week of nonstop pictures showing our soldiers cruelly mistreating prisoners, most of whom were randomly detained and denied all legal rights, that ignorant disregard for the lives of Iraqi citizens hit it's zenith with the military strike on the members of a wedding party.

The attack was justified by Major-General James Mattis, Commander of the 1st Marine Division, who said "How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles [16 kilometers] from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilization?"

He went on to say, "These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naïve."

Naïve? Major-General Mattis, are you married?

Did you have a big wedding? All your family, friends, and important "business connections"? A couple hundred people would only be a medium-sized affair. Maybe you kept expenses down, and only invited your immediate family and closest friends. A small group of 50 or so.

Did you marry young? Maybe in that small group of friends and family that attended your wedding, were there a couple dozen men of "military-age"? Maybe even actually IN the military since that is your chosen career?

Do you have children, Mattis? Have you walked your daughter down the aisle in front of all the people you hold dear? How would you feel if they were seen as a threat, showered with bombs as they slept afterwards, mowed down as they fled the carnage?

And where are you from, Mattis? A large city? Or somewhere out in the country? If you live in a rural area, are you going to go to some big unfamiliar city and rent a hall at the Hilton? Or are you going to hold the affair in a local church, or in someone's yard?

How pompous can you be, Major-General Mattis, to ask who holds a wedding 80 miles from nowhere, 10 miles from the Syrian border? Could it be people who've lived there for generations, and perhaps want to go on living their lives as they have for generations BEFORE we invaded their country and "liberated" them? Could it be tribal people who can't leave their herds to travel the 80 miles over dangerous American occupied territory to what you consider "civilization" far away from their family and friends, to celebrate a cherished moment in their lives?

How can the man who is the head of this family feel? He arranged a marriage between his son and a girl from another tribe, along with the union of one of his nieces and a young man from that tribe at the same time. Relatives came from miles away, including those who lived across the border in Syria. They hired the most popular wedding singer in Iraq, and his band to entertain the guests. The wedding singer and his cousin who played the organ were killed in the attack. As were 27 members of this man's family, and almost 20 more of their guests.

How would you feel, Major-General Mattis, if it were YOUR son's wedding? How would you feel if your wife was killed, along with some of your children and grandchildren? Because you lived "80 miles from nowhere" and had "2 dozen men of military-age" in attendance?

What qualifies you to lead the 1st Marine division in Iraq when you are so ignorant about the Iraqi people?

Yes, there are questions about the village involved being tied to smugglers and Mujahadeen. But you know what, Major-General Mattis? If the United States had been invaded and was occupied, I would do everything I could to fight the invaders.

AND SO WOULD YOU.

What gives Brigadier-General Mark Kimmit the right to say "Bad people have parties too" as a way of justifying killing 40 people, including 15 children under 14, attacking them while they slept?

What moral authority do we have to judge these people as "bad"?

You think its right to kill them because they have tried to carry on their lives in a somewhat normal fashion, and that they are also PERHAPS trying to defend their country and way of life?

Remember that song?

"And I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.

And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.

And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today...."

I'll defend this country with you anytime we're attacked by another country, Major-General Mattis.

But I won't defend you killing people in a country we attacked who are trying to defend theirs.

Just like Lee Greenwood, I'm proud to be an American.

That means I value American rights, AND the rights of those in other countries.

Don't kill people out of ignorance and claim to do it in my name.
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Post by Jives »

Your source is someone divorced from the situation, my source actually met and talked with the man.

I win. ;)
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Post by spot »

Jives wrote: I win. ;)This isn't a game, Jives, and there are no winners. There are dead bodies of innocent men, women and children, and there's a man in charge who should express shame for his orders.

You seem to have no empathy at all for what was suffered. This is a bit of background - again, quoted, and I prefer not to quote much, but you simply have no idea of the agony involved behind your posturing.

'US soldiers started to shoot us, one by one'

Survivors describe wedding massacre as generals refuse to apologise

Rory McCarthy in Ramadi

Friday May 21, 2004

The Guardian

The wedding feast was finished and the women had just led the young bride and groom away to their marriage tent for the night when Haleema Shihab heard the first sounds of the fighter jets screeching through the sky above.

It was 10.30pm in the remote village of Mukaradeeb by the Syrian border and the guests hurried back to their homes as the party ended. As sister-in-law of the groom, Mrs Shihab, 30, was to sleep with her husband and children in the house of the wedding party, the Rakat family villa. She was one of the few in the house who survived the night.

"The bombing started at 3am," she said yesterday from her bed in the emergency ward at Ramadi general hospital, 60 miles west of Baghdad. "We went out of the house and the American soldiers started to shoot us. They were shooting low on the ground and targeting us one by one," she said. She ran with her youngest child in her arms and her two young boys, Ali and Hamza, close behind. As she crossed the fields a shell exploded close to her, fracturing her legs and knocking her to the ground.

She lay there and a second round hit her on the right arm. By then her two boys lay dead. "I left them because they were dead," she said. One, she saw, had been decapitated by a shell.

"I fell into the mud and an American soldier came and kicked me. I pretended to be dead so he wouldn't kill me. My youngest child was alive next to me."

Mrs Shibab's description, backed by other witnesses, of an attack on a sleeping village is at odds with the American claim that they came under fire while targeting a suspected foreign fighter safe house.

She described how in the hours before dawn she watched as American troops destroyed the Rakat villa and the house next door, reducing the buildings to rubble.

Another relative carried Mrs Shihab and her surviving child to hospital. There she was told her husband Mohammed, the eldest of the Rakat sons, had also died.

As Mrs Shihab spoke she gestured with hands still daubed red-brown with the henna the women had used to decorate themselves for the wedding. Alongside her in the ward yesterday were three badly injured girls from the Rakat family: Khalood Mohammed, aged just a year and struggling for breath, Moaza Rakat, 12, and Iqbal Rakat, 15, whose right foot doctors had already amputated.

By the time the sun rose on Wednesday over the Rakat family house, the raid had claimed 42 lives, according to Hamdi Noor al-Alusi, manager of the al-Qaim general hospital, the nearest to the village.

Among the dead were 27 members of the extended Rakat family, their wedding guests and even the band of musicians hired to play at the ceremony, among them Hussein al-Ali from Ramadi, one of the most popular singers in western Iraq.

Dr Alusi said 11 of the dead were women and 14 were children. "I want to know why the Americans targeted this small village," he said by telephone. "These people are my patients. I know each one of them. What has caused this disaster?"
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spot wrote: You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?get your facts straight. you have been yammering on endlessly about minute details of the pat tillman case, to apparently build a case for the evilness of all that is the united states military.



so get your facts straight on the above. it is not the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam.



Because your politics intrudes to such an extent on the life and well-being of the 96% of the population of the planet who aren't American. bollocks. there's about six billion people on earth. more than a billion are chinese. nearly a billion are Indians. so there's 33.3% of the world's population that is barely touched by our politics (well, to be fair, india gains a tremendous amount of domestic revenue from american companies outsourcing labor to their country, and trade with china is not insignificant either - but of course, those are cases of dealings with america that are *positive*, and since america has no positive influence in the world by your narrow vision, those things quite simply don't exist).





There are so many parallels between US foreign policy and cancer that I scarcely know where to begin explaining them to you.yes. cancer is well known for providing hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to people who suffered through a catastrophic tsunami. and of course, cancer is also well known for sending aircraft carriers to the region in support of immediate aid to those afflicted, in order to get food, water, and supplies to them in the critical days immediately after the disaster, unlike *any other nation on earth*. and cancer of course came to the aid of europe in world war II, aid without which you likely would never have survived that flower of blooming health hitler. and cancer of course helped rebuild europe. and cancer of course brought the soviet union to its knees, brought down the berlin wall allowing millions who were in chains to be freed.



now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.





I've seen children play King of the Castle before, and it's a perfect analogy for your position. You get to stay at the top of the castle by pushing down the competition, which is just what I see happening. I prefer more co-operative games.if you were interested in cooperative games, you wouldn't be taking every opportunity possible to slam the United States in any manner you can. Rather you'd be spending equal time railing against your own country's policies, and looking to discuss the nature of internation relations.



your actions are those of the classic Troll.
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Post by Jives »

The "Wedding party" guests were terrorists and terrorist collaborators. They were funneling fighters and weapons across the border. They got what they deserved. Their pathetic attempt to turn it into a media event will only fool those already predisposed to hate America.

Interestingly, arms smuggling and terrorist attacks in that section of the country decreased drastically after that strike. Coincidence? I think not. ;)
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Post by spot »

Jives wrote: The "Wedding party" guests were terrorists and terrorist collaborators. They were funneling fighters and weapons across the border. They got what they deserved. Their pathetic attempt to turn it into a media event will only fool those already predisposed to hate America.


I thought you prefered a source undivorced from the situation. Rory McCarthy actually met and talked with the survivors. Read the words and weep.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: so get your facts straight on the above. it is not the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam.What???

May 5, 2005: Thirty years ago, Americans were transfixed by the chaotic images flickering across their TV screens. Hordes of frantic South Vietnamese men, women and children desperately clinging to the U.S. Embassy fence in Saigon, pleading for escape. Chinook helicopters teetering precariously on the embassy roof, evacuating the last Americans even as North Vietnamese Communist Army tanks rolled into the outskirts of the city. Huey gunships, the very symbol of American combat power in Vietnam, commandeered by fleeing South Vietnamese Army pilots, either ditched into the sea or pushed overboard from the decks of crowded American aircraft carriers.



They weren't military?

You had guys who stayed longer??

I think that's pretty anniversarial.
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Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: What???



May 5, 2005: Thirty years ago, Americans were transfixed by the chaotic images flickering across their TV screens. Hordes of frantic South Vietnamese men, women and children desperately clinging to the U.S. Embassy fence in Saigon, pleading for escape. Chinook helicopters teetering precariously on the embassy roof, evacuating the last Americans even as North Vietnamese Communist Army tanks rolled into the outskirts of the city. Huey gunships, the very symbol of American combat power in Vietnam, commandeered by fleeing South Vietnamese Army pilots, either ditched into the sea or pushed overboard from the decks of crowded American aircraft carriers.



They weren't military?
i usually don't resort to this sort of thing, but can you read? i mean, really. you've just quoted the above, and yet your blinders seem to prevent you from actually taking note of what was written.





You had guys who stayed longer??


back to history 101. once you've looked up the facts properly, come back and report to us. that woudl be great.

I think that's pretty anniversarial.
only to trolls who see everything as "evil america".



okay, i'll give you a tiny hint, since you are so blind you will not see: search on "1973". okay? cheerio.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: back to history 101. once you've looked up the facts properly, come back and report to us. that woudl be great... okay, i'll give you a tiny hint, since you are so blind you will not see: search on "1973". okay? cheerio.


I'm not playing that game, anastrophe - if you know something relevant, you come out with it. There was a peace treaty signed in 1973, the US military spent the following two years in-country continuing to advise the US-backed army of South Vietnam, and the US military finally pulled out of Vietnam at the end of April 1975.

I'd call that the 30th anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam, even if you don't.
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spot wrote: I'm not playing that game, anastrophe - if you know something relevant, you come out with it. There was a peace treaty signed in 1973, the US military spent the following two years in-country continuing to advise the US-backed army of South Vietnam, and the US military finally pulled out of Vietnam at the end of April 1975.



I'd call that the 30th anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam, even if you don't.
pull your head from your arse. The US military exited vietnam in 1973. this is not even a stretch. the US embassy had a small contingent of marines onsite, standard operating procedure around the world.



saigon was taken by the viet cong in 1975. two years after the US military pulled out. you want to spin it to your myopic view of the world, fine. have fun. warp history for your needs. america is the soul of evil, the UK is a shining light of righteousness.



i'm about ready to put you on my 'ignore' list, as you are a Troll, pure and simple. i'd recommend others who are interested in actual *discussion* do the same. spot is here to 'point out' the evil of america, brave and righteous soul that he is. there is no counter argument of course, and i've yet to read a solitary positive word about america from this Troll. so "ignore" is the best course of action.
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Post by capt_buzzard »

anastrophe wrote: get your facts straight. you have been yammering on endlessly about minute details of the pat tillman case, to apparently build a case for the evilness of all that is the united states military.



so get your facts straight on the above. it is not the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of the US military from Vietnam.



bollocks. there's about six billion people on earth. more than a billion are chinese. nearly a billion are Indians. so there's 33.3% of the world's population that is barely touched by our politics (well, to be fair, india gains a tremendous amount of domestic revenue from american companies outsourcing labor to their country, and trade with china is not insignificant either - but of course, those are cases of dealings with america that are *positive*, and since america has no positive influence in the world by your narrow vision, those things quite simply don't exist).



yes. cancer is well known for providing hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to people who suffered through a catastrophic tsunami. and of course, cancer is also well known for sending aircraft carriers to the region in support of immediate aid to those afflicted, in order to get food, water, and supplies to them in the critical days immediately after the disaster, unlike *any other nation on earth*. and cancer of course came to the aid of europe in world war II, aid without which you likely would never have survived that flower of blooming health hitler. and cancer of course helped rebuild europe. and cancer of course brought the soviet union to its knees, brought down the berlin wall allowing millions who were in chains to be freed.



now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.



if you were interested in cooperative games, you wouldn't be taking every opportunity possible to slam the United States in any manner you can. Rather you'd be spending equal time railing against your own country's policies, and looking to discuss the nature of internation relations.



your actions are those of the classic Troll.Bollocks. I did not think that Americans understood the meaning of this language Paul:D
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Post by anastrophe »

anastrophe wrote:

yes. cancer is well known for providing hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to people who suffered through a catastrophic tsunami. and of course, cancer is also well known for sending aircraft carriers to the region in support of immediate aid to those afflicted, in order to get food, water, and supplies to them in the critical days immediately after the disaster, unlike *any other nation on earth*. and cancer of course came to the aid of europe in world war II, aid without which you likely would never have survived that flower of blooming health hitler. and cancer of course helped rebuild europe. and cancer of course brought the soviet union to its knees, brought down the berlin wall allowing millions who were in chains to be freed.



now, all that jingoism aside, does US foreign policy have a dark side? a bad side? of course. there's scarcely a country on earth that doesn't have foreign policies that are 'wrong'. it's in the nature of the beast. each country looks out for its own self-interests, the interests of its people, and not uncommonly, those interests conflict with the interests of people in other countries. as a reference, you might be interested in reviewing your own country's history in that regard. you know, british imperialism, enslaving entire nations so you can have your afternoon tea.



if you were interested in cooperative games, you wouldn't be taking every opportunity possible to slam the United States in any manner you can. Rather you'd be spending equal time railing against your own country's policies, and looking to discuss the nature of internation relations.



your actions are those of the classic Troll.
case in point: the Troll completely ignored this large part of my post. wouldn't go near it. no rebuttal, no comment, nothing. would have had to acknowledge that the US is not the sole evil force on earth. doesn't fit with already hard-coded ideology that US is Pure Evil.



challenge: write ONE SINGLE SENTENCE spot, that overtly, and honestly, acknowledges that the US has done something, anything, at any time, that is not evil.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: challenge: write ONE SINGLE SENTENCE spot, that overtly, and honestly, acknowledges that the US has done something, anything, at any time, that is not evil.You'll give me a while, perhaps? My kettle's boiling, and I'll lose the hot water already in the bath if I don't go and use it now.
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spot wrote: You'll give me a while, perhaps? My kettle's boiling, and I'll lose the hot water already in the bath if I don't go and use it now.
yeah, right. if your view weren't 100% myopic, you could have written, in less than ten seconds, "america did a great thing in selflessly helping the tsunami victims" - simply culling from my post a throwaway a couple of 'kind words'.



fact: what will boil is not your water, but your loathing for all things having to do with the United States, if you are forced to lie and say something positive about us. oh, i figure you'll probably drop that one sentence in here, just for show. then you'll resume attempting to turn every topic into a platform for your "I Hate America" screeds.



in the words of Tony Blair, your efforts here will amount to a damp squib, as long as i'm around.
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Post by koan »

I think if somebody hates war they should spend less time insulting soldiers and governments and more time thinking about alternate solutions. What have you done to end war, Spot? Other than talk about how much it sucks.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: pull your head from your arse. The US military exited vietnam in 1973. this is not even a stretch. the US embassy had a small contingent of marines onsite, standard operating procedure around the world. OK, let's close this one down if we can. I've been reading what I hope is a neutral site, http://www.vietnamwar.com/Timeline69-75.htm

April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.

Now, either we say the end of bombing Cambodia in August 1973 is the end of the Vietnam war, or we say that this is, it's semantics at this point. For me, that's a lot of advisers and CIA operatives in the 7000 helicoptered out in April 75. It's certainly not the 10 embassy marines you were talking about. But, as you will. 73, end of war, not a problem, I apologise for not recognizing that a helicopter evacuation of 7000 people doesn't signify continued American involvement in the conflict up to that point.
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spot wrote: OK, let's close this one down if we can. I've been reading what I hope is a neutral site, http://www.vietnamwar.com/Timeline69-75.htm



April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.



Now, either we say the end of bombing Cambodia in August 1973 is the end of the Vietnam war, or we say that this is, it's semantics at this point. For me, that's a lot of advisers and CIA operatives in the 7000 helicoptered out in April 75. It's certainly not the 10 embassy marines you were talking about.
what part of "7000 americans and south vietnamese" don't you understand?



those evacuated were not US military, they were american civilians and vietnamese refugees.





But, as you will. 73, end of war, not a problem, I apologise for not recognizing that a helicopter evacuation of 7000 people doesn't signify continued American involvement in the conflict up to that point.
i'd expect you to spin it no differently.



the US military pulled out of vietnam in 1973. saigon fell thirty years ago to the communist viet cong, after the south vietnamese military was not able to hold them back after two years fighting them without US military support. that's the anniversary being recognized.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: what part of "7000 americans and south vietnamese" don't you understand?



those evacuated were not US military, they were american civilians and vietnamese refugees.This is quite interesting, really. I think you might be mistaken but of course, it's not my field. Have a look at this though, which I've OCR'd from “Vietnam (13), Box 19, National Security Adviser. Presidential Country Files for East Asia and the Pacific, Gerald R. Ford Library":

Vietnam Assessment Report by General Fred C. Weyand, April 4, 1975, extracted from page 2:

"For reasons of prudence, the United States should plan now for a mass evacuation of some 6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals to whom we have incurred an obligation and owe protection. The lessons of Danang indicate that this evacuation Would require as a minimum a U.S. task force of a reinforced division supported by tactical air to suppress North Vietnamese artillery and anti-aircraft, as required. At the appropriate time, a public statement of this policy should be made and the North. Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel". Authority should be obtained to authorize appropriate use of military sanctions against North Vietnam if there is interference with the evacuation."

You'll notice that General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians. I think they're a combination of military and Intelligence officers, myself. What have you that would suggest otherwise?
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spot wrote: OK, let's close this one down if we can. I've been reading what I hope is a neutral site, http://www.vietnamwar.com/Timeline69-75.htm



April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.



Now, either we say the end of bombing Cambodia in August 1973 is the end of the Vietnam war, or we say that this is, it's semantics at this point. For me, that's a lot of advisers and CIA operatives in the 7000 helicoptered out in April 75. It's certainly not the 10 embassy marines you were talking about. But, as you will. 73, end of war, not a problem, I apologise for not recognizing that a helicopter evacuation of 7000 people doesn't signify continued American involvement in the conflict up to that point.
A few "spotted" facts about the end of the war:



The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. [1996 Information Please Almanac]



The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. [1996 Information Please Almanac]



There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. [1996 Information Please Almanac]



In my opinion the worst thing we ever did was stop the bombings in Cambodia. It is not widely broadcast about how many died in the first 2 years we pulled out of Viet Nam but the killings of innocents was atrocious.



We had the Viet Cong on the run and they were about to negotiate.
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spot wrote:

"For reasons of prudence, the United States should plan now for a mass evacuation of some 6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals to whom we have incurred an obligation and owe protection. The lessons of Danang indicate that this evacuation Would require as a minimum a U.S. task force of a reinforced division supported by tactical air to suppress North Vietnamese artillery and anti-aircraft, as required. At the appropriate time, a public statement of this policy should be made and the North. Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel". Authority should be obtained to authorize appropriate use of military sanctions against North Vietnam if there is interference with the evacuation."



You'll notice that General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians. I think they're a combination of military and Intelligence officers, myself. What have you that would suggest otherwise?strange, it looks to me like he referred to U.S. citizens as U.S. citizens. military commands don't refer to military personnel as "U.S. citizens", they refer to them as military personnel.



i believe there is *no* definitive breakdown of who was evacuated. it was complete chaos, and the US forces who came back in to assist in the evacuation pretty much took anyone who wanted to leave, up until the viet cong overran the city. i think it's no more unreasonable to assume that the majority of those evacuated were civilians than is your assumption that they were military.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: strange, it looks to me like he referred to U.S. citizens as U.S. citizens. military commands don't refer to military personnel as "U.S. citizens", they refer to them as military personnel. I obviously quoted too much for you to assimilate. General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians in the sentence 'Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel".' - which is why I quoted the page. Because of his use of the word Personnel relating to the 6,000 U.S. citizens.
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spot wrote: I obviously quoted too much for you to assimilate. General Weyand refers to these 6,000 U.S. citizens as "personnel", not as civilians in the sentence 'Vietnamese clearly warned "of U.S. intention to use force to safely evacuate personnel".' - which is why I quoted the page. Because of his use of the word Personnel relating to the 6,000 U.S. citizens.
speaking of weaseling. it's clear at this point you are not willing to concede that this is the anniversary of the fall of saigon, not the anniversary of the US military leaving viet nam. oh well.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: speaking of weaseling. it's clear at this point you are not willing to concede that this is the anniversary of the fall of saigon, not the anniversary of the US military leaving viet nam. oh well.Definitely not, having seen General Weyand refer to 6,000 U.S. personnel still being in-country at the beginning of April 75. I'll have to read a while longer at the Ford Library before I can get a better picture of what they were doing there. Perhaps you think they might have been tourists?
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spot wrote: Definitely not, having seen General Weyland refer to 6,000 U.S. personnel still being in-country at the beginning of April 75. I'll have to read a while longer at the Ford Library before I can get a better picture of what they were doing there. Perhaps you think they might have been tourists?
this has moved into the realm of the absurd. is CNN unbiased enough for you? how about ABC, NBC, how about your own bloody BBC? all of these sources reported on April 30th "Vietnam remembers fall of Saigon". not "Vietnam remembers final US military pullout from Vietnam". The south vietnamese formally surrendered to the viet cong on April 30th 1975. US military forces were pulled out of vietnam in 1973. that there were advisors, civilians, and a small marine contingent at the embassy isn't even in debate. You asserted, in this post -



http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=6



"You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?"



that you continue to deny that the statement above is in error is not the least bit surprising.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: this has moved into the realm of the absurd. is CNN unbiased enough for you? how about ABC, NBC, how about your own bloody BBC? all of these sources reported on April 30th "Vietnam remembers fall of Saigon". not "Vietnam remembers final US military pullout from Vietnam". The south vietnamese formally surrendered to the viet cong on April 30th 1975. US military forces were pulled out of vietnam in 1973. that there were advisors, civilians, and a small marine contingent at the embassy isn't even in debate.Ah, we call them Advisors now, do we? I still don't concede any civilians, without alternative evidence. I still say Saigon was no place in April 75 for a tourist. If we have 6,000 U.S. citizens leaving Vietnam at the end of April 75, then that's the final U.S. pullout, in my opinion. We've gone up a lot from your initial 10 Embassy marines, haven't we.
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Post by koan »

BTS wrote: A few "spotted" facts about the end of the war:



The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. [1996 Information Please Almanac]



The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. [1996 Information Please Almanac]



There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. [1996 Information Please Almanac]



In my opinion the worst thing we ever did was stop the bombings in Cambodia. It is not widely broadcast about how many died in the first 2 years we pulled out of Viet Nam but the killings of innocents was atrocious.



We had the Viet Cong on the run and they were about to negotiate.


I have never before heard this point of view that the US should not have pulled out. Not that I disagree. I wouldn't know. I was just wondering if this is only your opinion or if there are many others who feel the same way. Why do you think they were about to negotiate?
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Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: Ah, we call them Advisors now, do we? I still don't concede any civilians, without alternative evidence. I still say Saigon was no place in April 75 for a tourist. If we have 6,000 U.S. citizens leaving Vietnam
you are truly a dishonest individual. your own quote said 'u.s. citizens and south vietnamese'. but now you're just rolling it all up as U.S. citizens.



truly dishonest.





at the end of April 75, then that's the final U.S. pullout, in my opinion. We've gone up a lot from your initial 10 Embassy marines, haven't we.
the 'personnel' the general referred to were embassy personnel. at most about 200. most of the remainder were south vietnamese who were evacuated.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: you are truly a dishonest individual. your own quote said 'u.s. citizens and south vietnamese'. but now you're just rolling it all up as U.S. citizens.



truly dishonest.


Either you don't read well, or you forget quickly. "6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals" - I rolled up nothing, and you're mistaken in accusing me of dishonesty.



anastrophe wrote: the 'personnel' the general referred to were embassy personnel. at most about 200. most of the remainder were south vietnamese who were evacuated.My reading of the passage of the General's Vietnam Assessment Report is that he uses "personnel" to talk about all of the 6,000 US citizens in country. I still maintain that few of those are likely to be civilians, no civilian in his right mind would have been there apart from the reporters. You count 5,800 reporters, anastrophe?

The Intelligence community does tend to call its advisors "civilians", of course. All you have there is the count of US citizens, though. 6,000. Excluding South Vietnamese.

What proportion of that 6,000 do you think was non-Personnel, then? Why were they there?
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Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: Either you don't read well, or you forget quickly. "6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals" - I rolled up nothing, and you're mistaken in accusing me of dishonesty.
perhaps. at this point, it's awfully hard to tell just what exactly you're saying. thus far, you've posted the following quoted material:



You do realize that this is the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of this same military from Vietnam, don't you?

Thirty years ago, Americans were transfixed by the chaotic images flickering across their TV screens. Hordes of frantic South Vietnamese men, women and children desperately clinging to the U.S. Embassy fence in Saigon, pleading for escape. Chinook helicopters teetering precariously on the embassy roof, evacuating the last Americans [...] [ed note: this material quoted by you mentions nothing of the vietnamese we evacuated]



There was a peace treaty signed in 1973, the US military spent the following two years in-country continuing to advise the US-backed army of South Vietnam, and the US military finally pulled out of Vietnam at the end of April 1975.[here you claim only that it was the US military pulling out at the end of april 1975]



President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon[...]





For reasons of prudence, the United States should plan now for a mass evacuation of some 6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals [...]



So what we have is a uniform lack of consistency, so to speak. we have no definitive statement pertaining to how many of those who were evacuated were U.S. civilians, military advisors, direct military personnel, embassy personnel, south vietnamese nationals, whatever.







My reading of the passage of the General's Vietnam Assessment Report is that he uses "personnel" to talk about all of the 6,000 US citizens in country. I still maintain that few of those are likely to be civilians, no civilian in his right mind would have been there apart from the reporters. You count 5,800 reporters, anastrophe?
nice. said nothing of the sort, but that makes for good trolling there, buddy.



you go ahead and maintain whatever you want. The US military pulled out of vietnam in 1973, saigon fell to the viet cong in 1975. your own BBC put it that way. all the other news organizations out there described it that way. the thirtieth anniversary of the fall of saigon. not the thirtieth anniversary of the departure of US military from viet nam.



i'm done. you're not going to admit your error, so there's no point in trying to get you to do so any further.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: i'm done. you're not going to admit your error, so there's no point in trying to get you to do so any further.Actually, I think I am.

I have an answer which might contain hints of the truth, after reading a bit of the Ford Presidency archive at Texas University.

The Vietnam Assessment Report by General Fred C. Weyand, April 4, 1975, recommended the US to "plan now for a mass evacuation of some 6,000 U.S. citizens and tens of thousands of South Vietnamese and Third Country Nationals".

Operation TALON VISE, later Operation Frequent Wind, removed 1,373 US Citizens at the end of April, together with between 40,000 and 70,000 Vietnamese, many of whom made their own way out to the fleet.

The majority of the missing 4,000+ U.S. citizens could be the payload of Operation Babylift, which I don't feel qualified to describe.

Assuming this balances the figures, then the final US pull-out from Vietnam in April 1975 amounted to 1,373 personnel, and I agree that figure isn't indicative of a military presence. I do note that if you google Hmong Veterans you'll get an indication that a lot of CIA controllers pulled out overland and by air into Cambodia during April 1975, but that's not the same thing as a military withdrawal either.

So, I'll settle for calling it the 30th anniversary of the Fall of Saigon instead.
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Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: Actually, I think I am.



So, I'll settle for calling it the 30th anniversary of the Fall of Saigon instead.
i'm pleased to hear that. there may be hope yet.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: i'm pleased to hear that. there may be hope yet.It took a long time to read the matter sufficiently. I know very little of your backwoods romp through south-east Asia.

One figure I came across which impressed me, though - something over 120,000 Americans left the USA while refusing the draft, and only 24,000 of those came back and swore allegiance during the subsequent amnesty. I call that bravery.
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Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: It took a long time to read the matter sufficiently. I know very little of your backwoods romp through south-east Asia.



One figure I came across which impressed me, though - something over 120,000 Americans left the USA while refusing the draft, and only 24,000 of those came back and swore allegiance during the subsequent amnesty. I call that bravery.
which population are you calling brave?



there is no bravery in deserting your country. take careful note, i fully support any person who chooses to leave the country rather than go to war. we each have only one life. for some, Duty is paramount, and they're willing to give their life to that ideal. For others Duty is NOT paramount, and they're unwilling to give their life to that ideal. both are valid stances. there are consequences to both.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: which population are you calling brave?The staying away for ever brigade. I agree I wasn't clear. I hear what I write conversationally, I hear my own emphasis, I don't always see the lack of clarity in my written words.
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