Zimbabwe votes

Clodhopper
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Post by Clodhopper »

Now my impression is that Mugabe has run the country into the ground, blamed everyone but himself, rigged all the elections hitherto and probably salted away a hefty retirement fund in a Swiss bank account. What chance is there for the country

1) Getting a free and fair election this time?

2) Recovering?
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Post by spot »

Has Zimbabwe been under international external sanctions recently?
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Post by Clodhopper »

I think that in the end it was felt sanctions would mostly hit the innocent. I believe that the ruling elite were put under some sort of travel sanctions and there were attempts to limit them taking money out of the country, but I don't know how effective they were. Must admit I've rather ignored Zimbabwe recently. Iraq, Afganistan etc have rather distracted me.

guilt. Knew some Zimbabwean refugees a few years ago through a writers' group, but I've lost touch. This thread is my rather feeble attempt to redress the balance.
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Post by Richard Bell »

Heard an interesting interview on CBC Radio with some Zimbabweans living in Canada.

The annual inflation rate in Zimbabwe is 150,000 %.

One of the interviewees said his nephew recently took the bus to work in Harare one morning. The fare was Z$25,000,000 .

When he returned home in the evening, the fare had doubled to Z$50,000,000.

(yes, those last two numbers are millions of dollars.)
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Post by Clodhopper »

Richard: Yeah, that's the sort of thing I was talking about. :-1 I gather Zimbabwe was an beautiful jewel and a functioning country andthen Mugabe drove out the middle class (which was 90% white) and the country collapsed :mad: . It may not be pc but it does appear to be true.

Before anyone has a go at me for racism, it's not a matter of colour, it's a matter of education.
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Post by spot »

It's also a question of fact, presumably. I do realize you're voicing a popular impression but I doubt whether it could be justified by the actualite.
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Post by Clodhopper »

spot;820367 wrote: It's also a question of fact, presumably. I do realize you're voicing a popular impression but I doubt whether it could be justified by the actualite.


Yeah, my ignorance is fairly extensive. Was hoping there might be a few people out there who knew about this issue. Most of what I know is based on what refugees told me, and of course their viewpoint is not neutral. Did see an interview with a Zanu/PF supporter who was disillusioned with Mugabe - he'd believed what Mugabe told him in the past, but no longer.

Nonetheless the fact remains that under Mugabe the country has been trashed. Perhaps beyond the point of no return?
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Post by spot »

Clodhopper;820375 wrote: the fact remains that under Mugabe the country has been trashed. Perhaps beyond the point of no return?
That we can definitely agree on. And Mugabe has doubtless been bloody-minded and intransigent.

Can you, out of interest, think of a single instance where external international sanctions did anything other than pull a country closer to supporting its ruler instead of pushing them into ditching him?
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Post by Clodhopper »

spot;820391 wrote: That we can definitely agree on. And Mugabe has doubtless been bloody-minded and intransigent.

Can you, out of interest, think of a single instance where external international sanctions did anything other than pull a country closer to supporting its ruler instead of pushing them into ditching him?


Nope, but my lack of knowledge doesn't mean much.

In the case of South Africa it might be that the sanctions were effective in the sense that they gave the international community somethig to focus on that they could do, and the important fact was the focus of disapproval rather than the effect of the sanctions per se.
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Post by spot »

The UK, I think, was allowed carte blanche to impose its bullying on Zimbabwe from the moment Mugabe went ahead with his promise to redistribute land, which had been a pledge throughout the struggle for a colour-free independence. Mugabe didn't back down, the UK has been "in charge" internationally and we've crushed the entire economy in a misguided refusal to admit defeat.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Yeah, right, mea culpa mea culpa, it was the English.

Actually, I blame the Welsh. If they'd rebelled properly under Glendower none of this would have ever happened. It shows an appalling lack of responsibility!
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Post by spot »

Well, look at it the other way around. If the UK had said right, no problem, you've confiscated the land for redistribution, good luck to you, we never liked that bastard Smith either, what on earth is there about Zimbabwe under any regime that would have failed to thrive economically?

But to shift the blame around and say old man Mugabe, he FORCED us to wreck Zimbabwe's economy because he wouldn't reverse his internal policies...

He's the bogey-man. Just like Saddam Hussein was the bogey-man. Both of them were acting in the interests of their country as a whole, quite effectively, until the Great Powers decided to obliterate them.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Don't understand. In what way did we wreck Zimbabwe's economy? Sanctions weren't imposed. What the heck did we do? EVERYONE who expressed an opinion at the time criticised Britain for not doing enough!

Ah well. We're English, and we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. We can take it.

You've still got some of the most beautiful mountains in the world. The Crib Goch route up Y Wyddfa is still a great experience for anyone.

For crying out loud, it's not as if we are a major player in the world economy any more! Britain didn't say, chase out all the people who know how to run cash crop farms. Britain (if I've got this right) didn't say, "No, you can't have seed corn for your people - and Mbeki in South Africa has consistently SUPPORTED the regime - surely it isn't beyond SA to provide seed corn?
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Post by Clodhopper »

under any regime that would have failed to thrive economically?


A regime of incompetent stupidity can trash anything. I think Mugabe and cronies nicked the lot.
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Post by Magic Rhino »

I spent sometime in Zim in the mid 70s and what a place it was. Even with sanctions it still had a better economy than most other countries in Africa, if not the rest of the world.

Back then if my memory serves me right was it not the British government that opened the doors that allowed someone like Magabe to take power. Since then they have sat back and watch the genocide of tribes that oppose Mugabe's ruling tribe. Then sat back and allowed the persecution of the white Zimbabwean citizens, some who have live in the country for generations, with the confiscation of their land that they spent fortunes, blood, sweat and tears building up. These also offered a large percentage of the population an opportunity to earn an income, which has now been removed. The British government along with other governments has also sat back and allowed the rigging of elections, which has allowed those in power to continue wrecking the country.

Is it not strange that the governments go into countries like Iraq, to remove what they call a dictator and put in its place anarchy, with more deaths going on of the local population than there where when the dictator was in power, yet sit back and do nothing in places like Zimbabwe.

Anyway will we ever be able to allow people to live in security and have a decent quality of life through out the world - mmmmmmmmm

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Post by spot »

I don't just object to the damage that's been done to Africa over the last 120 years, though I've no idea how much longer it will take before the effects are corrected. maybe another 120?

I also object to the monsters that the process turned our expatriates into. About that there's far less that time can correct but at least they'll eventually fade into a historical perspective.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Back then if my memory serves me right was it not the British government that opened the doors that allowed someone like Magabe to take power.


Magic Rhino: 1975. I'm so sorry (not that it does any good) Everyone here outside the conflict was naive about people like him. Che Guevara was a still a hero, and the excesses of the apartheid regime were just becoming known. Media moguls already controlled the news (we didn't understand that) and the people still believed journalists were independent.

It's 3 o'clock in the morning here so I must stop posting because I'm too tired to have confidence in what I'm saying.
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Post by Bruv »

We see the History of Zimbabwe from our very partisan point of view, if you stand back and look at the historical facts the problems take on a different slant.

Way back when there was a movement for majority rule with the blacks fighting for their country.

Smith declared UDI, and then came to an agreement that free elections should go ahead after sanctions began to affect the economy.

Mugabe was manovouvered into power by London pulling strings,Zimbabwe is a land based economy, and most of the fertile land had been taken by the white settlers who were the ruling elite with their own form of apartheid.

The Lancaster House agreement drew up plans that Land should be taken into black hands over time, financed by the US and English governments with the proviso willing buyer willing seller.

Mugabe, who was a freedom fighter, started his term in power by sticking to the agreement, but over time the US and English reneged on the transference of land, causing Mugabe to stiffen up his approach, he began to suffer unrest from veterans of the civil war who believed they were fighting for their own Land to be returned to african hands.

After going the legal route, and with growing frustration, Mugabe was forced to act because of the Wests reluctance to carry out the Lancaster House agreement.

It was only after all legal avenues had been exhausted that Mugabe threatened to take the land from the white elite.

If you take it from the indigenous African's point of view, they have every right to expect their own land to be in their hands.

Many if not all financial insitutions are western based, filtering profits back to the west, and as soon as Mugabe rocked the boat, confidence is knocked and support is slowly withdrawn.

That is basically the back ground, with less bias than the regular media.

Since then Mugabe has gone a little power crazy to say the least, he started as a powerful and respected leader, giving Zimbabwe the highest level of education in Africa, with a highly respected legal system that still is very much adhered to by and large.

Zimbabwe has a culture with extended family allegiances, that include favours and duties, we would call it nepotism, which it is.

I have filled in a few blanks, but I have no answers that would solve the problem.
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Post by Victoria »

You know what? I don't much care!

This is just a repeat of other countries who wanted to be free of the foreign minority occupying their country. So they chuck these oppressors out and then bleat when it all goés t1ts up.

Leave them to sort out their own mess, its a learning curve.
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Post by Bruv »

Victoria;820587 wrote: You know what? I don't much care!

This is just a repeat of other countries who wanted to be free of the foreign minority occupying their country. So they chuck these oppressors out and then bleat when it all goés t1ts up.

Leave them to sort out their own mess, its a learning curve.


Why bother to comment then ?

Leave them to sort out their own mess ?

Without interference ?

If only the west would or could, half the problems are western instigated, Trade agreements/Tariffs, Loan Repayments etc etc
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Post by spot »

fuzzy butt;820524 wrote: He's killed or killing of most of his opponents.Shall we tackle the lies one by one? Perhaps you can justify this statement with facts. The whole point of Zimbabwean politics is that there's an active opposition which hasn't been killed. What are they called? The Movement for Democratic Change? Who's their leader? Morgan Tsvangirai? He's dead is he? Or is he in the process of being made dead? Or their Secretary General, Tendai Biti? Or the members of the Supreme Court?

Come on, who among the opposition is dead, who among the opposition is being killed, where do you come up with "most" from? You've claimed to know this to be a fact - not to think it, or to suspect it, or to have been even mistakenly told it, but to know it. You've claimed that this knowledge is current. Tell us about it.

What I suspect is that you're willing to bleat the media slant and that what we're hearing is four legs good, two legs bad. Why not aim toward reality instead?
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Post by Accountable »

Victoria;820587 wrote: You know what? I don't much care!



This is just a repeat of other countries who wanted to be free of the foreign minority occupying their country. So they chuck these oppressors out and then bleat when it all goés t1ts up.

Leave them to sort out their own mess, its a learning curve.
It seems like you're saying "How dare they want to be free of the foreign minority occupation!"
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Post by Nomad »

Zimbabwe !

Its always Zimbabwe with you people !
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Post by Bruv »

Come on, who among the opposition is dead, who among the opposition is being killed ?


Unfortunately there have been deaths

There are influences exerted on opposition members, thats the way african culture functions, favours given, or withdrawn.

Extended families, with obligations and patronage expected both ways.

It is hard to describe the different mindset of westerners and africans, not better or worse, just different.
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Post by spot »

I don't doubt there have been deaths. Elections often have riots in the third world. The police in any country rarely have clean hands when it comes to getting away with murder and I include the UK in that. Zimbabwe is in no way unique in what you've mentioned, I'm sure you'd agree there.

What I was tearing my hair over was "most". I expect to see either some respectable evidence for "most" or a groveling apology for spreading disinformation.

I claim that "He's killed or killing of most of his opponents" is bullshit.
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Post by Galbally »

I think as in all these sort of situations, its important yes to recognize the influence that outside nations, particularly the UK (because of the past history of Zimbabwe/Rhodesia), and also South Africa as an influence now (because really at this stage, its South Africa is the country in the region with the most influence on Mugabe); but again, its Mugabe's responsibility for the situation he has placed his country into, he is in charge, he is not a child or a fool, and he has time and again made bad decisions for his people for selfish reasons and blames the consequences on others. Obviously he has been a disaster over the last 10 to 15 years for hanging onto power, when he should have let go, and the African states around him have not helped the situation much either. Hopefully his time is ending, and the people of Zimbabwe will get some respite from the problems they have endured for many years now.
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Post by spot »

Absolutely. Not a word out of place there. On the other hand, with cooperation Mugabe and Zimbabwe would not have been placed in this position at all. It is mere power-politics red in tooth and claw and it's nothing for anyone to brag about or gloat over.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Spot: ;)

You think Stalin was a great man and wonderful leader who only did what was necessary for his country and we shouldn't holds the millions of deaths he caused against him.

You think the same of Mao Zedong and feel that China has every right to control Tibet and repress dissent.

You think Mugabe is the victim of a Western plot (well, he did say so himself!) and if it weren't for the UK disliking him Zimbabwe would be a paradise.

I think you said Hitler was a bit naughty, though if I am misrepresenting your view please correct me!

Was there anything wrong with Pol Pot ? Or was he just badly misunderstood?

:p
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Post by spot »

I've never suggested Zimbabwe could be paradise under any regime.

You've no reason at all to think I said Hitler was a bit naughty, I've never said it.

Pol Pot was an appalling chap who should never have held high office and organized dreadful deeds.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Spot: So was Churchill a monster for repressing dissent in Wales and causing a death toll that ran into two figures? (I have no idea how many died - happy to take your word for it)
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Post by spot »

Churchill was exercising the office of Home Secretary in a responsible manner when he did that.

He was a monster when he fired a rifle in Sydney Street though.

He was a monster when he was shooting spear-toting fuzzywuzzys at Khartoum from horseback without a military commission, too.
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Post by Bruv »

Strangely Mugabe is a patriot, much vaunted by many of his countrymen still.

It takes an arrogant stubborness to overthrow the colonial ties that still bind africa to the west, and he is a hero for trying.

Much of africa is hog tied by agreements for trade and loan repayments, obliged to carry out policies directly tied to said agreements.

Nothing is as simple as good guy bad guy movies. All the worlds financial Institutions have a stake in how africa works, restrictions on trade, conditions on loans and developement, all controlled from the west.

Mugabe has taken on that huge oldboy network, and at every turn they cry Human rights, while imposing inhumane conditions to sutain western commerce.

I wish I was more eloquent and could pull the facts and dates etc from my memory.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Spot: Well, good for you for being consistent. (Slightly guilty - I was interested in seeing which way you went. Sorry.)

Still think you are very wrong about Stalin and co though, but hey, big deal. They're dead.

Bruv: I think I get your point about Mugabe, but I don't see how rigging elections to keep Morgan Tsvangiri (sp?) out of power is patriotic or benefits anyone but himself and his clique. "Reciprocal favours" are a way of having some security in a world where the law is very weak, but as operated (if you are correct and I've no reason to doubt you) they do mean those outside the reciprocal favour network are vulnerable - in effect without rights.

And I do think it takes a very special level of incompetence to reduce a country like Zimbabwe to a situation where they have little seed corn and less ability to plough. Haven't worked out how to add links, but it was on the BBC news website yesterday in an interview with an ex-Mugabe supporter. He wasn't going to vote against Mugabe, but he felt Mugabe had lied to him and he wasn't going to vote for him any more.
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Post by Bruv »

Back to the old adage Power corrupts etc.

I know it is very difficult, but if you listen to what the man says and not the way he says it, and put yourself in an ex-colonial freedom fighters position, and line up the might of the financial world against the simple needs of an african nation trying to break the mould......if you get my drift.....

Mugabe is not so bad.
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Post by spot »

It would still be a statesmanlike act for him to promptly hand over this week rather than drag matters on indefinitely. A fresh approach might well improve the lot of the common citizen.
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Post by Galbally »

Bruv;821103 wrote: Strangely Mugabe is a patriot, much vaunted by many of his countrymen still.

It takes an arrogant stubborness to overthrow the colonial ties that still bind africa to the west, and he is a hero for trying.

Much of africa is hog tied by agreements for trade and loan repayments, obliged to carry out policies directly tied to said agreements.

Nothing is as simple as good guy bad guy movies. All the worlds financial Institutions have a stake in how africa works, restrictions on trade, conditions on loans and developement, all controlled from the west.

Mugabe has taken on that huge oldboy network, and at every turn they cry Human rights, while imposing inhumane conditions to sutain western commerce.

I wish I was more eloquent and could pull the facts and dates etc from my memory.


Yes, but patriotism is of course the last refuge of a scoundrel. ;)
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Post by spot »

It sounded like informed and justifiable opinion to me, unlike "He's killed or killing of most of his opponents". I still can't get over the enormity of that impossible allegation.
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Post by Bruv »

I honestly have mixed feelings about Mugabe.

I have listened open mouthed at some of his speeches, spoken in his peculiarly clipped tone. Much of what he says, appears to be the paranoic ramblings of a nutcase.

But he has lived through the events that gave his country a semblence of independance, and he still sees his own internal powers thwarted by multinational concerns, the riches of his country filtering away to far off lands, much the same as pre independence. Africa still does not play on a level field, too many trade tariffs stifle any potential growth.

Like many politicians he has hung on too long, out stayed his usefulness and welcome.

His aim was to rid his country of the trappings of colonial rule, to break away from western influence, but lined up against the interested parties that would loose so much he has lost.

His methods have been suspect, his integrity too, and any decent statesman would bow out.

I admire what he wanted to do, but not the way he ended up being forced to do it, and then continueing to go the same route even when it was wrecking the country he is said to represent.
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Chookie »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7325286.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7321756.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7323667.stm



It seems that Mugabe is on the way out. I bet he takes all his ill-gotten with him though (and his off-shore accounts).

Zimbabwe will be the better for his going.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
Clodhopper
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Clodhopper »

Bruv;822358 wrote: I honestly have mixed feelings about Mugabe.

I have listened open mouthed at some of his speeches, spoken in his peculiarly clipped tone. Much of what he says, appears to be the paranoic ramblings of a nutcase.

But he has lived through the events that gave his country a semblence of independance, and he still sees his own internal powers thwarted by multinational concerns, the riches of his country filtering away to far off lands, much the same as pre independence. Africa still does not play on a level field, too many trade tariffs stifle any potential growth.

Like many politicians he has hung on too long, out stayed his usefulness and welcome.

His aim was to rid his country of the trappings of colonial rule, to break away from western influence, but lined up against the interested parties that would loose so much he has lost.

His methods have been suspect, his integrity too, and any decent statesman would bow out.

I admire what he wanted to do, but not the way he ended up being forced to do it, and then continueing to go the same route even when it was wrecking the country he is said to represent.


Well said.

Still no election result. What is going on????
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Clodhopper »

Thanks Chookie. (Incidentally, does Pog mo Thon mean "eat my shorts"? For some reason that's what comes into my head every time I see it!:wah:)
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Chookie
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Chookie »

Clodhopper;823585 wrote: Thanks Chookie. (Incidentally, does Pog mo Thon mean "eat my shorts"? For some reason that's what comes into my head every time I see it!:wah:)


Sorry, no it doesn't. As a clue, one of the words is tranlsated into English as KISS.
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Clodhopper
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Clodhopper »

:wah::wah::wah: Close!
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Clodhopper »

Zimbabwe's ruling party is meeting to decide how to react to the presidential election result, which has still not been officially declared.

A senior member of the party has told the BBC that Saturday's election ended in a "stalemate".

He said the party was prepared for President Robert Mugabe to contest a run-off against the main opposition leader, Morgan Tsvangirai.

The opposition MDC says Mr Tsvangirai won enough votes to avoid a run-off.

It says Mr Tsvangirai took 50.3% of the vote - just enough to avoid a second round in two weeks' time.

An independent projection says Mr Tsvangirai gained 49%, just below the threshold, with Mr Mugabe on 42%.

If indeed Tsvangirai has been elected that's fine and if there is a run-off that's fine. That is a matter we must await

Thabo Mbeki

South African President

The MDC (Movement for Democratic Change) said its offices in Harare were ransacked on Thursday. It denied that Mr Tsvangirai had gone into hiding and said he was "safe".

At least two foreign nationals were also arrested in a raid on a hotel in the capital, accused of working as journalists without accreditation. One of them is the Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times journalist, Barry Bearak.

The Foreign Office in London says it is investigating reports that the second man is British.

The BBC's Grant Ferrett in Johannesburg says the raids mark the start of the campaign for a possible run-off and were intended to have a cooling effect on the opposition and the media.

'Galvanised'

Zanu-PF secretary for administration and cabinet minister Didymus Mutasa told the BBC's Network Africa programme: "We know them [results], there is a stalemate."

He said the party was prepared for a run-off and would be "galvanised" by the election results.

ELECTION RESULTS SO FAR



Presidential results:

None so far

Winner needs more than 50% to avoid run-off

Senate results:

Zanu-PF: 5

MDC: 5

Source: ZEC





Voters predict results

Is Mugabe losing his grip?

Party ready to abandon Mugabe?





Mr Mutasa also said that Zanu-PF had won the Senate elections, the results of which must be announced before those of the presidential contest.

So far, 10 of the 60 Senate results have been announced, with each party on five seats.

It had been reported that Friday was the legal deadline for the presidential results to be announced but this has been denied by Zimbabwean constitutional experts.

South African President Thabo Mbeki has said he hoped Zimbabwe's legal processes would be respected and the official results accepted.

There had been speculation that Mr Mugabe might step down, rather than take part in a run-off.

However, Deputy Information Minister Bright Matonga has said that if results from the presidential poll showed a second round was necessary, Mr Mugabe would definitely stand.

"President Mugabe is going to fight to the last, and he's not giving up, he's not going anywhere, he hasn't lost the election," said.

The meeting of Zanu-PF's 49-member politburo comes two days after the ruling party lost its majority in parliament for the first time since independence in 1980.

The MDC took 99 seats, while the Zanu-PF party won only 97. A smaller MDC faction, which backed former Mugabe loyalist Simba Makoni in the presidential election, won 10 seats, leaving them with a potentially influential future role.

Televised meeting

Mr Mugabe made his first public appearance since the elections on Thursday, when he was shown meeting election observers from the African Union in Harare on state television.



Morgan Tsvangirai's MDC has ended Mr Mugabe's grip on parliament



The rivals

Former Sierra Leone President Ahmed Tejan Kabbah, who headed the AU observer mission, said Mr Mugabe had appeared "relaxed".

Mr Tejan Kabbah said he had also met Mr Tsvangirai, according to AFP, prompting further speculation that some form of African mediation effort is under way.

The former UN Secretary General, Kofi Annan, meanwhile called on the election commission to declare its results "faithfully and accurately".

"We live in an open world today and indeed the eyes of the world are on Zimbabwe, on its electoral commission, on its president," he said. "I urge them to do the right thing... The election results should be released now."

Mr Mugabe, 84, came to power 28 years ago at independence on a wave of optimism.

But in recent years Zimbabwe has been plagued by the world's highest inflation, as well as acute food and fuel shortages.


Copied from BBC News website.

Seems Mugabe is trying to hang on to power. Frankly, he's starting to look senile to me. Why is it taking so long for the results to come out? I assume Mbeki's attitude is part of the reciprocal favour thing Bruv talked about? If not, SA should start to be very worried.
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Galbally
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Galbally »

I reckon we could see some very nasty things happening in Zimbabwe this week, I hope he doesn't go that route, but if he does, and the South Africans don't help the Zimbabweans then it will be a bad week for Africa.
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Clodhopper »

On Friday, war veterans' leader Jabulani Sibanda accused white farmers of reoccupying farms allocated to blacks, and of telling other black farmers to leave or else face the wrath of an "incoming MDC government".



War veterans were blamed for violence in Zimbabwe's previous elections

"We will defend our sovereignty. We will be compelled to repel that invasion," Mr Sibanda told reporters.

The war veterans association was instrumental in the invasion of white-owned farms ahead of parliamentary elections in 2000.


Quoted from BBC website.

That really doesn't look good. Classic "invent a threat and justify your own actions as a response to that non-existent threat" stuff.
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Zimbabwe votes

Post by Bruv »

Strange events indeed.

It makes the previous results look good, and all the talk of election fixing before.



The problem now is the hardcore supporters have their own doubts about Mugabe.

He has done nothing to improve their lot, despite the promises.

ZANU and the Veterans and the Youth Movement put all their faith in him delivering the African dream, his failure is the Wests victory, in thier eyes, and the MDC is the West's lapdog.

Each opposing section is afraid to show their hand, in case there is a backlash later.

So MDC supporters are keeping low, same as ZANU supporters for fear of recriminations from who ever ends up top dog.
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