Millions of Americans do not have driver's licenses. Out of a population of 290 million residents, there are only 194 million licensed drivers. In addition to millions of children and teenagers, the elderly are particularly likely to lack licenses. An estimated 36 percent of Georgia residents over age 74, for example, lack driver's licenses.
By creating strict new identity requirements for federal identification and, inevitably, expanding them over time to cover a growing list of purposes, Real ID would force the people in this population to figure out a way to jump through the bureaucratic hoops required to get compliant identity documents and leave DMVs struggling with how to process them.
In some cases, individuals would not be able to obtain birth certificates, or the documents they have in hand upon arriving at the DMV would not be able to be verified.
Over the decades, records are lost through fires, floods, and disasters such as Hurricane Katrina.
Documents can be rendered suspect due to fraud or malfeasance. In 2004, for example, thousands of Hudson County, NJ residents received word that their birth certificates had been declared invalid because of an ongoing fraud investigation at the County Clerks office.
Over 30 million people in the U.S. are foreign-born, and many of them were born in remote undeveloped nations or other places where no birth records are kept, or in places (such as what is now North Korea) where any records might be difficult or impossible to obtain.
Some people are not sure when or even where they were born.
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
It is far from clear what would happen to such people. Real ID is silent on how such individuals should be handled, so DMVs would need to figure out if they would simply be denied identity papers, or if their applications could be processed in some other way consistent with the Act.
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Accountable
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
TruthBringer;760780 wrote: Was there something you wanted us to take a look at?Yes.
Accountable;760162 wrote:
[quote=TruthBringer]Don't have to wear a chipped uniform to work? Your RFID-enabled employee badge could do the spying instead. One day, these devices could tell management who you're chatting with at the water cooler and how long you've spent in the restroom and even whether or not you've washed your hands. There's already a product called iHygiene that can monitor the handwashing habits of RFID-tagged employees during bathroom visits.
I really don't have the time to read your volumes, Truth. I scanned a few paragraphs and saw this. You seem to be implying that such things are bad. Why is this bad?
I understand the implications of giving the gov't such power over the citizenry, but this particular use seems like a great idea to me.
Accountable;760162 wrote:
[quote=TruthBringer]Don't have to wear a chipped uniform to work? Your RFID-enabled employee badge could do the spying instead. One day, these devices could tell management who you're chatting with at the water cooler and how long you've spent in the restroom and even whether or not you've washed your hands. There's already a product called iHygiene that can monitor the handwashing habits of RFID-tagged employees during bathroom visits.
I really don't have the time to read your volumes, Truth. I scanned a few paragraphs and saw this. You seem to be implying that such things are bad. Why is this bad?
I understand the implications of giving the gov't such power over the citizenry, but this particular use seems like a great idea to me.
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Finally, someone else who understands what is coming, what they have in store for us as people. We are walking towards basically being under house arrest. No privacy, no freedom, controlled and monitored. You will have to be afraid to speak your mind. They will come and get you in the middle of the night, and you will dissapear. And just think all the wars we have become involved in because of Democracy. We dont have a Democracy, the rest of the world is just supposed to think we do. Lots of suicides are coming. Because of disbelief when American citizens realize what has happened to them. Because of loss of faith, and hope, and because of not being to handle being betrayed after being patriotic. The Buck Stops Here. It all has to do with money. Greed and corruption. Wealth in the hands of a few. These few will controll the masses. The little guy, the worthless guy will eventually be eradicated, then the wealthy few can lead a perfect existence.
The demise of family structure is really where this all began. We are for the most part a very weakened society, oblivious to the plan, distracted by struggling to survive, inable to even think about fighting back before it is too late. Well, Ill tell you this... no one is ever planting a chip in me. Did anyone ever see the movie Soylent Green? Very old with Charleton Heston. It has been suggested that Walmart will offer the first euthanasia centers, in the future. Come in and have yourself gassed, and we will cut a check for your family. They can use the money until they come in to get " Put to sleep".
The demise of family structure is really where this all began. We are for the most part a very weakened society, oblivious to the plan, distracted by struggling to survive, inable to even think about fighting back before it is too late. Well, Ill tell you this... no one is ever planting a chip in me. Did anyone ever see the movie Soylent Green? Very old with Charleton Heston. It has been suggested that Walmart will offer the first euthanasia centers, in the future. Come in and have yourself gassed, and we will cut a check for your family. They can use the money until they come in to get " Put to sleep".
[FONT=Microsoft Sans Serif][/FONT]
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
An ID card is better than handing out your SS # to everyone.
I AM AWESOME MAN
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RedGlitter
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
I'd be willing to bet that ID card will have a social security number on it. And everything else connected with us. Right now we have to give thumbprints to cash checks. What is to say we won't be on file in every other aspect all under the guise of "national security?" It's already happening.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Whether or not they obtain second class licenses, those who cannot get Real ID-compliant identity documents could in theory be left unable to fly on commercial aircraft, enter federal facilities such as courthouses or office buildings, or even possibly get a job legally.
Furthermore, the list of activities for which these IDs are required is sure to expand, if the current mindless trend of seeking security through identity papers is not reversed. In fact, the Real ID Act explicitly says that Real IDs shall be required not only for activities like boarding aircraft, but also for any other purposes that "the Secretary [of Homeland Security] shall determine."
The legislation that was rammed into law provided no money to pay the states costs to comply, so those costs would ultimately be borne by the residents of each state if not in the form of higher fees at the DMV, then in the form of higher taxes.
That is why Real ID is for all intents and purposes a hidden tax increase. If Congressional leaders want to impose a multi-billion-dollar security tax on the American citizens, they must do so only through well-established mechanisms and after a proper period of open debate and exploratory hearings that examine the costs and benefits of such a measure. Congressional leaders must not impose an enormously expensive (and dubiously effective) security scheme while trying to weasel out of paying for such a scheme by sneaking its costs along to taxpayers through higher license fees and/or state tax increases.
Furthermore, the list of activities for which these IDs are required is sure to expand, if the current mindless trend of seeking security through identity papers is not reversed. In fact, the Real ID Act explicitly says that Real IDs shall be required not only for activities like boarding aircraft, but also for any other purposes that "the Secretary [of Homeland Security] shall determine."
The legislation that was rammed into law provided no money to pay the states costs to comply, so those costs would ultimately be borne by the residents of each state if not in the form of higher fees at the DMV, then in the form of higher taxes.
That is why Real ID is for all intents and purposes a hidden tax increase. If Congressional leaders want to impose a multi-billion-dollar security tax on the American citizens, they must do so only through well-established mechanisms and after a proper period of open debate and exploratory hearings that examine the costs and benefits of such a measure. Congressional leaders must not impose an enormously expensive (and dubiously effective) security scheme while trying to weasel out of paying for such a scheme by sneaking its costs along to taxpayers through higher license fees and/or state tax increases.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Real ID would become a key infrastructure for, and dramatically accelerate, the surveillance society that is already being constructed in the United States. Once put in place, it would be used more and more for the routine tracking, monitoring, and regulation of individuals movements and activities, it would be exploited by the private sector, and it would expose individuals to greater risk of identity theft and other security risks. Its centralized database would inevitably, over time, become the repository for more and more data on individuals, and would be drawn on for an ever-wider set of purposes.
The creation of a single interlinked database (as well as the requirement that each DMV store copies of all the birth certificates and other documents presented to it) would create a one-stop shop for identity thieves. Nearly 10 million people, or 5 percent of U.S. adults, were victims of identity theft in one year (2002) alone, according to a U.S. Federal Trade Commission study. The security problems with creating concentrated databases have been repeatedly demonstrated over the years most recently in the rash of cases where information held by commercial database companies has fallen into the hands of identity thieves or others. The governments record at information security is little better. And DMV employees around the country have repeatedly been caught in corruption schemes such as selling fraudulent licenses or data to identity thieves.
The new identity system created by Real ID would accelerate a larger American trend toward a the construction of a public-private Security-Industrial Complex. Data aggregators like ChoicePoint, Acxiom, Lexis-Nexis and others make up an enormous, multi-billion-dollar industry that builds dossiers on individuals using a wide array of sources. And the government is increasingly turning to such companies for help with security functions. The FBI, for example, pays millions to ChoicePoint, and the TSA wants to use private-sector firms in performing identity checks on airline passengers.
The common machine-readable technology on Real IDs would allow for easy, computerized transfer of the data on the cards not only to the government at checkpoints like airports, but also to private parties. Already, many bars already collect all their customers information (including such details as height and weight) by swiping drivers licenses handed over to prove legal drinking age. That might prove to be just the tip of the iceberg as every big-box retailer, convenience store, and liquor mart learns to grab that data and sell it to Choicepoint for a dime. The result would be that, even if the states and federal government do successfully protect the data, it would be harvested by private companies, which would then build up a parallel, for-profit database on Americans, free from even the limited privacy rules in effect for the government.
The creation of a single interlinked database (as well as the requirement that each DMV store copies of all the birth certificates and other documents presented to it) would create a one-stop shop for identity thieves. Nearly 10 million people, or 5 percent of U.S. adults, were victims of identity theft in one year (2002) alone, according to a U.S. Federal Trade Commission study. The security problems with creating concentrated databases have been repeatedly demonstrated over the years most recently in the rash of cases where information held by commercial database companies has fallen into the hands of identity thieves or others. The governments record at information security is little better. And DMV employees around the country have repeatedly been caught in corruption schemes such as selling fraudulent licenses or data to identity thieves.
The new identity system created by Real ID would accelerate a larger American trend toward a the construction of a public-private Security-Industrial Complex. Data aggregators like ChoicePoint, Acxiom, Lexis-Nexis and others make up an enormous, multi-billion-dollar industry that builds dossiers on individuals using a wide array of sources. And the government is increasingly turning to such companies for help with security functions. The FBI, for example, pays millions to ChoicePoint, and the TSA wants to use private-sector firms in performing identity checks on airline passengers.
The common machine-readable technology on Real IDs would allow for easy, computerized transfer of the data on the cards not only to the government at checkpoints like airports, but also to private parties. Already, many bars already collect all their customers information (including such details as height and weight) by swiping drivers licenses handed over to prove legal drinking age. That might prove to be just the tip of the iceberg as every big-box retailer, convenience store, and liquor mart learns to grab that data and sell it to Choicepoint for a dime. The result would be that, even if the states and federal government do successfully protect the data, it would be harvested by private companies, which would then build up a parallel, for-profit database on Americans, free from even the limited privacy rules in effect for the government.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Although individual states drivers licenses may continue to exhibit cosmetic differences, under Real ID they would contain a standardized set of information collected by all 50 states, in standard format, encoded on a standardized machine-readable zone. And although individual states would still maintain their own databases, by requiring them to be interlinked, Real ID would bring into being what is, for all practical purposes, a single distributed database. In short, underneath each states pretty designs they are really a single standardized national card. Local DMV offices may continue to appear to be state offices, but under Real ID they would become agents acting on behalf of the federal government, charged with administering what amounts to an internal passport without which no one will be able to function in America.
There will also be a construction of a larger network of identity papers, databases, status and identity checks and access control points in short, what has been called an internal passport. If the old drivers license represented a license to drive the governments very specific permission to operate a vehicle on the public roadways the fear is that the new documents will become tantamount to a license to leave your house.
National IDs would violate privacy by helping to consolidate data. There is an enormous and ever-increasing amount of data being collected about Americans today. Ones grocery store, for example, might use a loyalty card to keep detailed records of what you buy, while Amazon keeps records of what you read, the airlines keep track of where you fly, and so on. This can be an invasion of privacy, but our privacy has actually been protected by the fact that all this information still remains scattered across many different databases. But once the government, landlords, employers, or other powerful forces gain the ability to draw together all this information, our privacy will really be destroyed. And that is exactly what a national identity system would facilitate.
A national ID like Real ID would also facilitate tracking. When a police officer or security guard scans your ID card with his pocket bar-code reader, for example, it will likely create a permanent record of that check, including the time and your location. How long before office buildings, doctors offices, gas stations, highway tolls, subways and buses incorporate the ID card into their security or payment systems for greater efficiency? The end result could be a situation where citizens movements inside their own country are monitored and recorded through these internal passports."
There will also be a construction of a larger network of identity papers, databases, status and identity checks and access control points in short, what has been called an internal passport. If the old drivers license represented a license to drive the governments very specific permission to operate a vehicle on the public roadways the fear is that the new documents will become tantamount to a license to leave your house.
National IDs would violate privacy by helping to consolidate data. There is an enormous and ever-increasing amount of data being collected about Americans today. Ones grocery store, for example, might use a loyalty card to keep detailed records of what you buy, while Amazon keeps records of what you read, the airlines keep track of where you fly, and so on. This can be an invasion of privacy, but our privacy has actually been protected by the fact that all this information still remains scattered across many different databases. But once the government, landlords, employers, or other powerful forces gain the ability to draw together all this information, our privacy will really be destroyed. And that is exactly what a national identity system would facilitate.
A national ID like Real ID would also facilitate tracking. When a police officer or security guard scans your ID card with his pocket bar-code reader, for example, it will likely create a permanent record of that check, including the time and your location. How long before office buildings, doctors offices, gas stations, highway tolls, subways and buses incorporate the ID card into their security or payment systems for greater efficiency? The end result could be a situation where citizens movements inside their own country are monitored and recorded through these internal passports."
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
I just had to get a new laptop computer and it came with Microsoft Vista. GRRRRRR. This demands my fingerprints ever time I boot it up.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
TruthBringer;760797 wrote: It is far from clear what would happen to such people. Real ID is silent on how such individuals should be handled, so DMVs would need to figure out if they would simply be denied identity papers, or if their applications could be processed in some other way consistent with the Act.
They will just chip them. Forehead or hand. You're right. It's inevitable. And people wont realise what they have lost, till it's gone.
Brilliant thread, by the way.
They will just chip them. Forehead or hand. You're right. It's inevitable. And people wont realise what they have lost, till it's gone.
Brilliant thread, by the way.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Raven;761674 wrote: They will just chip them. Forehead or hand. You're right. It's inevitable. And people wont realise what they have lost, till it's gone.
Brilliant thread, by the way.
Thanks Raven.
You're right. That's exactly what they have planned.
Brilliant thread, by the way.
Thanks Raven.
You're right. That's exactly what they have planned.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
State legislators, interested citizens, and other individuals can join with the many governors and interest groups who oppose this legislation and force Congress to repeal and/or rework it. In addition, if only a few states refuse to make Real ID-compliant drivers licenses for their citizens (an entirely lawful option), the system envisioned by its sponsors will be thrown into crisis, further pressuring Congress to revisit the issue, this time with proper democratic consideration and debate. If this does not happen, this legislation will in however a chaotic and delayed fashion go into effect and reshape the power structure of this nation in the most basic ways.
This law federalizes and standardizes state drivers licenses for all 50 states, and it will result in something that has been resisted in this country for a long time -- a de facto national identity card.
The Real ID Act was pushed through Congress in 2005 with little meaningful debate. It imposes sweeping changes on state drivers licenses that will result in significant new fees and hassles for everyone who needs a license or ID not to mention posing a new threat to Americans privacy. And, our experience suggests that if Real ID becomes the standard for drivers licenses, it will worsen the problem of identity theft.
Unfortunately, we all know that these IDs will be counterfeited within hours of release and if they are perceived as super-reliable, they will be all the more valuable and attractive as a target for crooks. Crooks have always proven to be very clever and able to make IDs look realistic, and we have no reason to doubt this will be any different. They will figure it out very quickly or simply bribe a DMV official somewhere in the country to provide a genuine (but fraudulent) card. A number of cases of bribery at DMVs have come to light in recent years. And merchants and government clerks simply are not experts in determining whether an ID they're looking at is the real thing.
This law federalizes and standardizes state drivers licenses for all 50 states, and it will result in something that has been resisted in this country for a long time -- a de facto national identity card.
The Real ID Act was pushed through Congress in 2005 with little meaningful debate. It imposes sweeping changes on state drivers licenses that will result in significant new fees and hassles for everyone who needs a license or ID not to mention posing a new threat to Americans privacy. And, our experience suggests that if Real ID becomes the standard for drivers licenses, it will worsen the problem of identity theft.
Unfortunately, we all know that these IDs will be counterfeited within hours of release and if they are perceived as super-reliable, they will be all the more valuable and attractive as a target for crooks. Crooks have always proven to be very clever and able to make IDs look realistic, and we have no reason to doubt this will be any different. They will figure it out very quickly or simply bribe a DMV official somewhere in the country to provide a genuine (but fraudulent) card. A number of cases of bribery at DMVs have come to light in recent years. And merchants and government clerks simply are not experts in determining whether an ID they're looking at is the real thing.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Real ID will also create new opportunities for ID thieves to commit their crime. The law requires DMVs to store scanned copies of birth certificates, Social Security cards, and any other documents that individuals present when they apply for a license. It creates a national linked database allowing millions of employees at all levels of government around the nation to access personal data. And it mandates a nationally standardized machine-readable zone that will let bars, merchants and other private parties scan personal data off licenses with greater ease than ever before, putting all that information into even greater circulation.
Real ID is the subject of an ongoing battle in the state legislatures, many of which are moving toward rejecting participation. Consumers concerned about privacy and identity theft might want to make their voices heard by contacting their state or federal legislators.
Real ID is a big step toward a national ID card, and it will open the door to government invasions of privacy and to identity theft.
The Real ID Act imposes tremendous costs on state governments, yet any state that opts out will automatically make nonpersons out of its citizens.
The citizens of that state will be unable to have any dealings with the federal government because their ID will not be accepted. They will not be able to fly or to take a train. In essence, in the eyes of the federal government, they will cease to exist.
The Real ID Act turns state driver's licenses into de facto national ID cards, thus facilitating the massive invasion of an American's privacy, facilitating the growth of the surveillance state, and turning America into the type of country where citizens must always have their 'papers in order.'"
Real ID is the subject of an ongoing battle in the state legislatures, many of which are moving toward rejecting participation. Consumers concerned about privacy and identity theft might want to make their voices heard by contacting their state or federal legislators.
Real ID is a big step toward a national ID card, and it will open the door to government invasions of privacy and to identity theft.
The Real ID Act imposes tremendous costs on state governments, yet any state that opts out will automatically make nonpersons out of its citizens.
The citizens of that state will be unable to have any dealings with the federal government because their ID will not be accepted. They will not be able to fly or to take a train. In essence, in the eyes of the federal government, they will cease to exist.
The Real ID Act turns state driver's licenses into de facto national ID cards, thus facilitating the massive invasion of an American's privacy, facilitating the growth of the surveillance state, and turning America into the type of country where citizens must always have their 'papers in order.'"
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
The Real ID Act creates a federal identity document that every American will need in order to fly on commercial airlines, enter government buildings, open a bank account, and more.
It creates huge administrative burdens for state governments, while providing no federal funds for implementing its onerous requirements. At the same time, it does nothing to combat terrorism, and puts us at greater risk for invasions of privacy and identity theft.
The Real ID Act was slipped through Congress in an Iraq War/Tsunami relief supplemental bill in May 2005. Cutting off a "negotiated rulemaking" that had included the ACLU and other key stakeholders from Homeland Security to state officials as part of a process to update the nation's driver's licenses, Real ID imposes a clumsy and burdensome set of requirements on states as part of its aim to definitively turn Americans' driver's licenses into a true national idenity card system.
This Act is a giant unfunded federal mandate that will create enormous initial and ongoing administrative burdens and costs for states. It will also create burdens for individual citizens including a higher cost and longer wait for licensing. And it is far from clear that these extraordinary costs will bring any benefits in preventing terrorism. Before states spend the substantial resources Real ID will require, they owe it to their citizens to seriously question the necessity and efficacy of implementing the Real ID Act.
The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has been charged by Congress with issuing regulations spelling out the details of these and other requirements. In some cases, the administrative burdens faced by the states will depend greatly on exactly what requirements DHS decides to impose. Nevertheless, the outlines of the burdens it will impose are clear from the statute itself.
It creates huge administrative burdens for state governments, while providing no federal funds for implementing its onerous requirements. At the same time, it does nothing to combat terrorism, and puts us at greater risk for invasions of privacy and identity theft.
The Real ID Act was slipped through Congress in an Iraq War/Tsunami relief supplemental bill in May 2005. Cutting off a "negotiated rulemaking" that had included the ACLU and other key stakeholders from Homeland Security to state officials as part of a process to update the nation's driver's licenses, Real ID imposes a clumsy and burdensome set of requirements on states as part of its aim to definitively turn Americans' driver's licenses into a true national idenity card system.
This Act is a giant unfunded federal mandate that will create enormous initial and ongoing administrative burdens and costs for states. It will also create burdens for individual citizens including a higher cost and longer wait for licensing. And it is far from clear that these extraordinary costs will bring any benefits in preventing terrorism. Before states spend the substantial resources Real ID will require, they owe it to their citizens to seriously question the necessity and efficacy of implementing the Real ID Act.
The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has been charged by Congress with issuing regulations spelling out the details of these and other requirements. In some cases, the administrative burdens faced by the states will depend greatly on exactly what requirements DHS decides to impose. Nevertheless, the outlines of the burdens it will impose are clear from the statute itself.
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
AussiePam;761595 wrote: I just had to get a new laptop computer and it came with Microsoft Vista. GRRRRRR. This demands my fingerprints ever time I boot it up.
I just got a new laptop too, I love the fingerprint swiper! Saves me having to type in passwords all the time (lazy me, I know :p) I didn't think you had to do that tho, don't you still have the option of typing in a password to log on?
Interesting thread btw. I can see where you're coming from Truth, but frankly, I agree with the poeple in here that have said if you have nothing to hide, why worry about it? It's obviously going to happen no matter how strenuously people object. Note: I have read 1984 & found it to be one of the most terrifying books I've ever read, so believe me I understand what you're saying! It's just (and I know this sounds apathetic) I don't really see what anyone can do to stop it, and as long as it's just for monitoring, I don't see the harm.
I just got a new laptop too, I love the fingerprint swiper! Saves me having to type in passwords all the time (lazy me, I know :p) I didn't think you had to do that tho, don't you still have the option of typing in a password to log on?
Interesting thread btw. I can see where you're coming from Truth, but frankly, I agree with the poeple in here that have said if you have nothing to hide, why worry about it? It's obviously going to happen no matter how strenuously people object. Note: I have read 1984 & found it to be one of the most terrifying books I've ever read, so believe me I understand what you're saying! It's just (and I know this sounds apathetic) I don't really see what anyone can do to stop it, and as long as it's just for monitoring, I don't see the harm.
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Hi Santanico. Yes, I can access my computer without the fingerprint via password.
As for the ID stuff, the State and Big Brother alone knows how many corporations etc have every detail about me already. On GoogleEarth you can see my house and how many cars are parked out front. Internet searches can pull up vast amounts of detail on everybody. I am just about to renew my Brit passport and that's biometric. Whenever I enter the United States I am routinely fingerprinted, eye-photo'd etc. The computer knows all my vital statistics and what I had for breakfast. Already, the Force knows me intimately - right now they probably have to make a small effort to draw all the info together, but it's there. And like the American constitutional right to bear arms, nothing is going to undo what's already there. I can't imagine why anyone would really want to be bothered tracking my phonecalls, my emails, my simple shopping purchases, my medical records, my tax forms, my eating habits and recording how many drop dead gorgeous aussie tanned surf lifesavers I party with. But if the Force suddenly decides that they do really need this information, I'm sure they can get it, right now, easily. So what's the big deal about having an Australia Card, or the American equivalent?
As for the ID stuff, the State and Big Brother alone knows how many corporations etc have every detail about me already. On GoogleEarth you can see my house and how many cars are parked out front. Internet searches can pull up vast amounts of detail on everybody. I am just about to renew my Brit passport and that's biometric. Whenever I enter the United States I am routinely fingerprinted, eye-photo'd etc. The computer knows all my vital statistics and what I had for breakfast. Already, the Force knows me intimately - right now they probably have to make a small effort to draw all the info together, but it's there. And like the American constitutional right to bear arms, nothing is going to undo what's already there. I can't imagine why anyone would really want to be bothered tracking my phonecalls, my emails, my simple shopping purchases, my medical records, my tax forms, my eating habits and recording how many drop dead gorgeous aussie tanned surf lifesavers I party with. But if the Force suddenly decides that they do really need this information, I'm sure they can get it, right now, easily. So what's the big deal about having an Australia Card, or the American equivalent?
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
AussiePam;763485 wrote: Hi Santanico. Yes, I can access my computer without the fingerprint via password.
As for the ID stuff, the State and Big Brother alone knows how many corporations etc have every detail about me already. On GoogleEarth you can see my house and how many cars are parked out front. Internet searches can pull up vast amounts of detail on everybody. I am just about to renew my Brit passport and that's biometric. Whenever I enter the United States I am routinely fingerprinted, eye-photo'd etc. The computer knows all my vital statistics and what I had for breakfast. Already, the Force knows me intimately - right now they probably have to make a small effort to draw all the info together, but it's there. And like the American constitutional right to bear arms, nothing is going to undo what's already there. I can't imagine why anyone would really want to be bothered tracking my phonecalls, my emails, my simple shopping purchases, my medical records, my tax forms, my eating habits and recording how many drop dead gorgeous aussie tanned surf lifesavers I party with. But if the Force suddenly decides that they do really need this information, I'm sure they can get it, right now, easily. So what's the big deal about having an Australia Card, or the American equivalent?
Well guys, to put it simple. The problem with it all is that the card is not their goal. The card is the necessary step before their goal. If they can get us to accept the card, they feel as though they can get us all to accept the microchip when they introduce it.
They are wrong at least with one person though. Myself. Because I will die or be imprisoned for life before I willingly accept an RFID chip in my body. Anywhere in my body.
As for the ID stuff, the State and Big Brother alone knows how many corporations etc have every detail about me already. On GoogleEarth you can see my house and how many cars are parked out front. Internet searches can pull up vast amounts of detail on everybody. I am just about to renew my Brit passport and that's biometric. Whenever I enter the United States I am routinely fingerprinted, eye-photo'd etc. The computer knows all my vital statistics and what I had for breakfast. Already, the Force knows me intimately - right now they probably have to make a small effort to draw all the info together, but it's there. And like the American constitutional right to bear arms, nothing is going to undo what's already there. I can't imagine why anyone would really want to be bothered tracking my phonecalls, my emails, my simple shopping purchases, my medical records, my tax forms, my eating habits and recording how many drop dead gorgeous aussie tanned surf lifesavers I party with. But if the Force suddenly decides that they do really need this information, I'm sure they can get it, right now, easily. So what's the big deal about having an Australia Card, or the American equivalent?
Well guys, to put it simple. The problem with it all is that the card is not their goal. The card is the necessary step before their goal. If they can get us to accept the card, they feel as though they can get us all to accept the microchip when they introduce it.
They are wrong at least with one person though. Myself. Because I will die or be imprisoned for life before I willingly accept an RFID chip in my body. Anywhere in my body.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
One other point I would like to make.
For some reason, many Americans in general have not only come to expect these kind of things from our government, but they have also come to accept them. But when did Americans forget that members of our government, including the president, are in no way shape or form above or better than any other Human Being on the planet? That goes for any homeless person sleeping on the street, as well as for any rich person sleeping in a mansion. God created us all equal. And that seems to be something that many people have forgotten.
So when any member of congress or any president or any senator or any group of politicians or ANY Human Being starts to treat the citizens of the United States as sheep, or as pawns, they are committing a cardinal sin in my opinion because no Human Being has the right to rule over another. Only God is qualified for such a thing. ONLY GOD.
And so when our government tells us that we will all be getting a National ID card and when they eventually tell us that we will all be getting a micro-chip implant, we have a God-given right to refuse it, and to tell them all to go kick rocks.
For some reason, many Americans in general have not only come to expect these kind of things from our government, but they have also come to accept them. But when did Americans forget that members of our government, including the president, are in no way shape or form above or better than any other Human Being on the planet? That goes for any homeless person sleeping on the street, as well as for any rich person sleeping in a mansion. God created us all equal. And that seems to be something that many people have forgotten.
So when any member of congress or any president or any senator or any group of politicians or ANY Human Being starts to treat the citizens of the United States as sheep, or as pawns, they are committing a cardinal sin in my opinion because no Human Being has the right to rule over another. Only God is qualified for such a thing. ONLY GOD.
And so when our government tells us that we will all be getting a National ID card and when they eventually tell us that we will all be getting a micro-chip implant, we have a God-given right to refuse it, and to tell them all to go kick rocks.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
The Real ID Act requires that states ensure the physical and electronic security of identification materials. The act does not set standards for that security, but instead puts millions of individuals' sensitive personal information - a goldmine for identity thieves - right out into the open.
The results of 2005 survey of state motor vehicles agencies conducted by the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA) reveal that those officials have deep concerns over the Real ID Act, and believe it will require extensive changes to existing practices at motor vehicles departments, will be extremely difficult to implement by the act's deadline, and will be very expensive to carry out. The survey makes clearer than ever that the Real ID Act would be a disaster for states, drivers, taxpayers, and citizens.
The Real ID Act was passed by Congress and signed by President Bush in May 2005. It would federalize state driver's license and identity cards by imposing a broad array of regulations on how they are designed, issued, and verified - turning them into what are, for all practical purposes, America's first-ever national identity cards.
Because the Act was rammed through Congress without proper hearings, debate, expert input, or an up-or-down vote, it fails to reflect the realities and complexities of real-world motor vehicle agencies in the 50 states. This is starkly revealed by the survey, in which officials in those agencies (called "DMV's" in many states) describe their concerns about the task of complying with this sprawling federal mandate. In written responses that are often scathing, plaintive, befuddled, or anxious, DMV officials from 50 U.S. jurisdictions collectively paint a picture of a gargantuan overhaul of the nation's diverse driver's license and identity bureaucracies.
The survey, which was first reported by the Associated Press, makes two things very clear. First, the DMVs are beginning to understand just what a tangled mess they are facing in having to try to comply with Real ID. And second, those effects will soon be felt by individual drivers and residents. In addition to worrying about the ominous privacy implications of creating a system of federal identity papers, Americans under Real ID are looking at a future of longer lines and worsening service at the DMV, more complicated document requirements, higher fees and/or taxes, bureaucratic dead-ends, and, for many, an outright denial of IDs - even as those IDs are made more indispensable for living a normal life. (Further analysis of the burdens Real ID poses for the states is available in the document "Real Burdens.")
The results of 2005 survey of state motor vehicles agencies conducted by the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA) reveal that those officials have deep concerns over the Real ID Act, and believe it will require extensive changes to existing practices at motor vehicles departments, will be extremely difficult to implement by the act's deadline, and will be very expensive to carry out. The survey makes clearer than ever that the Real ID Act would be a disaster for states, drivers, taxpayers, and citizens.
The Real ID Act was passed by Congress and signed by President Bush in May 2005. It would federalize state driver's license and identity cards by imposing a broad array of regulations on how they are designed, issued, and verified - turning them into what are, for all practical purposes, America's first-ever national identity cards.
Because the Act was rammed through Congress without proper hearings, debate, expert input, or an up-or-down vote, it fails to reflect the realities and complexities of real-world motor vehicle agencies in the 50 states. This is starkly revealed by the survey, in which officials in those agencies (called "DMV's" in many states) describe their concerns about the task of complying with this sprawling federal mandate. In written responses that are often scathing, plaintive, befuddled, or anxious, DMV officials from 50 U.S. jurisdictions collectively paint a picture of a gargantuan overhaul of the nation's diverse driver's license and identity bureaucracies.
The survey, which was first reported by the Associated Press, makes two things very clear. First, the DMVs are beginning to understand just what a tangled mess they are facing in having to try to comply with Real ID. And second, those effects will soon be felt by individual drivers and residents. In addition to worrying about the ominous privacy implications of creating a system of federal identity papers, Americans under Real ID are looking at a future of longer lines and worsening service at the DMV, more complicated document requirements, higher fees and/or taxes, bureaucratic dead-ends, and, for many, an outright denial of IDs - even as those IDs are made more indispensable for living a normal life. (Further analysis of the burdens Real ID poses for the states is available in the document "Real Burdens.")
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Unfortunately, although it is motor vehicle departments that are beginning to feel the heat now, it will ultimately be individuals - as drivers, taxpayers, and citizens who will pay the price for this misguided legislation.
Real ID will mean Longer waits at the DMV. Many states predict increases in "customer wait times." Arizona, for example, reports that Real ID will bring increased "customer traffic flow and customer wait/visit time in all field offices" and New Jersey that it will have a "significant influence on customer service."
With Real ID, there will be no more same-day licenses. Real ID "could largely prevent 'instant' or 'over the counter' (OTC) issuance of some or all of our DLs and IDs" in Illinois, and "will probably move Indiana from relatively instant issuance to having to mail documents to them." Nevada predicts that "the process for issuing a driver's license or identification card could range from 2 to 6 weeks pending approval of verified documents."
"There will also be fewer offices with Real ID. "Initial cost estimates indicate that . . .WI may have to close some itinerant field stations, especially if there are no federal funds available." (Wisconsin)
There will be no more Internet or mail transactions. In Illinois Real ID would reduce or end mail and Internet address changes and renewals; likewise Virginia warns starkly that "Renewal through alternative methods will be eliminated."
Document inconvenience. "We will have to significantly reduce the number and type of acceptable documents used." (Illinois)
No more mobile offices. Real ID "may significantly limit mobile unit use, perhaps make mobiles impractical." (Illinois)
Real ID will mean Longer waits at the DMV. Many states predict increases in "customer wait times." Arizona, for example, reports that Real ID will bring increased "customer traffic flow and customer wait/visit time in all field offices" and New Jersey that it will have a "significant influence on customer service."
With Real ID, there will be no more same-day licenses. Real ID "could largely prevent 'instant' or 'over the counter' (OTC) issuance of some or all of our DLs and IDs" in Illinois, and "will probably move Indiana from relatively instant issuance to having to mail documents to them." Nevada predicts that "the process for issuing a driver's license or identification card could range from 2 to 6 weeks pending approval of verified documents."
"There will also be fewer offices with Real ID. "Initial cost estimates indicate that . . .WI may have to close some itinerant field stations, especially if there are no federal funds available." (Wisconsin)
There will be no more Internet or mail transactions. In Illinois Real ID would reduce or end mail and Internet address changes and renewals; likewise Virginia warns starkly that "Renewal through alternative methods will be eliminated."
Document inconvenience. "We will have to significantly reduce the number and type of acceptable documents used." (Illinois)
No more mobile offices. Real ID "may significantly limit mobile unit use, perhaps make mobiles impractical." (Illinois)
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Many of the respondents refer bitterly to the fact that Real ID will be enormously expensive, yet includes no funding from the federal government. Over and over again the state respondents ask, as Maine put it, "Who will pay the hundreds of millions or even billions which this currently unfunded federal mandate will cost in individual states and across the nation."
If Real ID goes forward, the DMVs will have to raise fees and turn to legislators to secure new funding so citizens aren't left without identity documents that permit them to fly, enter federal courthouses, or carry out other necessary activities that count as "federal purposes" (a list that is sure to expand). But beyond the DMVs' struggle for funds lies the undeniable fact that when all is said and done, it will be the residents of the states who pay - not only in hassle, delay, and inconvenience, but in higher fees and/or taxes. Real ID's supporters may have slid it through Congress without the proper democratic process, but that does not make it any less of a real nightmare, pure and simple.
If Real ID goes forward, the DMVs will have to raise fees and turn to legislators to secure new funding so citizens aren't left without identity documents that permit them to fly, enter federal courthouses, or carry out other necessary activities that count as "federal purposes" (a list that is sure to expand). But beyond the DMVs' struggle for funds lies the undeniable fact that when all is said and done, it will be the residents of the states who pay - not only in hassle, delay, and inconvenience, but in higher fees and/or taxes. Real ID's supporters may have slid it through Congress without the proper democratic process, but that does not make it any less of a real nightmare, pure and simple.
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RedGlitter
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Santanico;762943 wrote: I just got a new laptop too, I love the fingerprint swiper! Saves me having to type in passwords all the time (lazy me, I know :p) I didn't think you had to do that tho, don't you still have the option of typing in a password to log on?
Interesting thread btw. I can see where you're coming from Truth, but frankly, I agree with the poeple in here that have said if you have nothing to hide, why worry about it? It's obviously going to happen no matter how strenuously people object. Note: I have read 1984 & found it to be one of the most terrifying books I've ever read, so believe me I understand what you're saying! It's just (and I know this sounds apathetic) I don't really see what anyone can do to stop it, and as long as it's just for monitoring, I don't see the harm.
Hi Santanico.
That's a dangerous attitude to have, I think. Whether you've something to hide or not, the point is you should have the option to should you choose.
Might as well wear a sign that says "Take my rights! I'm not using them!"
It won't stop at fingerprints and passports. Ever had an abortion? That'll be on there. Been treated for drug use? Booze addiction? Mental illness? That'll be on there. How much is in your bank account and who do you owe? They already have access to that information right now. Would you really want your employers knowing this stuff? Think they won't reject you or even fire you once they find out your dirt? Anything you wish to hide from your neighbors? Give that idea up. Don't think this info will be protected. They may have built a better mousetrap but someone else will build a better mouse.
In all fairness, TruthBringer sounds like a total conspiracist (no offense, TB) but in between all that stuff that sounds like it could never happen are things that can happen and things that already have happened or are happening. What right does the government, your employer or anyone else have to your private information?? None! And by us shrugging it off, they'll get away with it.
Interesting thread btw. I can see where you're coming from Truth, but frankly, I agree with the poeple in here that have said if you have nothing to hide, why worry about it? It's obviously going to happen no matter how strenuously people object. Note: I have read 1984 & found it to be one of the most terrifying books I've ever read, so believe me I understand what you're saying! It's just (and I know this sounds apathetic) I don't really see what anyone can do to stop it, and as long as it's just for monitoring, I don't see the harm.
Hi Santanico.
That's a dangerous attitude to have, I think. Whether you've something to hide or not, the point is you should have the option to should you choose.
Might as well wear a sign that says "Take my rights! I'm not using them!"
It won't stop at fingerprints and passports. Ever had an abortion? That'll be on there. Been treated for drug use? Booze addiction? Mental illness? That'll be on there. How much is in your bank account and who do you owe? They already have access to that information right now. Would you really want your employers knowing this stuff? Think they won't reject you or even fire you once they find out your dirt? Anything you wish to hide from your neighbors? Give that idea up. Don't think this info will be protected. They may have built a better mousetrap but someone else will build a better mouse.
In all fairness, TruthBringer sounds like a total conspiracist (no offense, TB) but in between all that stuff that sounds like it could never happen are things that can happen and things that already have happened or are happening. What right does the government, your employer or anyone else have to your private information?? None! And by us shrugging it off, they'll get away with it.
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Good point Red, maybe I came across as a little more blase than I meant to, I guess my question then would be what exactly can we do about it? I mean that seriously, how many times has the government said they're going to do something, most of the population objects, a lot even protest, start petitions etc and in the end the government does what it wants anyway. If anyone has a reasonable suggestion as to what I personally can do to stop this going ahead, I'd really like to hear it. Otherwise, I'm just gonna try and keep my nose as clean as possible 
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Santanico;769007 wrote: Good point Red, maybe I came across as a little more blase than I meant to, I guess my question then would be what exactly can we do about it? I mean that seriously, how many times has the government said they're going to do something, most of the population objects, a lot even protest, start petitions etc and in the end the government does what it wants anyway. If anyone has a reasonable suggestion as to what I personally can do to stop this going ahead, I'd really like to hear it. Otherwise, I'm just gonna try and keep my nose as clean as possible
The best thing we can do as a nation is the opposite of what they want us to do.
Simply this. Do not take the card. At whatever cost. No matter if you can't get a job, no matter if they throw you in jail.
Once enough people refuse the card, there will be too many for the government to deal with anyways.
History has shown us one thing. When the people unite and reach high levels of cooperation, the government is forced to either agree with the people or change their tactics.
This time will be no different. Let the government deal with all of us when we refuse the card. Let them take care of us all when we can't get a job. Let them keep us off of planes so that their corporations lose millions of dollars when their employees are unable to travel from place to place and from meeting to meeting. Let them try and throw us all in jail, they can't, there won't be enough jails to fill us all up in them. And they simply won't have the same courage and tenacity that we will have with our opposition to hold up their side of the battle.
They will fail if we simply refuse. It's that easy. I promise you that. There are few greater examples than that of people like Gandi and Martin Luther King Jr when it comes to using this strategy to it's finest.
The best thing we can do as a nation is the opposite of what they want us to do.
Simply this. Do not take the card. At whatever cost. No matter if you can't get a job, no matter if they throw you in jail.
Once enough people refuse the card, there will be too many for the government to deal with anyways.
History has shown us one thing. When the people unite and reach high levels of cooperation, the government is forced to either agree with the people or change their tactics.
This time will be no different. Let the government deal with all of us when we refuse the card. Let them take care of us all when we can't get a job. Let them keep us off of planes so that their corporations lose millions of dollars when their employees are unable to travel from place to place and from meeting to meeting. Let them try and throw us all in jail, they can't, there won't be enough jails to fill us all up in them. And they simply won't have the same courage and tenacity that we will have with our opposition to hold up their side of the battle.
They will fail if we simply refuse. It's that easy. I promise you that. There are few greater examples than that of people like Gandi and Martin Luther King Jr when it comes to using this strategy to it's finest.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
TENACITY
Te*nac"i*ty, n. [L. tenacitas: cf. F. t['e]nacit['e].
See {Tenacious}.]
1. The quality or state of being tenacious; as, tenacity, or
retentiveness, of memory; tenacity, or persistency, of
purpose.
2. That quality of bodies which keeps them from parting
without considerable force; cohesiveness; the effect of
attraction; -- as distinguished from brittleness,
fragility, mobility, etc.
3. That quality of bodies which makes them adhere to other
bodies (Example: the People united); adhesiveness; viscosity. --Holland.
4. (Physics) The greatest longitudinal stress a substance can
bear without tearing asunder, -- usually expressed with
reference to a unit area of the cross section of the
substance, as the number of pounds per square inch, or
kilograms per square centimeter, necessary to produce
rupture.
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/tenacity
Te*nac"i*ty, n. [L. tenacitas: cf. F. t['e]nacit['e].
See {Tenacious}.]
1. The quality or state of being tenacious; as, tenacity, or
retentiveness, of memory; tenacity, or persistency, of
purpose.
2. That quality of bodies which keeps them from parting
without considerable force; cohesiveness; the effect of
attraction; -- as distinguished from brittleness,
fragility, mobility, etc.
3. That quality of bodies which makes them adhere to other
bodies (Example: the People united); adhesiveness; viscosity. --Holland.
4. (Physics) The greatest longitudinal stress a substance can
bear without tearing asunder, -- usually expressed with
reference to a unit area of the cross section of the
substance, as the number of pounds per square inch, or
kilograms per square centimeter, necessary to produce
rupture.
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/tenacity
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
COURAGE:
Main Entry: cour·age
Pronunciation: ˈkər-ij, ˈkə-rij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English corage, from Anglo-French curage, from quer, coer heart, from Latin cor — more at heart
Date: 14th century
: mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty
courage implies firmness of mind and will in the face of danger or extreme difficulty
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/courage
SPIRIT:
Main Entry: 1spir·it
Pronunciation: ˈspir-ət
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French, espirit, spirit, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
Date: 13th century
a quality of temperament enabling one to hold one's own or keep up one's morale when opposed or threatened
Main Entry: cour·age
Pronunciation: ˈkər-ij, ˈkə-rij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English corage, from Anglo-French curage, from quer, coer heart, from Latin cor — more at heart
Date: 14th century
: mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty
courage implies firmness of mind and will in the face of danger or extreme difficulty
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/courage
SPIRIT:
Main Entry: 1spir·it
Pronunciation: ˈspir-ət
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French, espirit, spirit, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
Date: 13th century
a quality of temperament enabling one to hold one's own or keep up one's morale when opposed or threatened
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
A review of U.S. state laws on privacy and driver's licenses shows that there is an enormous variety in the statutes that are on the books in the various states. This has two important implications. First, it is clear that many states do not have adequate protections in place to combat the type of privacy invasions that Real ID will spur, such as the ability of private businesses to grab all your data off the new, standardized "machine readable zones" that Real IDs will be required to contain.
Second, for Real ID to take effect, a lot of states that do have privacy laws and other laws governing driver's licenses will have to scrap or revise those laws. That process will often be complicated, controversial, and time-consuming, and is another of the many practical obstacles that this most impractical Act must overcome.
The following is a chart that provides an overview of the relevant state laws that will require change as a result of Real ID. It was prepared by Min-Jae Lee, Lauren Gelman and Jennifer Granick of the Cyberlaw Clinic of Stanford Law School. It provides state-by-state information based on the following five criteria:
Any mention of liberty or privacy in the state constitution. Real ID is likely to conflict with these fundamental protections.
Any controls over what type of information can be included on a driver's license. That in turn may govern what information can be contained in cards with machine-readable zones, such as bar codes, RFID chips, or magnetic strips. Where they exist, such provisions may need to be harmonized with Real ID - and where they're absent, they could allow the machine-readable zone to expand to contain an ever-growing amount of information about the cardholder.
Any privacy protections that the state currently mandates for the technology employed in the driver's license, such as digital image capture or magnetic strips. For example, some states bar inclusion of social security numbers, or data not on the face of the card, from current magnetic strips to prevent them from expanding into all-encompassing digital dossiers.
Any controls over who has access to the information contained on the physical license or in the MRZ. With a standardized national machine-readable zone, it will become easier than ever for a wide variety of peopl - from police officers and security guards to store clerks to bartenders - to access whatever data is on that license.
Any controls over what data can be collected from driver's licenses, where and for how long that information may be stored, and who is authorized to access that information. Where restrictions are lacking, private-sector companies, for example, will be tempted to begin compiling license data they grab into valuable databases that will be sold or traded.
As the chart demonstrates, many of the statutes crafted by individual states to protect the safety of their roads and the privacy of their citizens will be swept under the rug in favor of an unfunded mandate poised to do little to protect the nation from terrorism. The laundry list of state laws that will need to be revised in the face of the federal statute represents not only an enormously daunting feat for legislators, but also an arrogant, big government rebuke of states' rights.
Overall, it is clear that the Real ID Act's attempt to impose a rigid uniformity upon state licensing practices will have a sweeping impact on state laws protecting citizen and consumer privacy.
Second, for Real ID to take effect, a lot of states that do have privacy laws and other laws governing driver's licenses will have to scrap or revise those laws. That process will often be complicated, controversial, and time-consuming, and is another of the many practical obstacles that this most impractical Act must overcome.
The following is a chart that provides an overview of the relevant state laws that will require change as a result of Real ID. It was prepared by Min-Jae Lee, Lauren Gelman and Jennifer Granick of the Cyberlaw Clinic of Stanford Law School. It provides state-by-state information based on the following five criteria:
Any mention of liberty or privacy in the state constitution. Real ID is likely to conflict with these fundamental protections.
Any controls over what type of information can be included on a driver's license. That in turn may govern what information can be contained in cards with machine-readable zones, such as bar codes, RFID chips, or magnetic strips. Where they exist, such provisions may need to be harmonized with Real ID - and where they're absent, they could allow the machine-readable zone to expand to contain an ever-growing amount of information about the cardholder.
Any privacy protections that the state currently mandates for the technology employed in the driver's license, such as digital image capture or magnetic strips. For example, some states bar inclusion of social security numbers, or data not on the face of the card, from current magnetic strips to prevent them from expanding into all-encompassing digital dossiers.
Any controls over who has access to the information contained on the physical license or in the MRZ. With a standardized national machine-readable zone, it will become easier than ever for a wide variety of peopl - from police officers and security guards to store clerks to bartenders - to access whatever data is on that license.
Any controls over what data can be collected from driver's licenses, where and for how long that information may be stored, and who is authorized to access that information. Where restrictions are lacking, private-sector companies, for example, will be tempted to begin compiling license data they grab into valuable databases that will be sold or traded.
As the chart demonstrates, many of the statutes crafted by individual states to protect the safety of their roads and the privacy of their citizens will be swept under the rug in favor of an unfunded mandate poised to do little to protect the nation from terrorism. The laundry list of state laws that will need to be revised in the face of the federal statute represents not only an enormously daunting feat for legislators, but also an arrogant, big government rebuke of states' rights.
Overall, it is clear that the Real ID Act's attempt to impose a rigid uniformity upon state licensing practices will have a sweeping impact on state laws protecting citizen and consumer privacy.
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TruthBringer
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Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
In a few states legislation has been introduced that tries to move the states closer to overall compliance with the Act. The fact that each of these bills is distinct in its aims indicates a lack of clarity about what Real ID will actually require.
Despite differences in the individual bills, however, there are several reasons why all these bills are a bad idea:
Real ID isn't a sure thing. As states begin to realize the huge price tag and administrative burden associated with Real ID, more and more are calling for Congress to revisit the Act. With such criticism mounting, it is far from certain the Real ID will take effect in its current form. States that attempt to comply now risk wasting vast sums of money on a misguided law that isn't set in stone.
They are premature. The Department of Homeland Security has yet to issue final regulations describing precisely what states must do to comply with the Real ID Act. The draft regulations that have been published are deeply problematic. Until final rules are in place, it is impossible to know exactly what steps must be taken to comply fully with the Act, and even after carrying out this kind of legislation, motor vehicle departments would not necessarily come into proper compliance.
It is unwise to buy a "pig in a poke." As the old saying goes, it is foolish to pay for something when you don't know what you're getting. Similarly, it is not smart to invest a large amount of state money in a Real ID bill without knowing how far this money will go toward actual compliance, and how much full compliance will ultimately cost.
They are incomplete. All the current bills that attempt to comply with Real ID leave out many required provisions of the Act. For example, many of the systems for document verification are either in their infancy or do not yet exist. Until the final regulations are released, it is impossible for states to draft complete legislation for Real ID implementation.
Despite differences in the individual bills, however, there are several reasons why all these bills are a bad idea:
Real ID isn't a sure thing. As states begin to realize the huge price tag and administrative burden associated with Real ID, more and more are calling for Congress to revisit the Act. With such criticism mounting, it is far from certain the Real ID will take effect in its current form. States that attempt to comply now risk wasting vast sums of money on a misguided law that isn't set in stone.
They are premature. The Department of Homeland Security has yet to issue final regulations describing precisely what states must do to comply with the Real ID Act. The draft regulations that have been published are deeply problematic. Until final rules are in place, it is impossible to know exactly what steps must be taken to comply fully with the Act, and even after carrying out this kind of legislation, motor vehicle departments would not necessarily come into proper compliance.
It is unwise to buy a "pig in a poke." As the old saying goes, it is foolish to pay for something when you don't know what you're getting. Similarly, it is not smart to invest a large amount of state money in a Real ID bill without knowing how far this money will go toward actual compliance, and how much full compliance will ultimately cost.
They are incomplete. All the current bills that attempt to comply with Real ID leave out many required provisions of the Act. For example, many of the systems for document verification are either in their infancy or do not yet exist. Until the final regulations are released, it is impossible for states to draft complete legislation for Real ID implementation.
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TruthBringer
- Posts: 3567
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:39 pm
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Passage of any legislation enabling the federal REAL ID Act of 2005 is premature. REAL ID forces almost every American over the age of 16 to carry a common identity document and use it for all federal purposes including flying or entering a federal building. In short it is a National ID. REAL ID law represents a grave danger to the privacy of citizens and lawmakers should be cautious in implementing any of its provisions.
REAL ID will represent an enormous administrative burden. States will likely have to copy, store and verify as many as four different documents in order to grant every drivers license. This will mean long lines for consumers and increased costs, either in the form of higher taxes or license fees. The DMV will also have to change the composition of their license and the way that information is stored in a machine-readable format. The Act also calls for the creation of a system to link all state motor vehicle databases. The cost of these changes is likely to run in the billions of dollars. Currently no federal funds have been appropriated to implement REAL ID.
The Federal Trade Commission estimates that 10 million Americans are victims of identity theft annually. The drivers license contains valuable information for an identity thief including date of birth, gender, driver's license or identification card number, digital photograph, address and signature. Identity thieves recognize this and are increasingly targeting state Motor Vehicle Departments. REAL ID will make drivers license information accessible from tens of thousands of locations across the country.
Requiring the machine-readable elements of the drivers license to be standardized enables the private sector to collect and save this information. Bars swiping licenses to collect personal data on customers will be just the tip of the iceberg as every convenience store learns to grab that data and sell it to data aggregators like ChoicePoint. This data will become part of existing private sector databases not subject even to the limited privacy rules in effect for the government.
REAL ID will represent an enormous administrative burden. States will likely have to copy, store and verify as many as four different documents in order to grant every drivers license. This will mean long lines for consumers and increased costs, either in the form of higher taxes or license fees. The DMV will also have to change the composition of their license and the way that information is stored in a machine-readable format. The Act also calls for the creation of a system to link all state motor vehicle databases. The cost of these changes is likely to run in the billions of dollars. Currently no federal funds have been appropriated to implement REAL ID.
The Federal Trade Commission estimates that 10 million Americans are victims of identity theft annually. The drivers license contains valuable information for an identity thief including date of birth, gender, driver's license or identification card number, digital photograph, address and signature. Identity thieves recognize this and are increasingly targeting state Motor Vehicle Departments. REAL ID will make drivers license information accessible from tens of thousands of locations across the country.
Requiring the machine-readable elements of the drivers license to be standardized enables the private sector to collect and save this information. Bars swiping licenses to collect personal data on customers will be just the tip of the iceberg as every convenience store learns to grab that data and sell it to data aggregators like ChoicePoint. This data will become part of existing private sector databases not subject even to the limited privacy rules in effect for the government.
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TruthBringer
- Posts: 3567
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:39 pm
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
In the days after 9/11, President Bush and others proclaimed that we must not let the terrorists change American life. It is now clear that despite its lack of effectiveness against actual terrorism we have allowed our security agencies to push us into making a deep, far-reaching change to the character of American life. Identification is already necessary to board a plane, open a bank account or participate in many routine activities that are part of living in a modern society. REAL ID dramatically expands the use of identification and its intrusions. It was passed without hearing or stand-alone vote on its merits in Congress. The federal government has already abdicated its responsibility to consider the serious issues raised by REAL ID.
REAL ID requires the capture of a digital photograph that lays the groundwork for a sophisticated biometric system that allows for electronic storage and easy comparison against other facial images. The new system envisioned under REAL ID warrants a rethinking of this open access by law enforcement.
Legislators have a duty to see that whatever state level legislation passes regarding REAL ID addresses these real and serious concerns. Moreover, if none of these issues are addressed the state must consider the possibility that, in order to protect the rights of Americans, the states must reject REAL ID and attempt to force Congress to repeal or amend it.
REAL ID requires the capture of a digital photograph that lays the groundwork for a sophisticated biometric system that allows for electronic storage and easy comparison against other facial images. The new system envisioned under REAL ID warrants a rethinking of this open access by law enforcement.
Legislators have a duty to see that whatever state level legislation passes regarding REAL ID addresses these real and serious concerns. Moreover, if none of these issues are addressed the state must consider the possibility that, in order to protect the rights of Americans, the states must reject REAL ID and attempt to force Congress to repeal or amend it.
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TruthBringer
- Posts: 3567
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:39 pm
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
What are the States saying about REAL ID? Not good things:
ALABAMA
Alabama's attempt to take Real ID for a test drive has been a disaster.
"Legislator Says He Will Oppose National License," The Times Daily, February 9, 2007. http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... 90328/1011
"Real ID Intrusive, Says State Lawmaker," Tuscaloosa News, February 7, 2007. http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/2 ... 010/NEWS05
"Driver's License Woes Expected to Get Worse," Tuscaloosa News, November 5, 2006. http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/apps/pbcs ... 007/NEWS02
National survey of motor vehicles administrators uncovers deep concern over Real ID across the nation.
"Documents Show Alabama Department of Public Safety has Serious Concerns About New Driver's Licence Law," ACLU Press Release; http://www.aclualabama.org/News/PressRe ... 011306.htm
Mark Harrison, "License confusion possible," [Fort Payne, Alabama] Times-Journal, October 1, 2005 http://times-journal.com/story.lasso?WCD=4641Online >
Alabama officials' response to national survey of DMV's on problems posed by Real ID is available here. http://www.realnightmare.org/images/File/Alabama.pdf
Watch this space for actions you can take to stop Real ID in Alabama
For more information http://www.aclualabama.org/
ALABAMA
Alabama's attempt to take Real ID for a test drive has been a disaster.
"Legislator Says He Will Oppose National License," The Times Daily, February 9, 2007. http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... 90328/1011
"Real ID Intrusive, Says State Lawmaker," Tuscaloosa News, February 7, 2007. http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/2 ... 010/NEWS05
"Driver's License Woes Expected to Get Worse," Tuscaloosa News, November 5, 2006. http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/apps/pbcs ... 007/NEWS02
National survey of motor vehicles administrators uncovers deep concern over Real ID across the nation.
"Documents Show Alabama Department of Public Safety has Serious Concerns About New Driver's Licence Law," ACLU Press Release; http://www.aclualabama.org/News/PressRe ... 011306.htm
Mark Harrison, "License confusion possible," [Fort Payne, Alabama] Times-Journal, October 1, 2005 http://times-journal.com/story.lasso?WCD=4641Online >
Alabama officials' response to national survey of DMV's on problems posed by Real ID is available here. http://www.realnightmare.org/images/File/Alabama.pdf
Watch this space for actions you can take to stop Real ID in Alabama
For more information http://www.aclualabama.org/
Link removed by moderator
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TruthBringer
- Posts: 3567
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:39 pm
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
ALASKA
"Lawmakers Consider Whether to Oppose National ID Card," Associated Press, February 15, 2008. http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=7876038
"Lawmakers Oppose National ID by Opposing Funds for it," Juno Empire, February 15, 2008. http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/021 ... 5977.shtml
"Senator Calls Real ID Law an Intrusion," Anchorage Daily News, February 15, 2008. http://www.adn.com/front/story/315722.html
"The Answer Still is No," Anchorage Daily News Editorial, January 18, 2007. http://www.adn.com/opinion/view/story/286462.html
"'Real ID' Meets Opposition from State Lawmaker," KTUU News, January 12, 2008. http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=7617024
"National ID Card Proposal a Bad Idea," Anchorage Daily News Editorial, September 10, 2007. http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/091 ... 0001.shtml
"Big Brother is Almost Here," Juneau Empire, July 13, 2007. http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/071 ... d001.shtml
"Real ID Act has some concerned," KTUU Anchorage, March 4, 2007. http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S= ... =menu510_2
Jo Dee Pederson, "Yes, I really am Jo Dee. Still. Really." Anchorage Daily News, November 1, 2006. http://dwb.adn.com/opinion/compass/stor ... 0700c.html
Alaska refuses to go forward with national ID system: SB-189 dies in committee. http://www.legis.state.ak.us/basis/get_ ... &comm=HSTA
"Lawmakers Consider Whether to Oppose National ID Card," Associated Press, February 15, 2008. http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=7876038
"Lawmakers Oppose National ID by Opposing Funds for it," Juno Empire, February 15, 2008. http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/021 ... 5977.shtml
"Senator Calls Real ID Law an Intrusion," Anchorage Daily News, February 15, 2008. http://www.adn.com/front/story/315722.html
"The Answer Still is No," Anchorage Daily News Editorial, January 18, 2007. http://www.adn.com/opinion/view/story/286462.html
"'Real ID' Meets Opposition from State Lawmaker," KTUU News, January 12, 2008. http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=7617024
"National ID Card Proposal a Bad Idea," Anchorage Daily News Editorial, September 10, 2007. http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/091 ... 0001.shtml
"Big Brother is Almost Here," Juneau Empire, July 13, 2007. http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/071 ... d001.shtml
"Real ID Act has some concerned," KTUU Anchorage, March 4, 2007. http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S= ... =menu510_2
Jo Dee Pederson, "Yes, I really am Jo Dee. Still. Really." Anchorage Daily News, November 1, 2006. http://dwb.adn.com/opinion/compass/stor ... 0700c.html
Alaska refuses to go forward with national ID system: SB-189 dies in committee. http://www.legis.state.ak.us/basis/get_ ... &comm=HSTA
Link removed by moderator
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TruthBringer
- Posts: 3567
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:39 pm
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
ARIZONA
"Arizona GOP Lawmakers Vow Fight Against 3-in-1 License," The Daily Dispatch, December 17, 2007. http://www.douglasdispatch.com/articles ... 979267.txt
"Unlikely Allies Unite to Fight Enhanced-ID Plan," Arizona Republic, December 13, 2007. http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... e1213.html
"Senate Bill on Path to Ignore Real ID," Tuscon Citizen, March 8, 2007. http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/44228.php
"Arizona Senate OKs Complaint About ID Law," Tuscon Citizen, February 20, 2007. http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/42508.php
"Bills Would Protect Arizona's Wallets, Privacy," Arizona Daily Star, February 13, 2007. http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/168921
"Feds Need to Add Reality to Real ID," East Valley Tribune Editorial, February 11, 2007. http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/83929
"No One Certain What Real ID Act Will Cost Arizona," Yuma Sun, January 12, 2006.
Arizona legislation prohibiting the Real ID Act. http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/hb2677p.htm
"Arizona GOP Lawmakers Vow Fight Against 3-in-1 License," The Daily Dispatch, December 17, 2007. http://www.douglasdispatch.com/articles ... 979267.txt
"Unlikely Allies Unite to Fight Enhanced-ID Plan," Arizona Republic, December 13, 2007. http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... e1213.html
"Senate Bill on Path to Ignore Real ID," Tuscon Citizen, March 8, 2007. http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/44228.php
"Arizona Senate OKs Complaint About ID Law," Tuscon Citizen, February 20, 2007. http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/42508.php
"Bills Would Protect Arizona's Wallets, Privacy," Arizona Daily Star, February 13, 2007. http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/168921
"Feds Need to Add Reality to Real ID," East Valley Tribune Editorial, February 11, 2007. http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/83929
"No One Certain What Real ID Act Will Cost Arizona," Yuma Sun, January 12, 2006.
Arizona legislation prohibiting the Real ID Act. http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/hb2677p.htm
Link removed by moderator
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TruthBringer
- Posts: 3567
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:39 pm
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
This ALERT is regarding the MORPHING of REAL ID in to the PASS ACT. The REAL ID as you may or may not know was the failed law that snuck through congress in May of 2005 that would require all Americans to Carry a standardized FEDERAL ID card with an embedded trackable chip.
Now we need to contact our senate committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs IMMEDIATELY to STOP THE PASS ACT – S.1261
Special interests groups are trying to force Democrats, Independents and Republicans to support this legislation. States have been and are working to ensure drivers licenses are secure documents and have document integrity. The federal government, in spite of the states, wants to set international standards that are not needed. The federal government wants control of your state drivers license. The federal government is bribing states to go along with its plans.
Our freedom and our rights are not for sale!
Some governors want to take the bribe money.
The senate committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs will be considering the legislation very soon.
The PASS Act does not repeal the Real ID Act. It does repeal provisions of the Real ID Act; those provisions that are included in Title II of the Real ID Act 2005. The Real ID Act is still intact and is federal law.
The PASS Act contains many of the most egregious aspects of the Real ID Act; including the requirement for a digital facial image/photograph that will be mandated to be internationally facial recognition compatible.
There is not a federal law that prohibits the simultaneous use of CCTV/surveillance cameras and facial recognition technology in real time.
The PASS Act will do nothing to provide a higher level of National security. Under the provisions of the PASS Act the documents used to obtain a drivers license are not authenticated. These documents are called breeder documents.
Although requirements for new databases and the linking of databases are not part of the PASS Act the fact remains through aamva.net and NLETS states can still have information contained in their state Department of Motor Vehicles made available to both federal and international law enforcement agencies without a court order.
Two international agencies (AAMVA and the ICAO, an agency of the United Nations) were involved in U.S. policy and law – the Real ID Act 2005 and the newly proposed PASS Act. DHS has called AAMVA the hub and backbone of the Real ID Act. On AAMVAs own web-site it proclaims it is an international organization that serves law enforcement and motor vehicle administrators.
Both the Real ID Act and the PASS Act result in Americans being enrolled into a single global biometric identification system that links a persons body to their ability to buy and sell.
WE ARE ASKING EVERY AMERICAN TO CALL EACH OF THE SENATORS in the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs committee AND SAY:
We are opposed to the Real ID Act and the PASS Act
We are opposed to being enrolled into a biometric identification system
We do not want our social security numbers in state DMV databases
We do not want RFID chips in our drivers licenses
We are opposed to the federal government intervening in the issuance of state drivers licenses
TAKE ACTION RIGHT NOW AND CONTACT call these numbers:
Senator Lieberman (20… Chairman
Senator Collins (202) 224-2523
Senator Akaka (202) 224-6361
Senator Bennet (202) 224-5852
Senator Burris (202) 224-2854
Senator Carper (202) 224-2441
Senator Coburn (202) 224-5754
Senator Ensign (202) 224-6244
Senator Graham (202) 224-5972
Senator Landrieu (202) 224-5824
Senator Levin (202) 224-6221
Senator McCain (202) 224-2235
Senator McCaskill (202) 224-6154
Senator Pryor (202) 224-2353
Senator Tester (202) 224-2644
Senator Voinovich (202) 224-3353
The First, Fourth and Tenth Amendments are under attack. The Second Amendment will follow. This is not a partisan issue. All Americans must take action now. 16 calls per American, 16 minutes (one minute per call) for a Lifetime of Freedom.
This Alert has been provided by the STOP REAL ID COALITON and Restore the Republic.
Please forward this ALERT to all you know, embed it on your favorite blogs and forums, and take action now to preserve freedom in America!
YouTube - Emergency Alert Stop the NEW Real ID S.1261 The PASS Act
Video: Emergency Alert – Stop the NEW Real ID – S.1261 – The PASS Act
Now we need to contact our senate committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs IMMEDIATELY to STOP THE PASS ACT – S.1261
Special interests groups are trying to force Democrats, Independents and Republicans to support this legislation. States have been and are working to ensure drivers licenses are secure documents and have document integrity. The federal government, in spite of the states, wants to set international standards that are not needed. The federal government wants control of your state drivers license. The federal government is bribing states to go along with its plans.
Our freedom and our rights are not for sale!
Some governors want to take the bribe money.
The senate committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs will be considering the legislation very soon.
The PASS Act does not repeal the Real ID Act. It does repeal provisions of the Real ID Act; those provisions that are included in Title II of the Real ID Act 2005. The Real ID Act is still intact and is federal law.
The PASS Act contains many of the most egregious aspects of the Real ID Act; including the requirement for a digital facial image/photograph that will be mandated to be internationally facial recognition compatible.
There is not a federal law that prohibits the simultaneous use of CCTV/surveillance cameras and facial recognition technology in real time.
The PASS Act will do nothing to provide a higher level of National security. Under the provisions of the PASS Act the documents used to obtain a drivers license are not authenticated. These documents are called breeder documents.
Although requirements for new databases and the linking of databases are not part of the PASS Act the fact remains through aamva.net and NLETS states can still have information contained in their state Department of Motor Vehicles made available to both federal and international law enforcement agencies without a court order.
Two international agencies (AAMVA and the ICAO, an agency of the United Nations) were involved in U.S. policy and law – the Real ID Act 2005 and the newly proposed PASS Act. DHS has called AAMVA the hub and backbone of the Real ID Act. On AAMVAs own web-site it proclaims it is an international organization that serves law enforcement and motor vehicle administrators.
Both the Real ID Act and the PASS Act result in Americans being enrolled into a single global biometric identification system that links a persons body to their ability to buy and sell.
WE ARE ASKING EVERY AMERICAN TO CALL EACH OF THE SENATORS in the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs committee AND SAY:
We are opposed to the Real ID Act and the PASS Act
We are opposed to being enrolled into a biometric identification system
We do not want our social security numbers in state DMV databases
We do not want RFID chips in our drivers licenses
We are opposed to the federal government intervening in the issuance of state drivers licenses
TAKE ACTION RIGHT NOW AND CONTACT call these numbers:
Senator Lieberman (20… Chairman
Senator Collins (202) 224-2523
Senator Akaka (202) 224-6361
Senator Bennet (202) 224-5852
Senator Burris (202) 224-2854
Senator Carper (202) 224-2441
Senator Coburn (202) 224-5754
Senator Ensign (202) 224-6244
Senator Graham (202) 224-5972
Senator Landrieu (202) 224-5824
Senator Levin (202) 224-6221
Senator McCain (202) 224-2235
Senator McCaskill (202) 224-6154
Senator Pryor (202) 224-2353
Senator Tester (202) 224-2644
Senator Voinovich (202) 224-3353
The First, Fourth and Tenth Amendments are under attack. The Second Amendment will follow. This is not a partisan issue. All Americans must take action now. 16 calls per American, 16 minutes (one minute per call) for a Lifetime of Freedom.
This Alert has been provided by the STOP REAL ID COALITON and Restore the Republic.
Please forward this ALERT to all you know, embed it on your favorite blogs and forums, and take action now to preserve freedom in America!
YouTube - Emergency Alert Stop the NEW Real ID S.1261 The PASS Act
Video: Emergency Alert – Stop the NEW Real ID – S.1261 – The PASS Act
Link removed by moderator
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
Well what happened then ? It's now 2016.................
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
At Gill's nativity
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at her birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at her birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
well, apparently not much.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
spot;1497493 wrote: At Gill's nativity
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at her birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.
Why, thank you spot ! (not shure about the coward bit tho) LOL
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at her birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.
Why, thank you spot ! (not shure about the coward bit tho) LOL
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Are You Guys Ready For Your National ID Card?
It's a bit of Shakespeare about a chap who can call spirits from the vasty deep, which seems to be what you've just attempted.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.