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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

It's sad and angering to see people perpetuate such unfounded tripe and pepper it with pictures with no regard to context.



Exactly how many reporters have the Pentagon assassinated?
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Post by LilacDragon »

Thats fascinating, MF.

Did you see how these children were killed - or are you taking the word of those who want you to believe that the U.S. is responsible for all of the world's problems?

Muslim extremists in Iraq have taken more civilian lives - including women and children - then all of the foreign military forces in country. They TARGET them on purpose. They use local "obviously starving" children to lure U.S. vehicles onto buried IEDs. Sorry I don't have pictures but I do have the word of someone who I have known for years and served there.
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Post by spot »

LilacDragon;702048 wrote: Muslim extremists in Iraq have taken more civilian lives - including women and children - then all of the foreign military forces in country. They TARGET them on purpose. They use local "obviously starving" children to lure U.S. vehicles onto buried IEDs. Sorry I don't have pictures but I do have the word of someone who I have known for years and served there.


I'm quite interested in your view, LilacDragon. What do you suggest the Iraqi nationalist resistance fight with? You do accept, presumably, that there is an Iraqi nationalist resistance, and that it doesn't have any air power or tanks or armored troop carriers or satellite imagery at its disposal? You do accept, presumably, that a nationalist resistance is an acceptable and predictable consequence of any foreign occupation of any country?
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Post by JacksDad »

The media is far more dangerous than the war.





Want more?



Mags. Did you think about Forum members with friends and family in the war before you posted that?

I'm shocked.

You've let your anti-war passion overtake your compassion for human beings.

Much like someone would choose an animal over a child.

I'm truly shocked.:-1
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Post by spot »

JacksDad;702069 wrote: You've let your anti-war passion overtake your compassion for human beings.I don't think she has, JD. There are a million fewer living Iraqis today than there would have been if the US hadn't "liberated" their country, and there are millions more living as transient refugees in places like Syria, Jordan and Iran. Compassion for human beings starts with the victims, not the aggressors. There is an action and a consequence. The action is the "liberation", the consequence is the million deaths. Anything else is deviant sophistry.
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Post by Accountable »

spot;702072 wrote: I don't think she has, JD. There are a million fewer living Iraqis today than there would have been if the US hadn't "liberated" their country, and there are millions more living as transient refugees in places like Syria, Jordan and Iran. Compassion for human beings starts with the victims, not the aggressors. There is an action and a consequence. The action is the "liberation", the consequence is the million deaths. Anything else is deviant sophistry.
Is this the estimated net surplus dead over those that would have been murdered by Hussein's regime?
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Post by spot »

Accountable;702079 wrote: Is this the estimated net surplus dead over those that would have been murdered by Hussein's regime?


Of course it is. Read the Lancet report's methodology and the peer review assessments.

You have a strange idea of the number of deaths caused by the Baathist government over the last few years, it's a drop in the ocean compared to what happened after they fell.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Magneta F

I'm appauled - and your purpose for this thread is what?

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Post by spot »

Accountable;702044 wrote: It's sad and angering to see people perpetuate such unfounded tripe and pepper it with pictures with no regard to context. Here, try some Iraqi blogs instead if you prefer those... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/6940384.stm

I particularly draw your attention to "PLEASE the last thing I need is someone to argue with me and tell me the war is for our own good, because I live in Iraq and I can tell you, we had a better life...". The entry is titled "Sunshine is a 15-year-old girl in Mosul, northern Iraq". Perhaps you think it's a fraud?
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Post by RedGlitter »

This thread is an insult. I'm sure everyone who has someone over there or lost someone there appreciates seeing these pictures (sarcasm) but considering the source of the posting, I am not a bit surprised at the complete lack of forethought involved.

It's war. People get slaughtered. What else would one expect? It was utter selfishness on the part of the poster to have put these photographs up.

This poster's politics and lack of respect for the sensibilities of others are disgusting.
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Post by LilacDragon »

spot;702061 wrote: I'm quite interested in your view, LilacDragon. What do you suggest the Iraqi nationalist resistance fight with? You do accept, presumably, that there is an Iraqi nationalist resistance, and that it doesn't have any air power or tanks or armored troop carriers or satellite imagery at its disposal? You do accept, presumably, that a nationalist resistance is an acceptable and predictable consequence of any foreign occupation of any country?


Get a grip!

Do you honestly believe that the people attacking both military forces and local civilians are born and bred Iraqis?

Let's just make sure you DO understand where I am coming from.

I DO NOT agree with the invasion of Iraq. While I do think that the previous government needed to go - it was not our business. The terrorists that we were hunting were not from Iraq. (However - the Iraqi people both in Iraq and here in the U.S. seemed plenty happy to see Sudam Hussein overthrown by our military. I live not 50 miles from Dearborn, Mi., where it is said that the largest settlement of Iraqi settlers have settled - and they are not unhappy with the original invasion. Just with the resulting civil war.)

I DO NOT support President Bush in this or most anything else he has done in our country. I have NEVER voted for anyone named Bush. I think that the current President is a liar and a theif (no - I will not go into that in depth.) and I think that he should be impeached and charged as such.

I DO believe that it is our responsiblity to remain in Iraq until the government is able to protect it's citizens. I DO believe that if we leave the mess the way it is that it will become one big terrorist training camp and those things learned there will be brought to my home - in a much larger scale then 9/11.

I DO support our troops. Heart and soul, with every breath I take.
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Post by LilacDragon »

spot;702072 wrote: I don't think she has, JD. There are a million fewer living Iraqis today than there would have been if the US hadn't "liberated" their country, and there are millions more living as transient refugees in places like Syria, Jordan and Iran. Compassion for human beings starts with the victims, not the aggressors. There is an action and a consequence. The action is the "liberation", the consequence is the million deaths. Anything else is deviant sophistry.


You seem to be as in the dark as MF.

Try comparing the number of civilians killed by the U.S. military as compared to the insurgents that arrived "in country" after the fall of Hussein.

I am outraged too. That people like you - who seem so intelligent - are willing to condemn a group that follows a rather strict code (except maybe for those roque few) and believe the propaganda spewed by the insurgents and their supporters.
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Post by JacksDad »

Spot my point is that media can say anything they want

Shall I post links to proof that UFO's exist?

Elvis is alive?

Smoking is good for you?

AND

Those pictures do not belong on a forum that consists largely of family people.

Folks who may have friends and relatives over there.

Mind if I post some pedophilia links next?

I'm sure it won't bother anyone.

How about some snuff films?

:-5
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Post by spot »

Thank you both, I appreciate the reasonable nature of your replies.

I do, as it happens, think that most of the anti-US insurgency in Iraq is Iraqi and not "foreign elements" but I don't insist on the point. I'm quite convinced, though, that they pose far less of a risk to the US and UK than the politicians and armed forces of the US and the UK do themselves. The insurgents are a gadfly pinprick whether they stay in the Middle East or come home to roost - not that I see any possible way for them to do that. Either way they're insignificant compared with the evil reactionary imperialists running our governments at the moment.

That's why I'd be pleased to see Iraq and Afghanistan bog down our combined forces for the next generation. There's obviously no "victory" to be had at the end of the line there. Whenever we pull out - in six months, six years or sixteen years - the Iraqi leadership we leave behind will be as hostile to the West as Iran is at the moment, and for exactly the same reason - we have interfered with their internal affairs. What's essential is that both our countries leave shamefaced, humiliated, defeated and incapable of committing more war crimes for the foreseeable future. We must not only be beaten, we must be seen to have been beaten by all concerned.

As for freedom fighters or terrorists: the US spent billions of dollars arming the Mujahideen, when Afghanistan was under Soviet occupation with their own selected communist Afghan leaders in charge of the country. If we called them freedom fighters then we can damned well call them freedom fighters now as well, they're doing exactly the same job against a foreign army of occupation.
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Post by LilacDragon »

Hmmm. I wasn't aware we had a large Welsh contingent in Iraq.

I am very proud to be an American - with all of our issues. I am very proud of our military men and women who volunteer to lay down their lives so that others may be free. I see absolutely no need to have my country or my military beaten and shamefaced to prove your point. Do I think we can "win" in Iraq? I don't know. But if our being there helps the new government get on it's feet to run it's own country - then our job is done.

I really don't know how to break it to you - but G. Bush is one man. While I certainly don't understand what those who voted for him saw in him, I would imagine that the second election was more about "the fool you know is better then the idiot you don't know". At least I sure hope that was the thinking!

As for war crimes - cry me a river. While I may not agree with what happened at Abbu Grab, the prisoners there are much more likely to come out alive then any American soldier taken by insurgents. Time and time again, it has been shown that an American (whether it be a combatant or not) taken prisoner has literally no chance of getting out alive. And they will most likely be tortured and killed in front of a video camera so that the world can see. And still we are seen as the barbarians.
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Post by spot »

We do seem to differ in our approach, I'll grant you that. You see your "military men and women who volunteer to lay down their lives so that others may be free", I see those same people as volunteers who accept pay and training in exchange for promising to go wherever they're sent overseas and kill on command. What is this drivel about "so that others may be free"? That's the sour verbiage that gets people killed in commercial quantities. Who was not free that now is? Are the million dead Iraqis more free now than they were before they were "liberated"? Your "so that others may be free" is one of those empty patriotic gestures which perpetuate the slaughter. Iraq is not the concern of the US. It never was the concern of the US. US interference in its internal affairs is why that particularly nasty Baathist regime stayed in power until the end - nobody can mount a successful forced change of government while there are external enemies hammering on the borders for year after year.

Whenever the Coalition leaves, the subsequent Iraqi government will be rabidly anti-American and with good cause. "if our being there helps the new government get on it's feet to run it's own country"? You cannot be serious.

George Bush is a non-entity, I haven't once mentioned him. Your White House administration, on the other hand, is the sole reason I have become so virulently opposed to the US ever regaining any influence in the world. If what's happened can happen once it can happen again and I'd rather you all went back to horse and cart than that you expand beyond your borders another time. You did it collectively, you can suffer for it collectively.

The war crime was in going to war in the first place, not the subsequent farce of the last five years. The domestic crime which nobody wants to pursue within the US was the administration's lying and pressure on the electorate which unleashed your dogs of war.
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Post by JacksDad »

A valid argument my sister from another mister.

That was just way too graphic.

I applaud your passion on the issue. And I won't debate who's right or wrong here.

Those pics were just far too explicit for FG.

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Post by Richard Bell »

LilacDragon;702161 wrote: Hmmm. I wasn't aware we had a large Welsh contingent in Iraq.




There are about 5,000 troops from the United Kingdom serving in Iraq.

Wales is part of the United Kingdom.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Certainly theres censorship - but I don't need to see a soldiers face blown off with brain matter exposed to realise what WAR is.

The pictures that Magneta Flame made available were appauling

I know we're at WAR - I know what WAR is - I know what WAR involves.

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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Scrat

Your Politicians see the wreckage and still do nothing

you stated if the people see this wreckage it wouldn't continue ??

I'd say its out of our hands - have you written your Senator lately?

Perhaps Magneta F should forward her photos to her elected official to stop the WAR... I didn't know it would be that easy...

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Post by RedGlitter »

For christ sake woman! well you just move on down the road with the rest of the cosy people of "I wrote a letter to congress blah blah blah"


More rudeness again huh.

You're not the messenger or the USA's guardian angel by a damned sight. That's not what you're concerned about at all.

As for how Australia feels about it. I respectfully submit, who the hell cares?! :thinking:
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Post by JacksDad »

RedGlitter;702332 wrote: More rudeness again huh.

You're not the messenger or the USA's guardian angel by a damned sight. That's not what you're concerned about at all.

As for how Australia feels about it. I respectfully submit, who the hell cares?! :thinking:


She makes a good point there.

It's gotten to the place where The US gov doesn't give a crap about what citizens care about.

RedGlitter;702332 wrote:

As for how Australia feels about it. I respectfully submit, who the hell cares?! :thinking:


That it insane.

We live in a planet called Earth, honey. All of us. Not just a country. Not just Arizona.
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Post by RedGlitter »

JD, I'd really rather you not call me honey. I know and you know endearment is not what you have toward me. Thanks.

This "bad ol' USA" stuff is tired and I don't have the desire to defend it yet one more time. We're in a war and war is ugly. That's been recognized. As for your last comment, I don't do patronization.If anyone's surprised by the carnage involved, I would suggest it is them who needs to step out of their neighborhood and see the bigger picture.
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Post by spot »

Meanwhile, may I urge our US members to vote Republican in the next Federal elections please? There's one particular bunch of people who deliberately and with forethought got US armed forces into the Middle East by manipulating events and opinions, I'd hate to see them let off the hook when it comes to finding a solution for their actions. The idea that the Republican Party will be able to look back at a 2008 Democrat victory and say "that's why the US lost" is not acceptable - they have to be given enough rope to hang themselves in public.

Here's Mark Hudson discussing PNAC in a letter to The New American in December 2006:This group of powerful policy directors, which happened to make up the new presidential administration, got exactly what they needed to put their plan into play. The plan of taking control of society and the world, having an excuse to start a perpetual "War on Terror," starting the doctrine of pre-emptive war which would include Iraq and eventually Iran, and dismantling the Constitution and Bill of Rights through the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act--not to mention focusing on modernizing our military--just a coincidence? I think not!
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Post by JacksDad »

No argument here, Spot.
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Post by JacksDad »

RedGlitter;702358 wrote: JD, I'd really rather you not call me honey. I know and you know endearment is not what you have toward me. Thanks.

This "bad ol' USA" stuff is tired and I don't have the desire to defend it yet one more time. We're in a war and war is ugly. That's been recognized. As for your last comment, I don't do patronization.If anyone's surprised by the carnage involved, I would suggest it is them who needs to step out of their neighborhood and see the bigger picture.


One of us misunderstood the others posts here.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

MAGENTA FLAME- messenger



BANG

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Post by BTS »

spot;702061 wrote: I'm quite interested in your view, LilacDragon. What do you suggest the Iraqi nationalist resistance fight with? You do accept, presumably, that there is an Iraqi nationalist resistance, and that it doesn't have any air power or tanks or armored troop carriers or satellite imagery at its disposal? You do accept, presumably, that a nationalist resistance is an acceptable and predictable consequence of any foreign occupation of any country?


So are you saying it is OK to blow up fellow innocent citizens by the thousands?
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Post by spot »

BTS;702459 wrote: So are you saying it is OK to blow up fellow innocent citizens by the thousands?


"Innocent" is a difficult term to substantiate. There are collaborators just as there were in occupied France. There are deliberately inflamed sectarian tit-for-tat killings which at least started out sponsored by the occupying forces. There are terror-killings committed deliberately by US forces directly, irrespective of their surrogates. Every single excess death in Iraq is a consequence of the US "liberation" - it's cause and effect, and the "liberation" is the cause. Who pulls the trigger is irrelevant and impossible, from this distance, to determine. What I see are US planes bombing civilian targets in urban areas - a function which has resulted in the euphemism "collateral damage". I see occasional news mention of incidents like the Blackwater massacre knowing that another thousand killings of unarmed civilians never got into the news.

In general though, if it screws US policy in the region and pushes your carefree gullible murdering infantry and pilots back behind their own national borders then yes, the price of these "fellow innocent citizens by the thousands", as you put it, is far less than the alternative. The cost of a successful outcome for the US would be far higher in long-term suffering and death than a US humiliation will be. You have no place there, you have no business there. Some bunch of crooks in power in the USA has decided that one permanently crippled US recruit for every hundred deployments to the Middle East is an acceptable cost. You agree, others don't, I can't influence that decision but I can certainly hold an opinion about it.
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Post by spot »

Accountable;702044 wrote: It's sad and angering to see people perpetuate such unfounded tripe and pepper it with pictures with no regard to context.



Exactly how many reporters have the Pentagon assassinated?


Nobody picked up on this for some reason. Would it help if I do?

Here's the latest, if you're really interested then:The Blackwater incidents cited by Iraq's Interior Ministry as reason for the security firm to be barred from operating in Iraq include the deaths of four people with ties to Iraq's government-funded television network.

The first of those was the Feb. 2 shooting death of Suhad Shakir, a reporter with the Al Atyaf channel, as she was driving to work. She died outside the Foreign Ministry near the Green Zone, where top U.S. and Iraqi officials live and work. Five days later, three Iraqi security guards were gunned down inside the fortified compound that houses the government-funded Iraqi Media Network, which is also known as Iraqiya.

Habib Sadr, the network's director general, said the three guards, members of Iraq's Facilities Protection Service, were at their post at the back of the complex. A towering blast wall was a short distance in front of them to protect the compound from Haifa Street. According to Mr. Sadr and Interior Ministry officials, the three were picked off one by one by Blackwater snipers stationed on the roof of the 10-story Justice Ministry about 220 yards away on the opposite side of the street.The Committee to Protect Journalists lists 112 journalists killed in Iraq since the "liberation", and a further 40 media support workers. 90 were Iraqi, 13 European,2 American and 13 others. 15 are known to have been killed by US troops.Here is a statistical analysis of journalists killed in Iraq since hostilities began in March 2003, as compiled by the Committee to Protect Journalists. CPJ considers a journalist to be killed on duty if the person died as a result of a hostile action—such as reprisal for his or her work, or crossfire while carrying out a dangerous assignment. CPJ does not include journalists killed in accidents, such as car or plane crashes, unless the crash was caused by aggressive human action (for example, if a plane were shot down or a car crashed trying to avoid gunfire). Nor does CPJ include journalists who died of health ailments. Capsule reports detailing each death are available by following the links below.Targetting non-embedded reporters started early in the campaign and it's still a danger. "Ayyoub, a Jordanian national working with the Qatar-based satellite channel Al-Jazeera, was killed when a U.S. missile struck the station's Baghdad bureau", for example. "Couso, a cameraman for the Spanish television station Telecinco, and Protsyuk, a cameraman for Reuters, died after a U.S. tank fired a shell at the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad, Iraq's capital, where most journalists in the city were based during the war". "Dana, a veteran conflict cameraman for Reuters news agency, was killed by machine gun fire from a U.S. tank near the capital, Baghdad. Dana was struck in the torso while filming near Abu Ghraib Prison". "Kareem, director of Kurdistan TV's Mosul bureau, was shot and killed by U.S. forces outside the bureau's office along the Tigris River." I'll stop copy/pasting, the effect is much the same however many I list.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Scrat;702418 wrote: I must ask RG, why are you trying to defend this at all?


I'm not. This isn't of my battles. I resent the agenda behind posting that carnage and saying "Bad, bad USA!" It's stupid. The OP poster obviously has a personal problem with the US as we keep hearing about it from all angles and that is what this was about. Not concern for anyone. Where was the concern for the people here who have someone at war? How insensitive.
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Post by JacksDad »

RedGlitter;702518 wrote: I'm not. This isn't of my battles. I resent the agenda behind posting that carnage and saying "Bad, bad USA!" It's stupid. The OP poster obviously has a personal problem with the US as we keep hearing about it from all angles and that is what this was about. Not concern for anyone. Where was the concern for the people here who have someone at war? How insensitive.


That's where I'm with you Red.

Seems you and I don't belong in this thread.

That crap has been put to bed.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

To tell you the truth MF - I'm truely fed up with your insults.

This is suppose to be a discussion - all opinions welcome

You make it a Debate - in which you feel you have to win.

OK - your right of course and you win - feel better now.

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Post by spot »

RedGlitter;702518 wrote: Where was the concern for the people here who have someone at war? How insensitive.Explain how that bit works. People have joined the armed forces, yes? They've deliberately chosen to do that? What member of the US military has defended the US homeland in living memory? These people are not merely aggressors, they are conscious witting agents in the mass deliberate taking of lives on foreign soil, knowing that no element of homeland protection is involved. Who could possibly have any concern for their well-being? They could each have chosen not to join. They knew perfectly well that their contract included killing anyone their commander in chief designated. How immoral can you get? How much lower can a person sink?

These are people who killed on behalf of Donald Rumsfeld that you're defending. That's not an honorable position for anyone to find himself in.
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Post by abbey »

I'll explain how that works Spot.

Members here on FG who have family & friends serving in Iraq dont want to see images of how they could come home to them.

That was the reason i removed the link.

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