The Tamalpais High puzzle

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The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by spot »

No doubt matters will become more clear with time but at the moment, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/27/worl ... icans.html has me totally bemused.

Among other things, every US news report I've seen about this refers to the Carabinieri as "Italy’s military police" or "Paramilitary". Where does that notion originate? The Carabinieri are domestic police plain and simple.

I'm waiting now to see whether President Trump demands their immediate return like he's done with A$AP Rocky. Or perhaps they're not sufficiently high profile.

The way to make them high profile is to notice they went the the same school as 2Pac and presumably assimilated some of the most violent notions possible as a direct consequence - I refer to 2Pac's profuse rap output - and hence fall into the same category of offender as A$AP Rocky. These two left Tamalpais High last year in the bottom quartile of their academic scale (apparently three quarters of American students graduating high school have GPA "honors" which pretty much makes the term meaningless). President Trump had better get on the phone as a matter of urgency.

My bewilderment is that these Californians ended up in Europe spending 200 Euros a night at the Meridien Visconti, I can't imagine any storyline in which that might happen.
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The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by gmc »

Most of the polioce forces in europe are paramilitary i.e. armed and capable of being used as a military force. the Uk is almost unique in having an unarmed civilian police force. Americans speak american english poor dears do get things wrong sometimes. To us a military policeman would be a member of the armed forces (redcaps) there to police the army soldiers and not part of the civilian police force. American police are all paramilitary they just can't contemplate any other way of doing things.
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The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by spot »

The pair of them were in court today. I'm just wondering what they think might get them back to America this century. Other than President Trump, of course.

Would saying they didn't know he was a policeman make things better?

How about having an Instagram account makes stabbing strangers seem normal, a bit like Fortnite or Grand Theft Auto. Like having "Death is guaranteed, life is not" as a personal motto on your homepage. Perhaps that wasn't meant as a threat, perhaps it only sounds like a threat to sane people.

200 euros a night, that hotel. What sort of world lets unemployable tossers like those two stay in a hotel like that. I have never in my life spent even a single night in a 200 euro hotel.

Their best shot at a short sentence is to blame 2Pac.
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The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by LarsMac »

it strikes me that these punks have already had far more attention than they deserve from the US.

They should simply be abandoned to the Italian Justice System.
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The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by spot »

I'm tempted to keep the thread moving for several months by posting 2Pac rap violence followed by a "2Pac made me do it" whinge at the end of each tirade. Not as extenuation, you understand, but definitely as a witness against rap.

It can't help that the officer who died may well have been the most sainted member of the Italian constabulary and just one week back from his honeymoon. Neither of the culprits appears worth a fraction of their victim in human terms. Yet if they're sat back feeling hard done by it wouldn't surprise me at all.
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The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by LarsMac »

spot;1524089 wrote: I'm tempted to keep the thread moving for several months by posting 2Pac rap violence followed by a "2Pac made me do it" whinge at the end of each tirade. Not as extenuation, you understand, but definitely as a witness against rap.

It can't help that the officer who died may well have been the most sainted member of the Italian constabulary and just one week back from his honeymoon. Neither of the culprits appears worth a fraction of their victim in human terms. Yet if they're sat back feeling hard done by it wouldn't surprise me at all.


Seems pointless to feed the human notion that they can always blame someone else for their sad behavior.
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Post by spot »

It turns out at least one of them didn't commit any crime at all. Fabrizio Natale issued a statement to the media after visiting his son to the effect that "We are very upset by the predicament he's in, but we are all fully convinced of his innocence". One can only hope Kanye West and other White House influencers are immediately made aware of this fact.

Perhaps a petition announcing that nobody died at all would help too, or the deletion of all the CCTV evidence.
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Post by spot »

Is there a convention in America to call a knife with a 7" blade a 7" knife, or is it just when the papers want to minimise things? For the record the knife, with handle, is 12" and sells for $20 in Walmart as a replica WW2 US Marine weapon. Why it's allowed in aircraft luggage I'm not sure.
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Post by LarsMac »

spot;1524187 wrote: Is there a convention in America to call a knife with a 7" blade a 7" knife, or is it just when the papers want to minimise things? For the record the knife, with handle, is 12" and sells for $20 in Walmart as a replica WW2 US Marine weapon. Why it's allowed in aircraft luggage I'm not sure.


Usually a knife is identified by it's blade length.

So a "seven-inch knife" would generally be a knife with a seven inch long blade.

And it probably is not prohibited in checked luggage, but it would definitely be rejected in Carry-on.

I expect that most states in the EU probably have some laws/statues, or guidance as to when and where one might be prohibited from carrying such a knife on their person.

My son-in-law once had such a knife taken away from him when he entered the local Airport with one strapped to his belt.

Airport security generally discourages such things.
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If you carry it anywhere in a British city you face a maximum five year jail term.
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The wealthy businessman Elder has assembled a war cabinet of US and Italian lawyers to fight the charges against his son at the luxurious five-star Cavalieri Waldorf Astoria hotel.

With commanding views over Rome, a Michelin-star restaurant and priceless Renaissance art-work hanging in the lobby, the resort as one of Italy’s finest, where suites cost up to $1,500 a night.

https://en.brinkwire.com/us/father-and- ... is-arrest/




There appears to be a clash of cultures on the horizon.
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Post by spot »

The autopsy is now with the magistrate but is not yet public. The key question the autopsy will address is the truth of Mr Elder's assertion that the chap he was sticking his knife into eleven times was fighting upright, or whether Mr Elder was in fact repeatedly stabbing a body on the ground.
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Post by spot »

Here's the next trickle of news.

Adnkronos also reports that Natale's palm and fingerprints were found on a hotel room ceiling panel, where investigators recovered the knife used to kill Cerciello Rega.

https://abc7news.com/cellphone-photos-l ... r/5538064/




This is the one who knew nothing about a knife. Remember "We are deeply upset by his predicament, while at the same time fully convinced of his innocence. Gabriel never imagined there would be a confrontation and did not know his friend was armed. He only became aware of what actually happened after his arrest."?

The article also notes regarding the "my son was an innocent bystander" fellow's phone



One photograph shows Natale indoors, tongue out, holding a handgun with a blue glove. Another shows someone wearing a hood and a similar glove, holding what appears to be the same weapon outdoors.

Adnkronos also reports that the carabinieri found a large quantity of photos with drugs and cash on Natale's cellphone: marijuana in jars, plants, tablets with descriptions, cocaine in pieces or crack.




And so to today's announcement:

The lawyers of one of two Bay Area teenagers being held in the slaying of an Italian police officer have dropped a request for their client to be released.

Lawyers for Gabriel Natale-Hjorth of Mill Valley, who’s in custody for his alleged role in the fatal stabbing of Italian police officer Mario Cerciello Rega, said Monday they need time to study new evidence that emerged recently.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/ ... r-killing/




I bet they do, too.
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The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by magentaflame »

wow! looks like we have stricter laws here.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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magentaflame;1525280 wrote: wow! looks like we have stricter laws here.


I have as much sympathy for their predicament as I would for a pair of scorpions surrounded by meerkats with no cover in sight.

I have no idea why the elder Elder doesn't just walk away and disown his killer offspring, surely he has more like that back home. One can only hope the legal fees are causing him distress. Is there no expression in America warning those in thrall to lawyers never to throw good money after bad?
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Post by spot »

We can now stop wondering whether these two uncontrolled hooligans knew the police officers were police before the knife killing happened. It might not be admissable but it's incontestably true.

The new information comes from an Aug. 2 prison visit between Elder, his father Ethan, and their American lawyer Craig Peterson that police had surveilled. During the conversation, Elder is reported to have told his father that indeed, he did know Rega was a cop. Elder reportedly made the same admission in a phone call home in the hours after the incident occurred. “I made a mistake,” he reportedly said. “I hit a cop.”

The widely-reported transcript, which The Daily Beast also obtained from an investigative source, says Elder was explaining what happened to his dad and attorney. “When they quickly flashed their cards or whatever,” Elder said before being interrupted by his lawyer, Peterson, who the transcript says then whispered to his client, “Stay calm, stick to your statement, review it point by point, remember it. Your statement shouldn’t worry us during the interrogation,” he reportedly said before adding. “You did not see anything.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/finnegan- ... ref=scroll




And that lawyer should be disbarred for collusion.
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Post by spot »

That trial is now in progress.

I've decided I have a biased view, which distresses me. I dislike bias.

The bias consists of disliking prat knives like those. If you have to have a warrior authorized by law and bred over generations to actually kill enemy combatants during battle then such a knife has its place, though I'm convinced an international treaty could easily make killing enemy combatants illegal and that such a treaty ought to happen.

In the hands of teenage prats though, definitely I have a bias.

When a prat teenager then takes the prat knife abroad on holiday, I'm quite happy for the prat teenager to be inconvenienced at every turn.

To then go out inviting every drug pusher in a foreign capital city to take his money and hand him aspirin in exchange, the prat teenager is simply looking for trouble.

Where my bias finally takes over is when the prat teenager then decides to take on the criminal element of the foreign capital, knowing nothing about local conventions or procedures, and sticks his prat knife repeatedly into a living person.

I'm not sure where the concept of self-defence fits into this story at all. The fact that the dead man was a police officer is completely irrelevant.

As for avoiding the whole process, legalize the drugs for sale in corner tobacconists. It's far less harmful than providing the criminal community with a market.
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Post by LarsMac »

spot;1531024 wrote: That trial is now in progress.

I've decided I have a biased view, which distresses me. I dislike bias.

The bias consists of disliking prat knives like those. If you have to have a warrior authorized by law and bred over generations to actually kill enemy combatants during battle then such a knife has its place, though I'm convinced an international treaty could easily make killing enemy combatants illegal and that such a treaty ought to happen.

In the hands of teenage prats though, definitely I have a bias.

When a prat teenager then takes the prat knife abroad on holiday, I'm quite happy for the prat teenager to be inconvenienced at every turn.

To then go out inviting every drug pusher in a foreign capital city to take his money and hand him aspirin in exchange, the prat teenager is simply looking for trouble.

Where my bias finally takes over is when the prat teenager then decides to take on the criminal element of the foreign capital, knowing nothing about local conventions or procedures, and sticks his prat knife repeatedly into a living person.

I'm not sure where the concept of self-defence fits into this story at all. The fact that the dead man was a police officer is completely irrelevant.

As for avoiding the whole process, legalize the drugs for sale in corner tobacconists. It's far less harmful than providing the criminal community with a market.


Well, I hope that said Prat is found guilty and gets to spend a very long time enjoying the hospitality of the Italian penal system.
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The trial has been suspended until mid-April due to the Italy-wide virus lockdown. Italian prisons are riot-filled this week with prisoners complaining about being in jail, five so far being dead (of rioting, not of infection).

The two exceptional Americans remain in jail despite having shaved their stubble, sprayed deodorant and had their hair cut to try to look more innocent. Their parents very sensibly stayed in San Francisco.
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by spot »

The trial is back in business, the American lawyers are once again throwing dust at the eyes of the judges.
Finnegan Elder's father, Ethan, told the I-Team's Dan Noyes, "More lies, omissions and mistakes by the prosecution and Carabinieri continue to be exposed during recent hearings. We hope the full picture of what really happened that tragic night is becoming clearer. We are trying to save our son's life."

Finnegan Elder and Gabriel Natale continue to say they did not know the two men were police officers that night, that they thought the officers were thugs coming after them for stealing a backpack, and that they acted in self-defense.

https://abc7news.com/rome-police-stabbi ... e/6264932/
Where I come from, killing someone during the commission of a crime is entirely indefensible regardless of whether they were recognized as police or not. I still think "2Pac made me do it" is their only choice.
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by spot »

What on earth is Fox News? This is biased to the point of deliberate disinformation.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/american- ... hed-police

Just the headline alone - "American student accused of killing Italian cop in drug bust gone wrong claims ..." - it wasn't a "drugs bust", no prat on earth could think it was a drugs bust. There's a police informer staking out a bit of Rome, his life is compromised by these two random Americans stealing his backpack which could expose him to the criminals he's reporting on, two carabinieri go plainclothes to try to save the situation and one of them gets knifed trying to retrieve the backpack. How on earth is that a drugs bust? Call it a drugs purchase gone wrong if you like, but not bust. These people are reporters?
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

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spot wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:43 am What on earth is Fox News? This is biased to the point of deliberate disinformation.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/american- ... hed-police

Just the headline alone - "American student accused of killing Italian cop in drug bust gone wrong claims ..." - it wasn't a "drugs bust", no prat on earth could think it was a drugs bust. There's a police informer staking out a bit of Rome, his life is compromised by these two random Americans stealing his backpack which could expose him to the criminals he's reporting on, two carabinieri go plainclothes to try to save the situation and one of them gets knifed trying to retrieve the backpack. How on earth is that a drugs bust? Call it a drugs purchase gone wrong if you like, but not bust. These people are reporters?
FOX News. The Nadir of journalistic integrity in America.
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

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Here we go - statement in court:
Elder said he had not spoken out before due to “lack of courage”.

“In prison, I’ve had time to reflect,” he added. “I want to say that night was the worst of my life, not because I’m in prison but because I took someone’s life, I took a husband from his wife, I broke a bond between brothers. And I took a son from his mother. I will never be able to forgive myself and I don’t expect the family of Cerciello to forgive me today, that would be difficult, but I hope one day they might be able to.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-in-court
What do I hear? I hear words dictated by a lawyer, that's what.
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

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spot wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:53 am Here we go - statement in court:
Elder said he had not spoken out before due to “lack of courage”.

“In prison, I’ve had time to reflect,” he added. “I want to say that night was the worst of my life, not because I’m in prison but because I took someone’s life, I took a husband from his wife, I broke a bond between brothers. And I took a son from his mother. I will never be able to forgive myself and I don’t expect the family of Cerciello to forgive me today, that would be difficult, but I hope one day they might be able to.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-in-court
What do I hear? I hear words dictated by a lawyer, that's what.
I seem to remember those lines from a movie back in the 60s. Or, something very similar.
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

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The Associated Press expresses the single aspect I find most baffling about the American public reaction to the facts:
The defense has insisted that the Americans did not realize the two Italians were police officers and thought the men were criminal thugs.
Why does anyone think this claim, whether it is true or not, has the slightest bearing on either the guilt of the two killers or severity of the crime? And yet it's being brought up by the defense time after time. If it were being said after a verdict, at a sentencing phase, in mitigation, I would still regard it as irrelevant, but it's being put forward as a defense against a prosecution for murder.

It is, I take it, common ground between the prosecution and the defense that the two defendants were both knowingly engaged in a criminal enterprise, both when they bought what they believed to be narcotics and when they stole the backpack and, during the same sequence of events, when they then went to an arranged meet to exchange it for the actual drugs and money. No system of law is going to allow you to declare that you then killed innocently in self-defense, any question of whether you were in fear of your life at that moment is immaterial. The crime is that someone died while you were criminally engaged. How does knowing or not knowing you were killing a policeman have any relevance?
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

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spot wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:41 am The Associated Press expresses the single aspect I find most baffling about the American public reaction to the facts:
The defense has insisted that the Americans did not realize the two Italians were police officers and thought the men were criminal thugs.
Why does anyone think this claim, whether it is true or not, has the slightest bearing on either the guilt of the two killers or severity of the crime? And yet it's being brought up by the defense time after time. If it were being said after a verdict, at a sentencing phase, in mitigation, I would still regard it as irrelevant, but it's being put forward as a defense against a prosecution for murder.

It is, I take it, common ground between the prosecution and the defense that the two defendants were both knowingly engaged in a criminal enterprise, both when they bought what they believed to be narcotics and when they stole the backpack and, during the same sequence of events, when they then went to an arranged meet to exchange it for the actual drugs and money. No system of law is going to allow you to declare that you then killed innocently in self-defense, any question of whether you were in fear of your life at that moment is immaterial. The crime is that someone died while you were criminally engaged. How does knowing or not knowing you were killing a policeman have any relevance?
True. Casing the death of another person during the commission of a crime is a homicide. At least in the US, and Canada, I know this to be true.
I presume Italy has some similar wording in the law books.
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Re: The Tamalpais High puzzle

Post by spot »

The trial started a year ago, it's still running. The lawyers must be bleeding the families like stuck pigs but who knows, it may be legal in America to insure against case costs for sticking a knife into a policeman while trying to buy drugs on the street. Perhaps you can buy it as an add-on while paying for the flight.

https://nypost.com/2021/02/04/californi ... ow-badges/
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