Intelligent design and creationism

gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not 'a magician with a magic wand' | The Independent

The theories of evolution and the Big Bang are real and God is not “a magician with a magic wand”, Pope Francis has declared.

Speaking at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pope made comments which experts said put an end to the “pseudo theories” of creationism and intelligent design that some argue were encouraged by his predecessor, Benedict XVI.




That should get the bible belt talking those who can think for themselves probably won't notice any difference.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Clodhopper »

Seems a really good Pope, this one. Wonder what his life expectancy is...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1508526 wrote: Seems a really good Pope, this one. Wonder what his life expectancy is...


Biting tongue.
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 16113
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1508495 wrote: Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not 'a magician with a magic wand' | The Independent



That should get the bible belt talking those who can think for themselves probably won't notice any difference.


Do they care what those damn'd papists think?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 41336
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by spot »

Evolution is an acceptable description of how life developed in the past, I suspect intelligent design will become prominent in how life develops in the future. I mistrust intelligent design, life will no longer be a salad dressing, it will become a melting pot. I do not want my descendants to incorporate any more strands of fish DNA than their human ancestors gave them. Or, from their maternal line, insect.

Creationism is and always has been bogus claptrap, since it can only work in the presence of an all-powerful deity of which the Universe contains exactly zero.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Mark Aspam
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mark Aspam »

There is a much, MUCH longer thread on this subject, several years old but quite interesting reading.

Maybe one of the moderators can give the location.

Added later: Found it. This forum, page 22, bottom thread.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

spot;1508561 wrote: Evolution is an acceptable description of how life developed in the past, I suspect intelligent design will become prominent in how life develops in the future. I mistrust intelligent design, life will no longer be a salad dressing, it will become a melting pot. I do not want my descendants to incorporate any more strands of fish DNA than their human ancestors gave them. Or, from their maternal line, insect.

Creationism is and always has been bogus claptrap, since it can only work in the presence of an all-powerful deity of which the Universe contains exactly zero.


Sadly an awful lot of people disagree with you and the more extreme would prevent you even hinting there was no such thing.
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

I don't think God is magic, but I do think it is easy to perceive him as being " Magical." If he did all this that we can see, it truly would have been magical if we could have watched him doing it. Not only that, how God can some how turn an unbelieving human mind, into a believing mind, is truly magical. I read the things an unbeliever says and thinks, I compare that to how I think and understand things ; I see the vast difference , and it truly amazes me ; how different we all are; how we think and view things.

The difference in human consciousness is amazing, and for a being , like God, to be able to appeal directly to the human consciousness, and change it totally , is indeed magical, he can appeal directly to the cerebral cortex. I mean I think its amazing, because I know and realize how stubborn and hardheaded I am ; God must have had to appeal directly to my frontal cortex , the way he has gotten into me. I know how I can be in my thinking ; very, very stubborn.

No , God is not a magician , he's just magical. Majestic and amazing! We know him not.
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6491
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1508695 wrote: No , God is not a magician , he's just magical. Majestic and amazing! We know him not.
You never said a truer word. You cannot know something that doesn't exist.
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1508752 wrote: You never said a truer word. You cannot know something that doesn't exist.




Its hard to know God. In Job 36:26, "God is Great, we know him not!" A stunning scripture that many believers in God would no doubt struggle with admitting what it states. Just as many unbelievers struggle with Intelligent design and creationism. I understand that ; I understand when we don't understand! I think we need a big bang in the head, much less in space. God is not theory, but he has become theory by the own creatures he has created. Now the created don't know the creator. In other words , we have lost ourselves ; we don't know where we came from. We think its intelligent to believe that humanity crawled out from under a rock. That all this wonder created and designed itself; we think that thinking like that is intelligent.

Now its smart to deny our true origin. But I understand that. I view that blindness as a direct result of God himself! It is God that confounds his own existence ; this whole thing is God's responsibility , and THAT is why none of us are doomed. If it were our fault , we simply would do foolish things anyway. In Romans 11:32, " For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, so that he can have MERCY on us All!" " For God"

" For God". You see that, " For God" , this means this is something God has done! " For God", ( meaning God did this, its his responsibility), Has shut us all up in unbelief! We ALL have been affected, both believer and unbeliever are included. This means even our belief is not worth a nickel! Even our belief in God is confused and seriously contaminated. We don't know God, we thus cannot really understand creation and design; and its not a fault or a defect to Not believe in God; unbelief is not the fault of any human.

Why would God condemn any human that he has blinded? That makes absolutely no sense whatever! It is God who has made the appeal to those who cannot get to believing he exist ; and even this is a stunning truth that many believers , if not all of them, would never think this true!

So the most intelligent design that God has created, was a blindness to us ; a confusion in us, a doubt in us, that actually helps to seal up all of our future with God. Notice Ecclesiastes 7:13, " Consider the " Work" of God; for who can make straight what he has bent!" It was God's " Work" to bend us all! Or bring us into existence , without really knowing why and how we exist. And some how through all this designed confusion, we will benefit from it for all of eternity ; which is an intelligence that I just cannot understand!
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6491
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by FourPart »

Quoting ancient passages from a primitive culture who would happily believe in any fairy tale they were told as truth in no way supports anything. They are simply reiterating everyone else. It's like trying to argue in favour of Tory policy at a Labour conference, or vice versa. It's not going to happen. All that will happen is like you get at PMQs when a Tory gets up to ask a question - "Does my honourable friend agree with me about how wonderful we are"? It's a non question. It doesn't challenge anything, and of course, the answer is never going to be a denial. You see what you want to see. You hear what you want to hear. You deny all facts to the contrary. Politics & Religion have a great deal in common in that respect.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

I see mickiel is still pretending he has read the bible.
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1508969 wrote: I see mickiel is still pretending he has read the bible.


Oh I have read a lot of it , but I understand very little about it. But I will say that the design of our inter planetary regions , human and animal life , the cosmic universe , and cats are indeed a sure sign of intelligence outside of humanity. We did NOT design any of that , and I reject the nonsense notion that it designed itself.

It should be illegal to teach elementary students that all this just popped up out from nothing , or developed itself after a big bang boomed at some self appointed time in time.
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6491
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by FourPart »

So, you would be opposed to teaching something being taught that according to ever increasing physical evidence is that best possible solution to fit the known facts but would be in favour of teaching that all this came from an invidible Sky Daddy, who the only evidence for comes from a story book passed down through millenia by word of mouth, interpretations, embellishments, translations & just plain fiction? You would be opposed to teaching that eons of evolution developed the base elements into life as we know it today in favour of those same elements (dust) being made into an adult male in a moment? You would be opposed to teaching the theory of the Big Bang, when it has been proven that the Universe is expanding from the presumed point of origin of this Big Bang in favour of everything coming from nothing on the word of this invisible Sky Daddy (who, obviously, came from nothing)? Yeah - makes a lot of sense that does.
User avatar
YZGI
Posts: 11527
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:24 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by YZGI »

Mickiel;1509028 wrote: Oh I have read a lot of it , but I understand very little about it. But I will say that the design of our inter planetary regions , human and animal life , the cosmic universe , and cats are indeed a sure sign of intelligence outside of humanity. We did NOT design any of that , and I reject the nonsense notion that it designed itself.

It should be illegal to teach elementary students that all this just popped up out from nothing , or developed itself after a big bang boomed at some self appointed time in time.


CATS!! CATS!! Surely you jest. Cats have to be the work of the devil himself..
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1509035 wrote: So, you would be opposed to teaching something being taught that according to ever increasing physical evidence is that best possible solution to fit the known facts but would be in favour of teaching that all this came from an invidible Sky Daddy, who the only evidence for comes from a story book passed down through millenia by word of mouth, interpretations, embellishments, translations & just plain fiction? You would be opposed to teaching that eons of evolution developed the base elements into life as we know it today in favour of those same elements (dust) being made into an adult male in a moment? You would be opposed to teaching the theory of the Big Bang, when it has been proven that the Universe is expanding from the presumed point of origin of this Big Bang in favour of everything coming from nothing on the word of this invisible Sky Daddy (who, obviously, came from nothing)? Yeah - makes a lot of sense that does.


If I may use simple terminology; you are suggesting , but only to a very larger imagined extent , that given time a piece of nothing could develop into something far more complex than a fully manufactured 2017 GMC Envoy Station Wagon, ( if I may use my vehicle of choice and style), you know, eons of self creating metals , plastic , rubber , steel, and glass ; just incredibly design itself and its complex patterns, give itself wheels and windows and seats; wire itself and give itself rack and pinion, steering, a brake system, ignition, a battery, front and rear end design; an oil sending unit, hydraulic cylinder internal combustion engine; goodness - I could make a page long list of unlisted parts that I will spare you of ; but you suggest something like this has created life;

man, please!
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509046 wrote: If I may use simple terminology; you are suggesting , but only to a very larger imagined extent , that given time a piece of nothing could develop into something far more complex than a fully manufactured 2017 GMC Envoy Station Wagon, ( if I may use my vehicle of choice and style), you know, eons of self creating metals , plastic , rubber , steel, and glass ; just incredibly design itself and its complex patterns, give itself wheels and windows and seats; wire itself and give itself rack and pinion, steering, a brake system, ignition, a battery, front and rear end design; an oil sending unit, hydraulic cylinder internal combustion engine; goodness - I could make a page long list of unlisted parts that I will spare you of ; but you suggest something like this has created life;

man, please!


Science offers an explanation of the universe based on what can be examined and proved or disproved there is no scientist claiming to have an explanation as to how or why the universe started, the big bang theory is an explanation based on what we know. But no one can answer the question as to what started it all off you would be very hard pushed to find a scientist tp say they do all they can pint to is a theory that stands up to close examination based on what we know, if we learn more that their may change.

The religious don't know either but invent an explanation based on the theory that there must be a super being that caused it all and try to insist that they and only they have the right answer and everyone else should not disagree or question. If a god or gods created the universe then provide the proof. A god that refuses to reveal himself ( moves in mysterious ways and all the other sops that the religious come up with) is no different from a god that does not actually exist.

Go away read the bible so you can hold your own in discussion (this is a discussion site after all) of the bible, you should be embarassed that atheists have greater knpwledge that you and if you are going to be disparaging about science at least take the time to find out what the big bang theory actually is and if you can disprove it then Ilook forward tom seeing you get the niobel price for science
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509062 wrote: Science offers an explanation of the universe based on what can be examined and proved or disproved there is no scientist claiming to have an explanation as to how or why the universe started, the big bang theory is an explanation based on what we know. But no one can answer the question as to what started it all off you would be very hard pushed to find a scientist tp say they do all they can pint to is a theory that stands up to close examination based on what we know, if we learn more that their may change.

The religious don't know either but invent an explanation based on the theory that there must be a super being that caused it all and try to insist that they and only they have the right answer and everyone else should not disagree or question. If a god or gods created the universe then provide the proof. A god that refuses to reveal himself ( moves in mysterious ways and all the other sops that the religious come up with) is no different from a god that does not actually exist.

Go away read the bible so you can hold your own in discussion (this is a discussion site after all) of the bible, you should be embarassed that atheists have greater knpwledge that you and if you are going to be disparaging about science at least take the time to find out what the big bang theory actually is and if you can disprove it then Ilook forward tom seeing you get the niobel price for science




Here's a theory for you that I have; eternal life for humans is not a sales gimmick from God; its a right for humans that comes from their Father. Its real, its unaffected by anything , and its a byproduct of the Great love of this Great being, which we just are fortunate enough to be in his favor. Its a done deal kind of thing. Something which nothing can stop.

I have seen examples of how life can stop, how my own life can be given a stopwatch and the doctors say that I will not go beyond 6 months. I have now personally seen how God can take you beyond what limits men put on you. Even take your understanding beyond that of men , and help you peer into the blind spots , that put together the puzzles in life ; that helps you see what God has intended not to be seen. then he places you on the verge of knowing;

Knowing;

Knowing what?
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509071 wrote: Here's a theory for you that I have; eternal life for humans is not a sales gimmick from God; its a right for humans that comes from their Father. Its real, its unaffected by anything , and its a byproduct of the Great love of this Great being, which we just are fortunate enough to be in his favor. Its a done deal kind of thing. Something which nothing can stop.

I have seen examples of how life can stop, how my own life can be given a stopwatch and the doctors say that I will not go beyond 6 months. I have now personally seen how God can take you beyond what limits men put on you. Even take your understanding beyond that of men , and help you peer into the blind spots , that put together the puzzles in life ; that helps you see what God has intended not to be seen. then he places you on the verge of knowing;

Knowing;

Knowing what?


If it's real then you should be able to provide some evidence of that existence but you cannot.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1509071 wrote: Here's a theory for you that I have; eternal life for humans is not a sales gimmick from God; its a right for humans that comes from their Father. Its real, its unaffected by anything , and its a byproduct of the Great love of this Great being, which we just are fortunate enough to be in his favor. Its a done deal kind of thing. Something which nothing can stop.Whatever brand of morphine one uses to dull pain.

Mickiel;1509071 wrote: I have seen examples of how life can stop, how my own life can be given a stopwatch and the doctors say that I will not go beyond 6 months. I have now personally seen how God can take you beyond what limits men put on you. Even take your understanding beyond that of men An incorrect medical diagnosis/prognosis is no more proof of any God than a faulty weather prediction is.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

I have seen examples of how life can stop, how my own life can be given a stopwatch and the doctors say that I will not go beyond 6 months. I have now personally seen how God can take you beyond what limits men put on you. Even take your understanding beyond that of men , and help you peer into the blind spots , that put together the puzzles in life ; that helps you see what God has intended not to be seen. then he places you on the verge of knowing;




By what kind of perverted thinking are you grateful to god for being allowed to live longer than the doctors said you might and see it as proof of his mercy when he must have given the disease to you in the first place. It's like being grateful to a torturer for loosening the rack a bit.
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509099 wrote: By what kind of perverted thinking are you grateful to god for being allowed to live longer than the doctors said you might and see it as proof of his mercy when he must have given the disease to you in the first place. It's like being grateful to a torturer for loosening the rack a bit.




Well I'll just use your perverted label of my thinking; yes I am grateful for God loosening the rack a bit for me. And I don't care that you do not share in my gratefulness.
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509099 wrote: By what kind of perverted thinking are you grateful to god for being allowed to live longer than the doctors said you might and see it as proof of his mercy when he must have given the disease to you in the first place. It's like being grateful to a torturer for loosening the rack a bit.




I could have responded like this;

if a god being gave me temporary life with a disease for about 70 years , then allowed me to die, and then he gave me eternal life later to never have any disease of any kind again forever, I'll take it. It still would be the greatest deal ever given to me. I'll take the 70 years of disease prison any day. And I pity the person looking at this deal, if they some how judged it as being a perverted deal, because I know their view of this must be jacked up if they would not leap on the same deal.

Hey , he can loosen the rack, loosen my brains, shrink my penis; I can live with all that for the ultimate freedom God is giving.
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6491
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by FourPart »

A belief in an afterlife is the result of an indoctrinated fear of the inevitable end to life. This is what Religion is, and always has been. A means to control people by inventing superstitions of the Bogeyman - musch like, "If you're not good Sant will put you on his Naughty list & you won't get any presents". It's a line we have heard so often. Consider how it works. A fictional character, albeit based on a genuine historical philanthropist is suddenly deemed to be compiling a list of any slightest misdeed & to later hold this in judgement of a child. Take a fiction & modify it into a threat in order to control the masses. That's Religion for you.
User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by tude dog »

FourPart;1509116 wrote: A belief in an afterlife is the result of an indoctrinated fear of the inevitable end to life. This is what Religion is, and always has been. A means to control people by inventing superstitions of the Bogeyman - musch like, "If you're not good Sant will put you on his Naughty list & you won't get any presents". It's a line we have heard so often. Consider how it works. A fictional character, albeit based on a genuine historical philanthropist is suddenly deemed to be compiling a list of any slightest misdeed & to later hold this in judgement of a child. Take a fiction & modify it into a threat in order to control the masses. That's Religion for you.


Wish I could convince myself to be an atheist where there is no right or wrong. All the missed opportunities for personal profit and pleasure.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1509117 wrote: Wish I could convince myself to be an atheistIt requires more than wishful thinking. It requires work to educate oneself and then more work to actually debate within oneself new facts vs old myths. Then, additional work is required to separate the two once distinguished. It is not a chore taken lightly, nor should it be taken up by anyone who tends to be lazy. tude dog;1509117 wrote: where there is no right or wrong.Lastly, it requires determination and fortitude to decide right and wrong for oneself. Morality is not god-given, it has never been. We know this because we now know that there is no God. We've examined and debated this issue extensively and have found it, not just wanting, but to be an absurd way of thinking in the 21st century mostly exclusive to those who wish to remain ignorant. Morality is a human construct produced by experiencing life as it has unfolded over time

tude dog;1509117 wrote: All the missed opportunities for personal profit and pleasure.On the other hand, maybe it's best to remain ignorant.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

He neat topic. I do believe in the reality of God. God is a experiential reality. God is not a being and our ancestors personified the idea of God as it was their only way of doing it. God is a spirit. He/she/itIs not a person. No arms or legs no magice but I believe in the experiencial reality of God and really couldn't care less what others thin. Talk about educated. I've spent some 11 years at university education. Science is simply not able to deal with that. Generally religion was not created to control i. I was created to supply a possible certainnty in a world where certainty is not possible.. And yes there are many scientists who deny a God existence but there are also scientits who accept the reality of God...

Any way " Job" was an attempt to explain evil in the world. Not the best job but a= good poetry. Evolution is the best explanation we have to date and I accept that.. There is mre to life than empericism and science simply cannot handle that.. Some people's rfeligion is a God belief and some folk's religion is science.

There really is no intelligence in intelligent design and creationism.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509113 wrote: I could have responded like this;

if a god being gave me temporary life with a disease for about 70 years , then allowed me to die, and then he gave me eternal life later to never have any disease of any kind again forever, I'll take it. It still would be the greatest deal ever given to me. I'll take the 70 years of disease prison any day. And I pity the person looking at this deal, if they some how judged it as being a perverted deal, because I know their view of this must be jacked up if they would not leap on the same deal.

Hey , he can loosen the rack, loosen my brains, shrink my penis; I can live with all that for the ultimate freedom God is giving.


If you want to believe in a god being and it gives you comfort good luck to you for myself I see no evidence whatsoever that there is one.

posted by tude dog

Wish I could convince myself to be an atheist where there is no right or wrong. All the missed opportunities for personal profit and pleasure.




Why do you think morality only comes from a belief in god? Atheists take responsibility for their actions the religious have a good excuse handy - god wished it.

Seems to me the other way around as a christian you can commit any sin you like, kill as many people as you like and then on your deathbed ask god to to forgive your sins and go to heaven. Come to that isis seem to have little trouble with their conscience carrying out god's work.

You don't need to convince yourself to be an atheist it's not an alternative religion you can convert to. Put simply do you believe god exists. answer Yes and you are religious and you can then choose your particular brand. Answer no and you are an atheist free to make your own moral decisions and stop living in fear of eternal damnation and make the best of the life you lead.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

It seems to me that morality in many ways is a cultural issue. Folks in Papua New Guine had no qualslms about eat in their enemies. The problem was that some came down with "Croyts-feld Jacobs disease. To them it was not a morality issue. Margaet Mede studied a grooup in the south pacific where the children twere tolk it was ok to play sexual games including intercourse. Once again a local cultural thing. Jesus, if one so believes, did not bring a system of morals but showed us a new way of living for everyones benefit. Some religions seem to place a great deal of emphasis on sex. Ithink it is probably a tribal thing. It is ok to have kids just make sure they are from our tribe. In the time of Jwesus of Nazareth poligamy was quite in order and had no moral implications whatsoever. Daved had both many wives and many concubines. He was a busy man. It's a wonder he had time for affairs of state. Actually that was Solomon.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Ted;1509143 wrote: He neat topic. I do believe in the reality of God. God is a experiential reality.IOW, the result of cult brainwashing. Ted;1509143 wrote: God is not True! Ted;1509143 wrote: a being and our ancestors personified the idea of God as it was their only way of doing it.Doing what? Ted;1509143 wrote: God is a spirit.There's no such thing Ted;1509143 wrote: He/she/itIs not a person. No arms or legs no magice but I believe in the experiencial reality of GodSo, in the face of all reality you prefer to believe in a storybook character because you were told that your emotions are your senses connecting to an imaginary person.Ted;1509143 wrote: and really couldn't care less what others thin.Obviously! Ted;1509143 wrote: Talk about educated. I've spent some 11 years at university education. Doing what? You certainly weren't learning anything that has to do with reality or communication skills. Ted;1509143 wrote: Science is simply not able to deal with that.Deal with what? A make-believe person known as some sort of spiritual being that created life just so "he/she/it" can play ridiculous games with its creation? Ted;1509143 wrote: Generally religion was not created to control i.I have no idea what this means. Ted;1509143 wrote: And yes there are many scientists who deny a God existence but there are also scientits who accept the reality of God...There is no "reality of God".

Ted;1509143 wrote: good poetry. There is mre to life than empericism and science simply cannot handle that..Are you attempting to say that there is another realm operating in the background of life that only special people and dead people get to see? Seriously? Ted;1509143 wrote: Some people's rfeligion is a God belief and some folk's religion is science.This is simply an absurd statement and exposes your complete lack of any understanding of what science is.

Let's try this; If I listen to music a lot or read lots of books, I may be doing so because I enjoy it, or perhaps I'm a musician or writer and am examining the work of my peers as a discipline. IT DOES NOT MEAN that either music or reading is a religion I practice. Science might be an interest, or a hobby, or a job, or a discipline, but it is not a religion and the people who ascribe to the findings of the scientific method are not followers of science, they are people who are, for reasons of their own, interested in scientific findings.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

Ahso

You are definitely entitled to your opinion as I am entitlede to mine.. Am I saying there ios another realm? No I'm saying there is another view of reality. which science is simply incapable of un derfstanding. That being said I do not try to force my beliefs on others but many atheists sounds like soap box preachers as if the and they alone have the sole handle on the trruth. which is absurd. l. After many years of higher education I have come to understand just how ignorant humans are and how very little we really know.Some atheists seem to have this evangelical ben in their desired to preach their truth. I believe that science has much to offer and I also see it as becoming a religion. and that is ok with me as well. I do not listen to soap box preachers and nore do I listen to evangelical atheists. We each must follow our own path. I do not interfere with others and will be damned if I'll let them interfere with mine. You can call me what you like and even laugh. I could'n are less. I try to speak when asked about what I know. I have many science books in my libraryt as well as theological books. Cheers.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

I firmly believe in the messages in Micah 6:8 and in a parable of Jesus in Matt. 25. I see the call for justice and compoassion, and assistance for those in need as valuabkle aims and goals. If others don't that is their problem and not mine.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Ted;1509151 wrote: Ahso

You are definitely entitled to your opinion as I am entitlede to mine..This has nothing to do with opinion, we're discussing reality. You insist on describing reality from a storybook perspective and insist that that's an opinion of a reality. It's not, it's delusion. Ted;1509151 wrote: Am I saying there ios another realm? No I'm saying there is another view of reality. look at an apple. What you see is an apple, nothing else, that's reality. What you claim is that the apple has qualities that have not only not been observed but have been examined thoroughly already and have been shown to be incorrect, yet you insist that that is only an opinion and not fact. Ted;1509151 wrote: which science is simply incapable of un derfstanding.Here you go again insisting that the examination of the apple is some sort of philosophical deliberation as opposed to actual trial and error observation that yields factual data.. Ted;1509151 wrote: That being said I do not try to force my beliefs on othersPerhaps not but you pontificate them citing books you've read and your so-called education. The problem is your pontifications are simply silly, but you're so brainwashed you can't see it.Ted;1509151 wrote: but many atheists sounds like soap box preachers as if the and they alone have the sole handle on the trruth.As opposed to what you assert, that's not difficult to do, but again, you're so awash in lies you can't understand it. Ted;1509151 wrote: which is absurd.Ah, so it's no longer a matter of opinion? Ted;1509151 wrote: l. After many years of higher education I have come to understand just how ignorant humans are and how very little we really know.Well, you couldn't know such a thing unless you thought you knew all and stood in judgment of all that is ignorance. Ted;1509151 wrote: Some atheists seem to have this evangelical ben in their desired to preach their truth.No, just stand in contrast to people who pontificate religious bs. Ted;1509151 wrote: I believe that science has much to offerOh please, quit with the pretense. Ted;1509151 wrote: and I also see it as becoming a religion.Then you'll continue to sound like a fool on the subject. Ted;1509151 wrote: and that is ok with me as well.Obviously! Ted;1509151 wrote: I do not listen to soap box preachers and more do I listen to evangelical atheists.So what happened to you? Did someone tie you to a chair for years and force you to listen? It looks to me like you've embraced your sophistry at some point. Ted;1509151 wrote: We each must follow our own path.This is just silly. We both live in the same world with the same realities. We abide under the same sky and are subject to the same conditions and environment. Quit pretending otherwise and get in the game. Ted;1509151 wrote: I do not interfere with others and will be damned if I'll let them interfere with mine. You can call me what you like and even laugh. I could'n are less.That's right, get indignant, that's a ploy of cult members. But no apology crack fix for you coming from me. Ted;1509151 wrote: I try to speak when asked about what I know. I have many science books in my libraryt as well as theological books. Cheers.Try reading those science books, though after reading your sophistry I reckon they might not be science books at all. BTW, you're posting on an internet discussion forum where you might not only get challenged but be shown that your "opinions" might be incorrect.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

Its an excellent title in my view; " Intelligent design and creationism"; the three terms just seem to go together, I mean they fit in the sentence because they are meant for each other. When I see the title it excites me! But then I am disheartened by the way the thread has bred negative views of these positive terms. Just throw waste on such a dynamic subject.

Hey, even if I was an Atheist, I would still believe that intelligence breeds intelligence, even if it gave birth to itself; one kind breeds its kind. And I would still believe that life breeds life. There is no doubt that intelligence is behind life, and design is behind creationism; There is " Deliberate intent" in our reality. All this was deliberately done! My mind is not the result of random theory , human consciousness and intelligence is not the result of things that were " Unintentional"; this is not a lucky event in some unintended life that sparked into existence and became so powerful, that it created all this from its power, but yet its power does not have an intelligence of its own? Or a personality of its own?

Please man; will you think with me?
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1509162 wrote: Its an excellent title in my view; " Intelligent design and creationism"; the three terms just seem to go together, I mean they fit in the sentence because they are meant for each other. When I see the title it excites me! But then I am disheartened by the way the thread has bred negative views of these positive terms. Just throw waste on such a dynamic subject.

Hey, even if I was an Atheist, I would still believe that intelligence breeds intelligence, even if it gave birth to itself; one kind breeds its kind. And I would still believe that life breeds life. There is no doubt that intelligence is behind life, and design is behind creationism; There is " Deliberate intent" in our reality. All this was deliberately done! My mind is not the result of random theory , human consciousness and intelligence is not the result of things that were " Unintentional"; this is not a lucky event in some unintended life that sparked into existence and became so powerful, that it created all this from its power, but yet its power does not have an intelligence of its own? Or a personality of its own?

Please man; will you think with me?Reading what you've posted indicates you have no idea what it is you're talking about.

Perhaps if we start here: Define intelligence in this context (though I can't be sure the question can qualify as a relevant or valid one).
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

Seems like Ahso is in a bitchy mood today and perhaps every day. His Evangelical fervor is showing through quite well.. One needs to undertstand the term "spirit". "you havew no idea what you are talking about" Now that is tolerance?
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Ted;1509170 wrote: Seems like Ahso is in a bitchy mood today and perhaps every day. His Evangelical fervor is showing through quite well.. One needs to undertstand the term "spirit". "you havew no idea what you are talking about" Now that is tolerance?Another ploy of brainwashed cult members of not addressing the subject and placing the emphasis on the poster.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

Oh.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

Ahso And just where is your tolerance.?
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Ted;1509187 wrote: Ahso And just where is your tolerance.?I have no tolerance for willful stupidity, I never said I did.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1509165 wrote: Reading what you've posted indicates you have no idea what it is you're talking about.

Perhaps if we start here: Define intelligence in this context (though I can't be sure the question can qualify as a relevant or valid one).


Humanity has the ability to acquire and apply knowledge.; and in my view, that is what intelligence is ; " The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge." We are intelligent incorporeal beings, we have a " Spirit in us", united with our body, we call that spirit " Consciousness." That spirit was infused by God, nature cannot create it, and it is the governor of our behavior.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1509221 wrote: Humanity has the ability to acquire and apply knowledge.; and in my view, that is what intelligence is ; " The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge." We are intelligent incorporeal beings, we have a " Spirit in us", united with our body, we call that spirit " Consciousness." That spirit was infused by God, nature cannot create it, and it is the governor of our behavior.What you're erroneously calling "Spirit" is actually called cognition. And what you're attributing to your God is the evolution of the brain.

All species have intelligence as you define it as acquiring and applying knowledge to some degree. For example, a squirrel becomes aware of birdseed that my neighbor puts out and devises ways to get to it, thus applying knowledge. Check out this example.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ted »

Wisdom is good if it goes along with knowledge.
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1509226 wrote: What you're erroneously calling "Spirit" is actually called cognition. And what you're attributing to your God is the evolution of the brain.

All species have intelligence as you define it as acquiring and applying knowledge to some degree. For example, a squirrel becomes aware of birdseed that my neighbor puts out and devises ways to get to it, thus applying knowledge. Check out this example.


In my view, consciousness is a spirit in humans; and consciousness has no location in the human body. Most think its in the brain, because we peer outwardly with our eyes, and we think consciousness is behind our eyes , some where inside of our heads. But there is absolutely nothing inside of our heads , except bone and tissue! There is no " Consciousness organ inside of the human head." People who think that are simply wrong. Consciousness is just " In" the human, like a spirit; like a ghost! And there is no scientific evidence that proves other wise.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1509232 wrote: In my view, consciousness is a spirit in humans; and consciousness has no location in the human body. Most think its in the brain, because we peer outwardly with our eyes, and we think consciousness is behind our eyes , some where inside of our heads. But there is absolutely nothing inside of our heads , except bone and tissue! There is no " Consciousness organ inside of the human head." People who think that are simply wrong. Consciousness is just " In" the human, like a spirit; like a ghost! And there is no scientific evidence that proves other wise.Your view is meaningless unless it jives with facts of reality. You live in your own world, Mickey. That's called delusion. You're delusional. You're impossible to communicate with because you define words any way you choose instead of using definitions that the rest of us use, and you're incapable of interacting with the outside world because of it, and you insist that your ignorance is wisdom like some sort of recluse mountain man. That's too bad.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1509232 wrote: In my view, consciousness is a spirit in humans; and consciousness has no location in the human body. Most think its in the brain, because we peer outwardly with our eyes, and we think consciousness is behind our eyes , some where inside of our heads. But there is absolutely nothing inside of our heads , except bone and tissue! There is no " Consciousness organ inside of the human head." People who think that are simply wrong. Consciousness is just " In" the human, like a spirit; like a ghost! And there is no scientific evidence that proves other wise.


"There is absolutely nothing inside of our heads except physiological tissue of one sort or another.", Quoted by Dr. Julian Jaynes in his book, " The Origin of consciousness", pg. 44-45. Locating consciousness in the head is so ingrained in our learning, that we cannot think other wise. When we are conscious , we are certainly using parts of the brain, but consciousness has no location whatever , except as we imagine it has.
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1509235 wrote: Your view is meaningless unless it jives with facts of reality. You live in your own world, Mickey. That's called delusion. You're delusional. You're impossible to communicate with because you define words any way you choose instead of using definitions that the rest of us use, and you're incapable of interacting with the outside world because of it, and you insist that your ignorance is wisdom like some sort of recluse mountain man. That's too bad.




Well I do live in my own world , and I refuse to live in any other except that which is me and what I am conscious of. We cannot be conscious of, those things we are not conscious of. I am not impossible to communicate with, but it is impossible for other humans to mold my mind in their image. And if that is what your trying to do, I would say that is meaningless. I can only be conscious of the world as I see it. If someone sees it like I do, then we can have agreement. If they don't, then we simply cannot.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1509236 wrote: "There is absolutely nothing inside of our heads except physiological tissue of one sort or another.", Quoted by Dr. Julian Jaynes in his book, " The Origin of consciousness", pg. 44-45. Locating consciousness in the head is so ingrained in our learning, that we cannot think other wise. When we are conscious, we are certainly using parts of the brain, but consciousness has no location whatever , except as we imagine it has.Have you actually read Jaynes's book, Mickey, or have you gotten this off some website?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 13701
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: on the open road
Contact:

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1509238 wrote: Have you actually read Jaynes's book, Mickey, or have you gotten this off some website?


It really wouldn't hurt to open your own consciousness up a bit. You might learn something.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Intelligent design and creationism

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1509239 wrote: It really wouldn't hurt to open your own consciousness up a bit. You might learn something.


So, you agree with what Micky has posted? Have you actually read Jaynes's book? Or are you simply making a statement?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Post Reply

Return to “General Religious Discussions”