Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

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Gnostic Christian Bishop
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

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The Original Meaning Of Original Sin « The Dish

“Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.”

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Original Sin — Ayn Rand Lexicon

From John Galt's speech, in Atlas Shrugged.

“What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man.

Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.”

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Gen 3;22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;

Do you see Eden as our Original Sin or as our Original Virtue?

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DL
Bruv
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Bruv »

Give us all a break Gnostic........you are getting tiresome now
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Mark Aspam
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Mark Aspam »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1497134 wrote: Do you see Eden as our Original Sin or as our Original Virtue?Since no such place ever existed it's pretty much a moot point.

Your description of Jewish teaching is fairly accurate though.
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by LarsMac »

The real "Sin" was not owning up to the mistake. That has continued to be humankind's downfall ever since.
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Mark Aspam;1497148 wrote: Since no such place ever existed it's pretty much a moot point.

Your description of Jewish teaching is fairly accurate though.


True that it is all myth but it is a myth that has been used by Christianity to vilify, discriminate and denigrate women and gays forever.

That is why I do not see this as a moot point to either believers or non-believers.

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DL
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1497169 wrote: The real "Sin" was not owning up to the mistake. That has continued to be humankind's downfall ever since.


I goes to more issues, but indeed, you have a good point.

I see what you describe daily in places like this.

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DL
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bruv;1497147 wrote: Give us all a break Gnostic........you are getting tiresome now


I see that you do not have the moral sense and intelligence to evaluate the two version.

Oh well.

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DL
Mark Aspam
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Mark Aspam »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1497176 wrote: True that it is all myth but it is a myth that has been used by Christianity to vilify, discriminate and denigrate women and gays forever.I wouldn't restrict it to Christianity, nor would I blame such denigration on those verses entirely.

Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew his wife...". Well, at least he didn't marry a total stranger.
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Post by FourPart »

Mark Aspam;1497181 wrote: I wouldn't restrict it to Christianity, nor would I blame such denigration on those verses entirely.

Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew his wife...". Well, at least he didn't marry a total stranger.


Just as well - there wasn't much in the way of online dating agencies by way to get an introduction.
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Mark Aspam;1497181 wrote: I wouldn't restrict it to Christianity, nor would I blame such denigration on those verses entirely.

Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew his wife...". Well, at least he didn't marry a total stranger.


I do not think knew means what you think it does.

But I do agree that there is more in scriptures that vilify and denigrate women and gays than what I have already put.

A lot more.

Shame on those who do not recognize those passages and ignore them for the garbage they are.

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DL
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by LarsMac »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1497225 wrote:

[QUOTE=Mark Aspam;1497181]I wouldn't restrict it to Christianity, nor would I blame such denigration on those verses entirely.

Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew his wife...". Well, at least he didn't marry a total stranger.


I do not think knew means what you think it does.

But I do agree that there is more in scriptures that vilify and denigrate women and gays than what I have already put.

A lot more.

Shame on those who do not recognize those passages and ignore them for the garbage they are.

Regards

DL


If you had a sense of humor, you might have got that.
“All it takes to get elected in twenty-first-century America is a mob of frightened sheep and a wolf with a nice smile,”
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1497258 wrote: If you had a sense of humor, you might have got that.


I got it but instead of just laughing, I decided to also inform on the use of language.

Get a life.

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DL
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1497266 wrote: I got it but instead of just laughing, I decided to also inform on the use of language.

Get a life.

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DL


Maybe you should - it's a sad day when someone can't crack a joke without getting a lecture in return.
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1497269 wrote: Maybe you should - it's a sad day when someone can't crack a joke without getting a lecture in return.


Thanks for the lecture. Get a life.

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DL
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by G#Gill »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1497285 wrote: Thanks for the lecture. Get a life.

Regards

DL


DL, you don't seem to be in a good mood ! The sun is shining after the rain, so we can all cheer up ! :-6 :D
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by LarsMac »

G#Gill;1497288 wrote: DL, you don't seem to be in a good mood ! The sun is shining after the rain, so we can all cheer up ! :-6 :D


But, he seems to really enjoy being a grump. Why take that away from him?
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Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

Post by AnneBoleyn »

LarsMac;1497169 wrote: The real "Sin" was not owning up to the mistake. That has continued to be humankind's downfall ever since.


It wasn't a mistake. A mistake is accidental. This was deliberate. Your synopsis of life on earth is morose, Lars. What downfall are you referring to? We've done great stuff.
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Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1497322 wrote: It wasn't a mistake. A mistake is accidental. This was deliberate.
mis·take, məˈstāk, noun

1.

an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong.

AnneBoleyn;1497322 wrote: Your synopsis of life on earth is morose, Lars. What downfall are you referring to? We've done great stuff.


I'm just working off the story line, is all. The scholars tell us that Eden was Man's downfall.

The usual Narrative is that they disobeyed, and got punished for that. But really, it was just like when you deal with teen-agers. They will do things that they were told not to do. Denial and blaming others is usually the behavior that gets them in real trouble.

This story is classic. And all through the Bible, you can see The People doing the same thing. Whenever they screwed up it was always someone else who caused it.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Not Hebraic scholars. They see the Garden story as humanity growing up (I'm overly simplifying now). I've explained that here before, and usually regret getting involved in these conversations about imaginary friends.
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Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1497340 wrote: Not Hebraic scholars. They see the Garden story as humanity growing up (I'm overly simplifying now). I've explained that here before, and usually regret getting involved in these conversations about imaginary friends.


OK, "Christian Scholars" (These days that seems almost oxymoron material, Hmmm? )

Now I may just have to go read up on it from the Hebraic point of view.
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Post by LarsMac »

It has been several decades since I ever really considered the whole G of E story as anything more than a fable, anyway. I regularly got booted from bible studies for pointing out what appears to be rather obvious.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

LarsMac;1497343 wrote: OK, "Christian Scholars" (These days that seems almost oxymoron material, Hmmm? )

Now I may just have to go read up on it from the Hebraic point of view.


Please do. That way, you are going to the origins, the core, of your adopted belief system.
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Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1497366 wrote: Please do. That way, you are going to the origins, the core, of your adopted belief system.


After posting that comment, I did exactly that. Found some very interesting stuff.

I always (well, for a long time) knew that the "Original Sin" concept was a Xtian construct. It never really bothered me much, as I have long seen that the whole thing was a Myth/Fable more intended to teaching stories than Historical Documentation. So, when I get into discussions about Bible Stories, I am usually in it to discuss the philosophical aspects that the historicity.

The cool thing about folk tales, and fables is that there are always more to the story line that the established message.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1497344 wrote: It has been several decades since I ever really considered the whole G of E story as anything more than a fable, anyway. I regularly got booted from bible studies for pointing out what appears to be rather obvious.


You then wrote this.

" I am usually in it to discuss the philosophical aspects that the historicity. "

The philosophy of this tales is what has been used to demonize, denigrate and discriminate against women and gays for over 2,000 years now.

Why did you choose to just get kicked out instead of trying to fight the poor theology and philosophy and perhaps help to ease the damage that this myth is bringing to women and gays?

For evil to grow, all grouchy people need do is nothing. :lips:

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DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

AnneBoleyn;1497366 wrote: Please do. That way, you are going to the origins, the core, of your adopted belief system.


In light of that good advise.

What is God? | Big Think

The above may be why the Jewish oral tradition as well as Gnostic Christians like me call God I am, and yes, we and the Jews see God as a man.

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DL
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Post by superhorn »

Jews have never believed that anyone who is not a Jew will go to an imaginary place of eternal torment called "hell ".

Christians invented the concept of original sin and the death of Jesus to redeem mankind long after the actual Jesus lived , assuming he actually existed which is not 100 percent proven .

Later , the religion of Islam created the notion that anyone who is not a Muslim will also go to an imaginary place of eternal torment . The Koran was written many years after the death of Mohamed , who according to reports was completely illiterate , and contains numerous statements ATTRIBUTED to him , just as the New Testament contains numerous statements ATTRIBUTED to Jesus and was written long after his death .

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