Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

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Gnostic Christian Bishop
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it child abuse?

Islam begins their indoctrination and brainwashing of their children by early memorizing of the Qur’an, even before their children know the meaning of what they are reading. Recently, in the U.K., some Muslim schools have been closed for preaching anti-Semitism.

Christianity also indoctrinates and brainwashes their children from a young age into their belief systems.









I see all of this indoctrination and proselytizing to children as going against the free will choice of children, when they are older, to choose religion or not, as well as their choice of a religion for it’s moral and ethical views as compared to their indoctrinated and possibly brainwashed choice based on what the father and mother believe in.

Be they political or religious views, parents do have some right to try to have their children follow in their footsteps. I do wonder though if indoctrination and or brainwashing of our children should be allowed to the degree that we allow it.

This thread was born of my viewing the first link and listening to a woman complain about non-Muslims praying in a mosque. Perhaps a valid point since that action was not stated in the agenda. I admit to not knowing if she was Christian or not but her, --- oh my God, --- exclamation made me wonder what Christians thought of this issue of indoctrination and or brainwashing of children since they do it to their own.

Some apologists, like Christopher Hitchens, have termed such teachings as abuse of children.

Which religion, Islam or Christianity, is hurting their children the most?

And.

Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of all children by religions?

Regards

DL
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1490582 wrote: Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it child abuse?

Islam begins their indoctrination and brainwashing of their children by early memorizing of the Qur�an, even before their children know the meaning of what they are reading. Recently, in the U.K., some Muslim schools have been closed for preaching anti-Semitism.

Christianity also indoctrinates and brainwashes their children from a young age into their belief systems.









I see all of this indoctrination and proselytizing to children as going against the free will choice of children, when they are older, to choose religion or not, as well as their choice of a religion for it�s moral and ethical views as compared to their indoctrinated and possibly brainwashed choice based on what the father and mother believe in.

Be they political or religious views, parents do have some right to try to have their children follow in their footsteps. I do wonder though if indoctrination and or brainwashing of our children should be allowed to the degree that we allow it.

This thread was born of my viewing the first link and listening to a woman complain about non-Muslims praying in a mosque. Perhaps a valid point since that action was not stated in the agenda. I admit to not knowing if she was Christian or not but her, --- oh my God, --- exclamation made me wonder what Christians thought of this issue of indoctrination and or brainwashing of children since they do it to their own.

Some apologists, like Christopher Hitchens, have termed such teachings as abuse of children.

Which religion, Islam or Christianity, is hurting their children the most?

And.

Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of all children by religions?

Regards

DL


I certainly think we should - for example, we had a member here who freely admitted that he would never change his fundamentalist Christian beliefs because they were beaten into him with his father's strap from a very young age.

That, obviously, is totally wrong but, with your proposal, where do you draw the line? At the other end of the scale even being brought up in a devout home will "brainwash" the child into the religion. Do you therefore remove children from such households so that they do not become "polluted".
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Post by Bruv »

We ALL brainwash our children......or try to.

We ALL think our way is the right way.

We ALL believe we are doing the very best for our loved ones.
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Post by gmc »

Yes. Just look at the misery in northern ireland because of religion in fact anywhere in the world where there are seperate religious schools. To use the words of rogers annd Hammerstein

You've got to be taught

To hate and fear,

You've got to be taught

From year to year,

It's got to be drummed

In your dear little ear

You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid

Of people whose eyes are oddly made,

And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,

You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,

Before you are six or seven or eight,

To hate all the people your relatives hate,

You've got to be carefully taught!


Why does anyone think religious schools are agood idea and why should society and shopuld society allow religion such power.
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Post by tude dog »

gmc;1490607 wrote: Yes. Just look at the misery in northern ireland because of religion in fact anywhere in the world where there are seperate religious schools. To use the words of rogers annd Hammerstein


Not impressed by that quote.



gmc;1490607 wrote: Why does anyone think religious schools are agood idea and why should society and shopuld society allow religion such power.


In this country, people pay good money to send their kids to religious schools. The problem is the lack of choice. I see no good reason government must have a monopoly on education. Most people can't afford private schools. To give vouchers to parents to supplement such costs would be a great relief.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1490612 wrote: In this country............................


I refer you to this thread

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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1490613 wrote: I refer you to this thread




So your referred me back to another of my enlighting comments. Others need to see what I already know.
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Post by FourPart »

Of course it's abuse - especially when it involves genital mutilation.
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Post by Fuzzy »

Bruv;1490595 wrote: We ALL brainwash our children......or try to.




No we don't. Some of us bring up our children to think for themselves. We can not expect anyone to live their life according to our way of thinking.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Fuzzy;1490637 wrote: No we don't. Some of us bring up our children to think for themselves. We can not expect anyone to live their life according to our way of thinking.


Is it possible to avoid giving any form of bias whilst you're trying to teach your children to think for themselves?

Then there is the inevitable bias that comes from the cultural norms of the society we live in - a child brought up in, say, Manipur in India will have a different worldview to a child brought up in New York no matter how carefully the parents try to be unbiased.

The Jesuit saying, "Give me a child for seven years and I will give you the man" is undoubtedly true.
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Post by Fuzzy »

Bryn Mawr;1490639 wrote: Is it possible to avoid giving any form of bias whilst you're trying to teach your children to think for themselves?

Then there is the inevitable bias that comes from the cultural norms of the society we live in - a child brought up in, say, Manipur in India will have a different worldview to a child brought up in New York no matter how carefully the parents try to be unbiased.

The Jesuit saying, "Give me a child for seven years and I will give you the man" is undoubtedly true.


I think there's a huge difference between brainwashing your offspring and bringing them up to think for themselves.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Fuzzy;1490641 wrote: I think there's a huge difference between brainwashing your offspring and bringing them up to think for themselves.


Undoubtedly but however you bring them up it is impossible to do so without applying some bias to the way that they think - children learn a lot from example and, just by existing, you are imparting your way of thinking - hence my comment about removing children from the homes of devout families, a extreme position I admit but put there to counter the extreme position of the OP.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1490614 wrote: So your referred me back to another of my enlighting comments. Others need to see what I already know.




Your enlightening comment ?

Yeah it's ALL about you.
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Post by Bruv »

Fuzzy;1490637 wrote: No we don't. Some of us bring up our children to think for themselves. We can not expect anyone to live their life according to our way of thinking.


I said "We ALL brainwash our children......or try to."

In your case I will take the last three words off.............but never the less you do alter the thinking of your children...........like it or not.

Positively or negatively it is inevitable.
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by FourPart »

Brainwash or Indoctrinate - or is there a difference?

There is a difference in Brainwashing someone to believe in some Religious story book and Indoctrinating someone to live by a set of sociological morals. Religious Brainwashing teaches that "This Is Right - Everyone Is Wrong, And Therefore Evil". Sociological Indoctrination is to guide someone to accept that others have different beliefs & should be accepted as such, whether you agree with them or not.
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Post by LarsMac »

I cannot say that I agree with your definitions.

Brainwashing is generally defined as a method for the systematic change of one's beliefs, altering what one takes for granted, generally by means of control and manipulation.

Indoctrination is generally instilling the beliefs in the first place through schooling and training.

Sending your kids to a religious school to learn how to be good Catholics would be an example of Indoctrination, while Taking those same good Catholic-indoctrinated kids, and breaking down their belief system and convincing them that L Ron Hubbard, Reverend Moon, Chairman Mao, or Gnostic Christian Bishop is the true Savior of the world would be an example of Brainwashing.
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Post by gmc »

posted by tude dog

Not impressed by that quote.


Singularly inane comment. Kids will play with each other regardless of race, colour or creed it's adults that teach them that some children should be avoided. It becomes part of the culture, in primary school those around me told me I should not play with catholics I thoight it was silly then and I still do. It's not as prevalent now but on a low peep as it were. you don't have to agree with me but you're ignoring facts.

In this country, people pay good money to send their kids to religious schools. The problem is the lack of choice. I see no good reason government must have a monopoly on education. Most people can't afford private schools. To give vouchers to parents to supplement such costs would be a great relief.

#

I live in a country where compulsory primary edication was introduced four hundred years ago not least because if you could read the bible and think for yourself you were less likely to be taken in by the preaching of priests. Education is a right to leave it to the vagaries of religious belioefs is asking for trouble. The right if a child to a good education supercedes the ight of a parent to brainwash them some things are just too important to be left solely to individuals the consequences of religious education are sectarianism and entrenched hatred. That is why you have religious groups condoning terrorism against abortion clinics and anyone who happens to be homosexual or just a little bit different in some way and claiming opprsssion of religion when anyone objects to their bigotry.

I would teach about religion in schools, all of them and allow pupils to decide for themselves. If their faith is so strong why are these people terrified to let their children be educated beyond a narrow belief system?
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Post by Bruv »

gmc;1490691 wrote: I would teach about religion in schools, all of them and allow pupils to decide for themselves. If their faith is so strong why are these people terrified to let their children be educated beyond a narrow belief system?


Like the Islamic script debate ?
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Post by gmc »

Bruv;1490693 wrote: Like the Islamic script debate ?


Just words after all allah means god - god is god jesus is the son of allah if there's only one god why be surprised if the word is different in another language. middle eastern christians call god allah because in theor language that is what it means.

stupid thing to argue about.
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Post by FourPart »

gmc;1490691 wrote:

I live in a country where compulsory primary edication was introduced four hundred years ago not least because if you could read the bible and think for yourself you were less likely to be taken in by the preaching of priests. Education is a right to leave it to the vagaries of religious belioefs is asking for trouble. The right if a child to a good education supercedes the ight of a parent to brainwash them some things are just too important to be left solely to individuals the consequences of religious education are sectarianism and entrenched hatred. That is why you have religious groups condoning terrorism against abortion clinics and anyone who happens to be homosexual or just a little bit different in some way and claiming opprsssion of religion when anyone objects to their bigotry.


We've had a similar sort of thing in the UK for the same amount of time. The different is that the early schools were run by Monks. Hardly a case of independent thought.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1490712 wrote: We've had a similar sort of thing in the UK for the same amount of time. The different is that the early schools were run by Monks. Hardly a case of independent thought.


Hmm... Methinks Bonny Scotland is in the UK :wah:
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Post by FourPart »

Bryn Mawr;1490715 wrote: Hmm... Methinks Bonny Scotland is in the UK :wah:
Not if they had their way ;-)
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1490722 wrote: Not if they had their way ;-)


Touché
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Post by gmc »

FourPart;1490712 wrote: We've had a similar sort of thing in the UK for the same amount of time. The different is that the early schools were run by Monks. Hardly a case of independent thought.


Actually no you didn't the rest of the UK didn't get compulsory edication until voctorian times(1875 education act if memory serves me well) two hundred years ago the literacy rate in scotland was over 90% considerably more than the rest of europe never mind the rest of the UK. university education was open to all - lecturers were paid by those attending but anyone could go. It's no coincidence that many of the leaders in science and philosophy of the enmlightenment were scots.

Course not having had the benefit of a broadly based education system you wouldn't know all that. Lacvk of education maybe that's why the trie keep winning in england. Keep them in the dark and klet them read the daily mail.



Not if they had their way ;-)


You may say so I couldn't possibly comment
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Post by tude dog »

LarsMac;1490688 wrote:

Sending your kids to a religious school to learn how to be good Catholics would be an example of Indoctrination, while Taking those same good Catholic-indoctrinated kids, and breaking down their belief system and convincing them that L Ron Hubbard, Reverend Moon, Chairman Mao, or Gnostic Christian Bishop is the true Savior of the world would be an example of Brainwashing.


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Post by tude dog »

gmc;1490691 wrote:

I would teach about religion in schools, all of them and allow pupils to decide for themselves. If their faith is so strong why are these people terrified to let their children be educated beyond a narrow belief system?


I am all for comparative religions classes. Leave it at that.
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Post by FourPart »

tude dog;1490744 wrote: I am all for comparative religions classes. Leave it at that.
I agree that kids should be educated in the beliefs of the other leading cultures. The problems arise when the person doing the teaching is likely to give their own bias to it, whether intentionally or not, as those who specialise in Religious Studies tend to be of a Religious nature in the first place and are, therefore, unlikely to be neutral on the matter.
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Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1490753 wrote: I agree that kids should be educated in the beliefs of the other leading cultures. The problems arise when the person doing the teaching is likely to give their own bias to it, whether intentionally or not, as those who specialise in Religious Studies tend to be of a Religious nature in the first place and are, therefore, unlikely to be neutral on the matter.


True, mostly. Though one of the most fascinating books I have read about Jesus was written by a Muslim. And I could perceive virtually no bias for his own religious upbringing.
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Post by FourPart »

It's strange that their should be so much vehemency between Muslims & Christians, though, seeing as, according to the Qu'ran, Jesus is one of the Muslim Prophets.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

FourPart;1490768 wrote: It's strange that their should be so much vehemency between Muslims & Christians, though, seeing as, according to the Qu'ran, Jesus is one of the Muslim Prophets.


Highly regarded by Muslims are ALL people of the Book. It is Not Strange when you are dealing with fanatics. Nothing to ponder.
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Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1490768 wrote: It's strange that their should be so much vehemency between Muslims & Christians, though, seeing as, according to the Qu'ran, Jesus is one of the Muslim Prophets.


Simple. The problem comes from everybody thinking everyone else is wrong.
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Post by gmc »

tude dog;1490744 wrote: I am all for comparative religions classes. Leave it at that.


Good grief we agree in something. How do you keep it objective and stop religious parents interfering.
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Post by Ted »

Computer died new hard drive. I think we have enough interference in home life without adding more. Time to leave the family alone unless there is a child safety problem. No we should not.
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Post by FourPart »

"Our houses are identical".

"No they're not. Mine has a door - Yours has windows."

"Mine has a door as well".

"But mine is the True house, as mine has a door AND windows".

"No it's not. Mine is the True house, as it has windows AND a door".
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1490594 wrote: I certainly think we should - for example, we had a member here who freely admitted that he would never change his fundamentalist Christian beliefs because they were beaten into him with his father's strap from a very young age.

That, obviously, is totally wrong but, with your proposal, where do you draw the line? At the other end of the scale even being brought up in a devout home will "brainwash" the child into the religion. Do you therefore remove children from such households so that they do not become "polluted".


I recognize signs of abuse and indoctrination/brainwashing.

The limits would have to be provided by experts.

The point is that to indoctrinate a person into believing in the supernatural is quite evil.

If someone teaches that there is an invisible God that speaks via a talking burning bush, he has a moral responsibility to show he is passing on a truth.

Priests and Imams lie all the time when discussing God. They show that they are immoral.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bruv;1490595 wrote: We ALL brainwash our children......or try to.

We ALL think our way is the right way.

We ALL believe we are doing the very best for our loved ones.


No argument. What I speak of here are the limits that we should put on brainwashing.

Regards

DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

gmc;1490607 wrote: Yes. Just look at the misery in northern ireland because of religion in fact anywhere in the world where there are seperate religious schools. To use the words of rogers annd Hammerstein



Why does anyone think religious schools are agood idea and why should society and shopuld society allow religion such power.


These people who are brainwashing their children would tell us that they are exercising their freedom of religion.



Muslims are no better and may be worse.

Idol worship is evil and that is what Christianity and Islam is all about.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

tude dog;1490612 wrote: Not impressed by that quote.





In this country, people pay good money to send their kids to religious schools. The problem is the lack of choice. I see no good reason government must have a monopoly on education. Most people can't afford private schools. To give vouchers to parents to supplement such costs would be a great relief.


Seems equality of opportunity is not a part of many governments when religions, or lack of, are concerned.

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DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1490618 wrote: Of course it's abuse - especially when it involves genital mutilation.


Indeed and both Christianity and Islam are into that.

Islam takes it further and then sell them as child brides.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Fuzzy;1490637 wrote: No we don't. Some of us bring up our children to think for themselves. We can not expect anyone to live their life according to our way of thinking.


Children will pick up our biases but I agree that there are those who do think about how it is important for children to also make up their own minds on issues.

The supernatural is where I would draw a line.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1490686 wrote: Brainwash or Indoctrinate - or is there a difference?

There is a difference in Brainwashing someone to believe in some Religious story book and Indoctrinating someone to live by a set of sociological morals. Religious Brainwashing teaches that "This Is Right - Everyone Is Wrong, And Therefore Evil". Sociological Indoctrination is to guide someone to accept that others have different beliefs & should be accepted as such, whether you agree with them or not.


Quite a cop out.



Hitler had his beliefs. I do not think they should be accepted by anyone.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing, --- and allow fools to remain un-judged fools.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1490688 wrote: I cannot say that I agree with your definitions.

Brainwashing is generally defined as a method for the systematic change of one's beliefs, altering what one takes for granted, generally by means of control and manipulation.

Indoctrination is generally instilling the beliefs in the first place through schooling and training.

Sending your kids to a religious school to learn how to be good Catholics would be an example of Indoctrination, while Taking those same good Catholic-indoctrinated kids, and breaking down their belief system and convincing them that L Ron Hubbard, Reverend Moon, Chairman Mao, or Gnostic Christian Bishop is the true Savior of the world would be an example of Brainwashing.


If a child does not believe in invisible people or supernatural Gods and normal Christian teachings/indoctrination along with the accompanying peer pressure is applied, then that indoctrination quickly becomes brainwashing.

Indoctrination can be seen as an attempt to brainwash and the brainwashing is when the child has his certified brainwashed diploma.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1490768 wrote: It's strange that their should be so much vehemency between Muslims & Christians, though, seeing as, according to the Qu'ran, Jesus is one of the Muslim Prophets.


Christians ignore the God/prick of the O.T. because they have moved on and know to ignore the barbarian Yahweh and embrace Jesus the good which was my old religious Jesus before Christianity usurped my Chrestian Jesus the good.

Islam has yet to write their good Allah and still follow the God/prick of the O.T.

Regards

DL
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Gnostic Christian Bishop
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

AnneBoleyn;1490782 wrote: Highly regarded by Muslims are ALL people of the Book. It is Not Strange when you are dealing with fanatics. Nothing to ponder.


Strange that some Muslim countries will not allow ( the respected ), to build churches in their countries. Islam/Muslims only respects Sharia.

You have yet to ponder.

Regards

DL
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1490940 wrote: I recognize signs of abuse and indoctrination/brainwashing.

The limits would have to be provided by experts.

The point is that to indoctrinate a person into believing in the supernatural is quite evil.

If someone teaches that there is an invisible God that speaks via a talking burning bush, he has a moral responsibility to show he is passing on a truth.

Priests and Imams lie all the time when discussing God. They show that they are immoral.

Regards

DL


So any form of religious training is abuse or indoctrination/brainwashing?
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by Fuzzy »

Bryn Mawr;1490951 wrote: So any form of religious training is abuse or indoctrination/brainwashing?


That's a definite 'YES'. Telling lies is naughty. Scaring kids with the burning fire of hell is child abuse.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Fuzzy;1490971 wrote: That's a definite 'YES'. Telling lies is naughty. Scaring kids with the burning fire of hell is child abuse.


I can only relate to my own case and my religious upbringing certainly did not include burning fires in hell - I don't even recognise the concept anywhere in the teachings of Jesus.
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by Fuzzy »

Bryn Mawr;1490973 wrote: I can only relate to my own case and my religious upbringing certainly did not include burning fires in hell - I don't even recognise the concept anywhere in the teachings of Jesus.


So, you were spared all the scary stuff.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Fuzzy;1490979 wrote: So, you were spared all the scary stuff.


"Spared"? Not at all. My Grandfather was a lay preacher and it was no part of his religion - or, as far as I can tell, the religion of the Church he belonged to.
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Should we ban the indoctrination and brainwashing of children by religions? Is it chi

Post by LarsMac »

Bryn Mawr;1490984 wrote: "Spared"? Not at all. My Grandfather was a lay preacher and it was no part of his religion - or, as far as I can tell, the religion of the Church he belonged to.


Same with my family church experience. No fear. Simply demonstrating the love and compassion of God to those around us. The Fire and Brimstone stuff was for the wackos.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
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