Take the GLOVES off our troops NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

[BTS]

Italian aid worker Clementina Cantoni sits between two men holding assault rifles pointed at her head in this frame taken from video broadcast by an Afghanistan television station Sunday May 29, 2005. On the tape, which was broadcast by independent Tolo TV, Cantoni, 32, a worker for CARE International, was shown sitting with two men standing next to her with assault rifles in their hands pointed at her head. The aid worker was abducted by armed men on May 16 as she was being driven to her home in the capital, Kabul. (AP Photo/Tolo TV via APTN) ** TV OUT **



A video grab released by a private Afghan television station on May 29, 2005 shows Italian hostage Clementina Cantoni, 32, flanked by gunmen. Cantoni, a worker for the CARE International aid agency, was kidnapped by four armed men who stopped her vehicle on a Kabul street on May 16. REUTERS/REUTERS TV

[capt_buzzard]

I would have thought that the 'American and British forces in Iraq would have captured all these terrorists by now?

[spot]

I don't think Iraq shares a land border with Afghanistan, Captain. Maybe the American and British forces in South Korea could go out and get them instead?

[turbonium]

Looks like a propaganda clip to me - nobody would possibly think they would gain support by doing or showing this. What's next - guns aiming down at babies? Sick stuff, no matter the who, why or where of it all!

Side note - I like that quote by Ronnie, BTS - I'd not read it before!

[turbonium]

Terrorists use propaganda - what else would you call it?

[mominiowa]

Propaganda? - Well I would call it sick I guess......beheading that man on live TV - or hanging our soilders to burn infront of everyone on that bridge?? I really can not say I beleive in this war...I do beleive that we need to be supportive though.....100% of the men and woman there - not becuase we beleive so much in the war - just to have faith in them........

[turbonium]

Propaganda is defined as:

1.The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

2.Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

And yes it is sickening...

[lady cop]

don't know if i am on topic or not....the Nick Berg video made me sick and i have seen everything. but after seeing it i was crying for days.

[turbonium]

Why these news agencies even show this stuff is unbelievable!

[spot]

flopstock wrote: or here's a different kind of idea. Let the italians go get the bad guys who keep kidnapping their aid workers!Oh, the short memories of some people - has Nicola Calipari faded from public sight already? Italians do go and get their hostages back in one piece, but they tend to be accidentally murdered by disgruntled Americans on the way out... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323209.stm might remind you.

These idiots trying to get their country back are obviously using the wrong tactics to expel the foreign troops. What they should do is to all congregate in one place, with their automatic rifles and grenade launchers, out in the boondocks, and invite the invaders to a fair fight, hand to kevlar, rifle to Abrams M1, grenade launcher to Warthog. Perhaps, in the interest of hygiene, they could do all this near a convenient graveyard.

If only these deluded people would either recognize the benefit of American-imposed rulers and restricted sovereignty, or acquire total air superiority. It's a well-known fact that either tactic transforms you overnight from Terrorist to Freedom Fighter.

[spot]

flopstock wrote: spot- never thought i'd be saying this, but you give me the warm fuzzies for Rush Limbaugh .

No, I haven't forgotten. What i suggested however, was that they go in and take out the bad guys. Instead they are paying them off and leaving them to pull the same crap again.

And I have to say that I am getting pretty god damned fed up with your constant insinuations, that our sons and daughters we are sending over there, are sitting around plotting the next atrocity that they can heep on that god forsaken country. They are doing the best job that they can under trying circumstances that are not of their chosing. They are honorable men and women serving their country. They don't get too much say in where they go and what they are to do when they get there.Fortunately, I've never seen or heard your Rush Limbaugh, so he's entirely your problem, not mine. And "take out the bad guys" is so filthy a concept, you have no idea. If my land were invaded, the bad guys would be the "liberators". If your land were invaded, the bad guys would be the "liberators". Stop being so wretchedly nationalistic. I put it as a truism that anyone fighting on their home ground is de facto a patriot, regardless of whether you want him to win or lose.

They, the sons and daughters you're talking about, are indeed doing the best job that they can under trying circumstances that are not of their chosing, just like Pat Tillman was. I have every sympathy with them. It's the utter creeps in charge of them who are responsible for the mess they're having to live through. I've never once criticized your troops on the ground.

As for the Nick Berg video, does anyone in the US still believe that it was what it claimed to be?

This is the same Berg, remember, whose university email account and password was being used by Zacarias Moussaoui before Moussaoui was arrested. This is the same Berg who then turned up in Iraq and was interrogated by the FBI, leading to his father eventually dismissing FBI claims of not holding him in custody with "The Iraqi police do not tell the FBI what to do. The FBI tells the Iraqi police what to do. Who do they think they're kidding?" Just how many "coincidences" is Joe Public meant to swallow?

The CIA were the ones who, from a standing start of not knowing nothing about anything, came out within 24 hours saying they had proof that Al Qaida was responsible for 9/11. They did exactly the same over the Berg video, saying on the day it was released that one of the killers on the tape was the one-legged al-Zarqawi, but that he carefully didn't limp around on the set. It was odd that the only people subsequently rounded up and arrested for Berg's death were Fedayeen militia.

There isn't the least likelihood that the video either showed Berg's death, or that it showed anyone from al Qaida either. All it did was to add to the popular hysteria deflecting domestic US attention from the Abu Graib photos, which had come out two weeks before. I think I mentioned in another thread how deflecting was a priority at the time. Timing gets forgotten, sadly. The US had yet another Bush fire to put out.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: Oh, the short memories of some people - has Nicola Calipari faded from public sight already? Italians do go and get their hostages back in one piece, but they tend to be accidentally murdered by disgruntled Americans on the way out... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323209.stm might remind you.


why am i utterly unsurprised by this. 'disgruntled americans'? oh do, tell! what, may i ask, do you think they were trying to accomplish? let's see - the wolfowitz-rumsfeld-cheney-rove-bush cabal [hereinafter the wrcrbc] did not want sgrena freed - she's a communist, so that's good enough reason to want her dead, right? so, let's think this through. the car was going through a checkpoint. the americans, armed to the teeth, are ordered to kill her. there's nobody around....so why didn't they kill her? why did they only kill calipari? why didn't they just shoot all three, and avoid this terrible embarrassment? if their intention was evil - which is quite emphatically what you are implying by your suggestion that they were 'disgruntled americans' - why didn't they finish the job? oh - of course! the american military is a bunch of bumbling idiots! for that matter, they're all "moral derelicts" as you so tenderly put it.





These idiots trying to get their country back are obviously using the wrong tactics to expel the foreign troops. What they should do is to all congregate in one place, with their automatic rifles and grenade launchers, out in the boondocks, and invite the invaders to a fair fight, hand to kevlar, rifle to Abrams M1, grenade launcher to Warthog. Perhaps, in the interest of hygiene, they could do all this near a convenient graveyard.
i love the topsy-turvey world you've concocted. the extremely violent religious zealots are merely 'freedom fighters' who want their country back (never mind that they are wantonly killing other muslims whose branch of islam they consider as evil as the infidels) - and the military forces - well, as above, we know how you feel about them - the soldiers are the "moral derelicts" - heaven's to betsy, a few beheadings in the name of allah are merely the brave actions of patriots!





If only these deluded people would either recognize the benefit of American-imposed rulers and restricted sovereignty, or acquire total air superiority. It's a well-known fact that either tactic transforms you overnight from Terrorist to Freedom Fighter.
mmm. QED.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: Fortunately, I've never seen or heard your Rush Limbaugh, so he's entirely your problem, not mine. And "take out the bad guys" is so filthy a concept, you have no idea. If my land were invaded, the bad guys would be the "liberators". If your land were invaded, the bad guys would be the "liberators". Stop being so wretchedly nationalistic. I put it as a truism that anyone fighting on their home ground is de facto a patriot, regardless of whether you want him to win or lose.
soooo...the syrian jihadists coming into iraq to murder shiite iraqis...they are...?





They, the sons and daughters you're talking about, are indeed doing the best job that they can under trying circumstances that are not of their chosing, just like Pat Tillmann was. I have every sympathy with them. It's the utter creeps in charge of them who are responsible for the mess they're having to live through. I've never once criticized your troops on the ground.
wow. a bald-faced lie.

Spot: "People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion. They had a choice to be useful members of society, and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines."

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=4







As for the Nick Berg video, does anyone in the US still believe that it was what it claimed to be?
oh. my. god. don't tell me. you don't think it really happened? it was...staged? a fake?



oh. my god. i have video of three other beheadings. the worst of them - because of it's 'sparkling' video clarity - i could only make it halfway through before i began to pass out. have you ever heard the sound of a man breathing through his windpipe, because the jihadist made an initial slice only deep enough to cut through it, leaving the man gasping through this 'new' route for air for about fifteen seconds? i can tell you it is the stuff of nightmares.



let me guess - it's all hollywood special effects, is that it?





This is the same Berg, remember, whose university email account and password was being used by Zacarias Moussaoui before Moussaoui was arrested. This is the same Berg who then turned up in Iraq and was interrogated by the FBI, leading to his father eventually dismissing FBI claims of not holding him in custody with "The Iraqi police do not tell the FBI what to do. The FBI tells the Iraqi police what to do. Who do they think they're kidding?" Just how many "coincidences" is Joe Public meant to swallow?



The CIA were the ones who, from a standing start of not knowing nothing about anything, came out within 24 hours saying they had proof that Al Qaida was responsible for 9/11. They did exactly the same over the Berg video, saying on the day it was released that one of the killers on the tape was the one-legged al-Zarqawi, but that he carefully didn't limp around on the set. It was odd that the only people subsequently rounded up and arrested for Berg's death were Fedayeen militia.



There isn't the least likelihood that the video either showed Berg's death, or that it showed anyone from al Qaida either. All it did was to add to the popular hysteria deflecting domestic US attention from the Abu Graib photos, which had come out two weeks before. I think I mentioned in another thread how deflecting was a priority at the time. Timing gets forgotten, sadly. The US had yet another Bush fire to put out.
just say the word, i'll email you the video of the other beheadings. it's really easy to sit in the comfort of your little home and spin clinically paranoid tales. it's another to see a man have his head cut off. and watch the corpse twitching afterwards while they spit on it, and hurl the head to the ground.



but no - we're the sick ones. not the insane mother****ers who cut off people's heads.



oh, by the way. hi. welcome to the ad hominem, i'm sure you'll have fun with it. you deserve every bit of it.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: just say the word, i'll email you the video of the other beheadings.Do you know, I haven't questioned at all whether the other beheading videos were authentic or not. I don't doubt that they were authentic, or that they were killings committed by the militia kidnappers. I only queried the one of the guy in the rather unlikely fluorescent orange suit with the exremely strange history.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: Do you know, I haven't questioned at all whether the other beheading videos were authentic or not. I don't doubt that they were authentic, or that they were killings committed by the militia kidnappers. I only queried the one of the guy in the rather unlikely fluorescent orange suit with the exremely strange history.
mmm. whatever you say. so why would the one be fake, but the rest real? what was gained? what was accomplished? two of the others were americans also. to what end was one faked and the others not?

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: soooo...the syrian jihadists coming into iraq to murder shiite iraqis...they are...?I didn't mention them at all. Just the natives. I imagine that the syrian jihadists coming into iraq to murder shiite iraqis are (1) few in number and (2) dreadful people to whom I would be unlikely to issue a dinner invite. I don't like them.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: I didn't mention them at all. Just the natives. I imagine that the syrian jihadists coming into iraq to murder shiite iraqis are (1) few in number and (2) dreadful people to whom I would be unlikely to issue a dinner invite. I don't like them.
you just like the iraqi jihadists. presumably you would issue an invite to them. of course, they'd likely have *you* for dinner, or at least entrails. hmm, my french she is not so good. perhaps i meant hors' doeuvres?

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: mmm. whatever you say. so why would the one be fake, but the rest real? what was gained? what was accomplished? two of the others were americans also. to what end was one faked and the others not?You'd do better to ask the field officer responsible, I wasn't there. I've already mentioned the timing, and the need to deflect attention, and the need to stir up some all-fired righteous Christian wrath at home. Of course there are criminal kidnap gangs out there. Maybe the first video created a local bandwagon? It most certainly, in my opinion, doesn't depict what was claimed for it when it was released. There's professional autopsy surgeon opinion out there on the web that says the same which, given the unforgiveable lack of a real official US autopsy, is two bonuses to my point of view. What's the last thing you do if you've murdered someone? Supress the autopsy.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: you just like the iraqi jihadists. presumably you would issue an invite to them.presuming the worst about others is a disease of another sort, and another discussion.

anastrophe wrote: of course, they'd likely have *you* for dinner, or at least entrails. hmm, my french she is not so good. perhaps i meant hors' doeuvres?You're not half-way through a binge drinking session, are you?

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: You'd do better to ask the field officer responsible, I wasn't there.
i see. so, just to be clear, you are stating that nick berg's beheading didn't take place, or that he was beheaded by CIA black ops, or that his beheading was directed by CIA black ops or?





There's professional autopsy surgeon opinion out there on the web
oh that's a rigorous source.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: presuming the worst about others is a disease of another sort, and another discussion.
cute, but not responsive. would you have iraqi jihadists to dinner? you say syrian jihadists *wouldn't* get a dinner invite, so it suggests iraqi jihadists would. just trying to clear that up.





You're not half-way through a binge drinking session, are you?
nope, sorry, but thanks for asking! no, quite simply, i loathe you. no hard feelings, your mentality just makes my stomach churn. anything, everything, is evil americans at work. i note you've thus far been nonresponsive to the query about why the evil americans would kill calipari, but not bother to finish the job and kill sgreni and the driver.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: i see. so, just to be clear, you are stating that nick berg's beheading didn't take place, or that he was beheaded by CIA black ops, or that his beheading was directed by CIA black ops or?No, doubtful, and why just CIA?. Of course Mr Berg's head was cut off at some point. The video had nothing to do with his death. I know nothing about how your agencies do these things, but I doubt if the career payroll staff would be on the video. Neither would I think the CIA were the only agency capable of arranging things. I had a vague idea that the guys in the video were reckoned by some to be Russians. I suggest that responsibility for what happened, the controlling mind, the planner, was a part of your intelligence system and not what was claimed in the video.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: cute, but not responsive. would you have iraqi jihadists to dinner? you say syrian jihadists *wouldn't* get a dinner invite, so it suggests iraqi jihadists would. just trying to clear that up.Of course not, you silly chap. Stop tilting at windmills.



anastrophe wrote: nope, sorry, but thanks for asking! no, quite simply, i loathe you. no hard feelings, your mentality just makes my stomach churn. anything, everything, is evil americans at work. i note you've thus far been nonresponsive to the query about why the evil americans would kill calipari, but not bother to finish the job and kill sgreni and the driver.If you look back, the suggestion that the journalist involved was the target is entirely your own. " did not want sgrena freed - she's a communist, so that's good enough reason to want her dead, right?" is entirely your own invention. You have a sad tendency to set up Aunt Sally just so you can be applauded when you subsequently knock her over.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: Of course not, you silly chap. Stop tilting at windmills.
sorry, you don't rate as a 'windmill'. windbag, perhaps.





If you look back, the suggestion that the journalist involved was the target is entirely your own. " did not want sgrena freed - she's a communist, so that's good enough reason to want her dead, right?" is entirely your own invention. You have a sad tendency to set up Aunt Sally just so you can be applauded when you subsequently knock her over.
mmmm. i see. so your contention is that calipari was the intended target? and, of course, the bumbling american soldiers decided to let the incredibly shrill harpie sgrena return to italy to to tell all? we'll ignore for a moment that in all likelyhood the italians paid a ransom for sgreni's release - lending aid to the enemy, likely used to facilitate killing more innocent iraqis...

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: No, doubtful, and why just CIA?.sorry, i was trying to use the language of the tinfoil hat contingent. CIA, black ops, you now, the evil guys who do all the bad things in iraq. heck, maybe it's not the jihadists we're fighting in iraq, it's actually cia operatives, sent in to give our boys something to do!





Of course Mr Berg's head was cut off at some point. The video had nothing to do with his death.you keep saying this. i'd love to see your sources. i did a bit of poking on google, and came up with long lists of wild-eyes raving lunatics suggesting everything from george bush killing the guy himself, to aliens being responsible.



i'm curious what *your* news source is. assuming it's not one of the above (a dangerous assumption).





I know nothing about how your agencies do these things, but I doubt if the career payroll staff would be on the video. Neither would I think the CIA were the only agency capable of arranging things. I had a vague idea that the guys in the video were reckoned by some to be Russians. I suggest that responsibility for what happened, the controlling mind, the planner, was a part of your intelligence system and not what was claimed in the video.so, no possibility, in your mind, that it was retribution for the abu ghraib photos, as the jihadists themselves said in the video?



of course, this all then summons the next round of nonsensical paranoia mentality. if the (insert evil US agency here) was capable of staging berg's beheading, then later killing him (or was it someone else who killed him? it's so hard to keep track when clinical paranoia is at work), and of course supressing any autopsy - if there's that sort of manpower and skill available - why were they not able to keep the abu ghraib photos supressed in the first place?



heck - i'd turn it right around the other way if i put on my tinfoil hat - the abu ghraib photos were all faked! none of it took place, it was anti-american propaganda created by....bourgeous UK leftists? i dunno. i can't keep track.

[spot]

Back in the 30s there was an Irish journalist whose reporting I very much admired. There were three, actually, around mid-century, all going into the Vietnam period, all war correspondents, Claud Cockburn, Rene Cutforth and James Cameron (who was accused of being a dupe of communism - "When they call you a dupe," Cameron replied, "what they are really complaining about is that you are not their dupe.")

Anyway, Claud Cockburn's sons are all journalists, and Alexander owns and runs Counterpunch. The best background article I know for the Italian hostage rescue is there, at http://www.counterpunch.org/leonardi03122005.html

There are, of course, no news sources out there that I'd trust to know, if they claim to know, what the intelligence services have done, so far. Neither do I know. By all means continue to denigrate my opinion - "tinfoil hat contingent" just improves my credibility, when you have to stoop to that level of attack. You've put your opinion here, I've put mine, I feel mine is coherent and sustainable. We have, at the moment, very little of the landscape that we can both see, from our respective vantage points. I'm sure we both hope that the mists will clear in time and that a respectable version of the truth emerges. Daniel Ellsberg may not be a patriot in your eyes, but I'm sure he is in many others.

[turbonium]

turbonium- i view propaganda as something designedmany years. to either enhance the view of your side of the cause or to detract from the other sides. Like the prison pictures did. I view this as terror simply for the sake of terror. Entirely possible I have too simplistic a view of things. sorry if I overreacted.
No worries - I didn't explain the uses of propaganda in my first thread, so I can understand your reaction. Propaganda is used by many groups in many ways - and the reasons it is used run the gamut. There are often multiple motives for releasing images such as these - IMO it serves more than a single purpose. What those are I don't know, and wouldn't want to speculate. It takes years to reveal the true motives behind many things, if we go by historical examples.

My first reaction (like most) to this and the Nick Berg video is of course anger. But I refuse to be let myself be manipulated by these things anymore. Anger results in 'blind rage' and it really is the way to put us all six feet under. I now take a deep breath and look at the big picture (as much as I can) so my opinion is as rational and logical as I can make it.

By delving into the history of wars, I have seen too many examples of propaganda sparking insanity and death on a worldwide scale. Information is available today that wasn't in the past - and I intend to use it.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote:

There are, of course, no news sources out there that I'd trust to know, if they claim to know, what the intelligence services have done, so far. Neither do I know. By all means continue to denigrate my opinion - "tinfoil hat contingent" just improves my credibility, when you have to stoop to that level of attack.


there's a small problem with that argument unfortunately. You have no credibility. so "improving" on none isn't really possible.

Spot Wrote: "I've never once criticized your troops on the ground."

Spot previously wrote: "People who sign up to the armed forces are moral derelicts, in my opinion. They had a choice to be useful members of society, and they threw it away in exchange for a lot of money and a great deal of personal satisfaction playing with noisy killing machines."



oh, dear. yes, i know, after vociferous protests, from all quarters, you eventually 'retracted' that statement. well, sorry. it lives on. and it will live on. you betrayed your true self with that one, for all to see.



my father volunteered to fight in world war II. as did both of his brothers. one of my uncles died at the hands of the nazis. my father watched one of his brothers in arms disintegrate upon being hit by a mortar. my father was wounded while carrying another wounded soldier to a troop truck that rolled over a land mine.



my father signed up for the armed forces after being told by an elderly jewish gentleman from his neighborhood that 'they're killing jews over there'.



the only moral derelict here is you, sir.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: my father signed up for the armed forces after being told by an elderly jewish gentleman from his neighborhood that 'they're killing jews over there'. Remind me, what was it you explained to me earlier about Godwin's law?

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: Remind me, what was it you explained to me earlier about Godwin's law?
that you, sir, are the moral derelict. you should be ashamed of yourself for a comment like that in response to what i wrote.



but i expect no apology, much as i tendered none for my (tepid, by comparison) affront elsewhere recently.

[anastrophe]

for those who might like a different perspective on iraq, afghanistan et al, i highly recommend Christopher Hitchens (and knock me over with a feather, he's

a brit!).



just a few examples:

http://www.slate.com/id/2118820

http://www.slate.com/id/2118306

http://www.slate.com/id/2112895

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723



a refreshing tonic to the lugubrious conspiracy tales rendered here.

[spot]

flopstock wrote: I guess you lost me completely at this point. Are you saying you are a pacifist? Is that what all of this crap you spew is about? Why in the hell would you not take out the bad guys that are kidnapping your citizens, killing and ransoming them, in a war zone?Absolutely, totally, pacifist. I don't think that's the issue, though. This only involves an overwhelming military suppression of a local indigenous population because it hasn't been treated from the beginning as a matter of law enforcement. You may say, and you may well be right, that things have passed the point where they can be considered in that light any longer. Your government has sent troops abroad in a matter that was initially one of policing. It has escalated from a policing issue to one in which "taking out bad guys" is the kneejerk norm. It is a detestable philosophy. These are people you're discussing, and for every one who has pointed a weapon at a "liberating" soldier, your forces have brought about the death of a dozen who haven't. It is disproportionate, which is also a matter of legal relevance.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: for those who might like a different perspective on iraq, afghanistan et al, i highly recommend Christopher Hitchens (and knock me over with a feather, he's

a brit!).The honorable gentleman is refering to our "drink-soaked former Trotskyist popinjay", perhaps? Ghastly creature. Another that gets no dinner invite, rabid turncoat that he is.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: Absolutely, totally, pacifist.
so, i take from this that had you had any say, you'd have surrendered england to germany, going down neville chamberlain's path, is that correct? if you are absolutely, totally, pacifist, then that means you are against any and all military activity. therefore, the ovens at auschwitz could have kept on burning, within your moral landscape, correct? and they would continue burning to this day (though i doubt any jews or gypsies or homosexuals would be left for them). using violence to stop violence is anathema to the total pacifist, so lifting a finger to stop hitler would not have been acceptable, correct?



godwin. godwin. godwin, by god yes of course i am aware. just trying to get a grip on your moral compass here.



my opinion? pacifism is absolutely, totally, morally bankrupt.

[anastrophe]

spot wrote: The honorable gentleman is refering to our "drink-soaked former Trotskyist popinjay", perhaps? Ghastly creature. Another that gets no dinner invite, rabid turncoat that he is.
heh. drink-soaked and utterly besotted he runs rings around you, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed in the morning.



he's a truly brilliant writer, albeit rather a bit too enamored of himself, and an atheist, but those are faults i can happily overlook for the output of his perspicacious pen.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: so, i take from this that had you had any say, you'd have surrendered england to germany, going down neville chamberlain's path, is that correct? if you are absolutely, totally, pacifist, then that means you are against any and all military activity. therefore, the ovens at auschwitz could have kept on burning, within your moral landscape, correct? and they would continue burning to this day (though i doubt any jews or gypsies or homosexuals would be left for them). using violence to stop violence is anathema to the total pacifist, so lifting a finger to stop hitler would not have been acceptable, correct?



godwin. godwin. godwin, by god yes of course i am aware. just trying to get a grip on your moral compass here.



my opinion? pacifism is absolutely, totally, morally bankrupt.You have so little grasp, anastrophe. If you want to learn about pacifism, go and read about it in a library. Stop asking me to feed you all the time. Some people have said pacifism is absolutely, totally, morally bankrupt ever since the word was first coined. Some others have defended it. The library has a better selection of arguments than either of us is likely to develop, given your antipathy. I assume you still have libraries? Nobody's burning books there yet?

Meanwhile, in the unlikely event that I see a soldier attempting to rape my sister, I shall try, in the manner of Lytton Strachey, to come between them.

[spot]

anastrophe wrote: i'm curious what *your* news source is. assuming it's not one of the above (a dangerous assumption).Just to dot the i's and cross the t's, looking back at my notepad where I copy-paste as I go, that was all from Copyright 2004 Times Newspapers Limited Sunday Times (London) May 23, 2004, Sunday.

You have several real live beheadings on your hard drive, you tell me. Perhaps it accounts for your frothing-at-the-mouth behavior in this thread, but goodness knows why you feel the need to pollute your mind with it in the first place. I suggest that there is a total disparity between what you see on those, and what you see on the one I describe as inauthentic. I'm given to understand that a lack of projectile arterial bleeding is considered indicative of a decapitation of a corpse. If I'm wrong, you'll no doubt tell me so. I'm not prepared to go and see for myself. You can be our self-appointed expert in that area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg_ ... y_theories is a description (though not a commendation) of various points of view. In particular, it carries this text:

[report...] by a member of the International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts (IABPA). (http://www.iabpa.org/) It concludes "...the blood pattern shown in the video is NOT consistent with the cutting or breaching of the carotid artery or arteries of a person where the victim's blood pressure would be considered to be within the normal range. Based on this observation alone, this investigator questions the authenticity of the video as it was been presented for bloodstain pattern analysis."

[BTS]

spot wrote: I didn't mention them at all. Just the natives. I imagine that the syrian jihadists coming into iraq to murder shiite iraqis are (1) few in number and (2) dreadful people to whom I would be unlikely to issue a dinner invite. I don't like them.Oh really now. I know you want to see only what you want to see about who your true heros over in Iraq are. You need to get your head outa the sand and see just who they are are and where they are coming from. They are not Iraqis for the main part. They are the very same people who cheered the downing of "OUR" trade center buildings



Syrian Officer Admits Training Terrorist to Behead on Video

Syria Arrests 1,200 Headed for Iraq

Syria Stops Cooperating With U.S. Forces and C.I.A.

Leaving slums of Paris, two Muslim teens turn to waging jihad

Jihadists in Iraq

Researcher Estimates Over 2500 Saudis Left for Jihad in Iraq Since 2003



If you believe the jihadists are just natives you are as ignorant as I assumed when I read your first post a few months ago.

[BTS]

spot wrote: No, doubtful, and why just CIA?. Of course Mr Berg's head was cut off at some point. The video had nothing to do with his death. I know nothing about how your agencies do these things, but I doubt if the career payroll staff would be on the video. Neither would I think the CIA were the only agency capable of arranging things. I had a vague idea that the guys in the video were reckoned by some to be Russians. I suggest that responsibility for what happened, the controlling mind, the planner, was a part of your intelligence system and not what was claimed in the video.I still have not seen any proof to your assumption that



Quote Scat:

"I suggest that responsibility for what happened, the controlling mind, the planner, was a part of your (Text enlarged by BTS) intelligence system and not what was claimed in the video

Please show me where my country's intelligence was responsibe for the atrocious murder of Mr Nick Berg.

I take exception to your accusation against my country and demand an apology to ALL Americans unless you have truth to back it up with.

[BTS]

spot wrote: The honorable gentleman is refering to our "drink-soaked former Trotskyist popinjay", perhaps? Ghastly creature. Another that gets no dinner invite, rabid turncoat that he is.Quote scat:

You're not half-way through a binge drinking session, are you?





Everybody must be DRUNK that does not agree with your speil?

Just a question as you seem to toss it out quite a bit!

[spot]

BTS wrote: If you believe the jihadists are just natives you are as ignorant as I assumed when I read your first post a few months ago.Have you actually read those references, BTS?

...no date was provided. It was not possible to authenticate the claims.

An unidentified Iraqi officer introduced the video, saying all insurgent groups in Iraq were covers for Syrian intelligence. He named a number of well-known groups, including one which has killed and beheaded foreigners.

Iraqiya TV is believed to be widely watched by Iraqis mainly those who cannot afford satellite dishes offering the Gulf-based Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya stations. But the station, which went on the air in May 2003 with help from the Pentagon, is viewed by many Iraqis as an American propaganda tool having a pro-American slant. And you call *me* naive???

[BTS]

spot wrote: You have so little grasp, anastrophe. If you want to learn about pacifism, go and read about it in a library. Stop asking me to feed you all the time. Some people have said pacifism is absolutely, totally, morally bankrupt ever since the word was first coined. Some others have defended it. The library has a better selection of arguments than either of us is likely to develop, given your antipathy. I assume you still have libraries? Nobody's burning books there yet?



Meanwhile, in the unlikely event that I see a soldier attempting to rape my sister, I shall try, in the manner of Lytton Strachey, to come between them.
What if it is MY sister?

Turn your back?



Yah just as I thought.

[spot]

BTS wrote: Quote scat:

You're not half-way through a binge drinking session, are you?





Everybody must be DRUNK that does not agree with your speil?

Just a question as you seem to toss it out quite a bit!I have never, to my recollection, suggested that anyone on FG has been drinking, before today. Where do you think I've tossed it out in the past?

[BTS]

spot wrote: Just to dot the i's and cross the t's, looking back at my notepad where I copy-paste as I go, that was all from Copyright 2004 Times Newspapers Limited Sunday Times (London) May 23, 2004, Sunday.



You have several real live beheadings on your hard drive, you tell me. Perhaps it accounts for your frothing-at-the-mouth behavior in this thread, but goodness knows why you feel the need to pollute your mind with it in the first place. I suggest that there is a total disparity between what you see on those, and what you see on the one I describe as inauthentic. I'm given to understand that a lack of projectile arterial bleeding is considered indicative of a decapitation of a corpse. If I'm wrong, you'll no doubt tell me so. I'm not prepared to go and see for myself. You can be our self-appointed expert in that area.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg_ ... y_theories is a description (though not a commendation) of various points of view. In particular, it carries this text:



[report...] by a member of the International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts (IABPA). (http://www.iabpa.org/) It concludes "...the blood pattern shown in the video is NOT consistent with the cutting or breaching of the carotid artery or arteries of a person where the victim's blood pressure would be considered to be within the normal range. Based on this observation alone, this investigator questions the authenticity of the video as it was been presented for bloodstain pattern analysis."
So then tell us all.............. Where is Mr Nick Berg then?

[spot]

BTS wrote: What if it is MY sister?

Turn your back?



Yah just as I thought.Perhaps a photo would be in order, at this point. I don't do blind dates.

[BTS]

spot wrote: I have never, to my recollection, suggested that anyone on FG has been drinking, before today. Where do you think I've tossed it out in the past?Look at your quotes. You used it TWICE in this thread