Blind patriotism......the thread

Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

There you are ahso......

Unabashed blind patriotism.

Discuss
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Post by Snooz »

Is it blind patriotism to condemn the leaders but respect the troops? I don't believe it is.
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Post by Bruv »

I have a problem with any sort of patriotism.

We are who we are by pure chance, why feel better or superior due to an accident of birth ?

The need to belong is a human condition that follows us through life, we all belong 'proudly' to different groups.

At school, Miss Browns class is the best, in Towns the south side is better than the north side, at work the night shift are lazy.

Patriotism is a form of this need to belong.

Blind patriotism is an affliction.

It would be nice if when they 'threw a war' nobody turned up, but it is not that simple, unfortunately.
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Post by Ahso! »

It may help in any endeavor to reach agreement on a definition to provide examples. Blind patriotism may present itself by varying degree, so here is one very obvious example of the term and here is a more subtle example though equally as blind.

Now before anyone goes getting their panties all in a bunch over these examples, that's my take. Show me where I'm wrong if you disagree.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Accountable »

Troop here. Just short of 21 years' service.

Hundreds of thousands of people serve in today's military. I think it is a stretch to claim that they are all blind patriots. Many are not patriotic at all. One branch where you will find blind patriotism in abundance is in the US Marine Corps. These people are not unintelligent. Unintelligent blind patriots get shunted to the army ... or to Wal-mart ;). Is this blind patriotism bad? In my opinion, no it isn't. It's essential in fighting a war. People don't willingly give their lives for a logical set of political priorities. Such sacrifice is more emotional, even primal. It demands a certainty of purpose beyond any logic or argument. This is the mentality of a warrior.

Understanding such a mindset is impossible unless one has shared it. I haven't, not really, so I can try to empathize but never truly understand. Such single-mindedness baffles me, no matter what the single mind is focused on. But we need such people. Not by the millions, but certainly in the hundreds or thousands. Why? Because someone else has their own people with this mindset, and may turn them on us, and we need to be able to respond.

To say that people who join the military must adopt the military lifestyle of trusting the system and obeying orders instantly, while simultaneously questioning the origin and purpose of those orders, is asking too much. They are putting their own personal liberty on hold to help preserve the liberty of all. To blame them for following orders contrary to what they are told, to hold them accountable for the political manipulations of those placed above them, is unfair in the extreme. The soldier and the warrior are honorable, regardless of the people who make strategy for them, and deserve to be honored. Are there exceptions? Certainly; there always are. But the exceptions are far too few to allow them to affect our opinion of the whole.

So to say that some join the military out of blind patriotism may be accurate, but it is no insult. And to say that those who honor them are all blind patriots is an exaggeration, and they do not deserve to be insulted.
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Post by Snooz »

I'm not insulted by being called a 'blind patriot' since it's actually rather funny. The far right has usurped the word "patriot" to describe themselves and I'm definitely not a Tea Party member. If Ahso feels this strongly about a subject s/he doesn't appear to know very much about, then s/he can continue to call me whatever s/he pleases. It's no skin off my nose.

I still support our troops.
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Post by Ahso! »

SnoozeAgain;1379114 wrote: I'm not insulted by being called a 'blind patriot' since it's actually rather funny. The far right has usurped the word "patriot" to describe themselves and I'm definitely not a Tea Party member. If Ahso feels this strongly about a subject s/he doesn't appear to know very much about, then s/he can continue to call me whatever s/he pleases. It's no skin off my nose.

I still support our troops.
You take my reference to the link too personal. What I've said is the slogan you've adopted is a blindly patriotic one that lacks thought. The fact that you've adopted it causes me to rethink my opinion of you, but that shouldn't matter in the least to you. Not in my opinion anyway.

You support the troops? Okay! Do you support the troop members from the infamous events of Abu Ghraib or the members who had gone out and raped? How about those troops that tortured and murdered families on their own? Do you support all those troops?
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Post by Ahso! »

To be clear, I don't recall saying all the members of the military are or have been "blind patriots". What I have said is blanket support of the troops is in many cases blindly patriotic.

My personal opinion about members of this current military taking responsibility for what they've done is essential to advancing the moral fiber of the society as a whole. We cannot go forward from here ever permitting a president or congress to lead us into these conflicts again, and a good place to begin that process holding a mirror up to ourselves and having a very, very difficult conversation about what is and isn't blindly patriotic. Patriotism is, IMV, a condition we had better begin the process of exorcising from our collective if we wish to break free of the indoctrination that scars us.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Accountable;1379113 wrote: Troop here. Just short of 21 years' service.

Hundreds of thousands of people serve in today's military. I think it is a stretch to claim that they are all blind patriots. Many are not patriotic at all. One branch where you will find blind patriotism in abundance is in the US Marine Corps. These people are not unintelligent. Unintelligent blind patriots get shunted to the army ... or to Wal-mart ;). Is this blind patriotism bad? In my opinion, no it isn't. It's essential in fighting a war. People don't willingly give their lives for a logical set of political priorities. Such sacrifice is more emotional, even primal. It demands a certainty of purpose beyond any logic or argument. This is the mentality of a warrior.

Understanding such a mindset is impossible unless one has shared it. I haven't, not really, so I can try to empathize but never truly understand. Such single-mindedness baffles me, no matter what the single mind is focused on. But we need such people. Not by the millions, but certainly in the hundreds or thousands. Why? Because someone else has their own people with this mindset, and may turn them on us, and we need to be able to respond.

To say that people who join the military must adopt the military lifestyle of trusting the system and obeying orders instantly, while simultaneously questioning the origin and purpose of those orders, is asking too much. They are putting their own personal liberty on hold to help preserve the liberty of all. To blame them for following orders contrary to what they are told, to hold them accountable for the political manipulations of those placed above them, is unfair in the extreme. The soldier and the warrior are honorable, regardless of the people who make strategy for them, and deserve to be honored. Are there exceptions? Certainly; there always are. But the exceptions are far too few to allow them to affect our opinion of the whole.

So to say that some join the military out of blind patriotism may be accurate, but it is no insult. And to say that those who honor them are all blind patriots is an exaggeration, and they do not deserve to be insulted.



Brilliant post.

Well said.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1379116 wrote: You take my reference to the link too personal. What I've said is the slogan you've adopted is a blindly patriotic one that lacks thought. The fact that you've adopted it causes me to rethink my opinion of you, but that shouldn't matter in the least to you. Not in my opinion anyway.

You support the troops? Okay! Do you support the troop members from the infamous events of Abu Ghraib or the members who had gone out and raped? How about those troops that tortured and murdered families on their own? Do you support all those troops?



In any conflict where-ever In the world, Shyte happens. When you're a grown up, you can deal with It exactly the same as when the enemy beheads US aid workers.

What Is Important to recognise In the ridiculous example you are trying to make, Is to look at the percentages of serving military who abuse their position against thousands and thousands of serving troops.

You are trying to label an entire Nation because the actions of a very small minority, deliberately I suspect for your own sad agenda here.
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Post by Ahso! »

oscar;1379120 wrote: In any conflict where-ever In the world, Shyte happens. When you're a grown up, you can deal with It exactly the same as when the enemy beheads US aid workers.

What Is Important to recognise In the ridiculous example you are trying to make, Is to look at the percentages of serving military who abuse their position against thousands and thousands of serving troops.

You are trying to label an entire Nation because the actions of a very small minority, deliberately I suspect for your own sad agenda here.
Accountable's post was brilliant according to you, Oscar? Reread it, it left out personal attacks and references. You should follow his example and stick to the subject unless someone specifically addresses or mentions you, where a personal response is warranted. IOW, try thinking objectively.
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Post by gmc »

Blind patriotism is a bad thing when it means anyone who dares to criticise the government is condemned as being unpatriotic. You seem to be in the throes of another similar time to the mccarthy era when anyone speaking out or criticising is shouted down as unamerican. It's a subtle way of preventing people speaking out about injustice, anyone suggesting social change is needed seems to be shouted down. Your occupy wall street protesters are portrayed as out of work latter day hippies that want to destroy america rather than citizens exercising their right to protest and you see nothing wrong with the police going in mob handed to shift them. Supporting your troops is one thing but adulation is just one step on to militarism where military efficiency is the supreme ideal of the state and to subordinate all other interests to those of the military. Roosevelt warned about it, so did eisenhower. Blind patriotism means no one question it when you are told other nations want to attack you and are envious of your freedoms. The reality is most other nations just want to be left alone and not invaded. Blind patriotism also means you question when you are told china and russia are an imminent threat and you need a strong military just in case they attack you because that is what envious foreigners do.

We too have our blind patriots but being british I can tell them where to go and fascist bastard is a description I can use freely and they know exactly what I mean.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1379123 wrote: Accountable's post was brilliant according to you, Oscar? Reread it, it left out personal attacks and references. You should follow his example and stick to the subject unless someone specifically addresses or mentions you, where a personal response is warranted. IOW, try thinking objectively.

As I suspected, childish jealousey because another members post Is congratulated.... still, you can learn from Acc and JJ... who knows? You may write something of your own one day.
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Post by Bruv »

Ahso!;1379123 wrote: Accountable's post was brilliant according to you, Oscar? Reread it, it left out personal attacks and references. You should follow his example and stick to the subject unless someone specifically addresses or mentions you, where a personal response is warranted. IOW, try thinking objectively.



How ironic ??
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Post by Ahso! »

Look, Bruv, you started this thread and invited me to participate in it. Is this what you had in mind, for you and your minions to make it about me? If so, say so, or address the subject.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1379129 wrote: Look, Bruv, you started this thread and invited me to participate in it. Is this what you had in mind, for you and your minions to make it about me? If so, say so, or address the subject.

Then try this format as It tends to work for others....

If you don't agree with Acc's post, then quote him and tell HIM why you do not agree.

Do not quote an entirely different member because THEY happen to agree with him because you are not addressing the person you are disagreeing with.

Comprende ?
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Post by Ahso! »

oscar;1379130 wrote: Then try this format as It tends to work for others....

If you don't agree with Acc's post, then quote him and tell HIM why you do not agree.

Do not quote an entirely different member because THEY happen to agree with him because you are not addressing the person you are disagreeing with.

Comprende ?
I've said what I intended to say regarding Acct's post, you obviously didn't catch it.

you quoted me and made accusations, Oscar, so I responded to you.

I'm not going to play this game with you three. I will address the subject and any references to me that lack ad hominein attacks if and when i please.

I won't be talking about this any longer.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Bruv »

Ahso!;1379129 wrote: Look, Bruv, you started this thread and invited me to participate in it. Is this what you had in mind, for you and your minions to make it about me? If so, say so, or address the subject.

My minions ?

Many topics descend into so called points of order, I try and keep away from such things, this time I broke my own rule.

I can't be arsed arguing the toss honestly.

I agree with much Acc and gmc said, trouble is I believe Americans have a totally different type of national pride to the British.

I understand it is a daily requirement for school children to show allegiance to the flag and constitution, am I wrong in this ?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1379131 wrote: I've said what I intended to say regarding Acct's post, you obviously didn't catch it.





No I didn't........ I skim past your posts In the main.... same old crap... different words...
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1379132 wrote: My minions ?

Many topics descend into so called points of order, I try and keep away from such things, this time I broke my own rule.

I can't be arsed arguing the toss honestly.

I agree with much Acc and gmc said, trouble is I believe Americans have a totally different type of national pride to the British.

I understand it is a daily requirement for school children to show allegiance to the flag and constitution, am I wrong in this ?

Flag and Union, Bruv, and yes it's daily in my public school. Politicians and soldiers swear to support and defend the Constitution.
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Post by Bruv »

Accountable;1379136 wrote: Flag and Union, Bruv, and yes it's daily in my public school. Politicians and soldiers swear to support and defend the Constitution.



Then that is the foundation that blind patriotism is based on.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Accountable;1379136 wrote: Flag and Union, Bruv, and yes it's daily in my public school. Politicians and soldiers swear to support and defend the Constitution.
If we had the same here In England, I believe much would be different. I find It all very positive.
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Post by Bruv »

oscar;1379139 wrote: If we had the same here In England, I believe much would be different. I find It all very positive.



I think we did once.........hence the carnage in the first world war.
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1379137 wrote: Then that is the foundation that blind patriotism is based on.

I ask my students what they plan to do after graduation. Some say they will join one branch of the military or another. I always ask why, not "WHY???" indicating they shouldn't, but more like a classroom demand for more information. The answer is never patriotic, unless you count family tradition as being patriotic. More often it is to acquire education or job skills. Guys that want to join Marines seldom think past the "it's cool" stage. Those are the guys I want to take to Brooks Army Medical Center here in town & introduce them to the limbless, brain-damaged burn victims to discuss how cool the job is.
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Post by Ahso! »

Bruv;1379137 wrote: Then that is the foundation that blind patriotism is based on.
I agree. The cycle began somewhere in time and then, of course, as these children grow into adults they are models to the next generation and so on.

My father would often preach to me about "great Americans" anytime he had me to himself as in a car ride or having lunch together. That preaching caused me to think in terms of patriotism and is one very big reason i enlisted in the Navy.

Combining the school pledge, along with religious (catholic) ceremonies and rituals and then sports and my father's history lessons makes for a very robotic existence. I often say half of my life was spent being tarred and the other half needs to be dedicated to undoing the damage. That's unfortunate, but luckily American culture is changing, more slowly than I want, but it is. More and more people are being brought up without religion and resisting the pledge and school prayer.
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Post by Bruv »

There is a fine line between having pride in your origins and being a raging patriot.

How do you instill the cohesive qualities without the negative ones ?
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1379149 wrote: There is a fine line between having pride in your origins and being a raging patriot.

How do you instill the cohesive qualities without the negative ones ?

By adding formal training in LOGIC to school curricula and indoctrinating a passion for laying out good arguments.
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Post by Clodhopper »

England, with all thy faults, I love thee still. It's a preference I simply have for home. I love the land the weather the seasons the wild life and even and especially the people. Who get everything wrong and then suddenly out of the blue do something right from the Abolition of Slavery to Live Aid to the Welfare State.

I'm not saying other places aren't wonderful, it's just that I prefer this one to any as home. It's not entirely rational, but then what from the heart is?

I don''t see what these feelings have to do with making judgements about governmental or foreign policy issues. Abu Ghraib was appalling no matter who did it or was responsible for it.

So I'm happy to be English and British. I'm not concerned whether we are "Great" or not. We've survived good times and bad, led the world and fought great evils and we're still here, which is what really matters. And somehow, no matter what tomorrow brings, I believe deep down we will still be here. If only to annoy. :)
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Clodhopper;1379151 wrote: England, with all thy faults, I love thee still. It's a preference I simply have for home. I love the land the weather the seasons the wild life and even and especially the people. Who get everything wrong and then suddenly out of the blue do something right from the Abolition of Slavery to Live Aid to the Welfare State.

I'm not saying other places aren't wonderful, it's just that I prefer this one to any as home. It's not entirely rational, but then what from the heart is?

I don''t see what these feelings have to do with making judgements about governmental or foreign policy issues. Abu Ghraib was appalling no matter who did it or was responsible for it.

So I'm happy to be English and British. I'm not concerned whether we are "Great" or not. We've survived good times and bad, led the world and fought great evils and we're still here, which is what really matters. And somehow, no matter what tomorrow brings, I believe deep down we will still be here. If only to annoy. :)



Brilliant....My sentiments exactly.... well said.
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Post by Accountable »

Clodhopper;1379151 wrote: England, with all thy faults, I love thee still. It's a preference I simply have for home. I love the land the weather the seasons the wild life and even and especially the people. Who get everything wrong and then suddenly out of the blue do something right from the Abolition of Slavery to Live Aid to the Welfare State.

I'm not saying other places aren't wonderful, it's just that I prefer this one to any as home. It's not entirely rational, but then what from the heart is?

I don''t see what these feelings have to do with making judgements about governmental or foreign policy issues. Abu Ghraib was appalling no matter who did it or was responsible for it.

So I'm happy to be English and British. I'm not concerned whether we are "Great" or not. We've survived good times and bad, led the world and fought great evils and we're still here, which is what really matters. And somehow, no matter what tomorrow brings, I believe deep down we will still be here. If only to annoy. :)

This pretty much mirrors my feelings. The bolded part is especially true of me, and, I believe, our "greatness" is our greatest weakness as a nation.
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Post by Bruv »

I would agree whole heartedly too.(Maybe not the weather, although I believe it has formed our character to a far greater extent then we imagine)

As you though, I reserve the right to critisise my Government for any actions they take internally or internationally.

I do not feel apologetic about our colonial past, that I have had no control over, while admitting it has given me many advantages.
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Post by Accountable »

I tried to start a new thread with this vid, but FG wouldn't let me for whatever reason. So I'll drop it in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8NhRPo0WAo
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Post by Clodhopper »

This pretty much mirrors my feelings. The bolded part is especially true of me, and, I believe, our "greatness" is our greatest weakness as a nation.



It's not the "greatness" in itself - I think the USA has much to be proud of - but that the greatness leads to pride and pride very often and very easily turns to arrogance. It's what happened to the British 100 or so years ago, and it's what seems to me to have been happening in the US over the last decade or two. We still get a lot of abuse for it; you can expect the same.

Any Presidential candidate who was genuinely humble would get nowhere, so far as I can see. He would be accused of being unpatriotic and that would be that.

I would agree whole heartedly too.(Maybe not the weather, although I believe it has formed our character to a far greater extent then we imagine)

As you though, I reserve the right to critisise my Government for any actions they take internally or internationally.

I do not feel apologetic about our colonial past, that I have had no control over, while admitting it has given me many advantages.



Yep, even the weather. I was brought up by exercise conscious parents and we walked the dog every day rain or shine unless even the dog refused to leave the house (which did occasionally happen!). The consequence is that rain really doesn't bother me much, especially in the breathable waterproofs you can get these days.

In my view, criticising my government is a patriotic duty. I think there is a lot of truth in the saying that in a modern democracy, people get the government they deserve. As a people, we have been too laid back, too casual, for fifty years or so. We have not dealt well with many important issues. Look at what has been done to the economy...

And both labour and the cons are to blame. They have indulged in class warfare at the expense of the country, whether it's the bosses trying to screw their workforce or the workforce producing shyte goods no-one wants cos they are so badly made. The Lib Dems are to blame for not making our case better and getting ourselves elected.

And like you I do not feel to blame for the Empire. Chuckle - if you want to be picky, It was begun under a Welsh dynasty (the Tudors) and underwent early development under the Stuarts (Scottish) but they've managed to duck responsibility so now the English get the blame.:wah:

And although many appalling things happened in the British Empire I think overall it has been a positive force (I shall pause briefly for the mass heart attacks and general disbelief....) when you look at the countries that were part of it. The great Dominions are all stable relatively well off places. The exceptions are the countries which gained independence post 1947, mostly in Africa. According to my ex-father in law, who was a fairly senior diplomat and had access to this sort of info, there are reports on the readiness for independence of all these countries dating from the late 1940s which state that they need thirty or forty or fifty years to get the administration and civil service culture up and running. They never got the time and Zimbabwe is the result.

Brilliant....My sentiments exactly.... well said.



Be aware that in my opinion, there are Black English people, Muslim English people, Jewish English people as well as Anglo-Saxon English people. We are, and always have been, a mongrel people with roots in many places. We're only called Anglo Saxons because those were the largest and earliest groups. There were also Jutes, Dubliners, Danes, Picts, Scots, Vikings of various flavours, the Normans, the French, lots of Dutch, and black people from about 1600 onwards around the major ports.

Being English is a matter of values more than of blood.
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Post by flopstock »

I think I have only run across two folks on this and other forums who I would label as being blindly patriotic.

There are lots of folks who are blindly party partisan, or movement partisan - they think that makes them a patriot and the other fella not.

I think the least patriotic American would have to be the person who questions another's patriotism. A close second would be the person who fights for our freedoms then turning around and saying they have more of a right to express an opinion than the person they fought for ............ than again perhaps they are just the most confused.
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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by gmc »

Accountable;1379164 wrote: I tried to start a new thread with this vid, but FG wouldn't let me for whatever reason. So I'll drop it in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8NhRPo0WAo



Preaching to the deaf or perhaps to those whose blind patriotism will not allow them to accept the image they have of america as a bastion of freedom is just that, an ideal they like to believe in despite all the evidence to the contrary or politicians are the devious lying crooks that they really are.

You have to laugh at John McCain, American isolationism caused ww2?
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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by Snooz »

Accountable;1379164 wrote: I tried to start a new thread with this vid, but FG wouldn't let me for whatever reason. So I'll drop it in here.




That was an eye opener. No wonder the world hates us. I also thought it was funny that McCain got the least amount of campaign donations from active duty military members.
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Post by Ahso! »

There's not a morsel of patriotism to me.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by gmc »

What do you think of Bradley Manning? Looks like he won't be getting a open and fair trial.
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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by LarsMac »

Accountable;1379143 wrote: I ask my students what they plan to do after graduation. Some say they will join one branch of the military or another. I always ask why, not "WHY???" indicating they shouldn't, but more like a classroom demand for more information. The answer is never patriotic, unless you count family tradition as being patriotic. More often it is to acquire education or job skills. Guys that want to join Marines seldom think past the "it's cool" stage. Those are the guys I want to take to Brooks Army Medical Center here in town & introduce them to the limbless, brain-damaged burn victims to discuss how cool the job is.



When I asked my nephew why he was joining the Marines, he answered, "Someone has to do the dirty work."
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Post by Ahso! »

"Someone has to do the dirty work."

Mafioso or Patriotic? They sound the same to me. It's only missing the "ah".
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by Clodhopper »

Bruv: Read the link. Horror. Please America don't pretend this didn't happen. It does you so much harm.
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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1379312 wrote: "Someone has to do the dirty work."

Mafioso or Patriotic? They sound the same to me. It's only missing the "ah".



Yup. No matter what we do as a country, we citizens will find times when we are forced to step up and put our lives on the line for our family, and our country.

Somebody will have to do it.

Call it what you want, but if nobody ever did stand up, you and I would not be having this conversation.

Whether sending them to Iraq and Afghanistan was right or wrong, they went because it was their duty.

Some may have strayed from that duty. Like in wars before, some forget why they are there, and what their duty is.

But the ones that make it through the madness and live to come home deserve the respect and gratitude of the citizens of their country.

It's not about patriotism. It's about respect.
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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by Snooz »

LarsMac;1379600 wrote: Yup. No matter what we do as a country, we citizens will find times when we are forced to step up and put our lives on the line for our family, and our country.

Somebody will have to do it.

Call it what you want, but if nobody ever did stand up, you and I would not be having this conversation.

Whether sending them to Iraq and Afghanistan was right or wrong, they went because it was their duty.

Some may have strayed from that duty. Like in wars before, some forget why they are there, and what their duty is.

But the ones that make it through the madness and live to come home deserve the respect and gratitude of the citizens of their country.

It's not about patriotism. It's about respect.



Beautifully said, thank you for expressing it better than I could.
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Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1379600 wrote:

Whether sending them to Iraq and Afghanistan was right or wrong, they went because it was their duty.

It's not about patriotism. It's about respect.



This portion is frightening, 'it was their duty' ?

And the final line should read....'It's not about respect. It's about patriotism.'

This post kinda sums up Blind Patriotism to me, with a bit of Hollywood schmaltz thrown in for good measure
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Post by Snooz »

Bruv;1379608 wrote: This portion is frightening, 'it was their duty' ?

And the final line should read....'It's not about respect. It's about patriotism.'

This post kinda sums up Blind Patriotism to me, with a bit of Hollywood schmaltz thrown in for good measure



Really? I read it as "respect our troops for protecting us and our freedoms." Perhaps I'm too dim witted to understand how that's blind patriotism. And when did patriotism become a bad thing? I feel very fortunate for where and when I was born. If that's mockable and name-calling worthy, then so be it.
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Post by Bruv »

SnoozeAgain;1379612 wrote: Really? I read it as "respect our troops for protecting us and our freedoms." Perhaps I'm too dim witted to understand how that's blind patriotism. And when did patriotism become a bad thing? I feel very fortunate for where and when I was born. If that's mockable and name-calling worthy, then so be it.



Maybe so, I could analyse the post with dates and figures and events, but to be honest I am not that knowledgable.

The thread is entitled Blind patriotism, not patriotism.........maybe I should analyse the post in question in my own way.
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Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1379600 wrote: Yup. No matter what we do as a country, we citizens will find times when we are forced to step up and put our lives on the line for our family, and our country.

Somebody will have to do it.

Call it what you want, but if nobody ever did stand up, you and I would not be having this conversation.

I can see the reasons why anybody might want to protect their own, mainly when their own were threatened by a physical attack.

When was the last time America was aggressively attacked by a known attacker ?

Whether sending them to Iraq and Afghanistan was right or wrong, they went because it was their duty.

Their duty or blind patriotism ?

Invading a foreign country, to protect America ? To protect America from what? To protect the people who's country they invaded ? To promote freedom ? Freedom from invasion ? What freedoms are at risk, other than a sovereign countries right of self determination ?


Some may have strayed from that duty. Like in wars before, some forget why they are there, and what their duty is.

But the ones that make it through the madness and live to come home deserve the respect and gratitude of the citizens of their country.



I would suggest their 'Duty' was to question their deployment in the first place. To board a plane and be transported half way around the world and then to interfere in the internal politics of another country with the use of arms and explosives, smacks of blind patriotism rather than duty to friends family and country.



It's not about patriotism. It's about respect.



Respect for whom, oneself, ones country or respect for the country you have aggressively invaded.

Nothing to do with respect only rabid blind patriotism of the worse possible kind.
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Post by Ahso! »

My personal meaning behind "blind patriotism" is that Americans have become blind to their patriotism. I think Lar's post exemplifies it. The word respect is merely a justification AFAICT.

There must come a point when we Americans cease speaking out of both sides of our mouth. If a war is wrong, it's wrong, and those who choose to volunteer for such wars are as wrong about it as those who declare it. For the volunteers of the armed forces who were there when the war started theres a case to be made that early on ignorance can be claimed, but by the time 2005 rolled around there was no doubt as to the illegality and irresponsibility of the war. Still, retention and enlistment remained high. No way should I respect people for volunteering to fight a war that was known to be as unjustified as this one was.

The real reason we went into Iraq was to give America enough time to pass the Patriot Act and begin to increase security in airports, on bridges and at nuclear sites. Because Afghanistan proved to not be enough of a magnet for al qaeda we changed the venue to Iraq. When that didn't attract al qaeda, the Bush administration and the state department redefined the purpose of the war and began drone attacks into Pakistan and elsewhere. Of course, we needed to bullshit our way into Iraq in the first place.

Supporting the troops is supporting the war without saying it, that's all that is. It's a way for republicans who disguise themselves as democrats try to get away with explaining nonexistent differences.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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Be the wave that I am and then

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Blind patriotism......the thread

Post by flopstock »

You folks are just full of crap on this.

It needed saying.

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