These Colors Don’t Run.

Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Post by koan »

I find it intriguing that Ahso is being called a troll in connection to his apparent trend of talking like spot. Ok. I don't find it intriguing. I find it hilarious.

Sometimes someone has an unpopular opinion and they, for one of many possible reasons, decide they have to voice it. I'm all for freedom of speech. I'm very much against bashing down those who say something that offends you. Offensive points of view should be a challenge. When it ceases to be interesting you stop replying. There's no book that says you have to get your opponent to admit defeat to feel successful.

Anyway, back to topic... I disagreed with the OP assessment that the soldiers made the world a better place. I don't think it helps anyone to pat them on the back and call them heros because we are ashamed that they were asked to die for an unworthy cause. But even if they aren't heros they aren't criminals. They are people who's lives have value and I think asking them to risk it for such a terrible fraud was criminal. I think they need to be told that their lives are worth more than that and that we want to change the politics of war so no one else is ever put at risk without just cause.

If we tell them they did good we put more people at risk by approving. But they didn't do bad. They did what they thought they had to do. There are other people who need to be held responsible for the lies.
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Post by koan »

Bruv;1379014 wrote: ....................the number of dead Iraqis..................



That's an extremely low count as they only counted those with multiple sources of confirmation.
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Post by Ahso! »

koan;1379033 wrote: If we tell them they did good we put more people at risk by approving. But they didn't do bad. They did what they thought they had to do. There are other people who need to be held responsible for the lies.
But the lies were evident from the get-go because we had nearly the rest of the entire world showing us the evidence, or lack of. But, okay, I'll go along with the idea that for the first year or two our people couldn't have known for sure, however, that argument fails thereafter. So, I think it's safe to say that anyone who volunteered for military service in the U.S. after the end of 2004 coulda, woulda, shoulda known better had they wanted to. I doubt wanting to know better is the issue though because I believe racism and religious competition played a huge role in this from the very beginning.

With that in mind, giving the soldier a reprieve while condemning the leadership is erroneous. There comes a point in this story where everyone should recognize their own responsibility and own up to it.

If the American people are to acquiescence to the excuse that following orders is a relevant defense then we must also recognize that for the other side. Any Americans want to forgive the 9/11 hijackers?

That's strange! Who would be knocking at this hour?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

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Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

koan;1379034 wrote: That's an extremely low count as they only counted those with multiple sources of confirmation.



Low as in under estimated or conservative, not low by the amount of deaths.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Post by Bruv »

koan;1379033 wrote:

Sometimes someone has an unpopular opinion and they, for one of many possible reasons, decide they have to voice it. I'm all for freedom of speech. I'm very much against bashing down those who say something that offends you.




I agree with you entirely.

My only objection is that commenting in a thread dedicated to honouring war dead, seems to me to be like entering a church on Christmas day and questioning the congregations belief, akin to the images I have seen of the nutters from Westboro holding up banners praising the Lord for the deaths of returning soldiers at their funerals.

Not the right place, not the right time.

Why not start another thread ?

Maybe I am strange.............
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Post by Ahso! »

Bruv;1379046 wrote: I agree with you entirely.

My only objection is that commenting in a thread dedicated to honouring war dead, seems to me to be like entering a church on Christmas day and questioning the congregations belief, akin to the images I have seen of the nutters from Westboro holding up banners praising the Lord for the deaths of returning soldiers at their funerals.

Not the right place, not the right time.

Why not start another thread ?

Maybe I am strange.............
Where do you get this notion? Perhaps you should reread the OP. Or maybe you are strange indeed.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by Snooz »

You seem to have a lot invested in this subject, Ahso. Perhaps you should start your own thread explaining in detail what you feel about this and why, rather than harrying the members that actually respect the troops.
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Post by Ahso! »

SnoozeAgain;1379066 wrote: You seem to have a lot invested in this subject, Ahso. Perhaps you should start your own thread explaining in detail what you feel about this and why, rather than harrying the members that actually respect the troops.
I can respect people, troops or otherwise. Your problem is you don't have a leg to stand on. Like I said, hit your "like" button and move on but stop trying to silence dissenting voices. Are you certain you're not Ann Coulter incognito?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by Ahso! »

For anyone else who needs to be reminded: this thread is about unabashed blind patriotism.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by Snooz »

If I'm trying to "silence dissenting voices", why did I suggest you start a thread on the subject? You've gone way beyond just trying to make a point, you're bullying anyone that dares to disagree with you.
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Post by Ahso! »

SnoozeAgain;1379071 wrote: If I'm trying to "silence dissenting voices", why did I suggest you start a thread on the subject? You've gone way beyond just trying to make a point, you're bullying anyone that dares to disagree with you.
A new strategy of ad hominem attacks, snooze? When you find yourself in a position where you have no moral grounds on which to stand, it's best to recognize that fact and consider rethinking things. Either get relevant or go talk cats or something.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by Snooz »

Ahso!;1379073 wrote: A new strategy of ad hominem attacks, snooze? When you find yourself in a position where you have no moral grounds on which to stand, it's best to recognize that fact and consider rethinking things. Either get relevant or go talk cats or something.



Thank you for proving my point.
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Post by Ahso! »

SnoozeAgain;1379076 wrote: Thank you for proving my point.
No Problem
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by Accountable »

Ahso!;1379073 wrote: A new strategy of ad hominem attacks, snooze? When you find yourself in a position where you have no moral grounds on which to stand, it's best to recognize that fact and consider rethinking things. Either get relevant or go talk cats or something.



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Post by Ahso! »

That's it? That's all you've got?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by koan »

Bruv;1379044 wrote: Low as in under estimated or conservative, not low by the amount of deaths.



Right, low as in conservative. A recent comparison I heard had four different estimates all differing by hundreds of thousands. IBC was the lowest of the counts.
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Post by Ahso! »

koan;1379093 wrote: Right, low as in conservative. A recent comparison I heard had four different estimates all differing by hundreds of thousands. IBC was the lowest of the counts.
Ron Paul makes the claim that it's been one million, give or take a few.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by koan »

A lot of really intelligent, moral, good people end up in abusive relationships. They start out wonderful, supportive, generous and exciting and slowly transform into manipulative, degrading, and abusive. The victim (soldiers) shouldn't be blamed because they trusted the wrong people.

There are a lot of good people who believe things other would find insane. Lizard people. A personified God. That you need to put olive oil in the water when making pasta... you name it the list is endless.

If someone believes what they are doing is honest, moral, and heroic they can hardly be criticised for taking action. Sure some soldiers have shown a desire to kill and pillage but they are few. They make the others look bad but they don't represent the group.
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Post by Snooz »

koan;1379095 wrote: A lot of really intelligent, moral, good people end up in abusive relationships. They start out wonderful, supportive, generous and exciting and slowly transform into manipulative, degrading, and abusive. The victim (soldiers) shouldn't be blamed because they trusted the wrong people.

There are a lot of good people who believe things other would find insane. Lizard people. A personified God. That you need to put olive oil in the water when making pasta... you name it the list is endless.

If someone believes what they are doing is honest, moral, and heroic they can hardly be criticised for taking action. Sure some soldiers have shown a desire to kill and pillage but they are few. They make the others look bad but they don't represent the group.



Thank you.

(Lizard people?)
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Post by Ahso! »

koan;1379095 wrote: A lot of really intelligent, moral, good people end up in abusive relationships. They start out wonderful, supportive, generous and exciting and slowly transform into manipulative, degrading, and abusive. The victim (soldiers) shouldn't be blamed because they trusted the wrong people.

There are a lot of good people who believe things other would find insane. Lizard people. A personified God. That you need to put olive oil in the water when making pasta... you name it the list is endless.

If someone believes what they are doing is honest, moral, and heroic they can hardly be criticised for taking action. Sure some soldiers have shown a desire to kill and pillage but they are few. They make the others look bad but they don't represent the group.
The olive oil in pasta water is essential, you immoral person.

The U.S. military boasts the fact that over the past 40 years it's "quality" of personnel, including enlisted personnel has steadily increased in intellect. As opposed to earlier war times, these people are not uneducated and are screened more throughly mentally as well as emotionally. Most of them are decision makers of their own. I can agree that they've been conditioned slowly over the years as I said in an earlier post to think in terms of blind patriotism. The good news is that out of all the young Americans of service age of between say 18 and 25, only a rather small overall percentage do volunteer.

Since I'm a father of 5 between the ages of 23 and 32, I've asked several young people I've been exposed to why they haven't enlisted in the military and most have said they disagree with it and the wars. Now, if these young people are aware enough not to want to be a part of this stuff, why should anyone believe those who do volunteer aren't as aware of their decision?

Recruit Quality Remains High
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by koan »

It seems you expect everyone in the world to think the same way and always come to the same conclusions if they have the same IQ.
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Post by Ahso! »

koan;1379101 wrote: It seems you expect everyone in the world to think the same way and always come to the same conclusions if they have the same IQ.
Is that due to the olive oil comment? (kidding)

No, I assume the young people I've spoken to are equal in intellect as those who join. My point is that the lack of engagement by parents and others who raise these kids to throughly think through this decision by playing the devils advocate in many cases is part of the problem. My other point is that conservatives and christians have encouraged these people to go fight the good fight, so, in a sense I do agree with what you've said, but I doubt most of it is due to abuse, I believe indoctrination plays a larger role.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by Ahso! »

Whether or not indoctrination is abuse is worth exploring, but that's a different thread.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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koan
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Post by koan »

Ahso!;1379102 wrote: Is that due to the olive oil comment? (kidding)

No, I assume the young people I've spoken to are equal in intellect as those who join. My point is that the lack of engagement by parents and others who raise these kids to throughly think through this decision by playing the devils advocate in many cases is part of the problem. My other point is that conservatives and christians have encouraged these people to go fight the good fight, so, in a sense I do agree with what you've said, but I doubt most of it is due to abuse, I believe indoctrination plays a larger role.

Putting another person in mortal danger to fulfill a personal ambition is quite definitely abusive.
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Post by Ahso! »

koan;1379111 wrote: Putting another person in mortal danger to fulfill a personal ambition is quite definitely abusive.
Yes, most people tend to abuse power. But I'm not sure where suggesting military members be encouraged to accept responsibility for for their decisions and actions conflicts with this. Some people may be victims, I won't deny that, but the military apparatus has been busy over the years trying to weed those individuals out. Take a look at the link I provided earlier and get an idea of the mindset of the U.S. military.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean


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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1379127 wrote: Take a look at the link I provided earlier and get an idea of the mindset of the U.S. military.

You should try working for Nick Griffin.... you lot are kittycats In comparison.
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