Agood rundown of Israels debacle.
Agood rundown of Israels debacle.
Thats an intersting and informative thread, probably mostly true as well. But I would say is that in looking at this as an outsider, I don't see what hezbollah have to feel so smug about. Whatever was the military verdict, their actions and policy were directly responsible for plunging the country that they claim to be "defending" against israel into a direct conflict with israel, that ended up with huge damage being done to the country's economy, infrastructure and society as well as the more than 1,000 lebanese civilians who died and the hundreds of israeli citizens who were blown to bits. For that fact, both hezbollah and israel should take pause to thought about what they have done, the actual government of lebanon (who are not actually hezbollah) didn't want or deserve any of this. I'm not sure that some sort of nebulous "victory" over Israel is actually much comfort to anyone except to armchair militarists, violent islamists, and their apologists. Particularly the poor sods whos relatives and friends were killed (not many hezbollah fighters were actually killed as usual). If this is a "victory" for hezbollah, I wonder how costly a "victory" for al-queda over the U.S would be for muslims everywhere, well not that extremists care much what effect their actions have on anyone, enemies or supposed supporters.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Agood rundown of Israels debacle.
Very good points Gal, one and all. There is something afoot in the Israeli populace also. The people were far less than cooperative in general than we are being lead to believe. The attitude was one more of resignation and ambivalence that patriotic fervor. With of course the exception of the headbangers.
I do disagree with your perception about Hezbollah. They do control a large part of the government there AND THEY WERE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED TO THEIR POSTS. There is a reason for this. Israeli predations and aggression.
Yes, I understand that hezbollah have a lot of support in south lebabon and beirut and have been elected into parliament in Lebannon, but that doesn't actually automatically give them the right to make decisions that would plunge everyone in lebanon into a conflict. The IRA always tried to claim that right on behalf of everyone in Ireland based on history, and the Irish government put them under no illusions about who governed Ireland, and it wasn't the IRA. If that were the case in Britain the Lib Dems would be perfectly at rights to throw some grenades at calais in France.
The provocation of Hezbollah was nothing more than business as usual for both sides. They both cross the border on raids and both do so often. The initial aggressions between the 2 combatants lead to the realization of the failed strategy Israel was using. This lead to an escalation against the infrastructure of Lebanon which cost the lives of civilians and billions in damage to Lebanese infrastructure, not the original incursion which Israel used to start the conflict.
Hezbollah should have known what the consequences of their actions might be, you cannont claim be to be defenders of a country if you subsequently abbrogate yourself of all responsibility. That doesn't excuse the killing of civilians by Israel by any means either.
Isreal could have went to the peace table also, but chose not to. Any military strategist could tell you destroying civilian infrastructure does little to hurt the warmaking capacity of a country. They leveled a good part of southern Beirut to get a TV antenna but the Lebanese channel never missed a broadcast. They leveld bridges and overpasses but failed to realize that Hezbollah didn't need them. Military vehicles are designed to go over rough terrain and the Urals the Hezbollah used are made for just such a thing.
Israel has always used military responses to things it percieves as threats to itself, in one way its understandable, in another its not. But again, knowing the Israelis like they do, I can't see how they can claim that they didn't realize that kidnapping the Israeli soliders would not provoke a response, though perhaps they did not fully understand the scale, they are being disingenuous after the fact to make themselevs look good. But everyone does that I suppose.
I can go on but its pointless. Keep in mind why this happened, go back further and ask yourself who has been stealing land from whom for the last 60 years. The Arabs are going to fight back and have a right to do it.
Yes, and the Jews are going to fight them back, and so this conflict will go on and on. I don't doubt that a huge injustice has been done to the palestinians through the creation of Israel, but whats done is done. The sudenten germans are not going to get the west part of the Czech republic back, and Prussians are not going to get East Prussia back. Its simply a case that at some point, unless Israel is destroyed, Arabs are going to have to compromise on the fact that it exists, just as in Israelis are going to have to accept that they are at some point going to have to give the palestinians the freedom to have a proper functioning state. None of them like the reality, but thats what they are going to have to deal with unless they want another 58 years of violence, rerimination, and conflict. Maybe they prefer it that way, thats up to them.
I do disagree with your perception about Hezbollah. They do control a large part of the government there AND THEY WERE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED TO THEIR POSTS. There is a reason for this. Israeli predations and aggression.
Yes, I understand that hezbollah have a lot of support in south lebabon and beirut and have been elected into parliament in Lebannon, but that doesn't actually automatically give them the right to make decisions that would plunge everyone in lebanon into a conflict. The IRA always tried to claim that right on behalf of everyone in Ireland based on history, and the Irish government put them under no illusions about who governed Ireland, and it wasn't the IRA. If that were the case in Britain the Lib Dems would be perfectly at rights to throw some grenades at calais in France.
The provocation of Hezbollah was nothing more than business as usual for both sides. They both cross the border on raids and both do so often. The initial aggressions between the 2 combatants lead to the realization of the failed strategy Israel was using. This lead to an escalation against the infrastructure of Lebanon which cost the lives of civilians and billions in damage to Lebanese infrastructure, not the original incursion which Israel used to start the conflict.
Hezbollah should have known what the consequences of their actions might be, you cannont claim be to be defenders of a country if you subsequently abbrogate yourself of all responsibility. That doesn't excuse the killing of civilians by Israel by any means either.
Isreal could have went to the peace table also, but chose not to. Any military strategist could tell you destroying civilian infrastructure does little to hurt the warmaking capacity of a country. They leveled a good part of southern Beirut to get a TV antenna but the Lebanese channel never missed a broadcast. They leveld bridges and overpasses but failed to realize that Hezbollah didn't need them. Military vehicles are designed to go over rough terrain and the Urals the Hezbollah used are made for just such a thing.
Israel has always used military responses to things it percieves as threats to itself, in one way its understandable, in another its not. But again, knowing the Israelis like they do, I can't see how they can claim that they didn't realize that kidnapping the Israeli soliders would not provoke a response, though perhaps they did not fully understand the scale, they are being disingenuous after the fact to make themselevs look good. But everyone does that I suppose.
I can go on but its pointless. Keep in mind why this happened, go back further and ask yourself who has been stealing land from whom for the last 60 years. The Arabs are going to fight back and have a right to do it.
Yes, and the Jews are going to fight them back, and so this conflict will go on and on. I don't doubt that a huge injustice has been done to the palestinians through the creation of Israel, but whats done is done. The sudenten germans are not going to get the west part of the Czech republic back, and Prussians are not going to get East Prussia back. Its simply a case that at some point, unless Israel is destroyed, Arabs are going to have to compromise on the fact that it exists, just as in Israelis are going to have to accept that they are at some point going to have to give the palestinians the freedom to have a proper functioning state. None of them like the reality, but thats what they are going to have to deal with unless they want another 58 years of violence, rerimination, and conflict. Maybe they prefer it that way, thats up to them.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.