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FG
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Post by FG »

This is advance warning that as of the New Year, we're minded that subscribing members will be enabled (and encouraged) to discuss all new threads started by members who press the Report Post triangle, and that they may recommend or demand or reject the very idea of a warning, infraction or brief timeout for the offender. If they decide there is an offender, which they might not.

In order to inform their discussion, we're likely to make the site's warning and infraction history visible to subscribing members. On a profile tab.

If anyone has an instant and abiding disagreement with this proposal perhaps they'd like to say so here in the very near future.


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chonsigirl
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Post by chonsigirl »

FG;1348668 wrote: This is advance warning that as of the New Year, we're minded that subscribing members will be enabled (and encouraged) to discuss all new threads started by members who press the Report Post triangle, and that they may recommend or demand or reject the very idea of a warning, infraction or brief timeout for the offender. If they decide there is an offender, which they might not.What will we do if there is not agreement, and they start to argue themselves?

In order to inform their discussion, we're likely to make the site's warning and infraction history visible to subscribing members. On a profile tab. As long as it does not contain any personal information-like so-and-so made threats to so-and-so

If anyone has an instant and abiding disagreement with this proposal perhaps they'd like to say so here in the very near future....
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Post by FG »

chonsigirl;1348670 wrote: What will we do if there is not agreement, and they start to argue themselves?I may not speak for everyone when I say this but personally I shall pour a stiff whiskey and laugh long and loud enough to annoy the neighbours. Finally, I shall say to myself, finally the hoi polloi discovers the realities of moderation. At which point, dear chonsi, you and I and a couple of like-minded confederates in crime will decide on their behalf and remind ourselves of the way things used to be. Though [adopting a suitably pious tone] we hope it would never come to that.



As long as it does not contain any personal information-like so-and-so made threats to so-and-soNo, the profile tab records the description and date and pointcount of the warning or infraction but not the ream of sworn evidential testimony which led up to it.


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CARLA
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Post by CARLA »

Good idea we will work out the issues as they arise. :)
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WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"

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Post by chonsigirl »

:) Sounds good spot! First drink is on me!
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Post by Ahso! »

First rule: no fraternizing.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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flopstock
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Post by flopstock »

Here's a question I'll ask so that members don't have to worry that others think they have something to hide...

Are we starting with NEW reports only? I ask because prior to this, folks were assured of their anonymity in reporting. I don't think they'd mind the spam reports being shared, but may be uncomfortable being outed on what they may have considered a 'quiet word in our ear'.:thinking:

So when you say 'new', that means that no old ones are available for view, correct?
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

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Post by FG »

Definitely. I've even started clearing down the reports into a history area. I stopped because I can't get Update Counters to recognize my authority.

When it opens for business there'll be no threads in it started before New Years Day.


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CARLA
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Post by CARLA »

Good question Floppy and glad to see it is on NEW from 1-1-2011 that will be involved. :)
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WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"

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Kathy Ellen
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

CARLA;1348708 wrote: Good question Floppy and glad to see it is on NEW from 1-1-2011 that will be involved. :)


Yes, a new year and a fresh start for everyone:-6
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chonsigirl
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Post by chonsigirl »

FG;1348700 wrote: Definitely. I've even started clearing down the reports into a history area. I stopped because I can't get Update Counters to recognize my authority. Give them detention!

...
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Post by Saint_ »

FG;1348668 wrote: This is advance warning that as of the New Year, we're minded that subscribing members will be enabled (and encouraged) to discuss all new threads started by members who press the Report Post triangle, and that they may recommend or demand or reject the very idea of a warning, infraction or brief timeout for the offender. If they decide there is an offender, which they might not.

In order to inform their discussion, we're likely to make the site's warning and infraction history visible to subscribing members. On a profile tab.

If anyone has an instant and abiding disagreement with this proposal perhaps they'd like to say so here in the very near future.


Ummmm...huh? Could you put that in a bit more common language? That is one of the most confusing posts I've ever read. Are you giving the "bad" people a Scarlet Letter on their foreheads? Holding their past against them? Are you turning everyone who subscribes into a mod? Will controversial threads therefore be banned if a single member objects to them? Because a certain amount of modding is a great thing, but too much will kill a forum.

Talking about nothing but the weather gets old fast.
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Post by Saint_ »

I object to this thread! :D
koan
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Post by koan »

Saint_;1348748 wrote: Ummmm...huh? Could you put that in a bit more common language? That is one of the most confusing posts I've ever read. Are you giving the "bad" people a Scarlet Letter on their foreheads? Holding their past against them? Are you turning everyone who subscribes into a mod? Will controversial threads therefore be banned if a single member objects to them? Because a certain amount of modding is a great thing, but too much will kill a forum.

Talking about nothing but the weather gets old fast.
Good questions, those.

I believe it's a social experiment.

FG used to be member moderated and it worked to some extent. It's like gang warfare without the guns. :wah:

This, if I understand correctly, will be like the member moderated site but with actual moderators handling the results instead of one site owner having to field multiple conflicts on his own. I think that's what is on the slate. I might be wrong.
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Post by spot »

Saint_;1348748 wrote: Ummmm...huh? Could you put that in a bit more common language? That is one of the most confusing posts I've ever read. Are you giving the "bad" people a Scarlet Letter on their foreheads? Holding their past against them? Are you turning everyone who subscribes into a mod? Will controversial threads therefore be banned if a single member objects to them? Because a certain amount of modding is a great thing, but too much will kill a forum.

Talking about nothing but the weather gets old fast.


There's a triangle at the bottom of all posts. It's called the Report Post triangle. Click it and you get a screen asking why you want to report that post. If you give it a reason it'll create a thread in a hidden part of the site called (almost) the Reported Post area.

At the moment only Moderators can read those threads, and anything they say (along with the reason for the report itself) is treated as confidential. This means that the reporter's annoyed at not knowing what's said, the person who wrote the reported post is annoyed at not having had a right of reply, it's all messy.

We're devolving the system to the Supporting Members so that the report and the discussion become public property instead of an enshrouded Moderator mystery. When the Supporting Members decide what's best for the site, the Moderators will action any executive request they make. That's just to isolate all the private information to a trusted core group.

It's a chore, deciding what to do with Reported Posts. We're just making the decision-making more transparent.
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ZAP
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Post by ZAP »

Saint_;1348749 wrote: I object to this thread! :D


I object to your objection, instantly and abidingly. :-6
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Woah!!! hold up !!! I've been on this forum for four years . What you've seen in the past from me is what you get in the future . Some get my humour others don't ...So what you're saying is - If people don't subscribe to this forum they have no say in an important matter ......What if the tables are turned on that particular person and they have more peeps that laugh about their topic 'that aren't subscribers' than those who are? What if those who don't subscribe think nothing is actually wrong with a post? You're forcing peeps to subscribe to have a voice?
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Post by koan »

It will open the reported posts to more commentary but it won't give paying members the ability to give infractions. My guess is that it will just go to show how democracy works.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Which country's democracy? Who's interpretation?
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Post by koan »

fuzzywuzzy;1348816 wrote: Which country's democracy? Who's interpretation?


hehe

hohoho

I'm laughing with you, not at you.



It's really not something that any person who will not have access to the proposed new forum area has addressed until now. Thank you for expressing your concerns. :) That's pretty much why this announcement is being made.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Yeah I know . lol
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Post by FG »

All done, are we? Everyone's tickety-boo?


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Post by FG »

I might, possibly and if pressed, step back very slightly from "When the Supporting Members decide what's best for the site, the Moderators will action any executive request they make", it sounds very absolute. Half the fun of giving it a try is to see whether we can all finally behave nicely.

As for "You're forcing peeps to subscribe to have a voice?", it's a step on from the feudal top-down state we've grown up with. It's a bit like Simon de Montfort summoning the first parliament, you don't really expect to find peddlers among the representatives. What I've not heard yet are shouts demanding that all registered members should get access and discuss reported posts. I think it's reasonable to at least start out with the system as it's been described and see how it beds in.


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Post by LarsMac »

I'm good.
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FG
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Post by FG »

LarsMac;1348846 wrote: I'm good.That's not for you to decide, that's what the Committee of Public Safety is for. Present yourself for self-denunciation at the next session, citizen.


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Post by koan »

FG;1348833 wrote: What I've not heard yet are shouts demanding that all registered members should get access and discuss reported posts.


Really? That's what I thought fuzzywuzzy wuz saying.
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Post by spot »

koan;1348865 wrote: Really? That's what I thought fuzzywuzzy wuz saying.


I thought she was postulating an extremely remote hypothetical circumstance so far beyond normal experience as to never be expected in a month of Sundays. Why on earth would the Subscribing Members differ in opinion and attitude to such a huge extent as she's considering? It seems far less plausible to me than that the moderators, say, would have such a different outlook. In which case, should it be seriously put forward as an argument, I'd say we're at least making significant progress in our hunt for Shangri La.
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koan
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Post by koan »

Regardless of whether or not she's worded it in a reasonable way, I didn't think it right to pretend she hadn't said it. :)
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Post by spot »

koan;1348869 wrote: Regardless of whether or not she's worded it in a reasonable way, I didn't think it right to pretend she hadn't said it. :)


It's worded in an exemplary fashion, reason exudes from her wording in vasty dollops. I merely questioned the probability of her scenario in a "pigs might fly" sense.
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Post by LarsMac »

I am sure that are non-supporting registered users who feel the need to have a say, and there are supporting members who won't really care.

But you have to draw a line somewhere.
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Post by koan »

Opening reports is an expansion of input from the currently available voices. Only one person objected. Seems fair enough to say the motion passed with majority approval.
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Post by FG »

koan;1348877 wrote: Opening reports is an expansion of input from the currently available voices. Only one person objected. Seems fair enough to say the motion passed with majority approval.You know, there's times when you sound like a union shop steward from a late sixties car plant.


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Post by koan »

FG;1348881 wrote: You know, there's times when you sound like a union shop steward from a late sixties car plant.


Actually that's how union shop stewards still sound.
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Post by LarsMac »

Just wait til everyone gets back from holiday and sobers up.
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Post by ZAP »

So did you have a vote on something? Who gets to vote? I notice that I am a "Premium" member. What does that mean? I used to be a "Supporting" member. What did that mean? Did I get an upgrade or a downgrade? Why? How? (Forgive all the questions but I've spent the last 10 days with an 8 year old boy and . . . .)
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Post by FG »

Moderator required on aisle six please.


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Post by Snowfire »

Champagne all round. Vasty dollops of it
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

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FG
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Post by FG »

So, here's my current version of the announcement.



We're starting the New Year with a modified system of reporting posts.

In the past, reported posts have been seen and discussed only by moderators. This has been criticized for lacking transparency to the reporter, to the author of the reported post and to the site as a whole, in that moderators are pledged to confidentiality about discussions in the moderator area.

With the new system, reported posts are now seen by all supporting members, any of whom may discuss them inside the Reported Posts area to which they now have access. While they do not yet have access to the moderator warning and infraction controls, any recommendation on warning or infraction can be expected to be acted on and will also be seen. Supporting members are expected as a matter of courtesy not to copy a discussion elsewhere.

The warning and infraction system has been toned down in an attempt to make it more usable in this new environment. All infractions now expire. Three active minor or one major infraction triggers at most a three-day suspension during which a user account cannot log in.

In order that nobody is prejudicially affected by the difference between this new approach and the old, all existing bans have been revoked bar those on ten ex-members which, rightly or wrongly, the site's Administrators regard as advisable to retain for the time being for legal reasons. Any member wondering whether they're one of the ten can try logging their old account in to find out. If the account no longer exists then you're welcome to re-register it but you're not one of the ten; if you can't remember your password please click "Contact Us" with your old username and current email address to be reset; and if you can log in and post then you're in the clear.

We regret having carelessly lost a small number of accounts over the years through deletion, those are the ones which would need re-registering in order to use again. We also note that a few posters have accumulated several usernames. Please restrict yourself to one of them, the old rule against using more than one account concurrently still exists. Nobody will be penalized merely for having registered several accounts in the past.


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FG
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Post by FG »

[post temporarily being reworked]


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Post by Ahso! »

Sounds fair to me.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by FG »

And here's the 2011 warning and infraction list. DO NOT:




harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest: penalty TWO points for THREE days

apparently breach copyright, in the opinion of a moderator: penalty TWO points for THREE days

impersonate anyone, misrepresent yourself or connect through a voluntary browser-anonymising (so-called "proxy") server: penalty TWO points for THREE days

solicit funds or payments for any reason - whether commercial or charitable or otherwise - on behalf of yourself, an organization of any kind, or any other person: penalty TWO points for THREE days

post primarily to promote a website, forum, email address, business or MLM that you appear, in the opinion of a moderator, to be paid to advertise.: penalty TWO points for THREE days

return Compost to the Main Forum: penalty TWO points for THREE days

post threatening, racist, sexist or otherwise unwelcome material as deemed by a moderator, including text and links in your signature, profile, bookmarks as well as posted images, photos and avatars: penalty TWO points for THREE days

double post or cross-post in multiple forums or mass-PM or mass-email or chase a higher post count: penalty TWO points for THREE days

post inappropriate language or graphic: some members use this site at work: penalty TWO points for THREE days

post with the apparent purpose of starting a fight with a particular member. This includes messages in profiles and signatures.: penalty TWO points for THREE days

engage in baiting, threatening, insulting, or disruptive behavior to an extent which affects another user's ability to engage in forum discussions: penalty FOUR points for THREE days

post material potentially detrimental to the wellbeing of minors: penalty SIX points for THREE days

operate multiple accounts without written authority: penalty SIX points for THREE days

stalk or harass across sites or gather personal information: penalty SIX points for THREE days




Accumulating SIX unexpired points results in a maximum of a THREE DAY login suspension.


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Post by G#Gill »

Are there any plans to bring in similar punishments for moderators who contravene these rules? Because moderators are human beings with human being failings, they are members first and moderators second, and in my opinion I think there should be a similar list of punishments for moderators, to demonstrate to all the membership that moderators are not 'above the law'.

By the way, what happened to the very first 'rule' brought in by Tombstone a few months ago, concerning 'be civil' ?



Also, IMO, I do not think the punishments will put anybody off being nasty or a pain in the nether regions. After all what is three days ? Everything seems to be three days, even offences which may affect children. What was wrong with just re-instating the old punishments?
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;1348973 wrote: Are there any plans to bring in similar punishments for moderators who contravene these rules?No. Moderators speak and act on behalf of the site and as such whatever they say or do is authorized. That responsibility is itself sufficient to mute their otherwise acerbic tongue and lashing wit. Anything posted by a moderator which appears to contravene the Terms and Conditions does so only in the mind of the reader, it's a misreading. Moderators are not human beings with human being failings, they are a Priesthood set aside by God for the continuance of good order and civility on the board. Civility, by the way, probably falls under "Do not post inappropriate language".

There is actually another way to look at this. The moderators are perfectly normal posters who also, because they're trusted with controls and private information by the owner, carry a mop and bucket with them. Exercising their janitorial duties annoys some posters. One measure of the site's protection for the moderators is to isolate them from the warnings and infractions system, in exchange for which they're at least nominally on their best behaviour at all times. Some posters see the posts of some moderators as posts which, if made by a non-moderator, would warrant a warning or infraction. The problem lies in their own interpretation. A cry of "hey, not fair" might get an apology, but nothing's going to get a moderator warned or infracted - for one thing the controls don't allow it, as you well know from having been there.

Everything seems to be three days, even offences which may affect children. What was wrong with just re-instating the old punishments?"Offences", in this context, is a sad word. We're not talking legally criminal. If we think anyone's legally criminal in any way on FG we immediately call in the police.

Three days is quite long enough to decide whether to escalate a moderator-imposed suspension into an owner-imposed site ban, which is always there as a final resort and always will be though it's not, you'll notice, any longer a moderator-imposed site ban. Three days is also long enough to bring most rational posters to their senses and induce enough remorse and contrition in their breasts that they change their behaviour. A month is cruel and unusual.
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Did something happen to FG during the last hour. I couldn't log on and thought I was banned:wah:
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Now I can't log onto anyone's profile to send a pm. Is it my computer acting up I wonder?
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Post by Betty Boop »

I'm still having problems, now and again I can't get anything but a white screen, if it does load it takes forever.
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Post by LarsMac »

It was hung up for a while.

Still seems a bit of a lag.
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Post by chonsigirl »

Yes, I have also noticed a definite lag time loading pages lately.
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Betty Boop;1349039 wrote: I'm still having problems, now and again I can't get anything but a white screen, if it does load it takes forever.


Ahhh, thought it was my computer. Hope FG rights itself....
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Post by LarsMac »

Wonder if the servers are in an area affected by the inclement weather.
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