I couldn't let it pass without some comment. It would be hilarious if it weren't so serious.
Trump can't cope with democratic leaders but he seems to do better with dictators. Maybe he'll get somewhere with Kim, who might just be trying to get out alive with his fortune. They have a lot in common after all - total corruption being the main thing.
It's noticeable that after 100 years of revolution and oppression, Russia has ended up with a Czar again and China has regained an Emperor. America seems to feel left out and is trying for an Absolute Monarch and England is trying to become a Stone Age theme park with Jane Austen enclaves.
Exciting times.
Well, that was an interesting G7
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519542 wrote: They have a lot in common after all - total corruption being the main thing.
You forgot, a total lack of compassion, empathy, or humanity, complete selfishness, immoral and amoral standards, and they're both total a$$holes.
It's noticeable that after 100 years of revolution and oppression, Russia has ended up with a Czar again and China has regained an Emperor. America seems to feel left out and is trying for an Absolute Monarch and England is trying to become a Stone Age theme park with Jane Austen enclaves.
lol. Stop that. You're ruining my morning.
You forgot, a total lack of compassion, empathy, or humanity, complete selfishness, immoral and amoral standards, and they're both total a$$holes.
It's noticeable that after 100 years of revolution and oppression, Russia has ended up with a Czar again and China has regained an Emperor. America seems to feel left out and is trying for an Absolute Monarch and England is trying to become a Stone Age theme park with Jane Austen enclaves.
lol. Stop that. You're ruining my morning.
Well, that was an interesting G7
What's the matter with Jane Austen ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Bruv;1519546 wrote: What's the matter with Jane Austen ?
Nothing. I'm trying to be positive.
You forgot, a total lack of compassion, empathy, or humanity, complete selfishness, immoral and amoral standards, and they're both total a$$holes.
chuckle. Yes, Mr Teacher, Sir! Agree completely, btw.
Nothing. I'm trying to be positive.
You forgot, a total lack of compassion, empathy, or humanity, complete selfishness, immoral and amoral standards, and they're both total a$$holes.
chuckle. Yes, Mr Teacher, Sir! Agree completely, btw.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
and what of the court jester from Canada?
�You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.�
― Mae West
― Mae West
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
He's coming over as sane, civilised and keeping his head when all around are losing theirs. I gather he has a reputation of being all touchy-feely and softly-softly but he has shown some steel over the tariffs (sorry...) and compared with the UK or US at present - wanna swap leaders?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Apparently Trump now believes the World can sleep more soundly because he has denuclearised the Korean Peninsular.
He's just left Pompeo behind to dot a few i's and cross a few t's, but basically His Majesty King Donald I of the United Kingdoms of America has single-handedly denuclearised N.Korea. I have a genuine suspicion that if he doesn't already believe that he will do by the end of the weekend.
Traditionally, a brief and successful foreign war sets him up to deal with over-mighty subjects back home like that Mueller guy. Who does he think he is, investigating the King of America? Support will have solidified with his core vote and he'll have silenced a few waverers. Suggest Mueller starts digging, if he hasn't already got a pretty good all-round defence.
Of course, this depends on dealing with inconvenient questions like, "What guarantee do we have that the N.Koreans really will denuclearise this time unlike the previous times?" But he has what are now completely convincing answers since he has been there and done it: "Trust me," and "Well, there has been a complete change of regime - the President has changed, the Secretary of State has changed..." (Yeah, but which country was he talking about? Korea or USA?)
He's just left Pompeo behind to dot a few i's and cross a few t's, but basically His Majesty King Donald I of the United Kingdoms of America has single-handedly denuclearised N.Korea. I have a genuine suspicion that if he doesn't already believe that he will do by the end of the weekend.
Traditionally, a brief and successful foreign war sets him up to deal with over-mighty subjects back home like that Mueller guy. Who does he think he is, investigating the King of America? Support will have solidified with his core vote and he'll have silenced a few waverers. Suggest Mueller starts digging, if he hasn't already got a pretty good all-round defence.
Of course, this depends on dealing with inconvenient questions like, "What guarantee do we have that the N.Koreans really will denuclearise this time unlike the previous times?" But he has what are now completely convincing answers since he has been there and done it: "Trust me," and "Well, there has been a complete change of regime - the President has changed, the Secretary of State has changed..." (Yeah, but which country was he talking about? Korea or USA?)
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Soon trumo will be coming to the uk. The canadians shook his hand the french kissed his cheek theres may hekd his hand I hate to think what part of his anatomy what our ex public schoolboy brexiteers will kiss in order to get a trade deal.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
It seems to me increasingly difficult to tell which way up Liar Johnson really is. More and more what's above the collar looks like a couple of arse cheeks. So I'm not sure it really matters.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519590 wrote: It seems to me increasingly difficult to tell which way up Liar Johnson really is. More and more what's above the collar looks like a couple of arse cheeks. So I'm not sure it really matters.
Read his biography of winston churchill - he's actually a good writer - main theme of his book is how, despite being a maverick or perhaps because of it perhaps, influential and instrumental churchill was in us winning ww2. Things such as being instrumental in the development of the tank to being the one that took over as war leader and had the oratory to unite the nation. I thnk my point is boris sees himself as such a maverick on a par with winston, it's all about him imo.
I had family members who remembered winston as also being the man who, as home secretary, sent 10,000 soldiers armed with machine guns, six tanks and a 4.5 inch Howitzer to Glasgow; the largest deployment of British troops on native soil. The army appeared on Glasgow’s streets on the 1st of February, 1919, The Howitzer was positioned at the City Chambers, the cattle market was transformed into a tank depot, Lewis Guns were posted on the top of the North British Hotel and the General Post Office, and armed troops stood sentry outside power stations and the docks. English troops were brought in on the not unreasonable grounds that a scottish regiment might be less inclined to open fire. People like to forget that about churchill and events like that in our somewhat less than glorious history when the flags are waving. Brexit means brexit let's take back control - hallelujah.
Read his biography of winston churchill - he's actually a good writer - main theme of his book is how, despite being a maverick or perhaps because of it perhaps, influential and instrumental churchill was in us winning ww2. Things such as being instrumental in the development of the tank to being the one that took over as war leader and had the oratory to unite the nation. I thnk my point is boris sees himself as such a maverick on a par with winston, it's all about him imo.
I had family members who remembered winston as also being the man who, as home secretary, sent 10,000 soldiers armed with machine guns, six tanks and a 4.5 inch Howitzer to Glasgow; the largest deployment of British troops on native soil. The army appeared on Glasgow’s streets on the 1st of February, 1919, The Howitzer was positioned at the City Chambers, the cattle market was transformed into a tank depot, Lewis Guns were posted on the top of the North British Hotel and the General Post Office, and armed troops stood sentry outside power stations and the docks. English troops were brought in on the not unreasonable grounds that a scottish regiment might be less inclined to open fire. People like to forget that about churchill and events like that in our somewhat less than glorious history when the flags are waving. Brexit means brexit let's take back control - hallelujah.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Churchill described Montgomery as, "In war, unbeatable; in peace, unbearable." (or something pretty close). Not far off for him, either. A disastrous Chancellor and in the Home Office his behaviour was consistent with what you describe in Glasgow. But it really is questionable if we'd have survived unbeaten without him.
Brexit means we take back control and give it to far right Tory Ministers without any control whatever. They then bargain it away to the US in return for chlorinated chicken and hormone pumped beef.
Someone said of Churchill that he had a hundred ideas a day. The difficulty was spotting the one or two genuinely good ones. The tank - yes. But also Gallipoli... Alan Brooke, his CIGS, spent half or more of the next war fighting Churchill as much as the enemy. Credit to Churchill - he appointed Brooke and never sacked him. Churchill understood he needed someone to put the brakes on him, by that point in his career.
Johnson, on the other hand, is just setting up his own Gallipoli...
chuckle. I assume you know from Johnson's book if nowhere else that after Gallipoli Churchill did self impose penance by fighting on the Western Front? Not (of course!) as a private soldier but as a General if he could get it. However Haig (I think) heard about it and he was made Lt Colonel of a Scots' Regiment and did front line duty, where from all I've picked up he showed himself personally fearless and was a great success, though there were no big operations while he was there, I think. Given that a lot of the very top brass was Scottish at the time I doubt Churchill's appointment to a Scots' Regiment was unmindful of what had happened in Glasgow.
Brexit means we take back control and give it to far right Tory Ministers without any control whatever. They then bargain it away to the US in return for chlorinated chicken and hormone pumped beef.
Someone said of Churchill that he had a hundred ideas a day. The difficulty was spotting the one or two genuinely good ones. The tank - yes. But also Gallipoli... Alan Brooke, his CIGS, spent half or more of the next war fighting Churchill as much as the enemy. Credit to Churchill - he appointed Brooke and never sacked him. Churchill understood he needed someone to put the brakes on him, by that point in his career.
Johnson, on the other hand, is just setting up his own Gallipoli...
chuckle. I assume you know from Johnson's book if nowhere else that after Gallipoli Churchill did self impose penance by fighting on the Western Front? Not (of course!) as a private soldier but as a General if he could get it. However Haig (I think) heard about it and he was made Lt Colonel of a Scots' Regiment and did front line duty, where from all I've picked up he showed himself personally fearless and was a great success, though there were no big operations while he was there, I think. Given that a lot of the very top brass was Scottish at the time I doubt Churchill's appointment to a Scots' Regiment was unmindful of what had happened in Glasgow.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519607 wrote: Churchill described Montgomery as, "In war, unbeatable; in peace, unbearable." (or something pretty close). Not far off for him, either. A disastrous Chancellor and in the Home Office his behaviour was consistent with what you describe in Glasgow. But it really is questionable if we'd have survived unbeaten without him.
Brexit means we take back control and give it to far right Tory Ministers without any control whatever. They then bargain it away to the US in return for chlorinated chicken and hormone pumped beef.
Someone said of Churchill that he had a hundred ideas a day. The difficulty was spotting the one or two genuinely good ones. The tank - yes. But also Gallipoli... Alan Brooke, his CIGS, spent half or more of the next war fighting Churchill as much as the enemy. Credit to Churchill - he appointed Brooke and never sacked him. Churchill understood he needed someone to put the brakes on him, by that point in his career.
Johnson, on the other hand, is just setting up his own Gallipoli...
chuckle. I assume you know from Johnson's book if nowhere else that after Gallipoli Churchill did self impose penance by fighting on the Western Front? Not (of course!) as a private soldier but as a General if he could get it. However Haig (I think) heard about it and he was made Lt Colonel of a Scots' Regiment and did front line duty, where from all I've picked up he showed himself personally fearless and was a great success, though there were no big operations while he was there, I think. Given that a lot of the very top brass was Scottish at the time I doubt Churchill's appointment to a Scots' Regiment was unmindful of what had happened in Glasgow.
Red clydeside wasn't until AFTER the war in 1919. It's an affair that many are completely unaware of. By all accounts his men seem to have thought well of him.
Churchill was a man of his time a lot of others were imperialist, racist, mysoginistic (suffragettes were viewed as terrorists and treated appallingly) in those days. An awful lot of people did and believed things we would consider appalling nowadays. At least he was always consistent about hitler.
Brexit means we take back control and give it to far right Tory Ministers without any control whatever. They then bargain it away to the US in return for chlorinated chicken and hormone pumped beef.
Someone said of Churchill that he had a hundred ideas a day. The difficulty was spotting the one or two genuinely good ones. The tank - yes. But also Gallipoli... Alan Brooke, his CIGS, spent half or more of the next war fighting Churchill as much as the enemy. Credit to Churchill - he appointed Brooke and never sacked him. Churchill understood he needed someone to put the brakes on him, by that point in his career.
Johnson, on the other hand, is just setting up his own Gallipoli...
chuckle. I assume you know from Johnson's book if nowhere else that after Gallipoli Churchill did self impose penance by fighting on the Western Front? Not (of course!) as a private soldier but as a General if he could get it. However Haig (I think) heard about it and he was made Lt Colonel of a Scots' Regiment and did front line duty, where from all I've picked up he showed himself personally fearless and was a great success, though there were no big operations while he was there, I think. Given that a lot of the very top brass was Scottish at the time I doubt Churchill's appointment to a Scots' Regiment was unmindful of what had happened in Glasgow.
Red clydeside wasn't until AFTER the war in 1919. It's an affair that many are completely unaware of. By all accounts his men seem to have thought well of him.
Churchill was a man of his time a lot of others were imperialist, racist, mysoginistic (suffragettes were viewed as terrorists and treated appallingly) in those days. An awful lot of people did and believed things we would consider appalling nowadays. At least he was always consistent about hitler.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Red clydeside wasn't until AFTER the war in 1919. It's an affair that many are completely unaware of.
I was aware but wrong on the timing and so the implictions. I stand corrected.
I was aware but wrong on the timing and so the implictions. I stand corrected.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
It's an interesting period in our history. post ww1 the establishment were absolutely terrified there might be a communist uprising in the UK.
To go back to the actual thread I think this has the potential to backfire on the US spectacularly. The eu, china, russie the bric countries can just increase trade with other to make up for lost markets in the US the US needs to trade to survive. One thing trump doesn't seem to consider in the trade equation is that of financial services take that in to account and canada has a trade deficit with the US.
https://www.ft.com/content/1d8a46e8-287 ... 62a39d57a0
What if the world decides the doller is no longer one of the largest reserve currencies and was replaced by say the yuan? If russia did play a significant part in getting trump elected and their motives were no more than just causing mischief this must have them rolling in the aisles.
To go back to the actual thread I think this has the potential to backfire on the US spectacularly. The eu, china, russie the bric countries can just increase trade with other to make up for lost markets in the US the US needs to trade to survive. One thing trump doesn't seem to consider in the trade equation is that of financial services take that in to account and canada has a trade deficit with the US.
https://www.ft.com/content/1d8a46e8-287 ... 62a39d57a0
What if the world decides the doller is no longer one of the largest reserve currencies and was replaced by say the yuan? If russia did play a significant part in getting trump elected and their motives were no more than just causing mischief this must have them rolling in the aisles.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
To go back to the actual thread I think this has the potential to backfire on the US spectacularly. The eu, china, russie the bric countries can just increase trade with other to make up for lost markets in the US the US needs to trade to survive.
I've been wondering how true that is. Not saying you are wrong, just unsure. Yes, the RotW can increase trade among themselves but the US is a Continental power. They have access to pretty much all the resources they need internally and have a huge internal market. I simply don't know what it would take to hurt them, economically, in a way that mattered politically.
No Uranium, I think, in the USA. Apart from on warheads.
I'm pretty sure Putin tried to influence both the US election and the brexit referendum. I think he had considerable success in both but proving it is difficult since the trail is bound to be obscured and when you have national security services involved and the resources THEY have...anything is possible. When the PM, the Defence Secretary AND the EU are all saying Russia is a big problem and you have more poisoned enemies of Putin on our streets (plus collateral damage) then yeah, I think brexit can be regarded as a huge Russian success: It has enormously damaged the EU and the UK and has made Putin's efforts in the Ukraine, Syria, Georgia and the Crimea much easier.
Whether t6hey can prove collusion between Trump and the Russians I must admit I doubt. It would be incredibly stupid if there is a trail investigators can follow but the arrogance of people like Trump knows no bounds and might be his downfall (as with his "charity", aka extra bank account.)
I've been wondering how true that is. Not saying you are wrong, just unsure. Yes, the RotW can increase trade among themselves but the US is a Continental power. They have access to pretty much all the resources they need internally and have a huge internal market. I simply don't know what it would take to hurt them, economically, in a way that mattered politically.
No Uranium, I think, in the USA. Apart from on warheads.
I'm pretty sure Putin tried to influence both the US election and the brexit referendum. I think he had considerable success in both but proving it is difficult since the trail is bound to be obscured and when you have national security services involved and the resources THEY have...anything is possible. When the PM, the Defence Secretary AND the EU are all saying Russia is a big problem and you have more poisoned enemies of Putin on our streets (plus collateral damage) then yeah, I think brexit can be regarded as a huge Russian success: It has enormously damaged the EU and the UK and has made Putin's efforts in the Ukraine, Syria, Georgia and the Crimea much easier.
Whether t6hey can prove collusion between Trump and the Russians I must admit I doubt. It would be incredibly stupid if there is a trail investigators can follow but the arrogance of people like Trump knows no bounds and might be his downfall (as with his "charity", aka extra bank account.)
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
I've been wondering how true that is. Not saying you are wrong, just unsure. Yes, the RotW can increase trade among themselves but the US is a Continental power. They have access to pretty much all the resources they need internally and have a huge internal market. I simply don't know what it would take to hurt them, economically, in a way that mattered politically.
Perhaps the military? This may bring about the demise of US hegemony and if they are going to be isolationist why do they need a military able to project power anywhere in the world? The us has a large fleet to protect their interests but if they pull out of the pacific and middle east why do they need conventional military power when they have nuclear weapons as a deterrent against attack on the homeland. If trump brings back the troops from korea where will they go? Will us citizens tolerate a large military sitting around doing nothing? Make america great sounds a bit naff if it means having no carrier fleet for instance. Never mind the cost saving what would be the effect of they start scrapping carriers and stopping new builds?
What about the internet - we don't need to have everything based in the us and how long before that shifts from the us to europe and elsewhere? Let's face it who wants to have a US run by trump with the ability to screw up the internet? Google and facebook are already in trouble with the eu, amazon could be kicked out that would really hurt them I think. Personally I think amazon is doinmg a great deal of harm to our economy made worse by not paying any taxes.
US software companies insist that terms of business be based on US law that could change. There are a whole lot of "soft" trade issues at stake here not just steel and agriculture.
Perhaps the military? This may bring about the demise of US hegemony and if they are going to be isolationist why do they need a military able to project power anywhere in the world? The us has a large fleet to protect their interests but if they pull out of the pacific and middle east why do they need conventional military power when they have nuclear weapons as a deterrent against attack on the homeland. If trump brings back the troops from korea where will they go? Will us citizens tolerate a large military sitting around doing nothing? Make america great sounds a bit naff if it means having no carrier fleet for instance. Never mind the cost saving what would be the effect of they start scrapping carriers and stopping new builds?
What about the internet - we don't need to have everything based in the us and how long before that shifts from the us to europe and elsewhere? Let's face it who wants to have a US run by trump with the ability to screw up the internet? Google and facebook are already in trouble with the eu, amazon could be kicked out that would really hurt them I think. Personally I think amazon is doinmg a great deal of harm to our economy made worse by not paying any taxes.
US software companies insist that terms of business be based on US law that could change. There are a whole lot of "soft" trade issues at stake here not just steel and agriculture.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Now we have a US Administration taking kids from their parents, locking them in cages and deporting the parents but keeping the kids, if I've got this right.
Wow.
What next? Einsatzgruppen?
And isn't he using the terrorist justification? They will keep doing this because Democrats won't give them what they demand. If the Democrats were to give them what they demand they wouldn't do this so it's the Democrats' responsibility?
Given Trump has just announced a new offensive in his trade war with China he doesn't seem too bothered. I struggle to find any coherence in his policies and I think that may be the point: he creates and tries to manipulate chaos. By having 25 issues on the go at any time no-one can concentrate on any single one for long, or at least no-one does. The only thing that does is the Mueller probe and that's gone very quiet. Hmm. And now the charity case. Perhaps people are now starting to try to pin him down on specific issues?
If Trump starts unpicking the military/industrial complex...gosh. Chuckle. According to the conspiracy theorists various secret organisations with names like Majestic XII should kill him pronto, if he does. Maybe we will see...
On a related issue, I saw a month or two back that Sweden has significantly increased its defence spending and reissued its civil defence advice in the event of being invaded for the first time in ages. Not hugely significant in military terms but a sign of a change in direction perhaps. I doubt anyone is thinking about disarmament except Jeremy Corbyn.
All one can do is watch and wonder.
Wow.
What next? Einsatzgruppen?
And isn't he using the terrorist justification? They will keep doing this because Democrats won't give them what they demand. If the Democrats were to give them what they demand they wouldn't do this so it's the Democrats' responsibility?
Given Trump has just announced a new offensive in his trade war with China he doesn't seem too bothered. I struggle to find any coherence in his policies and I think that may be the point: he creates and tries to manipulate chaos. By having 25 issues on the go at any time no-one can concentrate on any single one for long, or at least no-one does. The only thing that does is the Mueller probe and that's gone very quiet. Hmm. And now the charity case. Perhaps people are now starting to try to pin him down on specific issues?
If Trump starts unpicking the military/industrial complex...gosh. Chuckle. According to the conspiracy theorists various secret organisations with names like Majestic XII should kill him pronto, if he does. Maybe we will see...
On a related issue, I saw a month or two back that Sweden has significantly increased its defence spending and reissued its civil defence advice in the event of being invaded for the first time in ages. Not hugely significant in military terms but a sign of a change in direction perhaps. I doubt anyone is thinking about disarmament except Jeremy Corbyn.
All one can do is watch and wonder.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
"Now we have a US Administration taking kids from their parents, locking them in cages and deporting the parents but keeping the kids, if I've got this right."
Half right. The parents have been so far jailed, not deported.
Half right. The parents have been so far jailed, not deported.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
That's not really a reassurance given it's the separation that's the real issue, as of course you are well aware.
Please understand that criticisms I may make of the US smacking itself repeatedly in the nuts are to be seen in the context of my country doing the same and a strong suspicion there are connections between the two situations.
I never thought I'd see a US administration stand there and calmly claim that the end justifies the means. Actually, not even that. They made claims that assumed everyone accepted that the end justifies the means. Border problem? Torture kids. End of problem. Policy justified.
Human Rights? What Human Rights.
Please understand that criticisms I may make of the US smacking itself repeatedly in the nuts are to be seen in the context of my country doing the same and a strong suspicion there are connections between the two situations.
I never thought I'd see a US administration stand there and calmly claim that the end justifies the means. Actually, not even that. They made claims that assumed everyone accepted that the end justifies the means. Border problem? Torture kids. End of problem. Policy justified.
Human Rights? What Human Rights.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
You were right. Parents have been deported while their children remain as kidnap victims of the U.S. government. Kids in cages. No Human Rights. Slavery, all over again. My hatred & disgust know no bounds.
Well, that was an interesting G7
The more I read about this the more complicated it seems.
I've whined and cried about illegal immigration of maybe the last 30 years or so.
If nothing else, that guy in the White House got everybody's attention.
I've whined and cried about illegal immigration of maybe the last 30 years or so.
If nothing else, that guy in the White House got everybody's attention.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Illegal immigration is a problem - accepted. It is one of many problems we face. Many of these problems have solutions that we, as civilised free peoples, cannot use because no matter how good the result might be, we'd have to commit terrible acts to achieve it. So in Europe is it regarded by many as not acceptable to solve our refugee/migrant issue by sinking the boats full of women and kids and leaving them to drown - even though it would solve most of the problem in a few weeks.
It was the great lesson of WW2 and why we have the UN. It's also worth remembering that the folks involved in this have all become worse people because of it. The guy in the recording of a lot of crying kids saying all they need is a conductor, or the ones standing round a crying small child because they are ordered not to comfort migrants, and obeying orders, all of them have been made worse and have made themselves worse by going along with it. This or similar acts will be easier for them in the future (unless they have a good look in the mirror pretty quick and face what they have been involved with). Trump corrupts everything and everyone he touches.
It also is a graphic demonstrations of how worse atrocities happen: did anyone involved resign, or protest, or even complain? Peer group conformity, training and authority figures are a potent combination. We know that from the Milgram experiments done after the 2nd WW when a US psychologist wanted to find out how so many ordinary people could be made to commit atrocities as so many Germans had, even if they weren't Nazis. Milgram got ordinary people off the street to deliver what they thought were fatal electric shocks to test subjects when ordered to do so by the people in white coats running the experiment. The Nazis got people to torture and murder jews, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, women, children, men - anyone, if ordered. What it seems to come down to is that we will obey trusted authority figures, even if ordered to do terrible and illegal things, in almost all cases. It's also true with peer pressure and the urge to go along with the group. Combine the two...
It's a horrible thing but true that people, ordinary people, not monsters, can be trained to do terrible things. All the US officials and people on the ground actually putting this policy into practice have been led a few steps down the path that leads to gulags and death camps by Trump and his policy.
It's also true that mostly the people who do these things don't suffer for it immediately, but the Nazis noticed that people who did the killing of the defenceless generally began to deteriorate, with alcoholism increasing, and also emotional and psychological problems in many cases. It is likely that some of the people involved with putting this US policy into practice will also suffer for it. They may be able to tough it out, but some will pay. Others of course will sleep soundly, unaffected, with a few enjoying their work.
Not long ago we tortured people to death in public, and people came from miles around for the spectacle and holiday. Roman Circuses were orgies of blood and horror. Savagery is not far below the surface of humanity; modern civilisation really is a thin and recent veneer and it can be broken quite easily.
It was the great lesson of WW2 and why we have the UN. It's also worth remembering that the folks involved in this have all become worse people because of it. The guy in the recording of a lot of crying kids saying all they need is a conductor, or the ones standing round a crying small child because they are ordered not to comfort migrants, and obeying orders, all of them have been made worse and have made themselves worse by going along with it. This or similar acts will be easier for them in the future (unless they have a good look in the mirror pretty quick and face what they have been involved with). Trump corrupts everything and everyone he touches.
It also is a graphic demonstrations of how worse atrocities happen: did anyone involved resign, or protest, or even complain? Peer group conformity, training and authority figures are a potent combination. We know that from the Milgram experiments done after the 2nd WW when a US psychologist wanted to find out how so many ordinary people could be made to commit atrocities as so many Germans had, even if they weren't Nazis. Milgram got ordinary people off the street to deliver what they thought were fatal electric shocks to test subjects when ordered to do so by the people in white coats running the experiment. The Nazis got people to torture and murder jews, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, women, children, men - anyone, if ordered. What it seems to come down to is that we will obey trusted authority figures, even if ordered to do terrible and illegal things, in almost all cases. It's also true with peer pressure and the urge to go along with the group. Combine the two...
It's a horrible thing but true that people, ordinary people, not monsters, can be trained to do terrible things. All the US officials and people on the ground actually putting this policy into practice have been led a few steps down the path that leads to gulags and death camps by Trump and his policy.
It's also true that mostly the people who do these things don't suffer for it immediately, but the Nazis noticed that people who did the killing of the defenceless generally began to deteriorate, with alcoholism increasing, and also emotional and psychological problems in many cases. It is likely that some of the people involved with putting this US policy into practice will also suffer for it. They may be able to tough it out, but some will pay. Others of course will sleep soundly, unaffected, with a few enjoying their work.
Not long ago we tortured people to death in public, and people came from miles around for the spectacle and holiday. Roman Circuses were orgies of blood and horror. Savagery is not far below the surface of humanity; modern civilisation really is a thin and recent veneer and it can be broken quite easily.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519644 wrote: Illegal immigration is a problem - accepted. It is one of many problems we face. Many of these problems have solutions that we, as civilised free peoples, cannot use because no matter how good the result might be, we'd have to commit terrible acts to achieve it. So in Europe is it regarded by many as not acceptable to solve our refugee/migrant issue by sinking the boats full of women and kids and leaving them to drown - even though it would solve most of the problem in a few weeks.
It was the great lesson of WW2 and why we have the UN. It's also worth remembering that the folks involved in this have all become worse people because of it. The guy in the recording of a lot of crying kids saying all they need is a conductor, or the ones standing round a crying small child because they are ordered not to comfort migrants, and obeying orders, all of them have been made worse and have made themselves worse by going along with it. This or similar acts will be easier for them in the future (unless they have a good look in the mirror pretty quick and face what they have been involved with). Trump corrupts everything and everyone he touches.
It also is a graphic demonstrations of how worse atrocities happen: did anyone involved resign, or protest, or even complain? Peer group conformity, training and authority figures are a potent combination. We know that from the Milgram experiments done after the 2nd WW when a US psychologist wanted to find out how so many ordinary people could be made to commit atrocities as so many Germans had, even if they weren't Nazis. Milgram got ordinary people off the street to deliver what they thought were fatal electric shocks to test subjects when ordered to do so by the people in white coats running the experiment. The Nazis got people to torture and murder jews, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, women, children, men - anyone, if ordered. What it seems to come down to is that we will obey trusted authority figures, even if ordered to do terrible and illegal things, in almost all cases. It's also true with peer pressure and the urge to go along with the group. Combine the two...
It's a horrible thing but true that people, ordinary people, not monsters, can be trained to do terrible things. All the US officials and people on the ground actually putting this policy into practice have been led a few steps down the path that leads to gulags and death camps by Trump and his policy.
It's also true that mostly the people who do these things don't suffer for it immediately, but the Nazis noticed that people who did the killing of the defenceless generally began to deteriorate, with alcoholism increasing, and also emotional and psychological problems in many cases. It is likely that some of the people involved with putting this US policy into practice will also suffer for it. They may be able to tough it out, but some will pay. Others of course will sleep soundly, unaffected, with a few enjoying their work.
Not long ago we tortured people to death in public, and people came from miles around for the spectacle and holiday. Roman Circuses were orgies of blood and horror. Savagery is not far below the surface of humanity; modern civilisation really is a thin and recent veneer and it can be broken quite easily.
I cannot imagine this
happening in the United States, for any reason.
There are lots of horror stories about migrating people suffering abuse in Mexico as they try to sneak into the US.
The Mexican Government condones this, kinda making Trump lood good in comparson.
It was the great lesson of WW2 and why we have the UN. It's also worth remembering that the folks involved in this have all become worse people because of it. The guy in the recording of a lot of crying kids saying all they need is a conductor, or the ones standing round a crying small child because they are ordered not to comfort migrants, and obeying orders, all of them have been made worse and have made themselves worse by going along with it. This or similar acts will be easier for them in the future (unless they have a good look in the mirror pretty quick and face what they have been involved with). Trump corrupts everything and everyone he touches.
It also is a graphic demonstrations of how worse atrocities happen: did anyone involved resign, or protest, or even complain? Peer group conformity, training and authority figures are a potent combination. We know that from the Milgram experiments done after the 2nd WW when a US psychologist wanted to find out how so many ordinary people could be made to commit atrocities as so many Germans had, even if they weren't Nazis. Milgram got ordinary people off the street to deliver what they thought were fatal electric shocks to test subjects when ordered to do so by the people in white coats running the experiment. The Nazis got people to torture and murder jews, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, women, children, men - anyone, if ordered. What it seems to come down to is that we will obey trusted authority figures, even if ordered to do terrible and illegal things, in almost all cases. It's also true with peer pressure and the urge to go along with the group. Combine the two...
It's a horrible thing but true that people, ordinary people, not monsters, can be trained to do terrible things. All the US officials and people on the ground actually putting this policy into practice have been led a few steps down the path that leads to gulags and death camps by Trump and his policy.
It's also true that mostly the people who do these things don't suffer for it immediately, but the Nazis noticed that people who did the killing of the defenceless generally began to deteriorate, with alcoholism increasing, and also emotional and psychological problems in many cases. It is likely that some of the people involved with putting this US policy into practice will also suffer for it. They may be able to tough it out, but some will pay. Others of course will sleep soundly, unaffected, with a few enjoying their work.
Not long ago we tortured people to death in public, and people came from miles around for the spectacle and holiday. Roman Circuses were orgies of blood and horror. Savagery is not far below the surface of humanity; modern civilisation really is a thin and recent veneer and it can be broken quite easily.
I cannot imagine this
happening in the United States, for any reason.
There are lots of horror stories about migrating people suffering abuse in Mexico as they try to sneak into the US.
The Mexican Government condones this, kinda making Trump lood good in comparson.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Well, that was an interesting G7
tude dog;1519648 wrote: I cannot imagine this
happening in the United States, for any reason.
There are lots of horror stories about migrating people suffering abuse in Mexico as they try to sneak into the US.
The Mexican Government condones this, kinda making Trump lood good in comparson.
You are responsible for what you do as a human being. he is worse than me is no defence or justification at all. Trump was elected president he is not a dictator you have a system of government with checks built in to curb the power of the executive branch of government. You do nothing you condone it. No one alive today is responsible far what was done in the past but we are for what is done today. It's now an accepted tenet with regard to human rights and one that was established at the nuremberg trials that the defence of following orders is no defence at all - a principle established in large part by the US at nuremburg trials. Nothing is ever that simple (the firebombing of german cities and the deliberate targeting of civilans is often cited as an example of double standards and I'm fairly sure there were occasions when british and allied troops didn't piss about taking prisoners.) but all it would take is one of the republicans to argue that the immigrants are not entitled to protection under human rights legislation and you can almost see the jackboots going on.
Oh wait maybe that's next.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/p ... ights.html
Someone somewhere has probably already argued that because the parents broke the law we should have no sympathy for the children they brought with them and that the parents are responsible for the cages the children find themselves in not those who put them there.
Cheer up though at least your government wants to improveyour economy ours wants to destroy ours.
happening in the United States, for any reason.
There are lots of horror stories about migrating people suffering abuse in Mexico as they try to sneak into the US.
The Mexican Government condones this, kinda making Trump lood good in comparson.
You are responsible for what you do as a human being. he is worse than me is no defence or justification at all. Trump was elected president he is not a dictator you have a system of government with checks built in to curb the power of the executive branch of government. You do nothing you condone it. No one alive today is responsible far what was done in the past but we are for what is done today. It's now an accepted tenet with regard to human rights and one that was established at the nuremberg trials that the defence of following orders is no defence at all - a principle established in large part by the US at nuremburg trials. Nothing is ever that simple (the firebombing of german cities and the deliberate targeting of civilans is often cited as an example of double standards and I'm fairly sure there were occasions when british and allied troops didn't piss about taking prisoners.) but all it would take is one of the republicans to argue that the immigrants are not entitled to protection under human rights legislation and you can almost see the jackboots going on.
Oh wait maybe that's next.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/p ... ights.html
Someone somewhere has probably already argued that because the parents broke the law we should have no sympathy for the children they brought with them and that the parents are responsible for the cages the children find themselves in not those who put them there.
Cheer up though at least your government wants to improveyour economy ours wants to destroy ours.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
I've recovered the memory I had of Red Clydeside and is isn't out of books. I heard from a descendent of someone involved, or who had heard from the descendent of someone involved so I suspect it was at St Andrews and the story was that the junior officers were all set to start the revolution but they had to get the keys of the Armoury from the RSM and he refused and the revolution never got off the ground.
Niall Paterson, I think it was who told me. It's even possible you might know the name - went on to have a career in Scottish TV. Kids' programmes, I think.
Niall Paterson, I think it was who told me. It's even possible you might know the name - went on to have a career in Scottish TV. Kids' programmes, I think.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519657 wrote: I've recovered the memory I had of Red Clydeside and is isn't out of books. I heard from a descendent of someone involved, or who had heard from the descendent of someone involved so I suspect it was at St Andrews and the story was that the junior officers were all set to start the revolution but they had to get the keys of the Armoury from the RSM and he refused and the revolution never got off the ground.
Niall Paterson, I think it was who told me. It's even possible you might know the name - went on to have a career in Scottish TV. Kids' programmes, I think.
Maybe you should do some reading of books. Soundsa a bit dubious to me do you really think potential revolutionaries who had just come back from the trenches would take no for an answer? Scotland lost one in seven of its male population in ww1 I just can't imagine what the feelings at the time must have been like.
https://sites.scran.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyde/rc025.htm
An estimated total of 10,000 English troops were sent to Glasgow in the immediate aftermath of the battle of George Square. This was in spite of a full battalion of Scottish soldiers being stationed at Maryhill barracks in Glasgow at the time.
No Scottish troops were deployed, with the government fearing that fellow Scots, soldiers or otherwise, would go over to the workers' side if a revolutionary situation developed in Glasgow. English troops were transported from England and stationed in Glasgow specifically to combat this possible scenario.
I was made aware of it by a relative - an uncle- who remembered seeing the tanks and troops as a child.
It's always been a cause for perplexity that the UK didn't have more armee uprisings it seems the establishment gave ground just enough to stop pushing people over the edge. The Representation of the People Act was passed in 1918.
Niall Paterson, I think it was who told me. It's even possible you might know the name - went on to have a career in Scottish TV. Kids' programmes, I think.
Maybe you should do some reading of books. Soundsa a bit dubious to me do you really think potential revolutionaries who had just come back from the trenches would take no for an answer? Scotland lost one in seven of its male population in ww1 I just can't imagine what the feelings at the time must have been like.
https://sites.scran.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyde/rc025.htm
An estimated total of 10,000 English troops were sent to Glasgow in the immediate aftermath of the battle of George Square. This was in spite of a full battalion of Scottish soldiers being stationed at Maryhill barracks in Glasgow at the time.
No Scottish troops were deployed, with the government fearing that fellow Scots, soldiers or otherwise, would go over to the workers' side if a revolutionary situation developed in Glasgow. English troops were transported from England and stationed in Glasgow specifically to combat this possible scenario.
I was made aware of it by a relative - an uncle- who remembered seeing the tanks and troops as a child.
It's always been a cause for perplexity that the UK didn't have more armee uprisings it seems the establishment gave ground just enough to stop pushing people over the edge. The Representation of the People Act was passed in 1918.
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519644 wrote: Illegal immigration is a problem - accepted. It is one of many problems we face. Many of these problems have solutions that we, as civilised free peoples, cannot use because no matter how good the result might be, we'd have to commit terrible acts to achieve it. So in Europe is it regarded by many as not acceptable to solve our refugee/migrant issue by sinking the boats full of women and kids and leaving them to drown - even though it would solve most of the problem in a few weeks.
It's a chicken and egg question I believe.
A big "IF" the west hadn't supplied the means, by and large, and the puppeteering of internal politics in many of the countries involved, the migrants wouldn't have the need to leave their homelands.......where haven't we been involved ?
Add to that the welcome recieved when arriving, the open armed welcome arriving in Germany being seen worldwide, and the knowledge trickling back home of the ease of getting support in many European countries, all makes the troublesome journey almost worth it.
My method of stopping the flow would be European cooperation with the countries where they make land, to support the unfortunate migrants in holding camps, until such time they can return.
It's a chicken and egg question I believe.
A big "IF" the west hadn't supplied the means, by and large, and the puppeteering of internal politics in many of the countries involved, the migrants wouldn't have the need to leave their homelands.......where haven't we been involved ?
Add to that the welcome recieved when arriving, the open armed welcome arriving in Germany being seen worldwide, and the knowledge trickling back home of the ease of getting support in many European countries, all makes the troublesome journey almost worth it.
My method of stopping the flow would be European cooperation with the countries where they make land, to support the unfortunate migrants in holding camps, until such time they can return.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Well, that was an interesting G7
gmc;1519653 wrote: You are responsible for what you do as a human being. he is worse than me is no defence or justification at all. Trump was elected president he is not a dictator you have a system of government with checks built in to curb the power of the executive branch of government. You do nothing you condone it. No one alive today is responsible far what was done in the past but we are for what is done today. It's now an accepted tenet with regard to human rights and one that was established at the nuremberg trials that the defence of following orders is no defence at all - a principle established in large part by the US at nuremburg trials. Nothing is ever that simple (the firebombing of german cities and the deliberate targeting of civilans is often cited as an example of double standards and I'm fairly sure there were occasions when british and allied troops didn't piss about taking prisoners.) but all it would take is one of the republicans to argue that the immigrants are not entitled to protection under human rights legislation and you can almost see the jackboots going on.
:-2
gmc;1519653 wrote: Oh wait maybe that's next.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/p ... ights.html
That is hardly a heartbreaker.
gmc;1519653 wrote: Someone somewhere has probably already argued that because the parents broke the law we should have no sympathy for the children they brought with them and that the parents are responsible for the cages the children find themselves in not those who put them there.
Sure you'll be the one to bring us that news.:guitarist
gmc;1519653 wrote: Cheer up though at least your government wants to improveyour economy ours wants to destroy ours.
:-2
gmc;1519653 wrote: Oh wait maybe that's next.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/p ... ights.html
That is hardly a heartbreaker.
gmc;1519653 wrote: Someone somewhere has probably already argued that because the parents broke the law we should have no sympathy for the children they brought with them and that the parents are responsible for the cages the children find themselves in not those who put them there.
Sure you'll be the one to bring us that news.:guitarist
gmc;1519653 wrote: Cheer up though at least your government wants to improveyour economy ours wants to destroy ours.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Maybe you should do some reading of books. Soundsa a bit dubious to me do you really think potential revolutionaries who had just come back from the trenches would take no for an answer? Scotland lost one in seven of its male population in ww1 I just can't imagine what the feelings at the time must have been like.
I can't vouch for its truth but that's the story I was told. And a few years or even a year after the war the junior officers were likely to be pretty new (most wartime officers were Hostilities Only) and I can well imagine they were not going to shoot the RSM because he wouldn't open the door - they may or may not have fought in the Great War; he certainly would have. Besides, their pistols wouldn't have got through the door (if at all) without so much noise everyone would be alerted before they got properly armed.
I didn't make it clear - in the story as I heard it the RSM was IN the Armoury, the other side of a very solid door from the potential rebels.
I can't vouch for its truth but that's the story I was told. And a few years or even a year after the war the junior officers were likely to be pretty new (most wartime officers were Hostilities Only) and I can well imagine they were not going to shoot the RSM because he wouldn't open the door - they may or may not have fought in the Great War; he certainly would have. Besides, their pistols wouldn't have got through the door (if at all) without so much noise everyone would be alerted before they got properly armed.
I didn't make it clear - in the story as I heard it the RSM was IN the Armoury, the other side of a very solid door from the potential rebels.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
My method of stopping the flow would be European cooperation with the countries where they make land, to support the unfortunate migrants in holding camps, until such time they can return.
This upsurge in refugees, which began what? 5 years ago? is apparently largely driven by Islamic State causing trouble. This is the region where they kidnapped all those schoolgirls, for example. I'm not sure this one can be blamed on Western interference so much.
...well, other than the basic fact that a lot of the general problems of the region are a consequence of colonialism. I can't, myself, think of a better solution than the one you come up with, either way.
This upsurge in refugees, which began what? 5 years ago? is apparently largely driven by Islamic State causing trouble. This is the region where they kidnapped all those schoolgirls, for example. I'm not sure this one can be blamed on Western interference so much.
...well, other than the basic fact that a lot of the general problems of the region are a consequence of colonialism. I can't, myself, think of a better solution than the one you come up with, either way.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519693 wrote: I don't vouch for its truth but that's the story I was told. And a few years or even a year after the war the junior officers were likely to be pretty new (most wartime officers were Hostilities Only) and I can well imagine they were not going to shoot the RSM because he wouldn't open the door - they may or may not have fought in the Great War; he certainly would have. Besides, their pistols wouldn't have got through the door without so much noise everyone would be alerted before they got properly armed.
I didn't make it clear - in the story as I heard it the RSM was IN the Armoury, the other side of a very solid door from the potential rebels.
Just seems a bit dubious to me. It's hard to find out what "ordinary" people in the military at the time thought. We nowadays find it inconceivable that British troops would open fire on their own or indeed be used on our streets but you never know, we're not as civilised as we think we are.
When do you think the media will stop referring to the US president as leader of the free world? I never voted for him or indeed any other.
I didn't make it clear - in the story as I heard it the RSM was IN the Armoury, the other side of a very solid door from the potential rebels.
Just seems a bit dubious to me. It's hard to find out what "ordinary" people in the military at the time thought. We nowadays find it inconceivable that British troops would open fire on their own or indeed be used on our streets but you never know, we're not as civilised as we think we are.
When do you think the media will stop referring to the US president as leader of the free world? I never voted for him or indeed any other.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Is their use of the phrase becoming ironic?
He's certainly not any sort of leader of anything "free". Given he's alienated most of his allies and indeed his own people he's just the leader of a faction consisting of brexiter equivalents. May's government will of course crawl up his arse. Don't think anyone else is desperate enough.
Got to laugh at brexiters who claim they hate Trump and despise what he stands for - THEY are what he stands for. He's THEIR man. The best hope for Brexit is a great trade deal...with Trump.
If nothing else labelled brexiters as morons, that would.
He's certainly not any sort of leader of anything "free". Given he's alienated most of his allies and indeed his own people he's just the leader of a faction consisting of brexiter equivalents. May's government will of course crawl up his arse. Don't think anyone else is desperate enough.
Got to laugh at brexiters who claim they hate Trump and despise what he stands for - THEY are what he stands for. He's THEIR man. The best hope for Brexit is a great trade deal...with Trump.
If nothing else labelled brexiters as morons, that would.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519694 wrote: This upsurge in refugees, which began what? 5 years ago? is apparently largely driven by Islamic State causing trouble. This is the region where they kidnapped all those schoolgirls, for example. I'm not sure this one can be blamed on Western interference so much.
I have always thought the rise of Islamic state was a reaction to degenerate western society and it's influences.
I have always thought the rise of Islamic state was a reaction to degenerate western society and it's influences.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Bruv;1519700 wrote: I have always thought the rise of Islamic state was a reaction to degenerate western society and it's influences.
Man that's a hell of a complex argument to get into. Bin Laden was a rich man from a rich family and in his attitudes both savage and degenerate, I'd say. But this is local and often little more than robber bands seeking some sort of respectability at one end of the scale. At the other, I suspect they are trying to establish a new powerbase - probably already have, though I gather the French in particular are active in the region. Don't think they can cover all of it though, which is an obvious problem.
Must admit I consider Islam, as practised by the likes of ISIS, is thoroughly degenerate whereas what I suppose I'd call modern Islam is as respectable as Christianity - which also has murderous cults, though none ever so organised and extensive as ISIS. Scientology is probably the closest Christian equivalent - and I suspect a lot of Christians wouldn't accept that Scientologists were Christians, any more than a lot of Muslims don't consider ISIS Muslim. chuckle. Remember the comment that got on the news a year or two back? "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Oh: possibly the Catholic Church in its Crusading and Inquisitorial phases was much the same as ISIS. Similar attitudes displayed.
Man that's a hell of a complex argument to get into. Bin Laden was a rich man from a rich family and in his attitudes both savage and degenerate, I'd say. But this is local and often little more than robber bands seeking some sort of respectability at one end of the scale. At the other, I suspect they are trying to establish a new powerbase - probably already have, though I gather the French in particular are active in the region. Don't think they can cover all of it though, which is an obvious problem.
Must admit I consider Islam, as practised by the likes of ISIS, is thoroughly degenerate whereas what I suppose I'd call modern Islam is as respectable as Christianity - which also has murderous cults, though none ever so organised and extensive as ISIS. Scientology is probably the closest Christian equivalent - and I suspect a lot of Christians wouldn't accept that Scientologists were Christians, any more than a lot of Muslims don't consider ISIS Muslim. chuckle. Remember the comment that got on the news a year or two back? "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Oh: possibly the Catholic Church in its Crusading and Inquisitorial phases was much the same as ISIS. Similar attitudes displayed.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Patsy Warnick
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:53 am
Well, that was an interesting G7
I haven't or I'm not aware that the parents have been deported.
The parents & children were separated and a huge outrage - protesting is still going on.
The protesters - groups screaming at each other across the streets.
One side screaming reunite the children with the parents!!
the other side was interviewed - a woman (U.S. Citizen) stated "If I do some thing illegal
if I'm arrested - I'm not allowed to take my children to jail with me".
"NO, CPS is called & my children are put in foster care". (fact)
"These people are Illegal".
This is not my opinion - just stating whats going on in the Southern States- actually a mess.
Patsy
The parents & children were separated and a huge outrage - protesting is still going on.
The protesters - groups screaming at each other across the streets.
One side screaming reunite the children with the parents!!
the other side was interviewed - a woman (U.S. Citizen) stated "If I do some thing illegal
if I'm arrested - I'm not allowed to take my children to jail with me".
"NO, CPS is called & my children are put in foster care". (fact)
"These people are Illegal".
This is not my opinion - just stating whats going on in the Southern States- actually a mess.
Patsy
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Certainly saw one on the news yesterday but was more concerned with our local issue of the 3rd Heathrow runway. Can't remember where is was or I'd link it but it was a mother with a placard demanding they send her children back. There were also reports suggesting the Border forces haven't kept good records (this was done in a hurry to fulfil Trump's whim, remember. Not planned, prepared and put in place over months) and they have no idea whose kids are whose.
And it's one thing to do something to your own people. It's another to kidnap other nation's children and do what with them?
Interesting that the only other country I've heard of that kidnapped other nations kids for a while was North Korea, who kidnapped some Japanese children back in the 1970s, or some time around then. Big admirer of Kim, your President. Remember how he said he wanted you all to sit to attention and listen when he spoke, like they do in North Korea?
On top of that, I saw the interview of Melania Trump with the camp commandant. 1) It's clear Trump didn't pick her for intimate conversations, given her standard of English and 2) Did you notice the bit where the commandant said kids got 2 phone calls a week if they and the parents satisfied all the criteria. How many satisfy the criteria was the question not asked, echoing in the silence. And if they did satisfy the criteria why couldn't they speak every day if they wanted? Was it designed to cause pain? To parents AND their children?
Face it, you've created concentration camps. So far the behaviour in them isn't THAT bad, but you are also training up concentration camp guards. So far they have only withheld affection from crying children and made jokes about it. The first steps on the road to hell, and that road has been laid and signposted by Trump.
Don't I remember photos of guards treating inmates like animals in both British and US ISIS suspect detention camps? ISIS itself routinely using torture of the most horrific kinds? All the evidence shows - and there is a huuge amount of evidence both academic and practical - that without intense oversight and training, these situations degenerate very fast.
Would you say that deliberately separating kids from their parents is going to cause both great pain and distress? With no guarantees they'd ever see eachother again?
How would you feel? To me it looks like torture.
I'm not having a go at you particularly. The British were as bad at our detention camp and in exactly the same ways, iirc. It's a horrible fact of human nature and the important thing is not to set up the situations it can happen in the first place. Trump has done it exceptionally badly and created a situation of inbuilt horror.
And it's one thing to do something to your own people. It's another to kidnap other nation's children and do what with them?
Interesting that the only other country I've heard of that kidnapped other nations kids for a while was North Korea, who kidnapped some Japanese children back in the 1970s, or some time around then. Big admirer of Kim, your President. Remember how he said he wanted you all to sit to attention and listen when he spoke, like they do in North Korea?
On top of that, I saw the interview of Melania Trump with the camp commandant. 1) It's clear Trump didn't pick her for intimate conversations, given her standard of English and 2) Did you notice the bit where the commandant said kids got 2 phone calls a week if they and the parents satisfied all the criteria. How many satisfy the criteria was the question not asked, echoing in the silence. And if they did satisfy the criteria why couldn't they speak every day if they wanted? Was it designed to cause pain? To parents AND their children?
Face it, you've created concentration camps. So far the behaviour in them isn't THAT bad, but you are also training up concentration camp guards. So far they have only withheld affection from crying children and made jokes about it. The first steps on the road to hell, and that road has been laid and signposted by Trump.
Don't I remember photos of guards treating inmates like animals in both British and US ISIS suspect detention camps? ISIS itself routinely using torture of the most horrific kinds? All the evidence shows - and there is a huuge amount of evidence both academic and practical - that without intense oversight and training, these situations degenerate very fast.
Would you say that deliberately separating kids from their parents is going to cause both great pain and distress? With no guarantees they'd ever see eachother again?
How would you feel? To me it looks like torture.
I'm not having a go at you particularly. The British were as bad at our detention camp and in exactly the same ways, iirc. It's a horrible fact of human nature and the important thing is not to set up the situations it can happen in the first place. Trump has done it exceptionally badly and created a situation of inbuilt horror.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519704 wrote: Man that's a hell of a complex argument to get into. Bin Laden was a rich man from a rich family and in his attitudes both savage and degenerate, I'd say. But this is local and often little more than robber bands seeking some sort of respectability at one end of the scale. At the other, I suspect they are trying to establish a new powerbase - probably already have, though I gather the French in particular are active in the region. Don't think they can cover all of it though, which is an obvious problem.
Must admit I consider Islam, as practised by the likes of ISIS, is thoroughly degenerate whereas what I suppose I'd call modern Islam is as respectable as Christianity - which also has murderous cults, though none ever so organised and extensive as ISIS. Scientology is probably the closest Christian equivalent - and I suspect a lot of Christians wouldn't accept that Scientologists were Christians, any more than a lot of Muslims don't consider ISIS Muslim. chuckle. Remember the comment that got on the news a year or two back? "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Oh: possibly the Catholic Church in its Crusading and Inquisitorial phases was much the same as ISIS. Similar attitudes displayed.
According to the Catholic church if you are not a catholic you are a heretic and not a Christian - according to the Protestants if you are a Catholic you are not a true Christian. I could give you chapter and verse on what the differences But I won't bother. They're all as bad as each other both catholic and protestant committed atrocities against each other and against muslims as well, not to mention the holocaust which would be inconceivable without two thousand years of preaching that the jews killed Jesus. The pope ordered his priests to pray for hitler from the pulpits.
Bear in mind the attorney general sessions, is quoting the bible to justify what is being done just as some Christians used the bible was used to justify black slavery and later segregation in the south. The Nuremberg defence has also been used to defend the behaviour of those who are actually separating the children.
Meanwhile, in italy the fascists want to count the number of roma people and kick them out and in the UK the home office is throwing the children of the Windrush generation out the country. We maybe shouldn't be so ready to point fingers but at leaast our politicians pretend to feel guilty and apologise so that makes it all right then.
Must admit I consider Islam, as practised by the likes of ISIS, is thoroughly degenerate whereas what I suppose I'd call modern Islam is as respectable as Christianity - which also has murderous cults, though none ever so organised and extensive as ISIS. Scientology is probably the closest Christian equivalent - and I suspect a lot of Christians wouldn't accept that Scientologists were Christians, any more than a lot of Muslims don't consider ISIS Muslim. chuckle. Remember the comment that got on the news a year or two back? "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Oh: possibly the Catholic Church in its Crusading and Inquisitorial phases was much the same as ISIS. Similar attitudes displayed.
According to the Catholic church if you are not a catholic you are a heretic and not a Christian - according to the Protestants if you are a Catholic you are not a true Christian. I could give you chapter and verse on what the differences But I won't bother. They're all as bad as each other both catholic and protestant committed atrocities against each other and against muslims as well, not to mention the holocaust which would be inconceivable without two thousand years of preaching that the jews killed Jesus. The pope ordered his priests to pray for hitler from the pulpits.
Bear in mind the attorney general sessions, is quoting the bible to justify what is being done just as some Christians used the bible was used to justify black slavery and later segregation in the south. The Nuremberg defence has also been used to defend the behaviour of those who are actually separating the children.
Meanwhile, in italy the fascists want to count the number of roma people and kick them out and in the UK the home office is throwing the children of the Windrush generation out the country. We maybe shouldn't be so ready to point fingers but at leaast our politicians pretend to feel guilty and apologise so that makes it all right then.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
gmc;1519742 wrote: According to the Catholic church if you are not a catholic you are a heretic and not a Christian - according to the Protestants if you are a Catholic you are not a true Christian. I could give you chapter and verse on what the differences But I won't bother. They're all as bad as each other both catholic and protestant committed atrocities against each other and against muslims as well, not to mention the holocaust which would be inconceivable without two thousand years of preaching that the jews killed Jesus. The pope ordered his priests to pray for hitler from the pulpits.
Bear in mind the attorney general sessions, is quoting the bible to justify what is being done just as some Christians used the bible was used to justify black slavery and later segregation in the south. The Nuremberg defence has also been used to defend the behaviour of those who are actually separating the children.
Meanwhile, in italy the fascists want to count the number of roma people and kick them out and in the UK the home office is throwing the children of the Windrush generation out the country. We maybe shouldn't be so ready to point fingers but at leaast our politicians pretend to feel guilty and apologise so that makes it all right then.
Oh yeah, every one of us is due in hell according to one sect or another. Not my point. My point is that ISIS now has a lot in common with Christianity then. Curiously enough (and I've mentioned this before) Islam now is about the same age as a religion as Christianity was when it had a crusading phase. There's some evidence that religions age in predictable ways, like cheese.
Bigots of every religion read their holy books to suit themselves and always have. They always have the same face, whatever the religion, filled with self-righteousness and damning the unbeliever. CS Lewis thought that a good act, done in the name of a devil, was worship of God, and also, an evil act done in the name of the God of Love who cares for His children was in reality, devil-worship. I quite like it because if you jump a few steps on, all religious bigots are devil worshippers. Which rather fits, imo.
You don't have to be religious to see corruption as something evil that spreads all too easily, like an oil spill. Everything about Trump's life I'm aware of says he was born to a corrupt father, never had a moral compass, always thought money was what gave you class as a person (I'm not talking social class here) and having money was the only important thing and would and shouldmake everyone admire and respect you. He certainly acts as if that's how he looks at the world. Where's morality in that? Nowhere. I don't think he has any concept of morality beyond money.
And he's not just an abuser of women, systems, anything he feels like abusing, he grooms the young to abuse as well: remember that tape of him boasting about being able to grab women wherever because he was rich - to a young member of the Bush family?
Basically, moral, ethical, financial, personal... every sort of corruption is now pouring out of the White House 24/7 like a thick, black, sticky, stinking oil slick.
Bear in mind the attorney general sessions, is quoting the bible to justify what is being done just as some Christians used the bible was used to justify black slavery and later segregation in the south. The Nuremberg defence has also been used to defend the behaviour of those who are actually separating the children.
Meanwhile, in italy the fascists want to count the number of roma people and kick them out and in the UK the home office is throwing the children of the Windrush generation out the country. We maybe shouldn't be so ready to point fingers but at leaast our politicians pretend to feel guilty and apologise so that makes it all right then.
Oh yeah, every one of us is due in hell according to one sect or another. Not my point. My point is that ISIS now has a lot in common with Christianity then. Curiously enough (and I've mentioned this before) Islam now is about the same age as a religion as Christianity was when it had a crusading phase. There's some evidence that religions age in predictable ways, like cheese.
Bigots of every religion read their holy books to suit themselves and always have. They always have the same face, whatever the religion, filled with self-righteousness and damning the unbeliever. CS Lewis thought that a good act, done in the name of a devil, was worship of God, and also, an evil act done in the name of the God of Love who cares for His children was in reality, devil-worship. I quite like it because if you jump a few steps on, all religious bigots are devil worshippers. Which rather fits, imo.
You don't have to be religious to see corruption as something evil that spreads all too easily, like an oil spill. Everything about Trump's life I'm aware of says he was born to a corrupt father, never had a moral compass, always thought money was what gave you class as a person (I'm not talking social class here) and having money was the only important thing and would and shouldmake everyone admire and respect you. He certainly acts as if that's how he looks at the world. Where's morality in that? Nowhere. I don't think he has any concept of morality beyond money.
And he's not just an abuser of women, systems, anything he feels like abusing, he grooms the young to abuse as well: remember that tape of him boasting about being able to grab women wherever because he was rich - to a young member of the Bush family?
Basically, moral, ethical, financial, personal... every sort of corruption is now pouring out of the White House 24/7 like a thick, black, sticky, stinking oil slick.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
It seems that the North Koreans are complaining that the Americans are being very rude and demanding and the first talks between Pompeo and the N.Koreans to settle the remaining minor issues now that Trump has single-handedly denuclearised the Korean peninsula did not go well.
Must be translation issues. After all Trump himself declared the issue solved!
Must be translation issues. After all Trump himself declared the issue solved!
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Well, that was an interesting G7
Posted by clodhopper
Oh yeah, every one of us is due in hell according to one sect or another. Not my point. My point is that ISIS now has a lot in common with Christianity then. Curiously enough (and I've mentioned this before) Islam now is about the same age as a religion as Christianity was when it had a crusading phase. There's some evidence that religions age in predictable ways, like cheese.
Actually, the split between Sunni and Shia is very similar to that between catholic and protestant - do you find your way to god by reading the koran for yourself or do you depend on an iman to interpret it for you.
Looks like america is in danger of the separation of church and state going out the window.
Oh yeah, every one of us is due in hell according to one sect or another. Not my point. My point is that ISIS now has a lot in common with Christianity then. Curiously enough (and I've mentioned this before) Islam now is about the same age as a religion as Christianity was when it had a crusading phase. There's some evidence that religions age in predictable ways, like cheese.
Actually, the split between Sunni and Shia is very similar to that between catholic and protestant - do you find your way to god by reading the koran for yourself or do you depend on an iman to interpret it for you.
Looks like america is in danger of the separation of church and state going out the window.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
A sample size of two is too small for any hard conclusions but it is curious that there are these similarities between major monotheistic religions.
And yes, there is something of a concern about the separation of powers in the US at present. I'm wondering how long before Trump declares himself Supreme Head of the Church in America...on a related note did you see Pruitt's resignation letter?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/text-ep ... d=56393788
He seems to think Trump is the messiah, or similar. What I found REALLY creepy is that it reminded me of letters from Nazi officials to Hitler.
And yes, there is something of a concern about the separation of powers in the US at present. I'm wondering how long before Trump declares himself Supreme Head of the Church in America...on a related note did you see Pruitt's resignation letter?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/text-ep ... d=56393788
He seems to think Trump is the messiah, or similar. What I found REALLY creepy is that it reminded me of letters from Nazi officials to Hitler.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
I've been enjoying reading your comments, Clodhopper & I always find myself in agreement with your assessments of the country I live in.
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519893 wrote: A sample size of two is too small for any hard conclusions but it is curious that there are these similarities between major monotheistic religions.
And yes, there is something of a concern about the separation of powers in the US at present. I'm wondering how long before Trump declares himself Supreme Head of the Church in America...on a related note did you see Pruitt's resignation letter?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/text-ep ... d=56393788
He seems to think Trump is the messiah, or similar. What I found REALLY creepy is that it reminded me of letters from Nazi officials to Hitler.
There are a number of Xtians who are convinced that Trump is that second coming, or some such. Members of my family are among them. I am guaranteed a seat on the train to perdition if I fail to get in line, according to one cousin.
And yes, there is something of a concern about the separation of powers in the US at present. I'm wondering how long before Trump declares himself Supreme Head of the Church in America...on a related note did you see Pruitt's resignation letter?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/text-ep ... d=56393788
He seems to think Trump is the messiah, or similar. What I found REALLY creepy is that it reminded me of letters from Nazi officials to Hitler.
There are a number of Xtians who are convinced that Trump is that second coming, or some such. Members of my family are among them. I am guaranteed a seat on the train to perdition if I fail to get in line, according to one cousin.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
LarsMac;1519900 wrote: There are a number of Xtians who are convinced that Trump is that second coming, or some such. Members of my family are among them. I am guaranteed a seat on the train to perdition if I fail to get in line, according to one cousin.
...I'll save you a cushion if I'm there first.
Hell isn't such a concern in these days of air conditioning.
...I'll save you a cushion if I'm there first.
Hell isn't such a concern in these days of air conditioning.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
AnneBoleyn;1519897 wrote: I've been enjoying reading your comments, Clodhopper & I always find myself in agreement with your assessments of the country I live in.
...sorry...
Tough times. But they did get those Thai kids out of that cave and that is cause to smile
...sorry...
Tough times. But they did get those Thai kids out of that cave and that is cause to smile
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519910 wrote: ...I'll save you a cushion if I'm there first.
Hell isn't such a concern in these days of air conditioning.
And youll know everyone...sort of like a big old reunion bbq.
Lucky for me i missed the whole G7 thingy.
Hell isn't such a concern in these days of air conditioning.
And youll know everyone...sort of like a big old reunion bbq.
Lucky for me i missed the whole G7 thingy.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
...uptaking slowly...
Larsmac's point about relatives of his genuinely believing that unless you follow Trump you will go to Hell has taken a while to register because it is so strange to me. Lars' relative wasn't joking, he meant it.
Trump really has started a new religion based on far right Christianity. Does that make him an AntiChrist?
Larsmac's point about relatives of his genuinely believing that unless you follow Trump you will go to Hell has taken a while to register because it is so strange to me. Lars' relative wasn't joking, he meant it.
Trump really has started a new religion based on far right Christianity. Does that make him an AntiChrist?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519945 wrote:
Trump...Does that make him an AntiChrist?
Yes.
Trump...Does that make him an AntiChrist?
Yes.
Well, that was an interesting G7
Clodhopper;1519945 wrote: ...uptaking slowly...
Larsmac's point about relatives of his genuinely believing that unless you follow Trump you will go to Hell has taken a while to register because it is so strange to me. Lars' relative wasn't joking, he meant it.
Trump really has started a new religion based on far right Christianity. Does that make him an AntiChrist?
And it's not just my family (in case you were wondering)
A certain regular around these parts seems to be leaning that direction, as well.
Larsmac's point about relatives of his genuinely believing that unless you follow Trump you will go to Hell has taken a while to register because it is so strange to me. Lars' relative wasn't joking, he meant it.
Trump really has started a new religion based on far right Christianity. Does that make him an AntiChrist?
And it's not just my family (in case you were wondering)
A certain regular around these parts seems to be leaning that direction, as well.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence