I appreciate some of the US posters would not recognise a fascist if they met one. This might help.
https://www.indy100.com/article/donald- ... um-7554621
The list is from the holocaust museum.
Powerful and continuing nationalism
Disdain for human rights
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
Supremacy of the military
Rampant sexism
Controlled mass media
Obsession with national security
Religion and government intertwined
Corporate power protected
Labor [sic] power suppressed
Disdain for intellectuals & the arts
Obsession with crime & punishment
Early warning signs of fascism.
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Mark Aspam
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Early warning signs of fascism.
gmc;1514385 wrote: I appreciate some of the US posters would not recognise a fascist if they met one. This might help. The list is from the holocaust museum.Well, it's a good list.
But can you be specific regarding which of these you feel that US posters in general are or may be unaware?
I'm not saying that there aren't any, nor am I asking for names. The list IN GENERAL seems pretty accurate to me, though MANY more items could be added.
But why single out Americans?
But can you be specific regarding which of these you feel that US posters in general are or may be unaware?
I'm not saying that there aren't any, nor am I asking for names. The list IN GENERAL seems pretty accurate to me, though MANY more items could be added.
But why single out Americans?
Early warning signs of fascism.
As a Brit I recognise a worrying rise in quite a few in that list.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Mark Aspam
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- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Early warning signs of fascism.
Bruv;1514391 wrote: As a Brit I recognise a worrying rise in quite a few in that list.In general or in the USA? If the latter, please give some examples.
I see several on the list that I cannot by ANY stretch of the imagination apply to the USA.
There's certainly no controlled mass media - quite the opposite.
I see several on the list that I cannot by ANY stretch of the imagination apply to the USA.
There's certainly no controlled mass media - quite the opposite.
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magentaflame
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- Location: Victoria, Australia
Early warning signs of fascism.
Bruv;1514391 wrote: As a Brit I recognise a worrying rise in quite a few in that list.
Yep here too.
we used to have a police force for every state with of course all their different departments.....I've lost count now of all the different law enforcement 'agencies'. It's gotten so silly ......................and a little bit scary.
Yep here too.
we used to have a police force for every state with of course all their different departments.....I've lost count now of all the different law enforcement 'agencies'. It's gotten so silly ......................and a little bit scary.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Early warning signs of fascism.
Not in the USA but definitely the UK, although you might be standing too close to see your own.
The rise of nationalism, enemy as a unifying cause (Islam), mass media in a few rich hands, Corporations protected, workers power suppressed, cronyism & corruption, election fraud claims, sexism raising it's head, and finally.......... concerns for immigrant human rights.
The rise of nationalism, enemy as a unifying cause (Islam), mass media in a few rich hands, Corporations protected, workers power suppressed, cronyism & corruption, election fraud claims, sexism raising it's head, and finally.......... concerns for immigrant human rights.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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magentaflame
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- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
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Early warning signs of fascism.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/th ... 58648b817b
As tyrants take control of democracies, they typically:
1. Exaggerate their mandate to govern – claiming, for example, that they won an election by a landslide even after losing the popular vote.
2. Repeatedly claim massive voter fraud in the absence of any evidence, in order to restrict voting in subsequent elections.
3. Call anyone who opposes them “enemies.â€
4. Turn the public against journalists or media outlets that criticize them, calling them “deceitful†and “scum.â€
5. Hold few if any press conferences, preferring to communicate with the public directly through mass rallies and unfiltered statements.
6. Tell the public big lies, causing them to doubt the truth and to believe fictions that support the tyrants’ goals.
7. Blame economic stresses on immigrants or racial or religious minorities, and foment public bias and even violence against them.
8. Attribute acts of domestic violence to “enemies within,†and use such events as excuses to beef up internal security and limit civil liberties.
9. Threaten mass deportations, registries of religious minorities, and the banning of refugees.
10. Seek to eliminate or reduce the influence of competing centers of power, such as labor unions and opposition parties.
11. Appoint family members to high positions of authority
12. Surround themselves with their own personal security force rather than a security detail accountable to the public.
13. Put generals into top civilian posts
14. Make personal alliances with foreign dictators.
15. Draw no distinction between personal property and public property, profiteering from their public office.
Maybe that's more of an American opinion?
As tyrants take control of democracies, they typically:
1. Exaggerate their mandate to govern – claiming, for example, that they won an election by a landslide even after losing the popular vote.
2. Repeatedly claim massive voter fraud in the absence of any evidence, in order to restrict voting in subsequent elections.
3. Call anyone who opposes them “enemies.â€
4. Turn the public against journalists or media outlets that criticize them, calling them “deceitful†and “scum.â€
5. Hold few if any press conferences, preferring to communicate with the public directly through mass rallies and unfiltered statements.
6. Tell the public big lies, causing them to doubt the truth and to believe fictions that support the tyrants’ goals.
7. Blame economic stresses on immigrants or racial or religious minorities, and foment public bias and even violence against them.
8. Attribute acts of domestic violence to “enemies within,†and use such events as excuses to beef up internal security and limit civil liberties.
9. Threaten mass deportations, registries of religious minorities, and the banning of refugees.
10. Seek to eliminate or reduce the influence of competing centers of power, such as labor unions and opposition parties.
11. Appoint family members to high positions of authority
12. Surround themselves with their own personal security force rather than a security detail accountable to the public.
13. Put generals into top civilian posts
14. Make personal alliances with foreign dictators.
15. Draw no distinction between personal property and public property, profiteering from their public office.
Maybe that's more of an American opinion?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Early warning signs of fascism.
There are many signs in far too many countries to name, I think.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514386 wrote: Well, it's a good list.
But can you be specific regarding which of these you feel that US posters in general are or may be unaware?
I'm not saying that there aren't any, nor am I asking for names. The list IN GENERAL seems pretty accurate to me, though MANY more items could be added.
But why single out Americans?
I singled out americans not out od any disdain but to provoke a general discussion.Apart from british and american and then odd antipodean there isn't any other nationality to discuss these things with on the forum.
Most of the british posters know what the terms socialism and fascism, left and right are all about and we have a common ground for discussio. Americans - or some anyway- seem to conflate liberalism/socialism/communism and don't recognise right wing ideology for what it is. As to your question I would say
Powerful and continuing nationalism
Disdain for human rights
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
Supremacy of the military
Rampant sexism
Controlled mass media
Obsession with national security
Religion and government intertwined
Corporate power protected
Labor [sic] power suppressed
Disdain for intellectuals & the arts
Obsession with crime & punishment
Actually all of them except maybe a controlled mass media but that doesn't have to be controlled by the government being controlled by a few individual companies or individuals is a variation on the theme. Maybe not supremacy of the military either but to outside eyes the us is very much a militaristic society. I would also add power and wealth being contrated into a few hands to the detriment of society as a whole.
Bear in mind I am using a very broad brush I'm not intending tio insult anyone. I can find sectors of our society that display all the characteristics as well we have our poppy fascists trying to re-write the history of ww1 as a glorious victory for democracy - that most of the combatants were not allowed to vote, amongst other things, escapes their memory all too readily. There were mutinies in the armies of all sides and the remembreance day was started not as a jingoistic patriotic celebration but to remember the fallen and the utter pointless obscenity of it all - the last recognisable imperialist war. then we had ww2 and the emopires are arming for war yet again. (dramatic eh) The irony is of course that the nazis are still around and running rampant yet again exceot this time the opposition seems emasculated. Those of liberal views are always slow to pick up arms but they always do in the end.
At least our right wing nutjobs and racist thugs can't get their hands on guns and our police are unarmed so that they cannot be used to suppress the populace.
But can you be specific regarding which of these you feel that US posters in general are or may be unaware?
I'm not saying that there aren't any, nor am I asking for names. The list IN GENERAL seems pretty accurate to me, though MANY more items could be added.
But why single out Americans?
I singled out americans not out od any disdain but to provoke a general discussion.Apart from british and american and then odd antipodean there isn't any other nationality to discuss these things with on the forum.
Most of the british posters know what the terms socialism and fascism, left and right are all about and we have a common ground for discussio. Americans - or some anyway- seem to conflate liberalism/socialism/communism and don't recognise right wing ideology for what it is. As to your question I would say
Powerful and continuing nationalism
Disdain for human rights
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
Supremacy of the military
Rampant sexism
Controlled mass media
Obsession with national security
Religion and government intertwined
Corporate power protected
Labor [sic] power suppressed
Disdain for intellectuals & the arts
Obsession with crime & punishment
Actually all of them except maybe a controlled mass media but that doesn't have to be controlled by the government being controlled by a few individual companies or individuals is a variation on the theme. Maybe not supremacy of the military either but to outside eyes the us is very much a militaristic society. I would also add power and wealth being contrated into a few hands to the detriment of society as a whole.
Bear in mind I am using a very broad brush I'm not intending tio insult anyone. I can find sectors of our society that display all the characteristics as well we have our poppy fascists trying to re-write the history of ww1 as a glorious victory for democracy - that most of the combatants were not allowed to vote, amongst other things, escapes their memory all too readily. There were mutinies in the armies of all sides and the remembreance day was started not as a jingoistic patriotic celebration but to remember the fallen and the utter pointless obscenity of it all - the last recognisable imperialist war. then we had ww2 and the emopires are arming for war yet again. (dramatic eh) The irony is of course that the nazis are still around and running rampant yet again exceot this time the opposition seems emasculated. Those of liberal views are always slow to pick up arms but they always do in the end.
At least our right wing nutjobs and racist thugs can't get their hands on guns and our police are unarmed so that they cannot be used to suppress the populace.
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magentaflame
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- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Early warning signs of fascism.
We have one more aspect of this that has yet to come. Convince the upper middle classes that the poor are about to rise up. Then you will know without a doubt.
In America the poorest seem to be black (in most parts) There are already rumblings in the populace all around the world on the subject of the Rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer without any real logical explanation for it.
It will come and the leaders know it....Hence the points being made in that list.
In America the poorest seem to be black (in most parts) There are already rumblings in the populace all around the world on the subject of the Rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer without any real logical explanation for it.
It will come and the leaders know it....Hence the points being made in that list.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
-
Mark Aspam
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Early warning signs of fascism.
magentaflame;1514395 wrote: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/th ... 58648b817b
As tyrants take control of democracies, they typically:
1. Exaggerate their mandate to govern – claiming, for example, that they won an election by a landslide even after losing the popular vote.
2. Repeatedly claim massive voter fraud in the absence of any evidence, in order to restrict voting in subsequent elections.
3. Call anyone who opposes them “enemies.â€
4. Turn the public against journalists or media outlets that criticize them, calling them “deceitful†and “scum.â€
5. Hold few if any press conferences, preferring to communicate with the public directly through mass rallies and unfiltered statements.
6. Tell the public big lies, causing them to doubt the truth and to believe fictions that support the tyrants’ goals.
7. Blame economic stresses on immigrants or racial or religious minorities, and foment public bias and even violence against them.
8. Attribute acts of domestic violence to “enemies within,†and use such events as excuses to beef up internal security and limit civil liberties.
9. Threaten mass deportations, registries of religious minorities, and the banning of refugees.
10. Seek to eliminate or reduce the influence of competing centers of power, such as labor unions and opposition parties.
11. Appoint family members to high positions of authority
12. Surround themselves with their own personal security force rather than a security detail accountable to the public.
13. Put generals into top civilian posts
14. Make personal alliances with foreign dictators.
15. Draw no distinction between personal property and public property, profiteering from their public office.
Maybe that's more of an American opinion?AH! Now I get it. That's typical Huffington, and I admire her style while not always agreeing.
She seems to be warning of a Trump dictatorship, which of course is NOT going to happen; in fact, he will be lucky to complete his first term. As I remarked to someone on an earlier thread, being half-way around the world is not really the best place to be in order to understand how the USA works. We've never had a dictator, with the possible exception of FDR, nor are we about to have one anytime soon.
As tyrants take control of democracies, they typically:
1. Exaggerate their mandate to govern – claiming, for example, that they won an election by a landslide even after losing the popular vote.
2. Repeatedly claim massive voter fraud in the absence of any evidence, in order to restrict voting in subsequent elections.
3. Call anyone who opposes them “enemies.â€
4. Turn the public against journalists or media outlets that criticize them, calling them “deceitful†and “scum.â€
5. Hold few if any press conferences, preferring to communicate with the public directly through mass rallies and unfiltered statements.
6. Tell the public big lies, causing them to doubt the truth and to believe fictions that support the tyrants’ goals.
7. Blame economic stresses on immigrants or racial or religious minorities, and foment public bias and even violence against them.
8. Attribute acts of domestic violence to “enemies within,†and use such events as excuses to beef up internal security and limit civil liberties.
9. Threaten mass deportations, registries of religious minorities, and the banning of refugees.
10. Seek to eliminate or reduce the influence of competing centers of power, such as labor unions and opposition parties.
11. Appoint family members to high positions of authority
12. Surround themselves with their own personal security force rather than a security detail accountable to the public.
13. Put generals into top civilian posts
14. Make personal alliances with foreign dictators.
15. Draw no distinction between personal property and public property, profiteering from their public office.
Maybe that's more of an American opinion?AH! Now I get it. That's typical Huffington, and I admire her style while not always agreeing.
She seems to be warning of a Trump dictatorship, which of course is NOT going to happen; in fact, he will be lucky to complete his first term. As I remarked to someone on an earlier thread, being half-way around the world is not really the best place to be in order to understand how the USA works. We've never had a dictator, with the possible exception of FDR, nor are we about to have one anytime soon.
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magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Early warning signs of fascism.
i believe you already have one.
He's already alienated his allies......that's never a good thing . So if you want to come from the point of view that "half way around the world" nobody has any idea, is flawed, because his reach is far and wide. The problem is, Americans aren't made aware of his foreign policies affecting countries around the world.
Here's something to read.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-04/d ... pt/8773422
He's already alienated his allies......that's never a good thing . So if you want to come from the point of view that "half way around the world" nobody has any idea, is flawed, because his reach is far and wide. The problem is, Americans aren't made aware of his foreign policies affecting countries around the world.
Here's something to read.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-04/d ... pt/8773422
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514399 wrote: AH! Now I get it. That's typical Huffington, and I admire her style while not always agreeing.
She seems to be warning of a Trump dictatorship, which of course is NOT going to happen; in fact, he will be lucky to complete his first term. As I remarked to someone on an earlier thread, being half-way around the world is not really the best place to be in order to understand how the USA works. We've never had a dictator, with the possible exception of FDR, nor are we about to have one anytime soon.
Well, I sure hope you're right. But, I live in the middle of Trump, USA. People around here seem to think that he is the second coming.
People around he listen to him.
And that list seems like a checklist of items he and his little tribe are trying to do.
She seems to be warning of a Trump dictatorship, which of course is NOT going to happen; in fact, he will be lucky to complete his first term. As I remarked to someone on an earlier thread, being half-way around the world is not really the best place to be in order to understand how the USA works. We've never had a dictator, with the possible exception of FDR, nor are we about to have one anytime soon.
Well, I sure hope you're right. But, I live in the middle of Trump, USA. People around here seem to think that he is the second coming.
People around he listen to him.
And that list seems like a checklist of items he and his little tribe are trying to do.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
Mark Aspam
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Early warning signs of fascism.
LarsMac;1514409 wrote: Well, I sure hope you're right. But, I live in the middle of Trump, USA. People around here seem to think that he is the second coming.
People around he listen to him.
And that list seems like a checklist of items he and his little tribe are trying to do.You do not identify your location, here in central Illinois that is not the case at all, but NATION-WIDE statistics by reputable pollsters show, the last time I checked, support for Trump WAY below 50%, and that is not likely to improve, more likely the opposite.
This is why, with no offense intended to mag, I continue to maintain that overseas opinions on USA politics are often way off base, just as I myself probably have an inaccurate view of political goings-on in GB (and also Australia).
The US senate, as far as I know, can begin impeachment proceedings at any time, just as happened with Nixon and some earlier slimeball officeholders. Of course, to do so the senate would have to have something impeachable, which to my knowledge is lacking right now, so we shall see.
People around he listen to him.
And that list seems like a checklist of items he and his little tribe are trying to do.You do not identify your location, here in central Illinois that is not the case at all, but NATION-WIDE statistics by reputable pollsters show, the last time I checked, support for Trump WAY below 50%, and that is not likely to improve, more likely the opposite.
This is why, with no offense intended to mag, I continue to maintain that overseas opinions on USA politics are often way off base, just as I myself probably have an inaccurate view of political goings-on in GB (and also Australia).
The US senate, as far as I know, can begin impeachment proceedings at any time, just as happened with Nixon and some earlier slimeball officeholders. Of course, to do so the senate would have to have something impeachable, which to my knowledge is lacking right now, so we shall see.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514399 wrote: AH! Now I get it. That's typical Huffington, and I admire her style while not always agreeing.
She seems to be warning of a Trump dictatorship, which of course is NOT going to happen; in fact, he will be lucky to complete his first term. As I remarked to someone on an earlier thread, being half-way around the world is not really the best place to be in order to understand how the USA works. We've never had a dictator, with the possible exception of FDR, nor are we about to have one anytime soon.
No you don't. You use a classic tactic - don't answer the argument undermine the source thgat's what trump does you might as well shout fake news.
How about the list I used that was from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, Hardly half way around the world. Why do you think he won't finish his first term?You seem to be assuming he respects the constitution.
Election Day: What Donald Trump Says Will Happen If He Loses | Time
Trump declined to promise at the final presidential debate that he would accept the election results regardless of outcome. “I’ll keep you in suspense,†he said. The following day at a rally in Ohio, he elaborated: “I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election — if I win,†he said.
The US senate, as far as I know, can begin impeachment proceedings at any time, just as happened with Nixon and some earlier slimeball officeholders. Of course, to do so the senate would have to have something impeachable, which to my knowledge is lacking right now, so we shall see.
So having russia help him doesn't count?
She seems to be warning of a Trump dictatorship, which of course is NOT going to happen; in fact, he will be lucky to complete his first term. As I remarked to someone on an earlier thread, being half-way around the world is not really the best place to be in order to understand how the USA works. We've never had a dictator, with the possible exception of FDR, nor are we about to have one anytime soon.
No you don't. You use a classic tactic - don't answer the argument undermine the source thgat's what trump does you might as well shout fake news.
How about the list I used that was from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, Hardly half way around the world. Why do you think he won't finish his first term?You seem to be assuming he respects the constitution.
Election Day: What Donald Trump Says Will Happen If He Loses | Time
Trump declined to promise at the final presidential debate that he would accept the election results regardless of outcome. “I’ll keep you in suspense,†he said. The following day at a rally in Ohio, he elaborated: “I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election — if I win,†he said.
The US senate, as far as I know, can begin impeachment proceedings at any time, just as happened with Nixon and some earlier slimeball officeholders. Of course, to do so the senate would have to have something impeachable, which to my knowledge is lacking right now, so we shall see.
So having russia help him doesn't count?
-
Mark Aspam
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Early warning signs of fascism.
gmc;1514421 wrote: 1. How about the list I used that was from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, Hardly half way around the world. Why do you think he won't finish his first term?You seem to be assuming he respects the constitution.
2. So having russia help him doesn't count?1. I saw the list and I pointed out that virtually none of it applied to Trump or any other American politician. You are making my central point for me, you don't seem to understand how the American political system works.
2. That has not been proven. If proven he will very likely be out.
2. So having russia help him doesn't count?1. I saw the list and I pointed out that virtually none of it applied to Trump or any other American politician. You are making my central point for me, you don't seem to understand how the American political system works.
2. That has not been proven. If proven he will very likely be out.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514431 wrote: 1. I saw the list and I pointed out that virtually none of it applied to Trump or any other American politician. You are making my central point for me, you don't seem to understand how the American political system works.
2. That has not been proven. If proven he will very likely be out.
So, you've not seen any of the items on that list apply to any of the Trump administration's activities in the last 9 months?
2. That has not been proven. If proven he will very likely be out.
So, you've not seen any of the items on that list apply to any of the Trump administration's activities in the last 9 months?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
Mark Aspam
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Early warning signs of fascism.
LarsMac;1514432 wrote: So, you've not seen any of the items on that list apply to any of the Trump administration's activities in the last 9 months?The list refers specifically to tyrants. The USA is not about to be ruled by tyrants. I could easily take one or more of the items on the list and apply it to pretty much any politician that I didn't like for one reason or another, certainly including Trump, but that is just political bullsh*t.
Who is going to overthrow our government, and by what means? Hmm?
Who is going to overthrow our government, and by what means? Hmm?
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514437 wrote: The list refers specifically to tyrants. The USA is not about to be ruled by tyrants. I could easily take one or more of the items on the list and apply it to pretty much any politician that I didn't like for one reason or another, certainly including Trump, but that is just political bullsh*t.
Who is going to overthrow our government, and by what means? Hmm?But whatever you do, don't get caught napping. There is a very strong nationalistic trend happening in the US. Law enforcement has been quite selective about who and what they apply a heavy hand to, and not.
I meet lots of people in my service business (what is said to me because I'm a veteran and nationalistic minded people feel comfortable confiding in me) is often rather alarming.
Who is going to overthrow our government, and by what means? Hmm?But whatever you do, don't get caught napping. There is a very strong nationalistic trend happening in the US. Law enforcement has been quite selective about who and what they apply a heavy hand to, and not.
I meet lots of people in my service business (what is said to me because I'm a veteran and nationalistic minded people feel comfortable confiding in me) is often rather alarming.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514437 wrote: The list refers specifically to tyrants. The USA is not about to be ruled by tyrants. I could easily take one or more of the items on the list and apply it to pretty much any politician that I didn't like for one reason or another, certainly including Trump, but that is just political bullsh*t.
Who is going to overthrow our government, and by what means? Hmm?
Actually the list refers, specifically, to the types of activities in a society that, if allowed to continue, enable tyrants to succeed.
Who is going to overthrow our government, and by what means? Hmm?
Actually the list refers, specifically, to the types of activities in a society that, if allowed to continue, enable tyrants to succeed.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Early warning signs of fascism.
Trump clearly qualifies on most of that list.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Early warning signs of fascism.
magentaflame;1514395 wrote: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/th ... 58648b817b
As tyrants take control of democracies, they typically:
1. Exaggerate their mandate to govern – claiming, for example, that they won an election by a landslide even after losing the popular vote.
2. Repeatedly claim massive voter fraud in the absence of any evidence, in order to restrict voting in subsequent elections.
3. Call anyone who opposes them “enemies.â€
4. Turn the public against journalists or media outlets that criticize them, calling them “deceitful†and “scum.â€
5. Hold few if any press conferences, preferring to communicate with the public directly through mass rallies and unfiltered statements.
6. Tell the public big lies, causing them to doubt the truth and to believe fictions that support the tyrants’ goals.
7. Blame economic stresses on immigrants or racial or religious minorities, and foment public bias and even violence against them.
8. Attribute acts of domestic violence to “enemies within,†and use such events as excuses to beef up internal security and limit civil liberties.
9. Threaten mass deportations, registries of religious minorities, and the banning of refugees.
10. Seek to eliminate or reduce the influence of competing centers of power, such as labor unions and opposition parties.
11. Appoint family members to high positions of authority
12. Surround themselves with their own personal security force rather than a security detail accountable to the public.
13. Put generals into top civilian posts
14. Make personal alliances with foreign dictators.
15. Draw no distinction between personal property and public property, profiteering from their public office.
Maybe that's more of an American opinion?
Just thought I'd remind Mark Aspam
As tyrants take control of democracies, they typically:
1. Exaggerate their mandate to govern – claiming, for example, that they won an election by a landslide even after losing the popular vote.
2. Repeatedly claim massive voter fraud in the absence of any evidence, in order to restrict voting in subsequent elections.
3. Call anyone who opposes them “enemies.â€
4. Turn the public against journalists or media outlets that criticize them, calling them “deceitful†and “scum.â€
5. Hold few if any press conferences, preferring to communicate with the public directly through mass rallies and unfiltered statements.
6. Tell the public big lies, causing them to doubt the truth and to believe fictions that support the tyrants’ goals.
7. Blame economic stresses on immigrants or racial or religious minorities, and foment public bias and even violence against them.
8. Attribute acts of domestic violence to “enemies within,†and use such events as excuses to beef up internal security and limit civil liberties.
9. Threaten mass deportations, registries of religious minorities, and the banning of refugees.
10. Seek to eliminate or reduce the influence of competing centers of power, such as labor unions and opposition parties.
11. Appoint family members to high positions of authority
12. Surround themselves with their own personal security force rather than a security detail accountable to the public.
13. Put generals into top civilian posts
14. Make personal alliances with foreign dictators.
15. Draw no distinction between personal property and public property, profiteering from their public office.
Maybe that's more of an American opinion?
Just thought I'd remind Mark Aspam
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Mark Aspam
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magentaflame;1514454 wrote: Just thought I'd remind Mark AspamWell first of all, there are two "lists" in this thread, similar but not identical.
The first MAY BE from the Holocaust Museum as gmc claims.The second seems to be roughly based on the first with some twists, paraphrases and additions.
But I don't understand the 'reminder'. If I understand you correctly, you are just reinforcing my point - that many non-Americans seem ignorant, or perhaps misinformed - as to how the American government works.
A tyrant or dictatorship in the USA is virtually impossible. Of course it is possible to call names, that is in most cases mere political babble, as I remarked earlier.
The first MAY BE from the Holocaust Museum as gmc claims.The second seems to be roughly based on the first with some twists, paraphrases and additions.
But I don't understand the 'reminder'. If I understand you correctly, you are just reinforcing my point - that many non-Americans seem ignorant, or perhaps misinformed - as to how the American government works.
A tyrant or dictatorship in the USA is virtually impossible. Of course it is possible to call names, that is in most cases mere political babble, as I remarked earlier.
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Clodhopper
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You are quite close to dictatorship in the US now. Your system at present is stopping it happening but if key legal, political and administrative appointments were to end up in the wrong hands your checks and balances wouldn't happen and there seem to be those who have an idea of what those appointments are.
Not saying it will happen, just complacency is unwise. As we have learned over here. And I do think there are connections between Trump's election and brexit.
Not saying it will happen, just complacency is unwise. As we have learned over here. And I do think there are connections between Trump's election and brexit.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Mark Aspam
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Clodhopper;1514497 wrote: You are quite close to dictatorship in the US now. With all due respect, I think you've hopped one too many clods.
I didn't quote the rest of your post because it is so general as to be meaningless. But I will certainly read anything SPECIFIC about what you think will occur in the USA's near future.
Then we can wait and see if you're right. Fair?
I didn't quote the rest of your post because it is so general as to be meaningless. But I will certainly read anything SPECIFIC about what you think will occur in the USA's near future.
Then we can wait and see if you're right. Fair?
Early warning signs of fascism.
If you just go by Trump's tweets, it seems that his desires fall nicely into the list.
I hope the restraints built into the system mitigate most of those desires.
I hope the restraints built into the system mitigate most of those desires.
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Mark Aspam
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Wandrin;1514508 wrote: If you just go by Trump's tweets, it seems that his desires fall nicely into the list.
I hope the restraints built into the system mitigate most of those desires.Very well put, and Trump becomes more and more vulnerable to impeachment day by day.
Richard Nixon, by far our worst president prior to Trump, actually hired some two-bit thugs to break into a psychiatrist's office and steal his files. As I recall he resigned just ahead of impeachment. Sad, since he DID open the door to Communist China, pretty much the only good thing he ever accomplished.
Trump has accomplished nothing and will keep on doing so until stopped. Hopefully, impeachment is not far off.
I hope the restraints built into the system mitigate most of those desires.Very well put, and Trump becomes more and more vulnerable to impeachment day by day.
Richard Nixon, by far our worst president prior to Trump, actually hired some two-bit thugs to break into a psychiatrist's office and steal his files. As I recall he resigned just ahead of impeachment. Sad, since he DID open the door to Communist China, pretty much the only good thing he ever accomplished.
Trump has accomplished nothing and will keep on doing so until stopped. Hopefully, impeachment is not far off.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514512 wrote: Richard Nixon, by far our worst president prior to Trump,Nixon was bad, yes, but worse than Reagan, the Bushes or Andrew Jackson?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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Mark Aspam
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Ahso!;1514514 wrote: Nixon was bad, yes, but worse than Reagan, the Bushes or Andrew Jackson?Let's not forget Harding.
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Mark Aspam
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BULLETIN: Noon D.C. time: CBS reports that impeachment proceedings against Trump have begun.
There will, no doubt, be much more information on the evening news.
There will, no doubt, be much more information on the evening news.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514551 wrote: BULLETIN: Noon D.C. time: CBS reports that impeachment proceedings against Trump have begun.
There will, no doubt, be much more information on the evening news.
We must live in different universes.
I see nothing of the sort on any of the news wires.
There will, no doubt, be much more information on the evening news.
We must live in different universes.
I see nothing of the sort on any of the news wires.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Early warning signs of fascism.
LarsMac;1514553 wrote: We must live in different universes.
I see nothing of the sort on any of the news wires.It's just political jockeying.
https://www.google.com/search?q=BULLETI ... e&ie=UTF-8
I see nothing of the sort on any of the news wires.It's just political jockeying.
https://www.google.com/search?q=BULLETI ... e&ie=UTF-8
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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Mark Aspam
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LarsMac;1514553 wrote: We must live in different universes.
I see nothing of the sort on any of the news wires.Well, I definitely heard it, no details were given, I suggest watching tonight's network news, CBS or otherwise.
I see nothing of the sort on any of the news wires.Well, I definitely heard it, no details were given, I suggest watching tonight's network news, CBS or otherwise.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Found this.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rep-steve- ... nst-trump/
A representative introducing a bill to file article of Impeachment isn't quite to the point of impeachment proceedings, yet.
The bill needs to go through committees and be voted on by the assembly before any proceedings can take place.
Do you have any idea how many times a representative introduced a bill to file an article of impeachment against President Obama while he was in office?
With a Republican Majority, Mr Cohen's bill will likely die a quiet death in some forgotten committee.
Wake me up when a Republican files such a bill.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rep-steve- ... nst-trump/
A representative introducing a bill to file article of Impeachment isn't quite to the point of impeachment proceedings, yet.
The bill needs to go through committees and be voted on by the assembly before any proceedings can take place.
Do you have any idea how many times a representative introduced a bill to file an article of impeachment against President Obama while he was in office?
With a Republican Majority, Mr Cohen's bill will likely die a quiet death in some forgotten committee.
Wake me up when a Republican files such a bill.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
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Mark Aspam
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LarsMac;1514560 wrote: Found this.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rep-steve- ... nst-trump/
A representative introducing a bill to file article of Impeachment isn't quite to the point of impeachment proceedings, yet.
The bill needs to go through committees and be voted on by the assembly before any proceedings can take place.
Do you have any idea how many times a representative introduced a bill to file an article of impeachment against President Obama while he was in office?
With a Republican Majority, Mr Cohen's bill will likely die a quiet death in some forgotten committee.
Wake me up when a Republican files such a bill.OK to all that. I only said that CBS made the comment at noon DC time.
You can also google trump impeachment for lots of other info.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rep-steve- ... nst-trump/
A representative introducing a bill to file article of Impeachment isn't quite to the point of impeachment proceedings, yet.
The bill needs to go through committees and be voted on by the assembly before any proceedings can take place.
Do you have any idea how many times a representative introduced a bill to file an article of impeachment against President Obama while he was in office?
With a Republican Majority, Mr Cohen's bill will likely die a quiet death in some forgotten committee.
Wake me up when a Republican files such a bill.OK to all that. I only said that CBS made the comment at noon DC time.
You can also google trump impeachment for lots of other info.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514562 wrote: OK to all that. I only said that CBS made the comment at noon DC time.
You can also google trump impeachment for lots of other info.
Well, what you 'said' was:
BULLETIN: Noon D.C. time: CBS reports that impeachment proceedings against Trump have begun.
There will, no doubt, be much more information on the evening news.
If CBS actually said that proceedings have begun, they were misinformed, and have since corrected their report.
I suspect that you may have misunderstood what they actually announced. It is easy to do in today's environment. Part of why I pay very little attention to broadcast media, any more.
In their haste to be the first one to say it, they often get it wrong.
You can also google trump impeachment for lots of other info.
Well, what you 'said' was:
BULLETIN: Noon D.C. time: CBS reports that impeachment proceedings against Trump have begun.
There will, no doubt, be much more information on the evening news.
If CBS actually said that proceedings have begun, they were misinformed, and have since corrected their report.
I suspect that you may have misunderstood what they actually announced. It is easy to do in today's environment. Part of why I pay very little attention to broadcast media, any more.
In their haste to be the first one to say it, they often get it wrong.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
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Mark Aspam
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LarsMac;1514564 wrote: If CBS actually said that proceedings have begun, they were misinformed, and have since corrected their report.
I suspect that you may have misunderstood what they actually announced. It is easy to do in today's environment. Part of why I pay very little attention to broadcast media, any more. In their haste to be the first one to say it, they often get it wrong.I think you are splitting hairs here, for what purpose I know not.
Today's Washington Post reads:"House Dems introduce impeachment articles against Trump."
That sure sounds like proceedings having begun to me.
I suspect that you may have misunderstood what they actually announced. It is easy to do in today's environment. Part of why I pay very little attention to broadcast media, any more. In their haste to be the first one to say it, they often get it wrong.I think you are splitting hairs here, for what purpose I know not.
Today's Washington Post reads:"House Dems introduce impeachment articles against Trump."
That sure sounds like proceedings having begun to me.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514569 wrote: I think you are splitting hairs here, for what purpose I know not.
Today's Washington Post reads:"House Dems introduce impeachment articles against Trump."
That sure sounds like proceedings having begun to me.
Well, simply put, until the House actually votes on bringing charges, the proceedings (Which are held by the Senate) cannot begin.
Today's Washington Post reads:"House Dems introduce impeachment articles against Trump."
That sure sounds like proceedings having begun to me.
Well, simply put, until the House actually votes on bringing charges, the proceedings (Which are held by the Senate) cannot begin.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514463 wrote: Well first of all, there are two "lists" in this thread, similar but not identical.
The first MAY BE from the Holocaust Museum as gmc claims.The second seems to be roughly based on the first with some twists, paraphrases and additions.
But I don't understand the 'reminder'. If I understand you correctly, you are just reinforcing my point - that many non-Americans seem ignorant, or perhaps misinformed - as to how the American government works.
A tyrant or dictatorship in the USA is virtually impossible. Of course it is possible to call names, that is in most cases mere political babble, as I remarked earlier.
Bloody cheek what do you mean it MAY be from the holocaust museum I am not in the habit of claiming something unless I can back it up. Check it out you numpty. The signs would be recognised by anyone with a basic knowledge of 20th century history you kind of reinforce the comment that most americans would not recognise a fascist if they met one you seem to be unable to be objective about it and discuss preferring to instead get hung up on the huffington post article and the minor differences as if that spmehow makes them invalid.
I think you're right hopefully the checks and balances in your political system will work to prevent it but that doesn't mean there won't be a very real attempt to create a fascist state and fascism does not need a dictator to lead it it's something you sleepwalk in to. As to what will happen in the future I rteally have no idea. We've left behind the days when newspapers and television could shape people's opinions and affect the way they vote and there's a lot more information on tap but even you don't bother checking out the veracity of what's been posted in this thead.
I know brexiteers who just completely ignore any facts that conflict with what they want to believe other than that they are quite normal people, not stupid in any way.
The first MAY BE from the Holocaust Museum as gmc claims.The second seems to be roughly based on the first with some twists, paraphrases and additions.
But I don't understand the 'reminder'. If I understand you correctly, you are just reinforcing my point - that many non-Americans seem ignorant, or perhaps misinformed - as to how the American government works.
A tyrant or dictatorship in the USA is virtually impossible. Of course it is possible to call names, that is in most cases mere political babble, as I remarked earlier.
Bloody cheek what do you mean it MAY be from the holocaust museum I am not in the habit of claiming something unless I can back it up. Check it out you numpty. The signs would be recognised by anyone with a basic knowledge of 20th century history you kind of reinforce the comment that most americans would not recognise a fascist if they met one you seem to be unable to be objective about it and discuss preferring to instead get hung up on the huffington post article and the minor differences as if that spmehow makes them invalid.
I think you're right hopefully the checks and balances in your political system will work to prevent it but that doesn't mean there won't be a very real attempt to create a fascist state and fascism does not need a dictator to lead it it's something you sleepwalk in to. As to what will happen in the future I rteally have no idea. We've left behind the days when newspapers and television could shape people's opinions and affect the way they vote and there's a lot more information on tap but even you don't bother checking out the veracity of what's been posted in this thead.
I know brexiteers who just completely ignore any facts that conflict with what they want to believe other than that they are quite normal people, not stupid in any way.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514569 wrote: I think you are splitting hairs here, for what purpose I know not.
Today's Washington Post reads:"House Dems introduce impeachment articles against Trump."
That sure sounds like proceedings having begun to me.It's a total of 5 house democrats. The Washington Post is a sensationalist propaganda rag.
Today's Washington Post reads:"House Dems introduce impeachment articles against Trump."
That sure sounds like proceedings having begun to me.It's a total of 5 house democrats. The Washington Post is a sensationalist propaganda rag.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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Mark Aspam
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- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Early warning signs of fascism.
gmc;1514574 wrote: Bloody cheek what do you mean it MAY be from the holocaust museum I am not in the habit of claiming something unless I can back it up. .Well, I said MAY because I am guessing that you got the list from a Brit scandal sheet which claims that the list is from the museum, and that MAY be true.
If you have actually visited the museum then I actually apologize.
The point is, my OPINION is that a FEW posters to this thread do not seem to have the slightest idea of how the USA is governed and how its laws and especially its constitution protects its citizens from all of the vile things that we have been discussing here. What scares me most is that a few of them are actually citizens of this country. We have remained free since 1776 and will remain so long after all of us, Americans and others, are long gone.
If you have actually visited the museum then I actually apologize.
The point is, my OPINION is that a FEW posters to this thread do not seem to have the slightest idea of how the USA is governed and how its laws and especially its constitution protects its citizens from all of the vile things that we have been discussing here. What scares me most is that a few of them are actually citizens of this country. We have remained free since 1776 and will remain so long after all of us, Americans and others, are long gone.
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magentaflame
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Just wondering what you consider as being free.
And i know your systems of governing because it was compulsary at school to learn other countries political and governing systems. I notice America does nothave that in their own school curriculum.
And i know your systems of governing because it was compulsary at school to learn other countries political and governing systems. I notice America does nothave that in their own school curriculum.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Early warning signs of fascism.
Mark Aspam;1514584 wrote: Well, I said MAY because I am guessing that you got the list from a Brit scandal sheet which claims that the list is from the museum, and that MAY be true.
If you have actually visited the museum then I actually apologize.
The point is, my OPINION is that a FEW posters to this thread do not seem to have the slightest idea of how the USA is governed and how its laws and especially its constitution protects its citizens from all of the vile things that we have been discussing here. What scares me most is that a few of them are actually citizens of this country. We have remained free since 1776 and will remain so long after all of us, Americans and others, are long gone.
The independent hardly qualifies as a scandal sheet. It was a tweet by somebody that has made it topical. Never mind
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/p ... 53921.html
Actually I do know how the usa is governed although I do not claim to be an expert by any means. Your constitution only works if the checks and balances are kept in place and not twisted to serve the ends of a few. Maybe the voters in those states where voting resrtriction have been introduced don't have anything to worry about but they're going to have to get off theior backsides.
Anyway the post was about fascism not the us constitition. You might fond tghis of interest if you can be bothered reading it.
Fascism USA - A Review of the Growing Loss of Democracy
In particular
"The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power...
Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion...
The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism... They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection."
Henry A. Wallace, 1944
The american fascists went very quiet after ww2 but they didn't go away. Nor did ours
Who owns america? Fascism, corporations, church and state working together. trump is playing the god card I notice as well as the blind patriotism one.
Actually I think your constitution will work in the end, not least because ordinary people can vote and hopefully outnumber the nutjobs at the end of the day.
Methinks here in the UK we have a more serious problem our fiorst past the post system really skews the actual vote so we end uo with governments the majority of people voted for. Roll on indyref 2.
If you have actually visited the museum then I actually apologize.
The point is, my OPINION is that a FEW posters to this thread do not seem to have the slightest idea of how the USA is governed and how its laws and especially its constitution protects its citizens from all of the vile things that we have been discussing here. What scares me most is that a few of them are actually citizens of this country. We have remained free since 1776 and will remain so long after all of us, Americans and others, are long gone.
The independent hardly qualifies as a scandal sheet. It was a tweet by somebody that has made it topical. Never mind
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/p ... 53921.html
Actually I do know how the usa is governed although I do not claim to be an expert by any means. Your constitution only works if the checks and balances are kept in place and not twisted to serve the ends of a few. Maybe the voters in those states where voting resrtriction have been introduced don't have anything to worry about but they're going to have to get off theior backsides.
Anyway the post was about fascism not the us constitition. You might fond tghis of interest if you can be bothered reading it.
Fascism USA - A Review of the Growing Loss of Democracy
In particular
"The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power...
Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion...
The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism... They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection."
Henry A. Wallace, 1944
The american fascists went very quiet after ww2 but they didn't go away. Nor did ours
Who owns america? Fascism, corporations, church and state working together. trump is playing the god card I notice as well as the blind patriotism one.
Actually I think your constitution will work in the end, not least because ordinary people can vote and hopefully outnumber the nutjobs at the end of the day.
Methinks here in the UK we have a more serious problem our fiorst past the post system really skews the actual vote so we end uo with governments the majority of people voted for. Roll on indyref 2.
Early warning signs of fascism.
Methinks here in the UK we have a more serious problem our first past the post system really skews the actual vote so we end up with governments the majority of people voted for. Roll on indyref 2.
Methinks amongst the typos you wanted to put against but substituted for.
Slow down your typing and proof read please Jock.
Methinks amongst the typos you wanted to put against but substituted for.
Slow down your typing and proof read please Jock.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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magentaflame
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As long as he doesnt make an audio recording...we'd never understand what he wanted to say.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Mark Aspam
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gmc;1514632 wrote: Actually I do know how the usa is governed although I do not claim to be an expert by any means. .Thank you for not claiming that.
Wallace was a well-known socialist and something of an extremist/Trotskyite. I, a lifelong socialist, would NEVER have voted for him.
The rest of your post pretty much proves my point. Although I've lived elsewhere, I'm a loyal American and haven't the slightest idea where you get some of your assertions. I would especially like to hear more about "church and state working together". I am a cradle Catholic and a proud member of a Jewish household. I have never noticed any indication whatsoever of either of those religions DIRECTLY involved with government, maybe you can give some examples.
Have you ever even VISITED the USA?
Afterthought: Aren't England, Scotland and Wales all "church and state working together"? Not sure, just asking. What's the point? In any case , the USA is definitely church neutral. If you can give any info to the contrary, please do so.
Wallace was a well-known socialist and something of an extremist/Trotskyite. I, a lifelong socialist, would NEVER have voted for him.
The rest of your post pretty much proves my point. Although I've lived elsewhere, I'm a loyal American and haven't the slightest idea where you get some of your assertions. I would especially like to hear more about "church and state working together". I am a cradle Catholic and a proud member of a Jewish household. I have never noticed any indication whatsoever of either of those religions DIRECTLY involved with government, maybe you can give some examples.
Have you ever even VISITED the USA?
Afterthought: Aren't England, Scotland and Wales all "church and state working together"? Not sure, just asking. What's the point? In any case , the USA is definitely church neutral. If you can give any info to the contrary, please do so.
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magentaflame
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Oh i see what you do now. You dont discuss the points or argue whats actually said.....you just label and shoot the messenger
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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magentaflame
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And Trump now flouts international laws. After all the efforts by African conservationists Trump is going to allow ivory back into America.
Guess whos sons are avid international hunters?
Guess whos sons are avid international hunters?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Clodhopper
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magentaflame;1514644 wrote: And Trump now flouts international laws. After all the efforts by African conservationists Trump is going to allow ivory back into America.
Guess whos sons are avid international hunters?
One of the only bits of legislation that **** in the Presidency has managed is to allow polluting within 600 yards of natural water sources - streams, lakes, that sort of thing.
Laws don't apply to Trump. He knows that from grabbing women by the pussy, Mob contacts from his real estate business years and expensive legally qualified but morally bankrupt ****s (ie the sort of lawyer who will work for someone like that).
Guess whos sons are avid international hunters?
One of the only bits of legislation that **** in the Presidency has managed is to allow polluting within 600 yards of natural water sources - streams, lakes, that sort of thing.
Laws don't apply to Trump. He knows that from grabbing women by the pussy, Mob contacts from his real estate business years and expensive legally qualified but morally bankrupt ****s (ie the sort of lawyer who will work for someone like that).
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Early warning signs of fascism.
Bruv;1514633 wrote: Methinks amongst the typos you wanted to put against but substituted for.
Slow down your typing and proof read please Jock.
You're quite right I did mean against.
Posted by magenta flame
As long as he doesnt make an audio recording...we'd never understand what he wanted to say.
:yh_rotfl.
Posted by mark aspam
Wallace was a well-known socialist and something of an extremist/Trotskyite. I, a lifelong socialist, would NEVER have voted for him.
The rest of your post pretty much proves my point. Although I've lived elsewhere, I'm a loyal American and haven't the slightest idea where you get some of your assertions. I would especially like to hear more about "church and state working together". I am a cradle Catholic and a proud member of a Jewish household. I have never noticed any indication whatsoever of either of those religions DIRECTLY involved with government, maybe you can give some examples.
As a socialist you are surely aware of what fascism is and be able to recognise fascism for what it is and the part religion plays in it. Trump is actively encouraging the christian right to get their support. It's not their active participation but their support and infuence that affects policy. Just because they do not actually hold office and are not ACTIVELY involved does not mean they have no impact. If trump gets to appoint conservative supreme court judges you will no doubt see even more evidence of the religious influence winding back civil liberties in the name of protecting religious freedom.
Have you ever even VISITED the USA?
Nope not yet, plan to next year. The point of this forum is to discuss things with people who have a different perpective on things. My assertions as you would have it are put to find out if my opinions and preconceptions about the usa have any kind of validity. I'm still convinced my initial assertion that most americans would not recognise a fascist if they met one is correct. If I said racist, bigot would that help?
Afterthought: Aren't England, Scotland and Wales all "church and state working together"? Not sure, just asking. What's the point? In any case , the USA is definitely church neutral. If you can give any info to the contrary, please do so.
On paper yes we have a state religion, the queen is head of the church of england and the bishops get seats in the house of lords where they exert their baleful influence the but not the church of scotland but that organisation has power out of all proportion to the actual membership and on the 5th of november we burn effigies of catholics and set off fireworks to celebrate their failure to bring back a catholic monarchy and the divine right of kings. Religion is a cancer that occasionally exerts itself usually to try reclaim their rights to discriminate against people they deciude are a good target. But we also have a strong history of fighting the state that's why we have a parliamentary system of government where parliament is supposedly sovereign. Unfortunately we donlt have the same kind of checks and balances built in to our system - On the other hand not convinced a written cinstitution would work for us the us does seem to get hung up on the wording rather than the intent in some things.
We exported our religious bigotry to you - the pilgrim fathers weren't fleeing persecution they were so obnoxious we wanted to get rid of them. In boston USA you don't just have a st. patricks day parade you have an orange walk as well at least they don't end up fighting. You've only ever had one catholic president why is that?
I digress. The arrangements mussolini made with the catholic church and they with him were to reinforce the state power, the catholic church endorsed hitler Trump courts the religious right to reinforce his support although I wouldn't put him in the same league. Why do you think the writers of the constitution wanted seperation of state and religion it was because they had seen how one was used to reinforce the other.
Slow down your typing and proof read please Jock.
You're quite right I did mean against.
Posted by magenta flame
As long as he doesnt make an audio recording...we'd never understand what he wanted to say.
:yh_rotfl.
Posted by mark aspam
Wallace was a well-known socialist and something of an extremist/Trotskyite. I, a lifelong socialist, would NEVER have voted for him.
The rest of your post pretty much proves my point. Although I've lived elsewhere, I'm a loyal American and haven't the slightest idea where you get some of your assertions. I would especially like to hear more about "church and state working together". I am a cradle Catholic and a proud member of a Jewish household. I have never noticed any indication whatsoever of either of those religions DIRECTLY involved with government, maybe you can give some examples.
As a socialist you are surely aware of what fascism is and be able to recognise fascism for what it is and the part religion plays in it. Trump is actively encouraging the christian right to get their support. It's not their active participation but their support and infuence that affects policy. Just because they do not actually hold office and are not ACTIVELY involved does not mean they have no impact. If trump gets to appoint conservative supreme court judges you will no doubt see even more evidence of the religious influence winding back civil liberties in the name of protecting religious freedom.
Have you ever even VISITED the USA?
Nope not yet, plan to next year. The point of this forum is to discuss things with people who have a different perpective on things. My assertions as you would have it are put to find out if my opinions and preconceptions about the usa have any kind of validity. I'm still convinced my initial assertion that most americans would not recognise a fascist if they met one is correct. If I said racist, bigot would that help?
Afterthought: Aren't England, Scotland and Wales all "church and state working together"? Not sure, just asking. What's the point? In any case , the USA is definitely church neutral. If you can give any info to the contrary, please do so.
On paper yes we have a state religion, the queen is head of the church of england and the bishops get seats in the house of lords where they exert their baleful influence the but not the church of scotland but that organisation has power out of all proportion to the actual membership and on the 5th of november we burn effigies of catholics and set off fireworks to celebrate their failure to bring back a catholic monarchy and the divine right of kings. Religion is a cancer that occasionally exerts itself usually to try reclaim their rights to discriminate against people they deciude are a good target. But we also have a strong history of fighting the state that's why we have a parliamentary system of government where parliament is supposedly sovereign. Unfortunately we donlt have the same kind of checks and balances built in to our system - On the other hand not convinced a written cinstitution would work for us the us does seem to get hung up on the wording rather than the intent in some things.
We exported our religious bigotry to you - the pilgrim fathers weren't fleeing persecution they were so obnoxious we wanted to get rid of them. In boston USA you don't just have a st. patricks day parade you have an orange walk as well at least they don't end up fighting. You've only ever had one catholic president why is that?
I digress. The arrangements mussolini made with the catholic church and they with him were to reinforce the state power, the catholic church endorsed hitler Trump courts the religious right to reinforce his support although I wouldn't put him in the same league. Why do you think the writers of the constitution wanted seperation of state and religion it was because they had seen how one was used to reinforce the other.