What is Brexit going to mean?

[Clodhopper]

No-one seems to know. So I've sent the following email to my MP, the Honourable Zak Goldsmith, MP for Richmond Park.

Dear Sir,

Perhaps as an enthusiastic Brexiter you can explain to me what practical, tangible benefits the people of this country can expect to see from leaving the EU? And when - roughly at least?

It is obvious that expectation management has moved from having our cake and eating it (Johnson) and a deal being very easy (Davis) to of course there will be difficult times after we leave.

If this is correct and there are difficult times ahead, when can we expect - again, roughly - to get back to an economy as strong as it was before the brexit vote and the slide in the £?

I note with approval your efforts to get the EU's animal sentience law passed into UK law and the at best half hearted response but do worry that in the difficult times ahead there will be little money for helping taxis improve their air quality.

There are rumours that the Heathrow expansion is not, after all, going ahead and Gatwick is a better post brexit prospect. This is hopeful but very easily could be wishful thinking. Can you comment on this at all?

Yours faithfully,

Wonder what will come back? I did express my disgust after the brexit vote and got a polite reply thanking me for expressing my views...He is personally charming, just a billionaire brexiter.

[spot]

His father was scarcely an asset to the nation.

[Bruv]

I am thinking he really looks forward to his secretary reading your letters and then singing her replies.

Dancing too ??:p

[Clodhopper]

Bruv;1513948 wrote: I am thinking he really looks forward to his secretary reading your letters and then singing her replies.

Dancing too ??:p


Possibly

However, I'm interested to see what, if anything, comes back. Entirely genuinely I'd like to know what positive results of brexit we have to look forward and when, since I can really only see poverty and misery as a result of brexit.

There's also some talk that brexit politicians very rarely reply to questions about brexit from their constituents and when they do it's with straight propaganda. Let's see - he's not your typical tory rich bastard politician, he genuinely has green beliefs. Useless, of course, but not quite as bad as some to all appearances.

[Clodhopper]

spot;1513947 wrote: His father was scarcely an asset to the nation.


I think we are at the point where no tory can be considered an asset to the nation by virtue of being a tory. Any other good they incidentally do is negated by that fact.

His dad was UKIP I think. No more need be said.

[Bruv]

I can't remember using an emoji in that post.

Also the singing error.....I thought had been corrected on a proof read.

And have no recollection of the dancing part..............................either we have a rogue editor with access to my posts......or I am going senile.

But all that aside, I don't think Zak has anything to say, because those negotiating have no definitive answers either.

Anything they might say are wishes more than anything solid.

[Clodhopper]

Bruv;1513964 wrote: I can't remember using an emoji in that post.

Also the singing error.....I thought had been corrected on a proof read.

And have no recollection of the dancing part..............................either we have a rogue editor with access to my posts......or I am going senile.

But all that aside, I don't think Zak has anything to say, because those negotiating have no definitive answers either.

Anything they might say are wishes more than anything solid.


Lol. And there was me imagining him making his secretary sing and intepret my email in dance...

But come on, we must be leaving the EU for something more than vague talk of return of sovereignty - which is a load of rubbish anyway since any deal we ever sign is by definition a sharing of sovereignty to some extent. A trade deal is us agreeing to waive certain of our sovereign rights in return for them doing the same. We had a very good deal with the EU. The ONLY thing we can be sure of is that the EU has said from the very start that any deal we get after we have left will NOT be as good as full membership.

I want to know what, if anything, you and I have to look forward to as a result of brexit, if only to say, well, at least we got....(fill in huge blank here)

[Betty Boop]

Oh my word Bruv!!! Somehow I messed up, your post did say singing I promise.

I flew in here quickly and thought I'd quoted you with me then asking if there'd be dancing too!

Your post questioning yourself got me puzzled and I've just looked back over the thread and realised that without realising what I had done I had edited your post!!

I'm so sorry, I don't think I've ever done that before

[Bruv]

I genuinely think brexit was a balls up from start to finish, all our main political parties apart from UKIP would reverse it given half a chance.

Cameron called the referendum 'Knowing' it would be stay, May called an election 'Knowing' she would win.

Corbyn would say stay (He may have hinted it already.....is it Labour policy yet?)

And from there everybody has been running scared of the electorate's reaction if they even hinted at staying...........so they are all behind brexit in public at least.

I voted remain by the way, but without changing my opinion about staying am resigned to the fact we will leave.

To do otherwise calls your patriotism, parentage and sanity into question.

[Bruv]

Betty Boop;1513969 wrote: Oh my word Bruv!!! Somehow I messed up, your post did say singing I promise.

I flew in here quickly and thought I'd quoted you with me then asking if there'd be dancing too!

Your post questioning yourself got me puzzled and I've just looked back over the thread and realised that without realising what I had done I had edited your post!!

I'm so sorry, I don't think I've ever done that before


As you are my favourite moderator it's OK.........thanks for reassuring me about my senility.

(Don't tell Spot you know how jealous he gets)

[Betty Boop]

Bruv;1513973 wrote: As you are my favourite moderator it's OK.........thanks for reassuring me about my senility.

(Don't tell Spot you know how jealous he gets)


(I won't be saying a word to Spot, he might fire me for being incompetent, you know what a tyrant he is :sneaky:)

[Betty Boop]

I dread Brexit, its going to be a mess, I've yet to identify any benefit and yes it seems it will happen but one can hope...

[Clodhopper]

I think what I'm dreading as a response would be how we will all be better off as a result of the wonderful trade deals we will get with the whole world after brexit. That's because all the evidence I can see says other countries are well aware we neeeeeed trade deals and will push for the best deal for them they can get. They would be negligent not to.

Today I saw somewhere the South African Agriculture Minister saying he'd be delighted to make a deal - but would want extensive access to our agricultural sector. Do our farmers want to compete directly with South African farmers for market share? How many would survive? Not a huge number would be my guess. They'd be bought up by rich agri-corporations and intensively farmed...

The really big concern I have is that this NOT a balls up. That much of this was planned and executed for the benefit of some very rich people who have effectively cut us out of the EU herd, and can now hunt us down and devour us, making a lot of money for them in the process but impoverishing millions of us. The Russian connection is very worrying, as are the connections to Trump supporting US "charities" like Cambridge Analytics. In short that this was not a balls up, the referendum was deliberately interfered with by outside forces for their own ends.

Seen much about Putin and the Ukraine in the news? Or Syria? Brexit is great for him. So is Trump.

There's no doubt that Cambridge Analytics offered its services and they were accepted. There's no doubt that Banks first confirmed then denied having a bot farm in Bristol working for brexit. The question is not, was there interference? The question is, how significant for the result was the interference? In a result as close as the referendum was, it would seem that almost any outside interference might have swung the result.

[Saint_]

Clodhopper;1513966 wrote: The ONLY thing we can be sure of is that the EU has said from the very start that any deal we get after we have left will NOT be as good as full membership.


I can understand why the EU was formed. It's the same reason the United States was formed from the original colonies. Solidarity is economic and military strength. I'm not sure why Britain wanted to exit, other than (historically deserved) national pride. I guess it's similar to why Texas wants out of the U.S. Their economic interests aren't quite the same as the entire country's interests.

I did find it fascinating, though, that the Brexit was voted almost exclusively by the rural, and the EU was voted almost exclusively by the urban voters of Britain... What does that say about the gap between the two?

[Bruv]

The British don't do national pride very well.

That is not to say we are not proud of who we are, just that we are too self assured to have to crow about it.......like the Americans (Sorry America)

Generally over here the Union Jack is flown from public buildings on special days, and if seen on private homes it's considered crass, possibly racist.

The Scottish English and Welsh flags are normally seen at international football matches.

There is a rise in the closed border type nationalism seeping into the mainstream, based on fear of losing national or cultural identity and the economic benefits, jobs for our own etc. and that is behind Brexit in my opinion.

[Saint_]

Bruv;1514004 wrote: We are too self assured to have to crow about it.......like the Americans (Sorry America)


Well, it's true. But we're still a young nation, technically speaking, and the young are always loud-mouthed about themselves.

fear of losing national or cultural identity and the economic benefits, jobs for our own etc. and that is behind Brexit in my opinion.


In a xenophobic way? I know that there are very large Muslim populations now in Britain. Is the Brexit an isolationist anti-immigrant reaction?

[Bruv]

Saint_;1514005 wrote: Well, it's true. But we're still a young nation, technically speaking, and the young are always loud-mouthed about themselves.

In a xenophobic way? I know that there are very large Muslim populations now in Britain. Is the Brexit an isolationist anti-immigrant reaction?


Muslims constitute about 5 or 6 percent of our population, but they are concentrated in certain areas,poor northern towns and such, and unlike the Europeans can be picked out due to dress and colour.

There is bad feeling concerning EU nationals and their right to free travel to the UK, Polish builders are a national joke for a cheap jobs that undercut locals.

They have free access to the NHS social housing and the benefit system at a time when they are all under stress due to a government choice of austerity. They work for less, and share crowded housing, and have shops dedicated to their needs, even supermarkets stock strangely labeled foodstuffs.

So foreigners and Muslims are all lumped together, stealing our jobs, causing hold ups at hospitals, sending benefits home to their kids overseas........we would be so better off without them.....goes the argument.

So yes certainly some xenophobia.

Too many in far too fast a time scale has pushed the normally tolerant Brit too far.....so they say.

[Clodhopper]

There is a considerable xenophobic not to mention straightforwardly racist element to brexit in my opinion. There has always been a small element of neo-Nazi types like the BNP or England First but it wasn't acceptable. What brexit seems to have done is empowered a lot of racists who formerly might have thought but wouldn't do, made them aware of eachother and made racism much easier, if not generally more acceptable. As a result, now they are more likely to do.

The thing is that the EU by its very nature is multiracial and multicultural. That's anathema to racists so I think we can assume that almost every racist who voted, voted to Leave. The result is that although many brexiters are not racist there's an active core that is blatantly so and a much wider group who have suddenly found they can, and get away with it legally and socially. Similarly there's the far right element which overlaps largely with the racist one and also is never going to vote for a multiracial multinational EU. Then there are the ones who just believed and aren't racists, but seem happy enough to be with the racists and to stay with the racists.

Much like your Trump voters really - down to the final element, which is where did the money come from? To what extent was Putin involved (our Electoral Commission is looking into where one at least of the major brexit donor's money came from, making unnecessary use of a front company...might be innocent if a bit incompetent - or it might not) and what are the international links? Doubt we'll ever fully know. We already know enough, if you put Trump and brexit together, to have your eyebrows raised somewhere near the top of your head aiming at Russia.

The Russian people, I'm told by my Russian lodger, believe Putin was responsible for brexit and Trump and they are rather proud of it. My personal best current guess (nb subject to change at no notice at all) is that Trump was planned and brexit was opportunism.

edit: That Farage went running off to Trump is well known and illustrates there were ties between the two camps at some level.

[Bruv]

To be honest Clodhpper I think you are over thinking it and just a little paranoiac.

[Saint_]

Bruv;1514018 wrote:

So foreigners and Muslims are all lumped together, stealing our jobs, causing hold ups at hospitals, sending benefits home to their kids overseas........we would be so better off without them.....goes the argument.

So yes certainly some xenophobia.

Too many in far too fast a time scale has pushed the normally tolerant Brit too far.....so they say.


Actually, that sounds completely reasonable. We have the same kind of problem in my town.

[Clodhopper]

So foreigners and Muslims are all lumped together, stealing our jobs, causing hold ups at hospitals, sending benefits home to their kids overseas........we would be so better off without them.....goes the argument.

So yes certainly some xenophobia.


The tragedy is that the people who see things the way Bruv described don't realise that the builders and shop owners and migrant farm workers bring money into the local area in tax. If they go, that tax money goes and there aren't more spaces in the hospital, there are fewer because there's less money to pay for them. Fewer people in the area, so a GP gets cut. Fewer pupils in the Schools...

[Bruv]

Clodhopper;1514024 wrote: The tragedy is that the people who see things the way Bruv described don't realise that the builders and shop owners and migrant farm workers bring money into the local area in tax. If they go, that tax money goes and there aren't more spaces in the hospital, there are fewer because there's less money to pay for them. Fewer people in the area, so a GP gets cut. Fewer pupils in the Schools...


I have used this analogy before and think it still fits our situation right now.

We have thrown an open invitation house party, but far too many have turned up...............the very numbers arriving have spoiled it for everyone. Nobody can dance, nobody can get a drink, nobody can get to the toilets............some must leave for the good of everyone, friends family and neighbours can stay..........strangers are top priority to leave.

[Clodhopper]

Oh, I missed the paranoid post. You know Bruv, I hope so. I really do.

Heard much about Syria or the Ukraine in the news recently?

[Bruv]

Clodhopper;1514026 wrote: Oh, I missed the paranoid post. You know Bruv, I hope so. I really do.

Heard much about Syria or the Ukraine in the news recently?


They drip feed us the news they want to

The fad at the moment is the sexual misdemeanors of our politicians.....................I almost feel sorry for them.

[Clodhopper]

Bruv;1514025 wrote: I have used this analogy before and think it still fits our situation right now.

We have thrown an open invitation house party, but far too many have turned up...............the very numbers arriving have spoiled it for everyone. Nobody can dance, nobody can get a drink, nobody can get to the toilets............some must leave for the good of everyone, friends family and neighbours can stay..........strangers are top priority to leave.


I do see what you are saying.

The trouble is, some have decided to encourage leavers by throwing acid onto people of a different colour and others are blaming the overcrowding on the rest of the Town and say we should leave. When the shouting dies down we've left the Town, there's a lot of broken glass and only a few people and it's a heck of a long walk anywhere. And there are wolves.

Even the brexiters are now claiming that everyone always knew there would be a difficult transition period which is not what they were claiming a month or two ago when it was all hard brexit now. It's not a question of are we going to be poorer in the next few years, that's settled - we are. The questions now are how much? And for how long?

I think the basic problem has been our own bad governance and failure to keep a sufficiently free press. If that sounds odd I consider that multiple titles and media under single ownership (however disguised) are not actually free and the distortions of our right wing press have misled a large number of people. Can the Mail honestly be considered a news paper?

Anyway, the end result is that we will almost certainly end up leaving the EU as an attempt to solve the problem of our own bad governance. Since the attempted solution has little relevance to the problem I don't think it will work.

[Clodhopper]

Goldsmith does not share my views - but credit to the man, it's the most sensible comment I've heard from any brexiter.

Thank you for getting in touch.

I don’t share the pessimistic view that some have in relation the future of our country. We are one of the world’s biggest economies, we are geographically well placed to continue playing a big role in world affairs, our language is the global language, our judiciary is trusted, our democracy is the envy of much of the world, and our legal system provides more certainty and clarity than can be expected virtually anywhere else. In addition, people want to live, work and invest here. None of that is going to change.

Of course leaving the EU represents a big step, and as with any change there are challenges and opportunities. But that would also have been true had we chosen to stay put. The EU is fast changing. No one knows where it will end up, but we do know that with the exception of the UK, Â*the fastest growing political movements in almost every country in the EU are extreme ones. No one can read the future with certainty, but my view for what it’s worth is that the risk of being tied to an institution that refuses to reform, and which is likely not to last, is far greater than the risk of standing on our own feet.

FYI, I have copied below the text of an open letter issued by the PM last week which addresses some of the concerns about our future post Brexit.

Â*

My principle focus for now is the environment. If you have time, here is a link to a recent speech I gave in Parliament on the issue:Â*https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/ ... 911#g468.0

Brexit gives us a chance to do things very differently, and that opens countless opportunities. But there are difficulties – particularly around governance and the principles - and they need addressing.

I have been working with environmental lawyers, campaigners and like-minded MPs on a solution that can work alongside the Withdrawal Bill. I think we are there – with buy-in from the main green groups, a sufficient number of MPs, and the key people in DEFRA - but I hope you will understand if I do not at this stage go into more detail.

Finally, the Government remains committed to Heathrow expansion, but I believe the arguments are shifting and am convinced common sense will prevail. I will continue to do all I can.

Best wishes,

Zac GoldsmithÂ*

[Clodhopper]

My feelings are that

We are sliding down the list of world economies and brexit will speed that up

Geographically we control the sea lanes to NW Europe. Useful in War but political factors - like membership of the EU - also have a part to play and we've just done the equivalent of vote to row the island 1,000 miles into the Atlantic, politically speaking.

American is the global language. We will continue to gain a benefit from teaching a posh sounding version.

Judiciary, democracy and legal systems are indeed trusted but so is Germany's or France's or the EU's system. You might be able to say one or the other is better but not by a vast amount. And let's not forget many of us have reservations about first past the post as a system. And let's not forget that Ministers have more power than Parliament now they have the right to make any changes they like to EU Law as it becomes British. The can, legally and democratically under our system ignore any law they don't like the look of. Their personal choice right wing brexit tory version of say, workers rights, not Parliament's and not ours. I hope they do the right thing but I shouldn't have to hope.

His concerns around the collapse of the EU are also ones I share, however, my concern is that the collapse of the EU will lead to war, either between furious ex-member states or in reaction to, say Russian "peacekeeping" operations in, eg, Lithuania. We might be able to stay out but unless we leave NATO we probably won't be able to.

edit: Oh and on the extreme parties - we led the way with UKIP, they are just following, encouraged by our example. All extremist groups want to leave the EU because they know extreme groups get nowhere inside the EU. They get so far then stop, swamped by the mainstream, by the sheer number of ordinary moderate people. For extremes to thrive, they must leave the EU, as we have done.

[LarsMac]

Bruv;1514028 wrote: They drip feed us the news they want to

The fad at the moment is the sexual misdemeanors of our politicians.....................I almost feel sorry for them.


Interesting how the same sort of issues seem to take the news' attention on both sides of the pond.

Though it seems that it's more the misconduct of actors getting splashed across our news feeds of late. Politicians' misconduct strikes too close to the Twit in Chief.

But the "Current Issue at Hand" seems to remain remarkably consistent in theme, if not in plot for the entire "Western" civilization.

[Clodhopper]

Brexit and Trump are very good for Putin and very good for China.

I don't think either will be good for the US, the UK or the EU.

With the Paradise papers coming out as well there's a sense of overload if anything. Hmm. If any powers were trying to keep the West so concerned with internal issues they have no time to spare for anything else they're having an effect. On the other hand this sort of stuff does give the chance to clean up a bit. chuckle. Maybe Trump IS having an effect draining the swamp, by the reaction against him and what he represents by way of overpowerful men (mostly if not entirely) and the arrogance of the ultrawealthy. Just not the swamp he thought, and not the way he thought.

Increasingly, I want less and less Chinese or Russian investment. Chinese global purchases of resources in Africa and for example, Piraeus (the biggest container port in Greece) suggest to me more than random purchases. With Russia I am just concerned with corruption and short term chaos.

[Clodhopper]

Saint_;1514001 wrote: I can understand why the EU was formed. It's the same reason the United States was formed from the original colonies. Solidarity is economic and military strength. I'm not sure why Britain wanted to exit, other than (historically deserved) national pride. I guess it's similar to why Texas wants out of the U.S. Their economic interests aren't quite the same as the entire country's interests.

I did find it fascinating, though, that the Brexit was voted almost exclusively by the rural, and the EU was voted almost exclusively by the urban voters of Britain... What does that say about the gap between the two?


Sorry, I missed this earlier. It's a very good question.

Ok, first off we're really talking about England here, not Britain. Scotland, Wales and N Ireland have their own reasons for the way they voted and there wasn't a rural/urban split in the way there was in England.

Second, England is a highly manicured garden. Even the wildernesses in the garden are carefully tended. There is a LOT of wealth there, as well as some of the most devastating pockets of poverty in the country. It's THE core area of Nationalist Conservatism as a political force with attitudes that were getting old fashioned in about 1930 and who fear and hate any change since then. They aren't just Conservatives, they are mostly right wing Conservatives who never liked Europe. I know these people - I grew up among them. They are the families that got wealthy when we had an Empire and who have been losing wealth as the Empire declined and fell, plus poverty traps full of people who feel (wrongly I fear) they have nothing to lose from any change. Both were told by the popular papers that all their woes were the fault of the EU. Look at a map of General Election results and the same rural areas vote Conservative as voted Leave, pretty much. They don't like workers' rights - or shirkers' charters as they tend to call them - and they care a lot about the lowest taxes possible.

[Clodhopper]

The release of the brexit papers detailing the expected effects of brexit has now been dropped back three weeks. The first deadline was Friday last, the next was the start of this week.

The country is steadily turning into a brexit dictatorship. Ministers have near total power and are obstructing the expressed and legal will of Parliament for the release of those papers.

You can bet if the papers said anything good we'd have heard it by now. The only area I've heard even a muted claim for is tourism and the entertainment and hospitality sector is one that says it needs free movement of people.

It's not too late to change our minds.

[gmc]

A brief reminder of something brexiteers would like to pretend was never said.

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win - Mirror Online

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “[QUOTE]In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”


Had the remain vote been the winner farage would you would not be hearing shut up and accept it the people have spoken.

[spot]

Ho ho ho.

That's me being seasonal and the news that Northern Ireland is to remain within the European Union if no alternative agreement on the Irish border can be reached.

No, that's not me being funny, that's today's news.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-talks

“in the absence of agreed solutions the UK will ensure that there continues to be continued regulatory alignment” with the internal market and customs union.

[Clodhopper]

Later update: Bombed by the DUP. No deal yet, no move to trade talks yet.

[spot]

I thought the DUP wouldn't have the clout, I thought the DUP agreement would break rather than the potential fix going forward. What prats in number 10 think the DUP is worth that.

[Clodhopper]

Well, as I said on another thread, there are possible technical solutions and existing systems that could be expanded, according to Civil Servants reporting to the Brexit Select Committee.

You can have checks done at the point of departure and arrival rather than the Border itself, and there is apparently something called a Trusted Trader scheme that could license businesses with cross-border operations. But whether that would be enough I don't know.

I doubt this setback is enough to scupper brexit, sadly.

[gmc]

What really pisses me off is that bexit is beingb touted as tye democratic will of the people. The leave side won by just less than four per cent, hardly an overwhelming majority, but if the 40 per cent rule had been applied, as it was in the 1979 failed Scottish devolution referendum, then that result (reducing to 37 per cent) would not have proceeded. So we have ended up in the situation where the 63 per cent of us who did not vote Leave are allowing ourselves to be bullied and dictated to by the Brexiteers. The labour party seem to have bought in to this myth it's as if the wishes of those who don't want to leave count for nothing.

Meanwhile

Theresa May touted for Scottish football manager's job | The National

THERESA May has been touted for the Scotland football manager's job by the SNP for her ability to "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory". :yh_rotfl

[Clodhopper]

I haven't given up hope of a 2nd referendum. Muck ups like this demonstrate how much of a shafting we're in for even if we get a deal: Paying £40-50 billion(?) to get a worse deal than the one we have now, as the EU have said from the start? Crazy.

No deal is worse. No deal means planes don't fly because we lose our accreditation, lorries are immediately subject to border checks and even containers and cargos on ships would not have valid paperwork. Nothing would move until we made some deals and agreements an the other side would have ALL the power, as the EU does in these negotiations. Notice how the EU has set the agenda - we whinged and caved; they decide whether sufficient progress has been made - they decided it hadn't. We are at the mercy of people we are annoying and abusing. They were our friends.

I find it amazing Davis (who I assume actually negotiated the settlement - May was there to sign, no more) ever thought the DUP would accept a deal that aligned NI with the Republic not the UK. Is he that ignorant? That stupid? Was he setting May up for a deliberate public humiliation for a leadership bid?

[spot]

spot;1515416 wrote: Ho ho ho.

That's me being seasonal and the news that Northern Ireland is to remain within the European Union if no alternative agreement on the Irish border can be reached.

No, that's not me being funny, that's today's news.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-talks

“in the absence of agreed solutions the UK will ensure that there continues to be continued regulatory alignment” with the internal market and customs union.




Ho ho ho again.

The revised wording is now public.

It's exactly what was proposed for Northern Ireland but now it extends to the entire UK: In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union.

We understand "full alignment" presumably? Something that is fully aligned has no divergence, it does not differ in any way. The UK has agreed that if no alternative is put in place by subsequent negotiation, the backstop position is the permanent continuation of the UK remaining within the internal market and the customs union. We don't have a say in any changes to the internal market and the customs union because we will no longer have a vote within the European Council, but we've agreed to conform to the market rules and customs.

Why any EU country would now pursue alternative "agreed solutions" I can't quite fathom. Why make further trade deals after getting that signed.

[Clodhopper]

Well, it looks to me as if we have a compromise agreement that pleases no-one. Brexiters will say we haven't left, because we haven't; Remainers will say all we have given up is the power to affect decisions.

It's not quite the worst of all possible outcomes but not far off.

[spot]

I can't see the slightest incentive for the European Union to do anything at all from here on out. They have their ideal endgame already in the checkout basket.

What would happen if we called up the Territorials, started a major rearmament program and ordered several thousand landing craft.

[Clodhopper]

Shrug. We are well into Dad's Army farce territory. Why not? It's about all we have left.

I really don't have words for the sheer stupidity of this situation.

Heck, let's just wait a day or so just to be sure it doesn't all unravel.

[Clodhopper]

The big problem here is that the brexiters are going around saying that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and the Irish agreement on the Border is part of that conditional situation.

Unfortunately the EU says it is agreed that all the provisions of stage 1, including the Irish Border are final and guaranteed, and this means there will be continued regulatory alignment between the whole of the UK and the RoI so that NI continues to be exactly the same as the rest of the UK except on matters relating to abortion, gay marriage and moving out of the middle ages, and we have a soft border.

Davis I am sure is congratulating himself on his cleverness. To me it looks like a flaw that will cause the whole thing to unravel, if Davis and the Irish are already a loggerheads over the issue.

Brexit is bad enough: With all its flaws the EU was and remains the best hope for a peaceful and prosperous future based on the Freedom of the Individual and the Rule of Law there has ever been in all our blood-soaked history for all the people of Europe.

Brexit led by these filthy, ambitious liars (inside and outside parliament) will be much worse than just an economic crash.

How can brexiters face themselves in the mirror knowing they voted with every racist in the country capable of correctly doing the ballot paper? "I'm not a racist, but I'm happy to support racists, and even knowing it I still support the racists, the far right, the billionaire businessmen and the rolling eyed brexit ****s in the tory party who have always cared so well for the have-nots in our society. They'll make brexit a success for all of us..."

[Clodhopper]

Might as well keep a record: Latest email to Goldsmith, in relation to a pod of dolphins discovered to be resident off the Cornish coast, not just transiting the area as had been thought:

Mr Goldsmith,

I'm getting in touch to draw to your attention to this recent discovery in case you hadn't been aware of it. It is apparently located off the Cornish coast. The reason for drawing it to your attention is that I understand that the two other resident pods (one Scottish, one Welsh) have Marine Conservation areas set up to protect them and in busy Cornish waters this would seem very necessary for this pod too.

I was unsurprised but appalled that you voted against the Sovereignty of Parliament. I understand you put your money behind the brexit campaign along with people like Murdoch, Banks and Putin.

Better make it work. The consequences of the failure of your minority project are appalling.

Yours sincerely,

Owen Wheatley