That's what Theresa May says, anyway.
PM Theresa May makes case for 'our precious Union' - BBC News
Ms May is misinformed.
What we are, Ms May, is two nations plus a principality and a province. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
We are also three peoples. We are the English, the Scots and the Welsh. The proddy Ulstermen are belligerent rogues left over from Cromwell's genocidal plantation policy and the long-suffering papists are Irish, neither category being a British People.
The sooner the British Isles become three independent sovereign nations the better, unless anyone thinks Welsh independence would be a good move too.
I note in passing that, for the first time in my life, I do not know the marital status of the Prime Minister.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
We've had the spectracle of the one tory MP whop happens to be the minister for sxcotkand promising more poweres for holyrood after brexit alongside that og theresa My refusioning to conform that already devolved powers (fishing and agriculture) won't be taken away. Ruth davis=[dsin telling the kirthern irish that a hard border between niorth and south won;r be necessary and then coming back to scotland to tell us that independence means passport controls at gretna green.
May uses opening speech at Scottish Tory Party conference to attack independence (From The National)
May said she wanted to “build a new ‘collective responsibility’ across the United Kingdom, which unites all layers of government, to work positively together to improve the lives of everyone in our countryâ€.
The UK government had a fundamental responsibility to the whole of the country, and that could not be undermined by a devolved administration, she added.
She continued: “In those areas where the UK Government holds the policy levers, we will use them wisely to the benefit of Scottish firms and workers.
“Where the Scottish Government hold the levers, in areas like skills and infrastructure, we will seek to work with them to ensure the best outcomes for Scotland.â€
If you just read the mainstream media you would think the SNP never made any comments or discussed anythingh except another referendum.It was in the SNPO manifesto that they n-might hold another referendum if there was a material change - like brexit. You wouldn't think it from the daily mail but labour and the tories have only one westminster MP each. Please Mrs May tell us we can't have anoher referendum.
I feel for the welsh always an afterthought and they have neil hamilton
Nigel Farage deserves to be made a duke, says Neil Hamilton | The Independent
:-5:-5:-5:-5
What about this farce
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39042666
It's as if they don't think we can do this kind of thing, your starter for ten what nationality was the first director general of the bbc? The one that gave it it's ethos of publiv service broadcasting and impartiality in reporting the news. Poor man will be birling in his grave if he saw the bbc as it is now terified of uopsetting the politiciuand.
May uses opening speech at Scottish Tory Party conference to attack independence (From The National)
May said she wanted to “build a new ‘collective responsibility’ across the United Kingdom, which unites all layers of government, to work positively together to improve the lives of everyone in our countryâ€.
The UK government had a fundamental responsibility to the whole of the country, and that could not be undermined by a devolved administration, she added.
She continued: “In those areas where the UK Government holds the policy levers, we will use them wisely to the benefit of Scottish firms and workers.
“Where the Scottish Government hold the levers, in areas like skills and infrastructure, we will seek to work with them to ensure the best outcomes for Scotland.â€
If you just read the mainstream media you would think the SNP never made any comments or discussed anythingh except another referendum.It was in the SNPO manifesto that they n-might hold another referendum if there was a material change - like brexit. You wouldn't think it from the daily mail but labour and the tories have only one westminster MP each. Please Mrs May tell us we can't have anoher referendum.
I feel for the welsh always an afterthought and they have neil hamilton
Nigel Farage deserves to be made a duke, says Neil Hamilton | The Independent
:-5:-5:-5:-5
What about this farce
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39042666
It's as if they don't think we can do this kind of thing, your starter for ten what nationality was the first director general of the bbc? The one that gave it it's ethos of publiv service broadcasting and impartiality in reporting the news. Poor man will be birling in his grave if he saw the bbc as it is now terified of uopsetting the politiciuand.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
How long has there been a union ? I am no historian so it is a genuine question.
I think the only thing that divides the United Kingdom are superficial differences, mainly, accents local customs and practices and the perception the further away from London you live the less the powers that be care........same as any country.
I think the only thing that divides the United Kingdom are superficial differences, mainly, accents local customs and practices and the perception the further away from London you live the less the powers that be care........same as any country.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
1707 was the union of Scotland with England and Wales, before then they were two countries with the same monarch. 1800 or so we swallowed the island of Ireland into the union, 1923 we released the south of the island of Ireland to be an independent country within the commonwealth, and changed the name of this country to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is currently the name of the country we live in according to the cover of my passport.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
spot;1507094 wrote: 1707 was the union of Scotland with England and Wales, before then they were two countries with the same monarch. 1800 or so we swallowed the island of Ireland into the union, 1923 we released the south of the island of Ireland to be an independent country within the commonwealth, and changed the name of this country to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is currently the name of the country we live in according to the cover of my passport.
And, according to MasterCard, Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man are separate countries, not part of the UK
And, according to MasterCard, Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man are separate countries, not part of the UK
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507091 wrote: How long has there been a union ? I am no historian so it is a genuine question.
I think the only thing that divides the United Kingdom are superficial differences, mainly, accents local customs and practices and the perception the further away from London you live the less the powers that be care........same as any country.
Not so, in 1707 there very much was a different language although time has done away with the differences, lowland scots are very different from the highlands and lowlanders hated the highlanders (the 1745 was not simply england against scotland)
not least because of the religious differences. We also had and still do have a diffferent religion, (church of scotland church of england are not just geographical indicators) our education system is different as is our legal sytem and culture.
You basically highlight the biggest problem westminster and it sems many emnglish people have in understanding scottyish nationalism they think scotland is just a region of england, it's not.
I think the only thing that divides the United Kingdom are superficial differences, mainly, accents local customs and practices and the perception the further away from London you live the less the powers that be care........same as any country.
Not so, in 1707 there very much was a different language although time has done away with the differences, lowland scots are very different from the highlands and lowlanders hated the highlanders (the 1745 was not simply england against scotland)
not least because of the religious differences. We also had and still do have a diffferent religion, (church of scotland church of england are not just geographical indicators) our education system is different as is our legal sytem and culture.
You basically highlight the biggest problem westminster and it sems many emnglish people have in understanding scottyish nationalism they think scotland is just a region of england, it's not.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bryn Mawr;1507099 wrote: And, according to MasterCard, Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man are separate countries, not part of the UK
Perhaps the focus there is on separate tax jurisdictions?
Perhaps the focus there is on separate tax jurisdictions?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
spot;1507102 wrote: Perhaps the focus there is on separate tax jurisdictions?
Makes it a pain trying to define "domestic" transactions.
Makes it a pain trying to define "domestic" transactions.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
gmc;1507100 wrote: Not so, in 1707 there very much was a different language although time has done away with the differences, lowland scots are very different from the highlands and lowlanders hated the highlanders (the 1745 was not simply england against scotland)
not least because of the religious differences. We also had and still do have a diffferent religion, (church of scotland church of england are not just geographical indicators) our education system is different as is our legal sytem and culture.
You basically highlight the biggest problem westminster and it sems many emnglish people have in understanding scottyish nationalism they think scotland is just a region of england, it's not.
You talk of over 250 years ago as if it matters more than the recently bodged together European Common Market that you rate higher than the links between the UK countries ?......sort yourself out man.
There are local cultural differences throughout England, the differences cross border are less on this island than across Europe.
not least because of the religious differences. We also had and still do have a diffferent religion, (church of scotland church of england are not just geographical indicators) our education system is different as is our legal sytem and culture.
You basically highlight the biggest problem westminster and it sems many emnglish people have in understanding scottyish nationalism they think scotland is just a region of england, it's not.
You talk of over 250 years ago as if it matters more than the recently bodged together European Common Market that you rate higher than the links between the UK countries ?......sort yourself out man.
There are local cultural differences throughout England, the differences cross border are less on this island than across Europe.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507108 wrote: You talk of over 250 years ago as if it matters more than the recently bodged together European Common Market that you rate higher than the links between the UK countries ?......sort yourself out man.
There are local cultural differences throughout England, the differences cross border are less on this island than across Europe.
The elephant in the room I can't ignore when this matter comes up is the genuine, purely racist and deeply felt hatred of a sizeable minority of Scots for the English. All of us. It's different from gmc enjoying taking the mickey, it's visceral.
If I thought dissolution of the Union would lead to an era of peace and harmony unprecedented in our mutual history I'd be all for it. At present I do not feel that would be the case. Both Scotland and the minor union of England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the etceteras would I believe be having economic problems on a large scale and while rUK was blaming the EU, Scotland would be blaming England and the hatred would be freshly fertilised.
On the other hand, my main argument for Scotland staying in the Union pre-Brexit vote was access to the EU. That has gone and if I were Scots and had voted union, I'd be seriously considering changing my vote especially since the EU might let Scotland stay in in as a slap to rUK. Depends on the negotiations...
There are local cultural differences throughout England, the differences cross border are less on this island than across Europe.
The elephant in the room I can't ignore when this matter comes up is the genuine, purely racist and deeply felt hatred of a sizeable minority of Scots for the English. All of us. It's different from gmc enjoying taking the mickey, it's visceral.
If I thought dissolution of the Union would lead to an era of peace and harmony unprecedented in our mutual history I'd be all for it. At present I do not feel that would be the case. Both Scotland and the minor union of England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the etceteras would I believe be having economic problems on a large scale and while rUK was blaming the EU, Scotland would be blaming England and the hatred would be freshly fertilised.
On the other hand, my main argument for Scotland staying in the Union pre-Brexit vote was access to the EU. That has gone and if I were Scots and had voted union, I'd be seriously considering changing my vote especially since the EU might let Scotland stay in in as a slap to rUK. Depends on the negotiations...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507108 wrote: You talk of over 250 years ago as if it matters more than the recently bodged together European Common Market that you rate higher than the links between the UK countries ?......sort yourself out man.
There are local cultural differences throughout England, the differences cross border are less on this island than across Europe.
What matters is that scotland is a seperate nation in a union with england wales and ireland. Right now that unoin is very much to our detriment and we have government in westminster that represents a right wing culture and attitude that is almost alien we have not vot6ed for and completely ignores our opinions on anything and constantly tells us we don't actually matter until they are ****ting themselves at the prospect of our declaring independence and they tell lies and make false promises to con us in to not leaving an them don't understand that when the day after the result those promises are thrown out the window we might have a sense of injustice that even those who voted no share. Brexit is possibly the last straw and now theresa May iod making it clear she intends to undermine the devolution settlement by taking back control of devolved matters.
Are you seriously suggestig that after independence the UK will put up tariff barriers against it's biggest trading partner outside of the eu? all the arguments that brextiteers use to kid themselves that the EU will still trade with the UK without those trade barriers equally apply to any UK/scotland split. Much of the trade with england is actually through trade going on to the EU although the actual figureres are carefully ignored. I just passed a spanish lorry which having delivered it's load of vegetable to the lidl depot was on it's way to the neighbouring distillery to pickup a load of whisky for spanish supermarkets just along the road from that is a scottish company selling medical equipment to the USA and the rest of the world the list goes on and on you really think we wouldn't be able to expand our trade with europe and the rest of the world on our own without the handicap of a westminster government getting in the way? You need us arguable it's more amnd more a question of do we need you.
posted by clodhopper
The elephant in the room I can't ignore when this matter comes up is the genuine, purely racist and deeply felt hatred of a sizeable minority of Scots for the English. All of us. It's different from gmc enjoying taking the mickey, it's visceral.
How is that any different from the purely racist deeply felt hated of ukip supporters and the like for any kind of foreigners and those xenopphobic deniers of history that hark back to a non existent past when the rest of the world danced to a tune set by the british empire and inspired by the desire to put two fingers up to our biggest trading partners havinmg been taken in by the nonsense spouted by ukip and the daily mail? You all just voted for a fascist giovernment that wants to undo that socialist bane of their lives called the nhs and create a low wage tax haven on the arse end of europe. Do you really have to ask why scottish independence and another referendum is back on the table?
Homelessness expected to rise further as Government scraps housing benefit for young people | The Independent
you have a cold heart good luck with the tories and the years of auterity still to come.
There are local cultural differences throughout England, the differences cross border are less on this island than across Europe.
What matters is that scotland is a seperate nation in a union with england wales and ireland. Right now that unoin is very much to our detriment and we have government in westminster that represents a right wing culture and attitude that is almost alien we have not vot6ed for and completely ignores our opinions on anything and constantly tells us we don't actually matter until they are ****ting themselves at the prospect of our declaring independence and they tell lies and make false promises to con us in to not leaving an them don't understand that when the day after the result those promises are thrown out the window we might have a sense of injustice that even those who voted no share. Brexit is possibly the last straw and now theresa May iod making it clear she intends to undermine the devolution settlement by taking back control of devolved matters.
Are you seriously suggestig that after independence the UK will put up tariff barriers against it's biggest trading partner outside of the eu? all the arguments that brextiteers use to kid themselves that the EU will still trade with the UK without those trade barriers equally apply to any UK/scotland split. Much of the trade with england is actually through trade going on to the EU although the actual figureres are carefully ignored. I just passed a spanish lorry which having delivered it's load of vegetable to the lidl depot was on it's way to the neighbouring distillery to pickup a load of whisky for spanish supermarkets just along the road from that is a scottish company selling medical equipment to the USA and the rest of the world the list goes on and on you really think we wouldn't be able to expand our trade with europe and the rest of the world on our own without the handicap of a westminster government getting in the way? You need us arguable it's more amnd more a question of do we need you.
posted by clodhopper
The elephant in the room I can't ignore when this matter comes up is the genuine, purely racist and deeply felt hatred of a sizeable minority of Scots for the English. All of us. It's different from gmc enjoying taking the mickey, it's visceral.
How is that any different from the purely racist deeply felt hated of ukip supporters and the like for any kind of foreigners and those xenopphobic deniers of history that hark back to a non existent past when the rest of the world danced to a tune set by the british empire and inspired by the desire to put two fingers up to our biggest trading partners havinmg been taken in by the nonsense spouted by ukip and the daily mail? You all just voted for a fascist giovernment that wants to undo that socialist bane of their lives called the nhs and create a low wage tax haven on the arse end of europe. Do you really have to ask why scottish independence and another referendum is back on the table?
Homelessness expected to rise further as Government scraps housing benefit for young people | The Independent
you have a cold heart good luck with the tories and the years of auterity still to come.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Clodhopper;1507122 wrote: The elephant in the room I can't ignore when this matter comes up is the genuine, purely racist and deeply felt hatred of a sizeable minority of Scots for the English. All of us. It's different from gmc enjoying taking the mickey, it's visceral.
My English daughter and my two English but Scottish speaking grandchildren and another son live in Scotland, the son is just outside Glasgow in Greenock, and as far as I know they have had no trouble.
I know that it is a problem, but there are strong feelings amongst football supporters and across religions, they are the nutty minority and should be watched but ignored much of the time.
My English daughter and my two English but Scottish speaking grandchildren and another son live in Scotland, the son is just outside Glasgow in Greenock, and as far as I know they have had no trouble.
I know that it is a problem, but there are strong feelings amongst football supporters and across religions, they are the nutty minority and should be watched but ignored much of the time.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
gmc;1507126 wrote: What matters is that scotland is a seperate nation in a union with england wales and ireland. Right now that unoin is very much to our detriment and we have government in westminster that represents a right wing culture and attitude that is almost alien we have not vot6ed for and completely ignores our opinions on anything and constantly tells us we don't actually matter until they are ****ting themselves at the prospect of our declaring independence and they tell lies and make false promises to con us in to not leaving an them don't understand that when the day after the result those promises are thrown out the window we might have a sense of injustice that even those who voted no share. Brexit is possibly the last straw and now theresa May iod making it clear she intends to undermine the devolution settlement by taking back control of devolved matters.
The union has been in place for centuries, there have been areas all around the country that are strong either Labour or Tory for years and years that could say the same sort of thing, in that their voice is unheard......that's our democracy for you.
The union has been in place for centuries, there have been areas all around the country that are strong either Labour or Tory for years and years that could say the same sort of thing, in that their voice is unheard......that's our democracy for you.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
We are four nations, but at heart one people
spot;1507084 wrote: That's what Theresa May says, anyway.
PM Theresa May makes case for 'our precious Union' - BBC News
Ms May is misinformed.
What we are, Ms May, is two nations plus a principality and a province. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
We are also three peoples. We are the English, the Scots and the Welsh. The proddy Ulstermen are belligerent rogues left over from Cromwell's genocidal plantation policy and the long-suffering papists are Irish, neither category being a British People.
The sooner the British Isles become three independent sovereign nations the better, unless anyone thinks Welsh independence would be a good move too.
I note in passing that, for the first time in my life, I do not know the marital status of the Prime Minister.
Finally admitted on an international forum..... im almost impressed.
PM Theresa May makes case for 'our precious Union' - BBC News
Ms May is misinformed.
What we are, Ms May, is two nations plus a principality and a province. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
We are also three peoples. We are the English, the Scots and the Welsh. The proddy Ulstermen are belligerent rogues left over from Cromwell's genocidal plantation policy and the long-suffering papists are Irish, neither category being a British People.
The sooner the British Isles become three independent sovereign nations the better, unless anyone thinks Welsh independence would be a good move too.
I note in passing that, for the first time in my life, I do not know the marital status of the Prime Minister.
Finally admitted on an international forum..... im almost impressed.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
We are four nations, but at heart one people
How is that any different from the purely racist deeply felt hated of ukip supporters and the like for any kind of foreigners and those xenopphobic deniers of history that hark back to a non existent past when the rest of the world danced to a tune set by the british empire and inspired by the desire to put two fingers up to our biggest trading partners havinmg been taken in by the nonsense spouted by ukip and the daily mail? You all just voted for a fascist giovernment that wants to undo that socialist bane of their lives called the nhs and create a low wage tax haven on the arse end of europe. Do you really have to ask why scottish independence and another referendum is back on the table?
Homelessness expected to rise further as Government scraps housing benefit for young people | The Independent
you have a cold heart good luck with the tories and the years of auterity still to come.
I agree with you and I voted Remain (and helped vote Goldsmith out of the Richmond Park constituency which was the only enjoyable thing in the whole sorry mess). I also said that my argument against Scots independence had been access to the EU and the argument has been nullified. It's possible you might find a way round Spain's opposition given brexit. Oh, and I'm starting to see more people talking about moving to Scotland if you go independent and stay in the EU (or join it in your own right having left the UK, which might just get round Spain since they aren't leaving the EU so it's a different situation and not so much of a precedent for the Basques and Catalans. Possibly.)
My English daughter and my two English but Scottish speaking grandchildren and another son live in Scotland, the son is just outside Glasgow in Greenock, and as far as I know they have had no trouble.
I know that it is a problem, but there are strong feelings amongst football supporters and across religions, they are the nutty minority and should be watched but ignored much of the time.
Glad to hear it. My recent information came from an old acquaintance whose sister lives up there and she visits. Her view is that it's been getting worse the last few years. Either way, my point is it's there and it's real, just as real as the majority of Scots who don't lower themselves to that level. In the turmoil that would follow the various exits I think there'd be ample opportunity for hatred to spread and grow on all sides in all directions. Especially if there was considerable English migration North.
The fractures within England show no sign of lessening. The opposite in fact, with all the angst of negotiations ahead and the bad feeling that will inevitably be created and expressed on forums across the internet.
Homelessness expected to rise further as Government scraps housing benefit for young people | The Independent
you have a cold heart good luck with the tories and the years of auterity still to come.
I agree with you and I voted Remain (and helped vote Goldsmith out of the Richmond Park constituency which was the only enjoyable thing in the whole sorry mess). I also said that my argument against Scots independence had been access to the EU and the argument has been nullified. It's possible you might find a way round Spain's opposition given brexit. Oh, and I'm starting to see more people talking about moving to Scotland if you go independent and stay in the EU (or join it in your own right having left the UK, which might just get round Spain since they aren't leaving the EU so it's a different situation and not so much of a precedent for the Basques and Catalans. Possibly.)
My English daughter and my two English but Scottish speaking grandchildren and another son live in Scotland, the son is just outside Glasgow in Greenock, and as far as I know they have had no trouble.
I know that it is a problem, but there are strong feelings amongst football supporters and across religions, they are the nutty minority and should be watched but ignored much of the time.
Glad to hear it. My recent information came from an old acquaintance whose sister lives up there and she visits. Her view is that it's been getting worse the last few years. Either way, my point is it's there and it's real, just as real as the majority of Scots who don't lower themselves to that level. In the turmoil that would follow the various exits I think there'd be ample opportunity for hatred to spread and grow on all sides in all directions. Especially if there was considerable English migration North.
The fractures within England show no sign of lessening. The opposite in fact, with all the angst of negotiations ahead and the bad feeling that will inevitably be created and expressed on forums across the internet.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507128 wrote: The union has been in place for centuries, there have been areas all around the country that are strong either Labour or Tory for years and years that could say the same sort of thing, in that their voice is unheard......that's our democracy for you.
You still miss the point that scotland is not just a region of england it's a seperate nation joined in a political union that is inceasingly to ouyr disadvantage. It's not democracy when we have policies imposed on us by a government we did not elect and do not support now we are being taken ouyt of the eu against our will most scots are bright enough to understanbd the impact it might have and even the fisherman and farmers who voted to leave have realised the prospect of policy being set by westminster is actually a far worse prospect.
My English daughter and my two English but Scottish speaking grandchildren and another son live in Scotland, the son is just outside Glasgow in Greenock, and as far as I know they have had no trouble.
I know that it is a problem, but there are strong feelings amongst football supporters and across religions, they are the nutty minority and should be watched but ignored much of the time.
neither did my english wife or her english family nor do my three english neighbours.
You need to stop reading the daily mail
You still miss the point that scotland is not just a region of england it's a seperate nation joined in a political union that is inceasingly to ouyr disadvantage. It's not democracy when we have policies imposed on us by a government we did not elect and do not support now we are being taken ouyt of the eu against our will most scots are bright enough to understanbd the impact it might have and even the fisherman and farmers who voted to leave have realised the prospect of policy being set by westminster is actually a far worse prospect.
My English daughter and my two English but Scottish speaking grandchildren and another son live in Scotland, the son is just outside Glasgow in Greenock, and as far as I know they have had no trouble.
I know that it is a problem, but there are strong feelings amongst football supporters and across religions, they are the nutty minority and should be watched but ignored much of the time.
neither did my english wife or her english family nor do my three english neighbours.
You need to stop reading the daily mail
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Well it's on.
Nicola Sturgeon to seek second referendum on Scottish independence (From The National)
“It is important that Scotland is able to exercise the right to choose our own future at a time when the options are clearer than they are now, but before it is too late to decide on our own path. By the time a choice comes to be made, there must be greater clarity about Brexit and its implications for us.
“It is just as important that there is clarity about the implications of independence. And there will be.
“We will be frank about the challenges we face and clear about the opportunities independence will give us to secure our relationship with Europe, build a stronger and more sustainable economy and create a fairer society.
“If I ruled out a referendum, I would be deciding, completely unilaterally, that Scotland will follow the UK to a hard Brexit come-what-may, no matter how damaging to our economy and our society it turns out to be.
“That should not be the decision of just one politician – not even the First Minister. It will be decided by the people of Scotland. It will be Scotland's choice.â€
Or you can read the crap in the daily mail and daily telegraph.
Recent surveys have suggested the result is on a knife edge, with some showing a 50-50 split.
The bombshell announcement comes with parliament on the verge of passing legislation allowing Mrs May to trigger Article 50.
Hardly a bombshell It was in the manifesto before an election that saw the snp sweep the board at the last general election leaving one tory mp, one labour and one libdem. Before the last referendum less than 30% supported independence now it's 50/50.
Lets face it the main reason so many in england's political establishment are opposed to scottish independence is they know without us they are stuffed if northern ireland go as well which may also be on the cards thimgs should get interesting. I hope the tories in westminster are stupid enough to say no to a second referendum the collective up yours from the scots would be wonderful to behold.
Nicola Sturgeon to seek second referendum on Scottish independence (From The National)
“It is important that Scotland is able to exercise the right to choose our own future at a time when the options are clearer than they are now, but before it is too late to decide on our own path. By the time a choice comes to be made, there must be greater clarity about Brexit and its implications for us.
“It is just as important that there is clarity about the implications of independence. And there will be.
“We will be frank about the challenges we face and clear about the opportunities independence will give us to secure our relationship with Europe, build a stronger and more sustainable economy and create a fairer society.
“If I ruled out a referendum, I would be deciding, completely unilaterally, that Scotland will follow the UK to a hard Brexit come-what-may, no matter how damaging to our economy and our society it turns out to be.
“That should not be the decision of just one politician – not even the First Minister. It will be decided by the people of Scotland. It will be Scotland's choice.â€
Or you can read the crap in the daily mail and daily telegraph.
Recent surveys have suggested the result is on a knife edge, with some showing a 50-50 split.
The bombshell announcement comes with parliament on the verge of passing legislation allowing Mrs May to trigger Article 50.
Hardly a bombshell It was in the manifesto before an election that saw the snp sweep the board at the last general election leaving one tory mp, one labour and one libdem. Before the last referendum less than 30% supported independence now it's 50/50.
Lets face it the main reason so many in england's political establishment are opposed to scottish independence is they know without us they are stuffed if northern ireland go as well which may also be on the cards thimgs should get interesting. I hope the tories in westminster are stupid enough to say no to a second referendum the collective up yours from the scots would be wonderful to behold.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Why is there such a rise everywhere in the feeling of wanting independence ?
I understand Theresa May has the final say whether there is another referendum or not, I don't see her easily agreeing pre brexit.
Why do you insist on England's political establishment being 'stuffed' by an independent Scotland ?
I understand Theresa May has the final say whether there is another referendum or not, I don't see her easily agreeing pre brexit.
Why do you insist on England's political establishment being 'stuffed' by an independent Scotland ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507491 wrote: Why is there such a rise everywhere in the feeling of wanting independence ?
I understand Theresa May has the final say whether there is another referendum or not, I don't see her easily agreeing pre brexit.
Why do you insist on England's political establishment being 'stuffed' by an independent Scotland ?
It's seems a reasonable assumption based on the amount of vitriol, misinformation and generally hostile press the subject gets whenever the matter comes up it's almost as if we should not have the tenerity to challenge the status quo. If you have rational case for us not leaving let's hear it but you don't hear it presumably because there isn't one especially in lighht of what is happening to uk democracy. I'm tired of hearing that the british people voted to leave the eu and opponents to brexit should just shut up. Without scotland england is in trouible we'll be OK with a scottish government proportionately elected that can really be held to account. You've got the tories.
I understand Theresa May has the final say whether there is another referendum or not, I don't see her easily agreeing pre brexit.
Why do you insist on England's political establishment being 'stuffed' by an independent Scotland ?
It's seems a reasonable assumption based on the amount of vitriol, misinformation and generally hostile press the subject gets whenever the matter comes up it's almost as if we should not have the tenerity to challenge the status quo. If you have rational case for us not leaving let's hear it but you don't hear it presumably because there isn't one especially in lighht of what is happening to uk democracy. I'm tired of hearing that the british people voted to leave the eu and opponents to brexit should just shut up. Without scotland england is in trouible we'll be OK with a scottish government proportionately elected that can really be held to account. You've got the tories.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
And you reply with a Australian racist, misogynist, drunk ? .................Allegedly.
You said it yourself.......the British people voted.....Scotland is British, you put up with previous election results you didn't like, I have to put up with it all the time................what has changed ?
If you feel the need to change the status quo, why not change it for your fellow Brits too ?
Don't take it personally.......but it smells like a petulant teenager having a tantrum, leaving home every time there are differences in the home, slamming the door as you leave screaming "No body listens to me, nobody loves me"
You said it yourself.......the British people voted.....Scotland is British, you put up with previous election results you didn't like, I have to put up with it all the time................what has changed ?
If you feel the need to change the status quo, why not change it for your fellow Brits too ?
Don't take it personally.......but it smells like a petulant teenager having a tantrum, leaving home every time there are differences in the home, slamming the door as you leave screaming "No body listens to me, nobody loves me"
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507498 wrote: And you reply with a Australian racist, misogynist, drunk ? .................Allegedly.
You said it yourself.......the British people voted.....Scotland is British, you put up with previous election results you didn't like, I have to put up with it all the time................what has changed ?
If you feel the need to change the status quo, why not change it for your fellow Brits too ?
Don't take it personally.......but it smells like a petulant teenager having a tantrum, leaving home every time there are differences in the home, slamming the door as you leave screaming "No body listens to me, nobody loves me"
I don't take ib personally. passionate debate and disagreement is possible without people actually falling out over it - especially on an anonymous non face to face discussion forum.
Don't take it personally.......but it smells like a petulant teenager having a tantrum, leaving home every time there are differences in the home, slamming the door as you leave screaming "No body listens to me, nobody loves me
That's the way it gets portrayed in the mainstream media but the level of debate in scotland about this is way above being childish. Most of the tantrums come from the unionist side who seem unable to present cohesive argumentswithout trying to talk over and try and shout down their opponents think farage in debate he dos his best to stop people talking or actually answer any questions except to say I never mentioned £350 million a year for the NHS.
mel gibson drunk, mysoginist, racist as one scottish comedian put it maybe he's really is scots at heart. :sneaky: I thought the humour might appeal.
You said it yourself.......the British people voted.....Scotland is British, you put up with previous election results you didn't like, I have to put up with it all the time................what has changed ?
In 1914 there was a home rule for scotland in the offing We lost one on seven of our male population in ww1
Scottish independence: The parliament that never was - BBC News
We are now in a position to do something about it it's as simple as that and unlike inn 1914 the ordinary people get to vote in elections as do women and indeed we have a female politician in the driving seat not alex salmond controlling thin gs rom behind the cenes as the likes of the daily mail and telegraph like to pretend.
Now Boris johmston wants to save the british ecoinomy by building a new royal yacht
New Royal Yacht Britannia would attract 'overwhelming support' and will be considered by ministers, Boris Johnson announces in Parliament
The NHS is on the verge of being privatised our welfare systenm is a shambles but we have trident and a new royal yacht - You idiots voted for these people. The opposition to brexit hasn't gone away or lost the argument you just don't hear anythi9ng about it any more as our politricians all line up to leap of the cliff created buy their own stupidity. Apart from the racists and general idiots in our population I suspect many of those who voted to leave as a way of protest or who didn't bother to vote since there seemed little point would love a chance to run it all again.
You said it yourself.......the British people voted.....Scotland is British, you put up with previous election results you didn't like, I have to put up with it all the time................what has changed ?
If you feel the need to change the status quo, why not change it for your fellow Brits too ?
Don't take it personally.......but it smells like a petulant teenager having a tantrum, leaving home every time there are differences in the home, slamming the door as you leave screaming "No body listens to me, nobody loves me"
I don't take ib personally. passionate debate and disagreement is possible without people actually falling out over it - especially on an anonymous non face to face discussion forum.
Don't take it personally.......but it smells like a petulant teenager having a tantrum, leaving home every time there are differences in the home, slamming the door as you leave screaming "No body listens to me, nobody loves me
That's the way it gets portrayed in the mainstream media but the level of debate in scotland about this is way above being childish. Most of the tantrums come from the unionist side who seem unable to present cohesive argumentswithout trying to talk over and try and shout down their opponents think farage in debate he dos his best to stop people talking or actually answer any questions except to say I never mentioned £350 million a year for the NHS.
mel gibson drunk, mysoginist, racist as one scottish comedian put it maybe he's really is scots at heart. :sneaky: I thought the humour might appeal.
You said it yourself.......the British people voted.....Scotland is British, you put up with previous election results you didn't like, I have to put up with it all the time................what has changed ?
In 1914 there was a home rule for scotland in the offing We lost one on seven of our male population in ww1
Scottish independence: The parliament that never was - BBC News
We are now in a position to do something about it it's as simple as that and unlike inn 1914 the ordinary people get to vote in elections as do women and indeed we have a female politician in the driving seat not alex salmond controlling thin gs rom behind the cenes as the likes of the daily mail and telegraph like to pretend.
Now Boris johmston wants to save the british ecoinomy by building a new royal yacht
New Royal Yacht Britannia would attract 'overwhelming support' and will be considered by ministers, Boris Johnson announces in Parliament
The NHS is on the verge of being privatised our welfare systenm is a shambles but we have trident and a new royal yacht - You idiots voted for these people. The opposition to brexit hasn't gone away or lost the argument you just don't hear anythi9ng about it any more as our politricians all line up to leap of the cliff created buy their own stupidity. Apart from the racists and general idiots in our population I suspect many of those who voted to leave as a way of protest or who didn't bother to vote since there seemed little point would love a chance to run it all again.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
We are four nations, but at heart one people
You idiots voted for these people
17 million voted for brexit. 16 million voted against. 47 million didn't vote. That includes Scots on all sides. I don't accuse you of being a racist because you are Scottish; please don't accuse me of voting brexit because I'm English. I'm not a far right racist, small town xenophobe or someone duped into voting for their cause.
Independence for London. We don't need these UK parasites leeching off us.
17 million voted for brexit. 16 million voted against. 47 million didn't vote. That includes Scots on all sides. I don't accuse you of being a racist because you are Scottish; please don't accuse me of voting brexit because I'm English. I'm not a far right racist, small town xenophobe or someone duped into voting for their cause.
Independence for London. We don't need these UK parasites leeching off us.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Another analogy might be that The Union is a marriage, and it has been a long one.
All of a sudden Scotland despite lots dieing in wars over many years in the name of The Union,'sharing' their oil riches with us all, hosting naval and air bases for the protection of The Union, chipping into the treasury and receiving funding back....like any marriage, now because of a disagreement over a show of hands around the dinner table.....figuratively.......the wife out voted wants to withdraw and go home to her mother.
Why NOW ????
According to the beleavers (I invented that word) Scotland has had the shi11y end of the stick for ever and ever......so why now ?
All of a sudden Scotland despite lots dieing in wars over many years in the name of The Union,'sharing' their oil riches with us all, hosting naval and air bases for the protection of The Union, chipping into the treasury and receiving funding back....like any marriage, now because of a disagreement over a show of hands around the dinner table.....figuratively.......the wife out voted wants to withdraw and go home to her mother.
Why NOW ????
According to the beleavers (I invented that word) Scotland has had the shi11y end of the stick for ever and ever......so why now ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Clodhopper;1507508 wrote: 17 million voted for brexit. 16 million voted against. 47 million didn't vote. That includes Scots on all sides. I don't accuse you of being a racist because you are Scottish; please don't accuse me of voting brexit because I'm English. I'm not a far right racist, small town xenophobe or someone duped into voting for their cause.
Independence for London. We don't need these UK parasites leeching off us.
My apologies if i caused offence No offence was intended. I know you didn't vote to leave it was a general comment aimed at the tendency you have (down south anf for some reason in dumfries and galloway) to keep electing tory governments. Although quite frankly IMO anyone that voted for the likes of farage and boris and actually believed the nonsense they came out with IS an idiot. Now we have politicians going for a hard brexit to pander to the same idiots regardless of the consequences.
posted by bruv
Another analogy might be that The Union is a marriage, and it has been a long one.
All of a sudden Scotland despite lots dieing in wars over many years in the name of The Union,'sharing' their oil riches with us all, hosting naval and air bases for the protection of The Union, chipping into the treasury and receiving funding back....like any marriage, now because of a disagreement over a show of hands around the dinner table.....figuratively.......the wife out voted wants to withdraw and go home to her mother.
Why NOW ????
According to the beleavers (I invented that word) Scotland has had the shi11y end of the stick for ever and ever......so why now ?
Because the stupid pillock we are in a union with is determined to pursue a course of economic suicide and refuses to listen to what anyone is saying to them. Irreconcilable differences. Now we have an abusive partner that seems determined to stop us leaving no matter what it takes. The nonsense coming out already is unbelieveable.
We don't hav to take it any more we are economically independent and would be better off on our own.
Independence for London. We don't need these UK parasites leeching off us.
My apologies if i caused offence No offence was intended. I know you didn't vote to leave it was a general comment aimed at the tendency you have (down south anf for some reason in dumfries and galloway) to keep electing tory governments. Although quite frankly IMO anyone that voted for the likes of farage and boris and actually believed the nonsense they came out with IS an idiot. Now we have politicians going for a hard brexit to pander to the same idiots regardless of the consequences.
posted by bruv
Another analogy might be that The Union is a marriage, and it has been a long one.
All of a sudden Scotland despite lots dieing in wars over many years in the name of The Union,'sharing' their oil riches with us all, hosting naval and air bases for the protection of The Union, chipping into the treasury and receiving funding back....like any marriage, now because of a disagreement over a show of hands around the dinner table.....figuratively.......the wife out voted wants to withdraw and go home to her mother.
Why NOW ????
According to the beleavers (I invented that word) Scotland has had the shi11y end of the stick for ever and ever......so why now ?
Because the stupid pillock we are in a union with is determined to pursue a course of economic suicide and refuses to listen to what anyone is saying to them. Irreconcilable differences. Now we have an abusive partner that seems determined to stop us leaving no matter what it takes. The nonsense coming out already is unbelieveable.
We don't hav to take it any more we are economically independent and would be better off on our own.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Clodhopper;1507508 wrote: 17 million voted for brexit. 16 million voted against. 47 million didn't vote. That includes Scots on all sides. I don't accuse you of being a racist because you are Scottish; please don't accuse me of voting brexit because I'm English. I'm not a far right racist, small town xenophobe or someone duped into voting for their cause.
Independence for London. We don't need these UK parasites leeching off us.
Sorry but there are NOT eighty million people in the UK even on a bad day and if you take out children POHMs and others ineligible to vote it's not much more than half that.
Independence for London. We don't need these UK parasites leeching off us.
Sorry but there are NOT eighty million people in the UK even on a bad day and if you take out children POHMs and others ineligible to vote it's not much more than half that.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Now Northern ireland might be in line for a refrndum as well.
Theresa May says no Northern Ireland referendum on leaving the UK 'at this stage' | The Independent
'Stick border where sun doesn't shine' says Martina Anderson - BBC News
Sinn Féin MEP Martina Anderson addressed the European parliament, rejecting any kind of border in Ireland after Brexit.
She said rather than listen to concerns over Brexit, Ireland had been told to "get over it" and added "no border hard or soft would be accepted in Ireland".
Referring to Prime Minister Theresa May, she said: "Theresa, your notion of a border, hard and soft, stick it where the sun doesn't shine 'cos you're not putting it in Ireland."
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
What about the welsh? Scotoland and ireland I can see making a go of it but Wales?
Theresa May says no Northern Ireland referendum on leaving the UK 'at this stage' | The Independent
'Stick border where sun doesn't shine' says Martina Anderson - BBC News
Sinn Féin MEP Martina Anderson addressed the European parliament, rejecting any kind of border in Ireland after Brexit.
She said rather than listen to concerns over Brexit, Ireland had been told to "get over it" and added "no border hard or soft would be accepted in Ireland".
Referring to Prime Minister Theresa May, she said: "Theresa, your notion of a border, hard and soft, stick it where the sun doesn't shine 'cos you're not putting it in Ireland."
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
What about the welsh? Scotoland and ireland I can see making a go of it but Wales?
We are four nations, but at heart one people
I reckon we need a trial separation.
One side believes they are independently financially viable, the other disagrees................A trial away from each other is the only way.
One side believes they are independently financially viable, the other disagrees................A trial away from each other is the only way.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Too late for counselling.
Theresa May warns Nicola Sturgeon now is 'not the time to play politics or create uncertainty'
Theresa May warns Nicola Sturgeon now is 'not the time to play politics or create uncertainty'
You have to laugh who created the uncertainty in the first place. The scottish givernment have tried to talk to theresa and have put forward proposals which weren't rejected they were just completely ignored she quite clearly thinks scotland doesn't matter in all of this.
Theresa May warns Nicola Sturgeon now is 'not the time to play politics or create uncertainty'
Theresa May warns Nicola Sturgeon now is 'not the time to play politics or create uncertainty'
You have to laugh who created the uncertainty in the first place. The scottish givernment have tried to talk to theresa and have put forward proposals which weren't rejected they were just completely ignored she quite clearly thinks scotland doesn't matter in all of this.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
gmc;1507526 wrote: Too late for counselling.
Theresa May warns Nicola Sturgeon now is 'not the time to play politics or create uncertainty'
You have to laugh who created the uncertainty in the first place. The scottish givernment have tried to talk to theresa and have put forward proposals which weren't rejected they were just completely ignored she quite clearly thinks scotland doesn't matter in all of this.
She does have a mandate from the whole of the UK electorate to proceed with, she can't listen to every fractious faction.
Theresa May warns Nicola Sturgeon now is 'not the time to play politics or create uncertainty'
You have to laugh who created the uncertainty in the first place. The scottish givernment have tried to talk to theresa and have put forward proposals which weren't rejected they were just completely ignored she quite clearly thinks scotland doesn't matter in all of this.
She does have a mandate from the whole of the UK electorate to proceed with, she can't listen to every fractious faction.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507530 wrote: She does have a mandate from the whole of the UK electorate to proceed with, she can't listen to every fractious faction.
She heads a government that won only 37% of the votes cast and she wasn't the leader of the tory party at the time of the election in scotland there is on tory MP out of a possible 52 to believ that a government that 2/3rds o the populatuion actually opposes and votes against if you think that gives her a mandate from the whole of the uk electorate then I would put it to you have a rather panglossian view of things to pit it mildly.
The referendum result was as much an anti establishment vote as it had anything tio do with europe an to suggest we should be bilked in to a course of action that will destrpy the fabric of our society and economy without taking the sensible course of econsidering before that final step is position I totally reject. This is brought about by a squabble amongst puiblic schoolboys with a sense of entitlement to prattle on about taking back control of our democracy and then hand it to a bunch or right wing fascists without a mandate to rule and a prime minister that no one has had the chance to vote for because of an unbritish referendum is absurd.
she can't listen to every fractious faction
I'll type this slowly becuse I'm geting fed up going back to correct the mistakes . Scotland is not a faction in the united kingdom it is suppose to be an equal partner in a union of nations. The snp had the possibility of a second referndum in their manifesto Nocola stirgean was the leader of the party and on that basis they all but wiped out labour and the tories at the last election. Just acceot it and stop believing what you read in the daily mail.
She heads a government that won only 37% of the votes cast and she wasn't the leader of the tory party at the time of the election in scotland there is on tory MP out of a possible 52 to believ that a government that 2/3rds o the populatuion actually opposes and votes against if you think that gives her a mandate from the whole of the uk electorate then I would put it to you have a rather panglossian view of things to pit it mildly.
The referendum result was as much an anti establishment vote as it had anything tio do with europe an to suggest we should be bilked in to a course of action that will destrpy the fabric of our society and economy without taking the sensible course of econsidering before that final step is position I totally reject. This is brought about by a squabble amongst puiblic schoolboys with a sense of entitlement to prattle on about taking back control of our democracy and then hand it to a bunch or right wing fascists without a mandate to rule and a prime minister that no one has had the chance to vote for because of an unbritish referendum is absurd.
she can't listen to every fractious faction
I'll type this slowly becuse I'm geting fed up going back to correct the mistakes . Scotland is not a faction in the united kingdom it is suppose to be an equal partner in a union of nations. The snp had the possibility of a second referndum in their manifesto Nocola stirgean was the leader of the party and on that basis they all but wiped out labour and the tories at the last election. Just acceot it and stop believing what you read in the daily mail.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
That is only your interpretation of the events, with your own political slant/bias.
That is fair enough, but if the system is broken it is broken UK wide.
That is fair enough, but if the system is broken it is broken UK wide.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507540 wrote: That is only your interpretation of the events, with your own political slant/bias.
That is fair enough, but if the system is broken it is broken UK wide.
Yes it is but if you in a sinking ship and told you have to stay in it wouldn't you use the lifeboat if you could?
That is fair enough, but if the system is broken it is broken UK wide.
Yes it is but if you in a sinking ship and told you have to stay in it wouldn't you use the lifeboat if you could?
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507530 wrote: She does have a mandate from the whole of the UK electorate to proceed with, she can't listen to every fractious faction.
The Westminster government has not been listening for years, this is just the latest in a long line of issues.
The Westminster government has not been listening for years, this is just the latest in a long line of issues.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507540 wrote: That is only your interpretation of the events, with your own political slant/bias.
That is fair enough, but if the system is broken it is broken UK wide.
The system is broken big time and not just in the UK.
That is fair enough, but if the system is broken it is broken UK wide.
The system is broken big time and not just in the UK.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bryn Mawr;1507554 wrote: The system is broken big time and not just in the UK.
Why ? And why has it shown up now ?
I know what you are saying, but nothing I can put my finger on has altered that drastically to throw the system out of working order, can you spot the problem ?
Why ? And why has it shown up now ?
I know what you are saying, but nothing I can put my finger on has altered that drastically to throw the system out of working order, can you spot the problem ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507555 wrote: Why ? And why has it shown up now ?
I know what you are saying, but nothing I can put my finger on has altered that drastically to throw the system out of working order, can you spot the problem ?
As far as I can see it's been growing since the seventies.
After the war we, and many others, were too close to bankruptcy but with the recovery, starting with the rise of the teenage buyer in the sixties and a rise in disposable income for families in the seventies there was a change in attitude. The sixties might have been a time of love and peace man but as people got used to having money they wanted more and it morphed into the me to era of the eighties.
Then there was the downturn of the nineties and attitudes hardened further - we'd had it and we wanted more of it, who can we blame.
From there the path was clear for those who would promise the most to get into power and for the media (by now in the hands of fewer and fewer people with ever more extreme agendas) to manipulate public opinion to there own ends.
So now we are pushed into and us and them mentality deamonizing whole swathes of the world's population and fed any lies going by the politicians to get power - no matter that it's exposed as bull**** the day after the election, by then they're in.
Broken? No - it's just the way of the world
I know what you are saying, but nothing I can put my finger on has altered that drastically to throw the system out of working order, can you spot the problem ?
As far as I can see it's been growing since the seventies.
After the war we, and many others, were too close to bankruptcy but with the recovery, starting with the rise of the teenage buyer in the sixties and a rise in disposable income for families in the seventies there was a change in attitude. The sixties might have been a time of love and peace man but as people got used to having money they wanted more and it morphed into the me to era of the eighties.
Then there was the downturn of the nineties and attitudes hardened further - we'd had it and we wanted more of it, who can we blame.
From there the path was clear for those who would promise the most to get into power and for the media (by now in the hands of fewer and fewer people with ever more extreme agendas) to manipulate public opinion to there own ends.
So now we are pushed into and us and them mentality deamonizing whole swathes of the world's population and fed any lies going by the politicians to get power - no matter that it's exposed as bull**** the day after the election, by then they're in.
Broken? No - it's just the way of the world
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Our parliamentary an legal systems arose out of a need and desite to control the depradations of the powerful on the weal. Instead of monarchy and arisrtocracy nowadays it's more about big corporations our first past the post system means parliamentarians know they don;t really need to waste time persuading people and if they get a big enough majority they can do what they want as it's really hard for any new party to get a toe in the door no matter how many votes they actually get. I onl;t like ukip but they shoukld have more than one MP. We had a chanc with the referendum on PR which is a sytem(IMO) most would agree with if they actually got a chanc to take in=t in and understand it but the libdems blew it. It's not going to get fixed any time soon.
In scotlab we have PR and the result is more people than ever before vote and take an interest in politics because their voite does actually count and they can impact directly on the next election if not happy. I suspect the same would happen in england and wales given half a chance. To listen to thresa may critrucing the snp for wanting to leave a union with their biggest trading partner and craeting uncertainty and divison is hilarious and other claims that the snp are creating a one party state even funnier.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/151588 ... overnment/
David Davis admits he doesn't know the economic impact of a hard Brexit and has no plans to meet with the Scottish Government
Let's all hold hand and jump off the cliff together. If you were vin a union with a psychotic suicidal numpty wouldn't you want to leve?
If you want to know what the snp are actually saying and doing or hiowe much support a seciond referendum has don't read the daily mail or watch question time. Saw it last night from sunderland they had atory MP who said thre ouit o four scots don't want a secong referendum, the SNP MP on the panel was stopped from challenging him. All brexeteers have by way of debating tactics is Ya boo we won the referndum now shut up.
In scotlab we have PR and the result is more people than ever before vote and take an interest in politics because their voite does actually count and they can impact directly on the next election if not happy. I suspect the same would happen in england and wales given half a chance. To listen to thresa may critrucing the snp for wanting to leave a union with their biggest trading partner and craeting uncertainty and divison is hilarious and other claims that the snp are creating a one party state even funnier.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/151588 ... overnment/
David Davis admits he doesn't know the economic impact of a hard Brexit and has no plans to meet with the Scottish Government
Let's all hold hand and jump off the cliff together. If you were vin a union with a psychotic suicidal numpty wouldn't you want to leve?
If you want to know what the snp are actually saying and doing or hiowe much support a seciond referendum has don't read the daily mail or watch question time. Saw it last night from sunderland they had atory MP who said thre ouit o four scots don't want a secong referendum, the SNP MP on the panel was stopped from challenging him. All brexeteers have by way of debating tactics is Ya boo we won the referndum now shut up.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
gmc;1507566 wrote: Our parliamentary an legal systems arose out of a need and desite to control the depradations of the powerful on the weal.If by "weal" you mean (from the OED) "The welfare of a country or community; the general good. Often with defining word, as common, general, public" then, for the parliamentary system, yes sort of. The powerful to be checked was invariably the royal court, the parliamentarians were invariably there to represent the wealthy beyond the court in the City or in the shires. But the people who actually generated the common wealth of the community - the peasants working the land on behalf of the feudal overlord - had no place at all in any of that, though they bore the brunt of the depredations you mention.
The legal system, on the other hand, arose out of the wealthy's desire to control the masses and had nothing to do with the common good, it arose completely the other way about and a lot lot earlier. No poor man ever created or imposed a law. No officer of the law ever accounted to the powerless.
The legal system, on the other hand, arose out of the wealthy's desire to control the masses and had nothing to do with the common good, it arose completely the other way about and a lot lot earlier. No poor man ever created or imposed a law. No officer of the law ever accounted to the powerless.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Oh for Pete's sake gmc........proof read before hitting the post button.....that was painful.
So it is all down to greed and personal integrity ?
So it is all down to greed and personal integrity ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bruv;1507569 wrote: proof read before hitting the post buttonMy browser always underlines all typed non-dictionary words in red, and a right click on each offers conventional alternatives. Without that assistance my posts would not be a model of clarity.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
spot;1507570 wrote: My browser always underlines all typed non-dictionary words in red, and a right click on each offers conventional alternatives. Without that assistance my posts would not be a model of clarity.
And you still insist on using reed red out of context ?
I wouldn't bother right clicking mate.................let it all hang out.
And you still insist on using reed red out of context ?
I wouldn't bother right clicking mate.................let it all hang out.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
Bryn Mawr;1507554 wrote: The system is broken big time and not just in the UK.
Amen to that. Trump announced his budget yesterday. The upshot is that he's increasing military spending by a lot and slashing everything that helps people or their environment.
Amen to that. Trump announced his budget yesterday. The upshot is that he's increasing military spending by a lot and slashing everything that helps people or their environment.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
spot;1507568 wrote: If by "weal" you mean (from the OED) "The welfare of a country or community; the general good. Often with defining word, as common, general, public" then, for the parliamentary system, yes sort of. The powerful to be checked was invariably the royal court, the parliamentarians were invariably there to represent the wealthy beyond the court in the City or in the shires. But the people who actually generated the common wealth of the community - the peasants working the land on behalf of the feudal overlord - had no place at all in any of that, though they bore the brunt of the depredations you mention.
The legal system, on the other hand, arose out of the wealthy's desire to control the masses and had nothing to do with the common good, it arose completely the other way about and a lot lot earlier. No poor man ever created or imposed a law. No officer of the law ever accounted to the powerless.
I meant to type weak not weal.
posted by bruv
Oh for Pete's sake gmc........proof read before hitting the post button.....that was painful.
You do kmow the K and L are side by side don't you? I do proof read I just don't notice that's why my career as a proof reader never took off.
The legal system, on the other hand, arose out of the wealthy's desire to control the masses and had nothing to do with the common good, it arose completely the other way about and a lot lot earlier. No poor man ever created or imposed a law. No officer of the law ever accounted to the powerless.
True to some extent but the legal system was shaped by people standing up for themselves to defend themselves from the aristocracy that newer groups with neconomic power go on to abuse the sytem for their own benefit - it seems to be human nature. I always think the english civil war is a great example of what happens when you have an angry population that put the powerful on the back foot then invariably the prospects for an equitable society get trampled into the dirt. The putney debates make fascinating reading about what could have been and the same arguments come up time and time again.
The legal system, on the other hand, arose out of the wealthy's desire to control the masses and had nothing to do with the common good, it arose completely the other way about and a lot lot earlier. No poor man ever created or imposed a law. No officer of the law ever accounted to the powerless.
I meant to type weak not weal.
posted by bruv
Oh for Pete's sake gmc........proof read before hitting the post button.....that was painful.
You do kmow the K and L are side by side don't you? I do proof read I just don't notice that's why my career as a proof reader never took off.
The legal system, on the other hand, arose out of the wealthy's desire to control the masses and had nothing to do with the common good, it arose completely the other way about and a lot lot earlier. No poor man ever created or imposed a law. No officer of the law ever accounted to the powerless.
True to some extent but the legal system was shaped by people standing up for themselves to defend themselves from the aristocracy that newer groups with neconomic power go on to abuse the sytem for their own benefit - it seems to be human nature. I always think the english civil war is a great example of what happens when you have an angry population that put the powerful on the back foot then invariably the prospects for an equitable society get trampled into the dirt. The putney debates make fascinating reading about what could have been and the same arguments come up time and time again.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
You describe the state of some of the laws after the civil war, but "the legal system" is a great deal more ancient.
The first codified system of English law was written by Alfred the Great around 890. "In his introduction, Alfred explains that he gathered together the laws he found in many "synod-books" and "ordered to be written many of the ones that our forefathers observed—those that pleased me; and many of the ones that did not please me, I rejected with the advice of my councillors, and commanded them to be observed in a different way"."
It would be hard to describe those laws as protection for the common people much less for slaves. If you were wealthy you could, for instance, deliberately kill either category with impunity and then just pay the specified level of blood-money. I expect Scottish law of the same period is comparable, if anyone managed to write it down.
The first codified system of English law was written by Alfred the Great around 890. "In his introduction, Alfred explains that he gathered together the laws he found in many "synod-books" and "ordered to be written many of the ones that our forefathers observed—those that pleased me; and many of the ones that did not please me, I rejected with the advice of my councillors, and commanded them to be observed in a different way"."
It would be hard to describe those laws as protection for the common people much less for slaves. If you were wealthy you could, for instance, deliberately kill either category with impunity and then just pay the specified level of blood-money. I expect Scottish law of the same period is comparable, if anyone managed to write it down.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
You do kmow the K and L are side by side don't you?
OK How do you explain ?
I onl;t like ukip
That's gotta be "I don't like UKIP"........hasn't it ?
OK How do you explain ?
I onl;t like ukip
That's gotta be "I don't like UKIP"........hasn't it ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
We are four nations, but at heart one people
spot;1507581 wrote: You describe the state of some of the laws after the civil war, but "the legal system" is a great deal more ancient.
The first codified system of English law was written by Alfred the Great around 890. "In his introduction, Alfred explains that he gathered together the laws he found in many "synod-books" and "ordered to be written many of the ones that our forefathers observed—those that pleased me; and many of the ones that did not please me, I rejected with the advice of my councillors, and commanded them to be observed in a different way"."
It would be hard to describe those laws as protection for the common people much less for slaves. If you were wealthy you could, for instance, deliberately kill either category with impunity and then just pay the specified level of blood-money. I expect Scottish law of the same period is comparable, if anyone managed to write it down.
That's why I said it was "shaped" by people I made no reference to time scale. Laws are in simplistic terms agreements as to how people should behave towards each other stone age man probably sat down and made agreements with each other as an alternative to warfare.
Speaking of which I see thera May is still not taking the hint.
Theresa May blocks second Scottish independence referendum | The Independent
"It would be unfair to the people of Scotland at the moment that they would be being asked to make a crucial decision without the information they need to make that decision."
She could do with listening to what nicola sturgeon actually said.
The first codified system of English law was written by Alfred the Great around 890. "In his introduction, Alfred explains that he gathered together the laws he found in many "synod-books" and "ordered to be written many of the ones that our forefathers observed—those that pleased me; and many of the ones that did not please me, I rejected with the advice of my councillors, and commanded them to be observed in a different way"."
It would be hard to describe those laws as protection for the common people much less for slaves. If you were wealthy you could, for instance, deliberately kill either category with impunity and then just pay the specified level of blood-money. I expect Scottish law of the same period is comparable, if anyone managed to write it down.
That's why I said it was "shaped" by people I made no reference to time scale. Laws are in simplistic terms agreements as to how people should behave towards each other stone age man probably sat down and made agreements with each other as an alternative to warfare.
Speaking of which I see thera May is still not taking the hint.
Theresa May blocks second Scottish independence referendum | The Independent
"It would be unfair to the people of Scotland at the moment that they would be being asked to make a crucial decision without the information they need to make that decision."
She could do with listening to what nicola sturgeon actually said.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
gmc;1507100 wrote: in 1707 there very much was a different language although time has done away with the differences
Yesterday I saw a strange comment - "there are 55,000 Gaelic speakers in Scotland, 65,000 of whom work for the BBC". I can't recall where or by whom but it has stuck in my memory.
Yesterday I saw a strange comment - "there are 55,000 Gaelic speakers in Scotland, 65,000 of whom work for the BBC". I can't recall where or by whom but it has stuck in my memory.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
We are four nations, but at heart one people
It's actually something like that in total. I'm all in favour of gaelic being encouraged to revive that it still thrives despite centuries of concentrated effort to wipe it out by in the main lowland scots speaks volumes. We have to put up with languager fascists who are trying to insist we should all speak broad scots as the "true" of scotland who seem unable to appreciate that there were many and still are many different dialects of scots. You do need to be able to communicate and that is far more important than any adherence to a dialct. Speak yorkshire in yorkshire just don't expect people in other parts of the country to understand you you need to be able to adapt.