So now the bastards are trying blackmail

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gmc
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Post by gmc »

Scottish independence: Navy frigate contracts will be held after UK split vote - News - Scotsman.com

Tory rag I don't normally read but this is despicable.
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Post by Bruv »

Is this a case of taking our ball back if we can't all play together nicely ?

Or just veiled threats ?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

So does this mean that no new contracts will be awarded until after the referendum? If Scotland gains Independence, then you become ' Johnny Foriegner' ???
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Post by Clodhopper »

Or is the idea that in the current difficult economic climate the contract will be awarded to a UK company, and we don't know if Scotland will be UK?

You can imagine the furore if a UK shipyard closes while a foreign Scottish one is kept open by UK contracts...

I can actually see a reasonable case for delaying the decision. The Northumbian Council considering whether to encourage Scottish drinkers south of the Border to beat the price hike is much nastier, stupider and much more wrong, imo.
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Post by gmc »

Most scots would go for greater devolution rather than independence these kind of attitudes and actions will result in scots voting for independence rather than put up with the childish idiots that think we will. Being told we would be confused unless the question is very clear and that scots don't understand that a vote for independence would mean the break up of the union is the kind of patronising arrogance that pisses us off. We are a separate nation with a distinct culture and history all our own, the legal and educational systems are different as are the general attitudes of the people towards government, by and large we are far more left wing than the English and being told we need permission to rule ourselves is like a red rag to a bull. Not one of the unionist parties is coming out with any reasons why we would be better off remaining in the union it's all along the lines of we couldn't cope.

I actually voted no in the referendum in 1979 - the one with the 40% rule which if applied to the last thirty years of election would have meant none of the parties would have been able to form a government. Even now the coalition has less than 50% support in the last election. I voted no mainly because the prospect of living in a country ruled by a labour party that was run like the mafia was somewhat less than appealing. An independent Scotland with proportional representation is a different ballgame, it's unlikely salmond would remain first minister too many see him as a wee sweetie wifie that can't be trusted - the donald trump affair cost him a lot of credibility as he showed himself to be as corrupt and too willing to kow tow to powerful wealthy people as labour are.



Who most wants independence for Scotland? The English
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Post by Snowfire »

As far as the English apparently in favour of Independence more than the Scottish, I think there is an element of "well, sod 'em. If they want to independence let them have it " I think the attitude would be much different had there been no discussion and far less would have a negative attitude. It's not one I'm in favour with. I'd sooner see a stronger United Kingdom. It doesn't mean any of us are any less "English" or "Scottish" because we are British. We have far more in common than any differences that would divide us
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Post by Clodhopper »

Interesting to see that the issue of what the English think about Scottish devolution has finally surfaced in the Press. I have been aware of the attitude Snowfire mentions for some considerable time and like him I seem to be in a minority who think it is a bad idea.

My Scottish friends support Independence because they both believe it's the only thing that will stop the Scots blaming everything on the English and make them stand on their own two feet. English support for Scottish independence seems to range from that attitude at one end, to several rude words about Scots ending in .... off."

At present, if the referendum were held South of the Border, I reckon you'd be out of the Union faster than you can say Midlothian question.
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Post by Clodhopper »

...thinking about it, opinions expressed may not translate into votes in the ballot box. I'm not sure if a vote down here would expel you. I think it would be pretty close though.

And the Northumbrian stupidity is just the start, imo. It or something like it will be used (understandably) as an excuse for future Scottish nastiness and it will roll on from there, just as one thing led to another before the Union.

Ah well. It's all going to happen. Oh joy.
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Post by Clodhopper »

And while I'm at it, why on earth would Scotland even expect to be considered for a large UK defence contract when we don't know whether you will be part of the Union? That's the sort of thing that makes me think the Scots want to have their cake and eat it and are stupid enough to think it reasonable.

And devo max might be what you want, but the way things are going at present it would be very unpopular south of the border, where the extra money Scotland gets for being Scottish is increasingly resented . I don't think there is anything at all England could do to make Scotland happy and your reaction to the defence contract being delayed is an example why: At present Scotland could not be awarded the contract because of Scotland's uncertain status. So if a decision about the contract were made now, Scotland would not be considered. And you consider this English nastiness rather than simple common sense. If we aren't considering Eire (and no-one suggests we should) why would we consider an indpendent Scotland?

The whole issue of Scottish independence is going to create, or rather is creating, a width and depth of resentment and bitterness down here that simply didn't exist a decade ago. And that's going to hang around whether you stay in the Union or not.

I also gather a lot of Scots are basing their hopes for independence around membership of the EU. I'd check on your welcome before you jump, because there are signs that the Spanish, with separatist movements in Catalonia and the Basque regions, intend to veto a Scottish application. An article about this appeared very briefly on the BBC website after British journos wondered why there were so many Spanish journalists at an SNP press conference. Was taken down after an hour or less and it is assumed down here that it was to avoid irritating the Scots. Pointless if you ask me because we irritate the Scots by existing.
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Post by Snowfire »

"A Spanish veto would undermine claims an independent Scotland could immediately operate as a viable state. Although Alex Salmond insists Scotland would be able to join the EU following a "yes" vote in a referendum, experts maintain membership would not come automatically."

Spain could wield veto over Scotland's EU membership - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

All eyes would be on an independent Scotland operating outside the EU. If they make a success of it we might see an increased clamour for states voting to leave the EU
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Post by Clodhopper »

We'd have to do our best to get them in, because the ultimate nightmare scenario is a failed state north of the Border.
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Post by Snowfire »

They might allay the commonly held fears of structuring an economy outside the EU and succeed, if membership is refused. They'll be forced to at least give it a go. It's not such a far fetched idea. There are non EU economies that aren't entirely backward
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Post by Clodhopper »

They might. There's still quite a lot of oil and the whisky won't run out unless the Spey does. If they leave the Union for positive reasons, they have a good chance of succeeding, imo; but if they are leaving for negative reasons (basically, dislike of England) I think they will fail.

And I am not at all convinced they are leaving for positive reasons. Look at gmc's response to the delay in decision about the Type 26 contracts - the delay allows Scotland to remain in the picture for the contract and my reading of the article led me to believe that the intention was and is to give the contract to them. If the decision was made now, the unclear position of Scotland means they would not be awarded the contract, but the delay leaves them still in the mix. The Scottish reaction?

So now the bastards are trying blackmail


Maybe my concern about the issue is making me shortsighted - do YOU think we can have a decent relationship with people who ALWAYS react to us like that?
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Post by Snowfire »

Clodhopper;1402076 wrote:

do YOU think we can have a decent relationship with people who ALWAYS react to us like that?


Thats probably a question both our societies ought to answer. There are the insular, shortsighted people in both Scotland and England who still harbour this resentment. Us English are quite used to being resented around the world, whether in political terms or just sporting. Scotland are still beside themselves with pride for beating us at football after the '66 world cup. They wont let us forget it, despite results being one sided before and since.

This rivalry will never go away. We will always have the "Culloden v Bannockburn " banter. When push comes to shove, we aint all that different and we get on pretty well. Independence will still mean Scotland are part of the British Army - if my understanding is correct.

I think we should encourage them to go out and earn a living in the big world like our teenage children :yh_rotfl

Lets see if that comment tests gmc's humour :wah:
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Post by Clodhopper »

we aint all that different and we get on pretty well


Generally yes. I'm just back from carrying a sofa to one Scottish friend's house and will probably be helping the other unpack boxes next week (they are divorcing which is very sad). They manage to be proudly Scottish without being anti-English. We even support eachother's Rugby teams!

If Scottish Independence gets the two nations behaving like that - and my Scottish friends seem to think it might - it will be a great success. I just think of Scottish pubs during England games and can't help but feel there's a long way to go.
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Post by gmc »

Instead of having a sensible debate about the issues it has dissolved in to series of childish spats sparked off latterly by Cameron's demanding a referendum sooner rather than later rather making the point for alex salmond that Westminster doesn't actually care too hoots about scotland and just wants us to shut up and accept all te crap they want to dish out. Instead of a detailed considered discussion about the options we have vote for independence and we might think about greater devolution. Trust me I'm a tory just does not work in scotland. We are supposed top have a union yet it seems not all parties are entitled to an opinion on the matter. We have right wing tory MP's that are demanding a referendum on membership of the EU - conveniently forgetting we had one when we joined - yet dead set against the scots having a discussion about staying in a union imposed on them after another banking crisis by a ruling class that didn't give a **** about the people. The welsh and irish were conquered by the English the scots were not you had to buy us off - or rather buy off the ruling elites of the time. We are a distinct nation with very different outlooks on many things and with a separate legal, education systems and even a different religion.

The union really started falling apart the day margaret thatcher inposed the poll tax on scotland as an experiment because she thought we would just put up with it and there was very little said by the english about that particular form of taxation being imposed on the scots. She does the same thing in england and the resulting riots bring her down, so much for union solidarity, if she had only imposed it on the scots no one in england would have cared. As to the myth that the english subsidide the scots that is exactly what it is - a myth. Without the oil revenues the Uk wopuld be properly bankrupt, instead of that money being used to invest in the UK it was used by thatcher to crush the unions and cut the taxes for the already wealthy all in the insane belief that financial services was the new industrial sector and that the UK could survive as a service economy. The tories are shitting themselves because they are more worried about the oil and gas revenues they will lose - whicjh will mean higher taxes to compensate and labout know only too well without the Scottish MP's they will never form a government again. We have seen out=r economy devastated by an uncaring right wing government that the majority in Scotland actively voted against. That the same could be said of the north of england has not escaped our attention.

Scotland does earn it's living in the real world and has always punched well above it's weight in no small part due to a better education system than you have in england - literacy has always been higher in Scotland than England. It contributes more to the exchequer than we receive back if anything we subsidise england, IPerhaps t's not us that need to worry about whether we can survive without the union its he English who need to worry of they can cope without the scots. It's David Cameron and articles like this that are bringing vitriol in to the debate, give us an ultimatum about voting only yes or no and you can't consider other options - such as devo max and the Scots answer is likely to be - if you feel that way about it --- well you can finish the sentence yourself.
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Post by Clodhopper »

It seems that as soon as the word english is mentioned you speak as though we are a single being - the english this, the english that. Load of rubbish. There was little knowledge of what was going on in Scotland and even less of what you thought of it pre internet. And that's what really concerns me about this situation - you are fighting some sort of myth. We bought you out? We bailed you out. Why? Darien went bust and you were too small to take the hit! And wtf has a 300 year old gribble have to to with what we BOTH face in the future?

Ah well. What will be will be. No point fighting about what will happen. We're going to find out soon enough.
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Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1402360 wrote: It seems that as soon as the word english is mentioned you speak as though we are a single being - the english this, the english that. Load of rubbish. There was little knowledge of what was going on in Scotland and even less of what you thought of it pre internet. And that's what really concerns me about this situation - you are fighting some sort of myth. We bought you out? We bailed you out. Why? Darien went bust and you were too small to take the hit! And wtf has a 300 year old gribble have to to with what we BOTH face in the future?

Ah well. What will be will be. No point fighting about what will happen. We're going to find out soon enough.


Of the circa fifty five million (I think that was roughly the amount) that was paid to the scots one of the stipulations was the monies should go to those investors who lost out when the darien expedition failed. In other wirds it was amassive bribe and was of no benefit to the sciottish people. We were bought and sold by our erstwhile leaders and tye bankers - bit like nowadays don't you think?

It 's a bit rich that a tory oarty that intends to hold a referendum on membership on the EU to decide whether we stay in or not and argues that the other members will just have to accept it should lecture us that we cannot opt to end the union without the agreement of the other parties involved. Germany expanded and easst germnany became a member and no one batted an eye lid. If the rules about the criteria to join the EU had been applied greece and portugal would not have been allowed to join and neither would several of the former eastern bloc members. Catalan is also in the process if splitting away from spain ehich is why you have the spanish spreading scare stories that we might mnot be able to join. The simple fact is that generic legal advice siggests there would in reality be little problem with us remaining a member and in practical terms a way would be found. So would I prefer a future in an independent Scotland still a member of the EU or one in a union with england where we have been kicked out of the EU because the other members are pissed off with the British attitude? Frankly o don;t know but one thing for sure politically scots are far more left of centre than the english and it''s really due to thatcher and her ilk that this has taken flight as a serious option. Labour introduced proportional representation because they thought the SNP would never get enough of a vote to have any chance instead the electorate has realised that their vote actually counts under PR and handed rthe SNP a club to beat labour with. It's actually Cameron that has forced this issue on and if we do indeed vote for independence it will be due to the tories and the smug arrogant patronising bastard supposedly in charge.
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Post by gmc »

BBC News - Scottish independence: Lord Robertson says Yes vote 'would be cataclysmic'

Lord Robertson says Yes vote 'would be cataclysmic'


a "Yes" vote in September would threaten the stability of the wider world.


:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
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Post by buttercup »

Hi,

I used to be quite an active member of this forum but not been around for a few years with one thing and another. This afternoon while relaxing sipping a glass of wine I wondered if the referendum was sparking a conversation here in the Garden and indeed if gmc was still here, glad to see both :-)

I was at the SNP conference on Friday and Saturday in Aberdeen, an excellent two days.

Are you YES yet gmc? X
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Post by Snowfire »

buttercup;1451713 wrote: Hi,

I used to be quite an active member of this forum but not been around for a few years with one thing and another. This afternoon while relaxing sipping a glass of wine I wondered if the referendum was sparking a conversation here in the Garden and indeed if gmc was still here, glad to see both :-)

I was at the SNP conference on Friday and Saturday in Aberdeen, an excellent two days.

Are you YES yet gmc? X


Buttercup. I'ts been a long time. (ArnoldLayne)
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Post by buttercup »

ARNOLD !!!!!!

How the hell are you, excellent to see you, how come the change of name?
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Post by Snowfire »

buttercup;1451715 wrote: ARNOLD !!!!!!

How the hell are you, excellent to see you, how come the change of name?


I left for a bit. Then came back. Fresh start.

Nice to see an old face. Well, I don't mean it like that...haha
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Post by LarsMac »

Welcome back. Hope you're not just passin though.
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Post by buttercup »

Oh but your right it is a much older face now Arnold lol

I don't mind in the slightest BECAUSE I am now a Grandparent, how wonderful is that :-)

Now what's all this rubbish I am reading that voting for Independence is Anti - English?
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Post by buttercup »

LarsMac;1451717 wrote: Welcome back. Hope you're not just passin though.


Oh Lars, soooo nice to see you, let's question everything x
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Post by Snowfire »

buttercup;1451718 wrote: Oh but your right it is a much older face now Arnold lol

I don't mind in the slightest BECAUSE I am now a Grandparent, how wonderful is that :-)

Now what's all this rubbish I am reading that voting for Independence is Anti - English?


There are those that can't differentiate the "Nationalist" of the SNP and the BNP and think it means the same thing.

I can see the attraction of independence but I'm hoping for a NO vote. I think we have more in common than what separates us.

I'm yet to be convinced that aside from the obvious allure of separation, it will be entirely successful for a Scottish economy, with doubts about currency and membership of the EU in doubt.
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Post by buttercup »

Well I don't know much about the BNP (remnants of the old National Front rings a bell) is that correct?

I can see how some people would have doubts on currency and membership of the EU, personally they are not concerns of mine or anybody else I know, the more the better together lot talk just now the more people join the Yes campaign.

As an aside I once tried to spend a Scottish tenner in London, shop owner refused it, not recognised tender he said !
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Post by Snowfire »

buttercup;1451723 wrote:

As an aside I once tried to spend a Scottish tenner in London, shop owner refused it, not recognised tender he said !


Even I've tried to spend Scottish notes in England with the same result. It's all money to me. There's no accounting for ignorance
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Post by buttercup »

Something mentioned at conference that's quite interesting, Scottish notes state sterling on them, English notes don't.

Seriously, go ahead and google images.
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Post by gmc »

welcome back buttercup

Are you YES yet gmc? X


When you look at the yes campaign, alastair darling, gordon brown, george robertson given the total cock up they made when in office would you listen to any of them? The more the yes campaign talk, threaten and tell us we can't succeed on our own the more imclined I am to vote yes. They have nothing to say about why we should stay in the union for the future, Labour I think are panicking because they know a yes vote will mean the end of future prospects for a labour government having enough seats without the scots MP's. We are looking at increasingly right wing governments (imo) in the years to come if we stay in the union are you really content to see the nhs privatised schools, the prison service privatised amongst other things? They seem hell bent in undoing all the post war social reforms brought in by socialist governments for no better reason than they are opposed to the concept of a welfare state in principle.

It's interesting to see what the orange lodge have to say about it, I've not had an opportunity to discuss that with anyone mainly because I tend to avoid discussions with knuckle draggers.

British Together Campaign - Home

We all come from yesterday just because we have a past in the union doesn't mean that is still the best option. Apart from that all those forced from the land (and it wasn't just the Highlanders) might have a differebnt view about a union that was not run for the benefit of ordinary people no matter what we have been brainwashed in to believing.

Between 1889 and 1914 Scottish home rule was debated 15 times in Parliament, including the introduction of four bills. In 1913 a Home Rule Bill passed its second reading. World War I then intervened and the idea was dropped but support for home rule had been on the wane in any case, as campaigning for it meant associating with the more outspoken Irish home rule activists. This alienated support within Scotland both for the Liberals and constitutional change.


A hundred years later let's hope war doesn't get in the way. Ukraine what are the odds?
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Post by Bruv »

I find it strange that as the world gets smaller, with fewer multinational companies controlling huge financial institutions across borders, with everybody everywhere driving the same type cars, eating the same branded goods, watching variations of the same TV shows, all linked by the worldwide net for instant information globally, we all want seperate destinies.

Funny things people aint they ?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

buttercup;1451713 wrote: Hi,

I used to be quite an active member of this forum but not been around for a few years with one thing and another. This afternoon while relaxing sipping a glass of wine I wondered if the referendum was sparking a conversation here in the Garden and indeed if gmc was still here, glad to see both :-)

I was at the SNP conference on Friday and Saturday in Aberdeen, an excellent two days.

Are you YES yet gmc? X


Wheee - hello to you :-6

How are you doing?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Snowfire;1451721 wrote: There are those that can't differentiate the "Nationalist" of the SNP and the BNP and think it means the same thing.

I can see the attraction of independence but I'm hoping for a NO vote. I think we have more in common than what separates us.

I'm yet to be convinced that aside from the obvious allure of separation, it will be entirely successful for a Scottish economy, with doubts about currency and membership of the EU in doubt.


I've no doubt that we would be stronger together but the thought of Cameron crowing that he's won makes me want a YES vote.

The "doubts" over the currency and EU membership are such obvious scare tactics / threats brought up purely to manipulate the masses that they deserve the raised finger and a defiant "do your worst".

The way the campaign has been run by Westminster is appalling.
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Post by gmc »

Bruv;1451846 wrote: I find it strange that as the world gets smaller, with fewer multinational companies controlling huge financial institutions across borders, with everybody everywhere driving the same type cars, eating the same branded goods, watching variations of the same TV shows, all linked by the worldwide net for instant information globally, we all want seperate destinies.

Funny things people aint they ?


I prefer to think that with the internet and people able to speak to people all over the world it's rather people are beginning to realise they don't need to put up with all the crap rather than seeking separate destinies it's mote they donl;t have to accept what is being allowed to them.

posted by bryn mawr

The "doubts" over the currency and EU membership are such obvious scare tactics / threats brought up purely to manipulate the masses that they deserve the raised finger and a defiant "do your worst".




On the face of it the scare tactics seem rather to be backfiring.
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Post by Bruv »

gmc;1451995 wrote: I prefer to think that with the internet and people able to speak to people all over the world it's rather people are beginning to realise they don't need to put up with all the crap rather than seeking separate destinies it's mote they donl;t have to accept what is being allowed to them.




Or the internet is the bread and circuses to keep us all happy. It has probably replaced religion as the opium of the people, giving them the impression of having a voice, but in reality being a diversion to keep your eyes on the world scene while they rob you blind just outside your own front door.
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Post by gmc »

Bruv;1451999 wrote: Or the internet is the bread and circuses to keep us all happy. It has probably replaced religion as the opium of the people, giving them the impression of having a voice, but in reality being a diversion to keep your eyes on the world scene while they rob you blind just outside your own front door.


Sadly religion seems to be staging a fightback with ever more desperate attempts to take the moral high ground despite being stuck in the hypocrisy sewers.

David Cameron: 'Jesus invented the Big Society – I'm just continuing God's work' - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

David Cameron: 'Jesus invented the Big Society – I'm just continuing God's work'




Oh dear.
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Post by Bruv »

That is almost funny if it wasn't so serious.

I thought his hero famously said there was no such thing as society.

This sort of line belongs in a Monty Python sketch.........“If there are things that are stopping you from doing more, think of me as a giant Dyno-Rod,” he said.

Do you think he might have aspirations to do stand up when his time comes, Blairs cornered the peace envoy market, so his prospects are limited.
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buttercup
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Post by buttercup »

Bryn Mawr;1451892 wrote:

The way the campaign has been run by Westminster is appalling.


Thanks for saying that Bryn (Lovely to see you again)

The referendum having only two options is scary for many people.

All the unionist parties appeal to us to remain as equal partners within the UK but we are not equal partners and never have been, people know that. The Yes campaign has grown into a movement, a movement that is educating people, people who may have had no interest in politics before.

No country has ever 'willingly' voted against their own Independence, I hope we are not the first.
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1451999 wrote: Or the internet is the bread and circuses to keep us all happy. It has probably replaced religion as the opium of the people, giving them the impression of having a voice, but in reality being a diversion to keep your eyes on the world scene while they rob you blind just outside your own front door.


Exactly.
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1452224 wrote: Exactly.


Do you wanna be in my cult?

I'm testing the viability setting up a parallel commune to my mentor.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1452234 wrote: Do you wanna be in my cult?

I'm testing the viability setting up a parallel commune to my mentor.


I'll be your friend, but I won't be in anyone's "cult". Who's your mentor? Did I miss something?
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1452246 wrote: I'll be your friend, but I won't be in anyone's "cult". Who's your mentor? Did I miss something?


Thank heavens for that.

Have you been away ?
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

buttercup;1452212 wrote: Thanks for saying that Bryn (Lovely to see you again)

The referendum having only two options is scary for many people.

All the unionist parties appeal to us to remain as equal partners within the UK but we are not equal partners and never have been, people know that. The Yes campaign has grown into a movement, a movement that is educating people, people who may have had no interest in politics before.

No country has ever 'willingly' voted against their own Independence, I hope we are not the first.


And wonderful it is to see you gracing the Garden again :-6

Cameron thought that forcing the referendum down to two options was a masterstroke - he knew that Scotland was likely to go for devolution so a straight in or out with all the scare stories he could bring to bear (much like the lies he trotted out in the proportional representation debate) he was sure he could kill the out vote.

As much as I dislike the thought of breaking the union, I hope he gets his political games back tenfold - the manipulation is crass.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1452251 wrote: Thank heavens for that.

Have you been away ?


The religious threads are starting to depress me, or is the word 'annoy'? I can hear oscar, or whatever her name is now, saying "well, then, why don't you................?"

I suppose I have little to say, & overwhelmed with this wedding thing.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

PS--been spending time in the arcade.
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1452285 wrote: The religious threads are starting to depress me, or is the word 'annoy'? I can hear oscar, or whatever her name is now, saying "well, then, why don't you................?"

I suppose I have little to say, & overwhelmed with this wedding thing.
You getting wed ?

Only joking it's your son .....right?
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Right.

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